On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:19:03 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm


Gunner, except for stuff that must support your weight, the rule in boats
and airplanes is about the same as in motor homes... Cabinets should have
light frames with THIN skins!

Most of what you build in there should be skinned with 5mm stuff. Cheaper,
too.

LLoyd

Ayup. And 4mm is 50 a sheet. Which is a bit odd..but you arent
paying for the wood as much as the glue and processing.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 04:52:38 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:00:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Baltic Birch is bitchen, boy.

Its also expensive as hell here in California. Almost double the
price of marine plywood.

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm

I can get 1/2" Marine for $32

Wow! I'm paying $25 for 5x5' sheets of 1/2"/~12mm, $20 on sale. (bad
enough) I'd look around a bit more for a better price if I were you.
It should be had for less in HelL.A. Try hardwood stores as well as
lumber yards. Home Improvement stores tend to price it horribly.

I used some plain 3/4" birch ply for a closet shelf in an upper end
home last month. HD had it for $46 a sheet and it was pretty decent.
9-ply Baltic (or Russian or Finnish) is better, though.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On 12/4/2013 8:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 04:52:38 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:00:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Baltic Birch is bitchen, boy.

Its also expensive as hell here in California. Almost double the
price of marine plywood.

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm

I can get 1/2" Marine for $32

Wow! I'm paying $25 for 5x5' sheets of 1/2"/~12mm, $20 on sale. (bad
enough) I'd look around a bit more for a better price if I were you.
It should be had for less in HelL.A. Try hardwood stores as well as
lumber yards. Home Improvement stores tend to price it horribly.

I used some plain 3/4" birch ply for a closet shelf in an upper end
home last month. HD had it for $46 a sheet and it was pretty decent.
9-ply Baltic (or Russian or Finnish) is better, though.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.


What I've seen of the plywood and Home Depot and Lowes, I wouldn't use
it to build a shelf at home, much less anything on a boat!

Look, a MUCH better building material for marine use is - Fiberglass!
But it doesn't much lend it shelf to cheap construction.

Well, I've mentioned it before, but again...
I sold the Capri 26 late this summer and I stepped down as
fleet commodore.

WE loved sailing that boat on Texoma, where we could sail for
four to six hours before tacking!

But I had some serious health scares about the end of summer,
and was worried that if I passed, my wife would be stuck with an
expensive toy that she couldn't sail comfortably solo.

She learned to sail on our first boat, a Capri 18 named Spirit.
So we started looking for a smaller boat. And she really likes
Capris. So do I for that matter. We are looking for a Capri 22
or maybe even another 18. (That is still the handiest keel boat
I've ever sailed!) Not terribly fast in outright speed. There is
only so much you can get from a 16 foot water line length. But
we raced it (PHRA handicap) and finished well above the middle
of the fleet each year.


(The Cat 22 swing keels are FAST!!)

OH Lord, give me patience.
Because if you give me strength, I just might use it wrong!

No, grasshopper, that's not "fast".
Not even from just a speed perspective.


Oddly enough..the guys here in California have been snagging the swing
keeled C22s because they are indeed..faster than even the Capris.
Fact. But its your cash..not mine.


Only downwind, guns, ONLY downwind...
And as I said, any tub can sail downwind.
And MOTOR back!

Pass.

Trailerable, yes. 3500 to 4000 pounds tow weight.

Because any more than that and the boat usually doesn't travel much.

Like the guys who say they want to keep the boat on a trailer at home -
it doesn't get sailed much. We kept our Capri 18 in a slip year round
just because we could go jump on the boat and be under sail in 10
minutes. But as always, other people have other ideas...


But high performance to windward. Because any old tub can go downwind!
That means a proper keel under the boat.

Google up some pictures of a wing keel.

This arrangement adds an "end plate" to a fairly short low-aspect ratio
keel.

It also puts a lot of lead ( a dense heavy fairly soft METAL ) way
down low, so the same righting moment actually weighs less.
Less weight means less surface area in the water and less drag.


But a deep fin will still point higher (sail closer to the apparent
wind). Even in California.


Able to walk the mast up and down solo.
The Capri 22 is marginal there, but an A-frame system would solve that.
I could walk a 25 foot mast up without it (in my exuberant youth).

Im pondering a A frame after rigging the V24 the first time.


Again, google is your friend. look for "mast raising systems".

On 12/4/2013 1:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600,
wrote:

Something to think about, Gunner.
Adding "cabinetry" to a very light boat like the Venture is something I
would not do. And I LOVE making things for my boats.

I say that because it adds dead weight to the boat,
takes up interior space, and _can_ turn out to be
more in the way that useful.

