"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:18:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:13:12 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Many have 10C in winter once the mains pipe is deep enough, which the
main
supply pipe usually is. Only the service legs to the house rise up to
the
lower earth temps. If in constant use the legs should be exhausted of
cool
water.

Mine is 18C coming in right now. I have a thermometer on the pipe.

It should be. The ground is still warm from the summer.

In February/March it can easily be in the 5-8 degree range because the
ground temperature will have fallen significantly through the winter.
It works both ways.

Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

Not quite. The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
we are talking about seasonal effects.

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
is always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could
get a large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
deep as possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

Wouldn't you need two - one for each combi?

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either

Lunatic. Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
out of a job soon.

Shows how out of touch you are Dribble. All those leaflets and you
fail to see the big picture.

Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
their thousands. Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.


--

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

Thought not. Back to the drawing board Dribble


--

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"


170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


So you are guessing as usual.

Apparently not:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf

Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need
mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:21:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need
mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.

Unless I have missed something, the sheds have gravitated (pun
intentional) to sack weights of 25 kg for most products. Strangely, my
local council have started to replace all the 300mm slab /paviors
pavements with the old sizes which are far more likely to lead to
skeleto-muscular problems in the workers. It does strike me as an
extravagant way to get rid of the chewing gum. I wonder how big the bung
was.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

John Rumm wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:10:38 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"


170kg implies 85kg each for two people or 57kg each for three.

I am not sure that the HSE would consider these to be safe lifting
weights


So you are guessing as usual.

Apparently not:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf

Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need
mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.

John you Spoilsport. You're just letting facts spoil Dribble's
argument ;-)

On Planet Zog the gravitational constant is flexible depending on the
level of the flood water and the mains gas pressure, so the HSE have
come to a special arrangement to enable 2 man 170kg lifts to be fully
legal.



--

Matt wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either

Lunatic. Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
out of a job soon.

Shows how out of touch you are Dribble. All those leaflets and you
fail to see the big picture.

Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
their thousands. Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.

Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.


--

Matt wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

I don't. I'm sure it's not at a constant 10 centigrade.

Thought not. Back to the drawing board Dribble


--

Matt wrote:

Apparently not:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.pdf

Even 45kg would be a considered a "two man lift" - so 170kg will need
mechanical lifting if it all comes in one lump.


John you Spoilsport. You're just letting facts spoil Dribble's
argument ;-)

No, you should know that fact never get in the way of a good drivel
dribble...

On Planet Zog the gravitational constant is flexible depending on the
level of the flood water and the mains gas pressure, so the HSE have
come to a special arrangement to enable 2 man 170kg lifts to be fully
legal.

And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
doubt!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article .com,
wrote:
Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.

But then you do this to sell houses - not to live in them.

Tell me, what do you have at home? Do you ever take baths?

--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:30:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

Not quite. The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
we are talking about seasonal effects.

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.

That depth would be very considerable and certainly more than that
used in the UK for mains.


You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.


ROTFL. Do you have any idea of how much storage and hence length
would be needed to achieve that and the flow resistance involved?

32mm MDPE pipe has an inside diameter of 26mm.

To achieve the 300 litres needed to make a difference for your box of
tricks, would involve 300,000 cc. volume

300000/(pi x 2.6^2) = 14126cm of pipe.

Over 140m......


You are joking of course......

Much better to get a proper storage system than to play around with
this nonsense.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.

But then you do this to sell houses - not to live in them.

I have to deliver. It has to work and work well. I don't install B&Q
combis and hope they don't notice.

Tell me, what do you have at home? Do you ever take baths?

I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
pipe.


--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
wrote:
I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
pipe.

You like cold baths?

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:
I have a Gledhill Gulfsteam which is in the loft with the flue through
the roof. It fills baths very well indeed on a 25mm blue water mains
pipe.

Richard Cranium here attempts wit......

You like cold baths?

Yes, that was it folks. More next time.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
is always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could
get a large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
deep as possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

Wouldn't you need two - one for each combi?

Good idea. Two blue pipes from the water meter and two into the house doing
separate functions. Cheap to do. Less influence from one line to the other.
If one is down the other is capped off at the meter and all runs on the one
pipe, and no digging. Buildability.

Richard, you came up with a good idea but never knew it. Sad but true.

"Andy Hall" spluttering through a tastless mussie wrote
in message ...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:30:07 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Depends how deep the mains is, the deeper the warmer.

Not quite. The deeper the less the rate of temperature change. Here
we are talking about seasonal effects.

You are thick at times. I said that once
below a certain depth the temp is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same.

That depth would be very considerable

It is not, about 6 to 8 foot. A JCB can go down 21 foot.

and certainly more than that
used in the UK for mains.

No. The prime main in the street is deeper than that.

You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

ROTFL. Do you have any idea of how much storage and hence length
would be needed to achieve that and the flow resistance involved?

100 metre rolls are available.

32mm MDPE pipe has an inside diameter of 26mm.

yep.

To achieve the 300 litres

300 litres?

needed to make a difference for your box of
tricks, would involve 300,000 cc. volume

Nope. The water from the prime deep main pipe is about 10C all the time.
This coil ensures it stays at 10C. It will also instantly heat water being
in such a long coil surrounded by warm earth.

You are joking of course......

Nope. Many coils have been installed around gardens and used to pre-heat
and coil a house. Constant 10C in summer means you run it through an in-line
copper duct battery. Cooling. In winter the cold air coming in is tempered
by a 10C pre-heat battery. Quite common in the USA and Germany.

snip misguided misinformation

The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.

The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have an
external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.

The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have
an
external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.

Christian.

That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it. Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank ****es all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
the less the throughput. The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput. The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet. Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch. I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
made by Ariston.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see.

The best flowrate I've seen is the Keston Duet. However, it doesn't have
an
external casing to my knowledge, so isn't as pretty.

Christian.

That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it. Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank ****es all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
the less the throughput. The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput. The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet. Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch. I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
made by Ariston.

Even on price the Duet is behind, £2,380.55 inc VAT for the 200 litre
model. Not far off the ACV Heatmaster which is superior all around in
performance, quality, and certainly looks, and no zone valves and by-passes
about as the CH is taken off the integral thermal store. The ACV is not a
compromise as the Duet is.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
doubt!

Good answer. A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

"Matt" the copper industry spammer wrote in
message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

You are real thick at times. He wants a copper coil in there. Such a
spamming saddo.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously.

It is clear that the Duet and the ACV actually provide performance similar
to separate box storage solutions. I'm sure I would have considered the ACV
when I installed my system (WB/DPS Pandora), as its performance is within my
required parameters. At the time, I rejected the Duet, (as I didn't want the
hassle of unvented storage) and the other one box solutions were
insufficiently specified (i.e. Powermax etc.) My requirement was to be able
to fill baths at full mains flow rate, simulataneously with a shower.

My two main concerns with the ACV (had it been available at that time) would
have been:

1. Weight/bulk. It was hard enough getting the Pandora into the loft.
Indeed, it almost got damaged in the process.

2. Unvented cylinder. The unvented capacity is greater than that may be
installed by non-competent persons.

Presumably there is a greater installation and maintenance cost as you need
a certified person?

Christian.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
doubt!

Good answer. A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
environment. In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter" could lead to some very
serious problems - even worse if you bolt it to them as you suggest.

Back to the counter Dribble and sell some more copper tanks.

--

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5
mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously.

It is clear that the Duet and the ACV actually provide performance similar
to separate box storage solutions. I'm sure I would have considered the
ACV
when I installed my system (WB/DPS Pandora), as its performance is within
my
required parameters.

The ACV is a re-work on the proven commercial Heatmasters. Very well thought
out. It is narrower to get through domestic doors.

At the time, I rejected the Duet, (as I didn't want the
hassle of unvented storage) and the other one box solutions were
insufficiently specified (i.e. Powermax etc.) My requirement was to be
able
to fill baths at full mains flow rate, simulataneously with a shower.

My two main concerns with the ACV (had it been available at that time)
would
have been:

1. Weight/bulk. It was hard enough getting the Pandora into the loft.
Indeed, it almost got damaged in the process.

Possible to get it in the loft but a winch would be necessary.

2. Unvented cylinder. The unvented capacity is greater than that may be
installed by non-competent persons.

Presumably there is a greater installation and maintenance cost as you
need
a certified person?

The unvented aspect is the only drawback. I am not keen on unvented
appliances because of the BBA certification and annual service.