Go slow and minimal for best results.

Marine plywood may not be necessary.
I've used a lot of baltic birch with good results
BECAUSE I use the West System system.
Three coats of resin to completely seal the wood.

It's not an extra expense for cheap wood because you really
need to do the same treatment to marine plywood too to keep
it from wicking up water.

But whichever wood you use, I strongly recommend that there
be no exposed end grain plywood. At bare minimum seal the
ends with epoxy. Better yet is to add solid wood stoppers
(also sealed with epoxy )

Well anyway...

At least you are right-side-up in both of them.


I'm still looking for a Capri 22.
Looks like that's going to be a bit more expensive.

Ask and yee shall receive....

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/4222627960.html

Hows that for service?

Gunner


Gun-Ner!!@&*

San Francisco is not exactly in trailer range - for a boat
with no trailer.

Try A-Gin.

On 12/4/2013 11:19 AM, no spam wrote:

How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Well, that's pretty much true of older or poorly maintained boats.
But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the hinge is loose (worn) or there is slop between keel board and
the trunk it retracts into, it will bang around, wobble some, and maybe
have a tack (side) that it sails better than the other.

The pennant (cable that raises and lowers the keel) will sing sweetly at
any speed. But that's pure unadulterated drag.

Loading heavily enough to get the hinge pin under water can sink a boat.

And the slot for the trunk is not exactly what we call a streamlined
shape...

Another thing is that swing keels are usually cast iron - not lead.
With all the issues that come with iron in salt water.

And the trunk takes up a lot of room in the cabin - right where the
floor could be.

But - some people still like the idea...

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:19:49 -0800, no spam wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 23:56:14 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600, Richard
wrote:


I'm still looking for a Capri 22.
Looks like that's going to be a bit more expensive.

http://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/4226956341.html
Catalina Capri 25 sailboat - $4900 (Sarasota)
image 1image 2image 3image 4image 5image 6image 7image 8image 9
1984 Catalina Capri 25, serial 413. Fixed keel, 4ft draft
Recent Hood Seafurl-5 roller furling, forestay and life lines.
2003 Tohatsu 9.9hp outboard runs great.
Standard mainsail, 155 genoa, & spinnaker. All canvas in good
condition.
Spinnaker, pole, and lines rarely used. Additional whisker pole.
Bottom paint job 2 years old, maintained and cleaned by professional
diver.
Compass and depth gage. Nav and mast lights. Porta-potty.
Sailing regularly in Sarasota Bay.

Location: Sarasota
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other
commercial interests


How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Swing keels work very well..if they are designed properly. They
seldom leak, but maintainence of the swing keel bolt does need to be
done every 5-10 yrs. Which at worst takes about an hour or two.
Simply put a jack under the swing keel and brace the keel, unscrew the
nut and remove the bolt, look in the hole with a flash light to see
how oval the bronze/brass liner has gotten to be...replace the nut and
bolt along with new seals and add a bit of 5200 sealant, tighten and
your back in business. If the boat has been used heavily for 30 or so
years..one simply drops the 100-1000 lb keel, sandblasts and reglasses
it, replace the bronze or brass bushing, lifts it back into place,
installs a new nut and bolt, new seals and you are back in business
again. The cable used to lift and lower the keel should be replaced
every 5-10 yrs if used in salt water and about double that if used in
fresh water.

From another group...

If your boat is to be craned in and out (lifted by straps to the water
and then back to its cradle), a fixed keel will offer a bit better
performance. If you must launch the boat from a ramp with a trailer,
the swing-keel is the lone practical hull configuration of the two.
Check with the yard to find out how boats are launched/recovered, then
you'll know.
****

Swing Keel vs Fixed
The problem with swing keels, vs center board boats, is all the
ballast is in that big swinging plate with a swing keel. In a
knockdown, the board can swing back up and the boat will no longer
have positive stability. The could leave you with the mast pointing
down and the part of your boat that should never see the sun blinded
by the light. Multiple deaths from a swing keeler that turned turtle
in San Diego Bay last year.

Center board boats have smallish keel and a largely unweighted board.
The board does not act as ballast. When it's down, it adds additional
resistance to sideways motion for better windward performance.

Keel boats come in all sorts of configuations and keel depths. Racing
boats will have a deeper, shorter keel. More cruising oriented boats
will tend to have shallower, longer keels. The deeper the keel, the
more resistance to healing and better able to stand up to more sail
area in stronger winds. A blessing for the racer, not so much so for
the cruiser.