I believe someone posted a video here of an unvenetd cylinder exploding.

wrote:


Matt wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either

Lunatic. Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you will be
out of a job soon.

Shows how out of touch you are Dribble. All those leaflets and you
fail to see the big picture.

Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
their thousands. Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.

Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.

Why have you answered? the post was directed at Dr Dribble. You're
not Dribble in disguise are you?

Oh and yes I have the hard facts. In fact the disposal of the heaps of
now redundant instant water heaters has led to questions in the
Japanese Parliament. Fortunately they can see the sense in storage
systems and are buying a huge proportion of copper tank output
worldwide. Sad for the combi manufacturers but true.



--

"Matt" stupidly wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

And due to the variable laws of thermodynamics, can be hoisted into a
loft by the expedient of adding a small hot air balloon on a string no
doubt!

Good answer. A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap.
Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
environment.

domestic.

In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"

You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight. Boy you are
dumb at times..........well all the time.

Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
out of a job soon.

snip drivel

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" the copper industry spammer wrote in
message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the temp
is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as deep
as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

You are real thick at times. He wants a copper coil in there. Such a
spamming saddo.

No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
elsewhere.

The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous
and it patently obvious you haven't thought it out at all. Sad but
true.

Back to the counter Dribble, no leaflet reading today either you
slacker.


--

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it. Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there. They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes. It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank ****es all over others for re-heat. The ACV has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the pressure
the less the throughput. The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput. The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet. Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch. I believe the cylinder in the Duet is
made by Ariston.

In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
to overflowing at 45 deg C.

Back to the counter Dribble

--

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it. Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there.
They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes.
It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank ****es all over others for re-heat. The ACV
has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet
can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the
pressure
the less the throughput. The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput. The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet. Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch. I believe the cylinder in the Duet
is
made by Ariston.

In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
to overflowing at 45 deg C.

You are telling more porkies.

Back to the counter Dribble

Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing. Stand outside and
shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve sales.

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" the copper industry spammer wrote in
message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
temp
is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could
get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
deep
as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

You are real thick at times. He wants a copper coil in there. Such a
spamming saddo.

No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
elsewhere.

The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous

Could it blow up?

snip drivel

"Matt" stupidly wrote in message
...
wrote:

Matt wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:


Matt wrote:

The future's bright the future's copper.

I don't expect any objective comment from you then. ;-)

Nothing wrong with stainless either

Lunatic. Stainless and combis are replacing copper. Hopefully you
will be
out of a job soon.

Shows how out of touch you are Dribble. All those leaflets and you
fail to see the big picture.

Combi's went out with the ark. The Japanese can't get enough of our
copper tanks and the Rinnai's are being carted off for landfill in
their thousands. Storage IS the future, sad for you but true.

Do you have any hard facts? From my viewpoint large storage is on the
way out. For me it's been out for the past 6 years. By trial and error
and having tried to fit water systems in houses over the past 7 years,
believe me, small quick recovery storage and instant water heating all
in one case is certainly the future. Rinnais are selling very well, I
have just ordered one, and Andrews and others rebadge them.

Why have you answered? the post was directed at

It is an open forum, otherwise take it off line.

Oh and yes I have the hard facts. In fact the disposal of the heaps of
now redundant instant water heaters has led to questions in the
Japanese Parliament.

The Japanses are a throw away society. We are pretty well the same. Combis
are so cheap if any major problems at times it is cheaper to replace, the
same with washing machines, dishwashers, etc. You never knew that did you.

You were asked for hard facts. So far none.

Fortunately they can see the sense in storage
systems and are buying a huge proportion of copper tank output
worldwide. Sad for the combi manufacturers but true.

You made that up. You are a maker upperer.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .

A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
environment.

domestic.

If you even try arguing that with the HSE and you will fall flat on
your face.

In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"

You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.

Yes of course you do. First you have an illegal chain winch and now
you are drinking on the job.

Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
out of a job soon.

Dribble Drivel as usual, combi sales are plummeting but when you are
still leaflet reading I will be retired. rich and getting richer by
the second. Now get back to that counter, 18 minutes to lunch and then
a hard afternoon selling copper tanks to the hoardes at your doors.

The future's bright, the future's copper


--

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Good answer. A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a
large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" the copper industry spammer wrote in
message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

You are thick at times. I said that once below a certain depth the
temp
is
always the same. "No" seasonal changes, always the same. You could
get a
large coil of 32mm MDPE pipe, take it off the mains and bury it as
deep
as
possible in the garden. Constant mains temp all the time.

No it isn't. Do you know the consequences of "bury it as deep as
possible in the garden" are ?

Do you know at what temperature the MDPE will fail?

You are real thick at times. He wants a copper coil in there. Such a
spamming saddo.

No one said anything of the sort and copper is far better employed
elsewhere.

The implications of what you originally posted could be very dangerous

Could it blow up?

No, it is clear you are just guessing and there are no more clues. So
back to the counter Dribble.

The answers you'd need to address the problem won't be found in any
leaflet so you'll really struggle and at this stage in your treatment
they say its not good for you. But keep taking the tablets and you
might be allowed out in a few years.


--

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:32:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel
wrote:

Back to the counter Dribble

Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing. Stand outside
and
shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve
sales.

The price of copper is rising steadily, as is the demand. China is
developing an insatiable appetite for copper. In fact, the "copper"
coinage in the UK is no longer solid copper, as its scrap value exceeds
its monetary value. It is a sandwich of steel in copper. Try a magnet. The
uses zinc as a sandwich filling in its "copper" pennies. The only way the
copper industry is failing is not keeping up with demand. Which village do
you come from? They must be sorely missing their idiot.

John Schmitt

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

That is two separate items slapped into one frame. I believe you have to
assemble it. Not the same as in a ready made box, but getting there.
They
could have at least put a case around it and made it into a full one box
solution; bad marketing. The Duet can't deliver 380 litres in 10 minutes.
It
has 200 litres maximum.

We all get carried away with litres/min, when other times are more
relevant
to the application, like 10 mins. You could get 42 litres/min for 5 mins,
but that will not fill two baths simultaneously. ACV is a class above
Keston, and the tank-in-tank ****es all over others for re-heat. The ACV
has
an 80 litres unvented cylinder store, which can up to 10 bar, the Duet
can't
go that high. The Keston is reduced to about 3 bar and the less the
pressure
the less the throughput. The ACV has no restriction, so a greater
throughput. The first 80 to 100 litres from the ACV will be equiv to the
Duet. Keston is equiv. to W-Bosch. I believe the cylinder in the Duet
is
made by Ariston.

In less time than it took you to write that Drivel my bath was filled
to overflowing at 45 deg C.

You are telling more porkies.

Back to the counter Dribble

Yes you must sell more copper as the industry is failing. Stand outside and
shout "get your copper 'ere, get your copper 'ere". That may improve sales.

It is selling faster than it can be produced. Stock in hand has never
been lower, but a few more sales never did anyone any harm. So stop
Dribbling and get selling Drivel.


--

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"

You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.

What are you smoking now?

Boy you are dumb at times..........well all the time.

Please explain how 'you run a bar through a number of rafters'?

You intend drilling large holes in structural timbers? And just how do you
thread this presumably rigid bar through them? Remove the end wall?

So as well as flooding the basement with your plumbing, you're now
attacking the top of the house?

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

John Rumm wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Good answer. A look on Ebay will tell you chain winch is very cheap. Bolt
to the rafers and pull up. Boy some people here are dumb.

Apparently so.... they might end up with a landing full of tiles and a
large hole in the roof if they follow that advice!

That just makes the job easier ;-) Tie a rope to the 170kg lump, throw
rope over roof. One bloke climbs ladder with 170kg lump on his back
while another two pull on rope on other side of house. When 170kg lump
reaches hole in roof drop through the convenient hole.

At this point the 170kg lump may fall through the ceiling but that's a
minor problem.


--

"Matt" who spams a lot on this news group
wrote in message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Matt" wrote in message
.. .

A closer look at the legislation may make you realise you can't just
buy any old chain winch off ebay and deploy it in a commercial
environment.

domestic.

If you even try arguing that with the HSE and you will fall flat on
your face.

In addition the application of a point load of 170kg
plus the weight of a chain winch to a "rafter"

You run a bar through a number of rafers to spead the weight.

Yes of course you do.

Good. You are learning.

Combis, stainless stell and plastic pipes are taking over and you will be
out of a job soon.

Dribble

No you will be out of a job. How does anyone ever employ you anyhow?