What really will determine what you need is the launch ramps in your
area. If they get deep quickly, full keel boats are easy to launch
with an extendable tongue or even a rope to get the boat and trailer
into deeper water. If the launch ramps are shallow, you'll be forced
to go with a shallow draft fixed keel, centerboarder, or swing keel.
That is if there are no lifts in your area. Most of the Yacht clubs on
the Alameda Estuary have simple permanent cranes for launching keel
boats up to around 30' length and 6' plus draft. The boats are built
with a lift ring so it's just a matter of hooking to the crane,
hoisting the boat out, and swingine it onto it's trailer.
****

There are two big advantages of swing keel boats.
1. They are easy to trailer and launch
2. They are usable in lakes

The two negatives of swing keel boats
1. They have their ballast in a moving chunk of steel
2. They need some maintainence in the swing keel now and then

They arent "Quite"as good up wind as full keel boats..depending on the
design of the full keel.....that being said..a good swing keel will
sail better than a poorly designed fixed keel

http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_se...keeldesign.php

There are a number of boats out there that have full LIFTING
keels..that lift a decent sized (and ballasted) keel designed like a
fixed keel boat using a winch..and those are quite good..but they tend
to be found on boats 30' or longer simply because they take room away
from the cabin. When you lift 4-8' of keel..it has to go in the
cabin..somewhere....

Side photos of boats with swing keels on trailer....

http://triadtrailers.com/triad-trail...t/catalina-22/

http://blaine-wa.americanlisted.com/..._22141425.html

Notice that they sit low on the trailer? The first one..still has
12" of keel below the boat even when trailered..and on many lakes in
light air (wind)..thats all you really need..that 12" sticking out.
So you can go into very shallow water. Both of my current boats have
10-12" of keel hanging below the boat when retracted so I can gunkhole
(play in shallow water) easily and still sail into the wind with some
sucess.

Fixed keel boats on trailer...

The first below..is the same boat as #1 above...just a fixed keel
version

http://www.pbase.com/sinnettc/image/100839405/large.jpg

http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/arEa/...032-44289.html

http://www.sailingtexas.com/piccatalina30va.jpg

This one...is a ballasted short keel with a swing
centerboard..probably the best for both worlds..assuming you are not a
racer

http://s174.photobucket.com/user/ewa...00048.jpg.html

they packed 1680 lbs (on that boat) in the two sides of that
centerboard housing for ballast..which works fine when you are shallow
and keeps the boat stable even in deep water..and the
centerboard/swing keel provides sideways resistance.

The most common issues with swing keel boats..is going out in salt
water..cranking the keel down..and it doesnt move. Or having it down
and at the end of the season..cranking it up..and it only comes up
part way. Barnacles and similar sea life have made the housing in the
bottom of the boat home..and have lodged that 600-1500 lb chunk of
iron in place. That seldom if ever happens in fresh water...and since
most guys trailer to fresh water, sail for the day or a week..and then
trailer back up and go home..its really a swing keel world..fresh
water. Lake sailing. Great Lakes excepted..as they are inland
freshwater seas.

Now racing...having a well designed light boat with lots of sail and a
well designed fixed keel...they point higher into the wind by several
degrees than do most (not all) swing keel boats. The C22 swing keel
I posted first..has the reputation of being every bit as fast as the
fixed keel version..and one doesnt need a crane to put in the water
and to put it back on the trailer at the end of the day.

Cruisers..people who go places... like across the ocean...have
different needs and construction is much different than racers of
course. They need a boat that is tough enough and heavy enough to hit
the high seas in the worst weather and come to land on the far side
safely.

Us lake sailers...light boats, swing keels, a good trailer, a cooler
full of sodas and brauts..a good breeze and we are happy.

Gunner




--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:19:03 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm


Gunner, except for stuff that must support your weight, the rule in boats
and airplanes is about the same as in motor homes... Cabinets should have
light frames with THIN skins!

Most of what you build in there should be skinned with 5mm stuff. Cheaper,
too.

LLoyd

Ayup. And 4mm is 50 a sheet. Which is a bit odd..but you arent
paying for the wood as much as the glue and processing.


I picked up a couple dozen 4'x8' sheets of Lauan plywood from a local
company that repairs large truck & trailer bodies. They get roll up
doors & parts bolted to them, but there is a lot of good clear lumber
left for my projects. I picked it up for free, and someone else paid for
the gasoline.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:44:31 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 8:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 04:52:38 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:00:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Baltic Birch is bitchen, boy.

Its also expensive as hell here in California. Almost double the
price of marine plywood.

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm

I can get 1/2" Marine for $32

Wow! I'm paying $25 for 5x5' sheets of 1/2"/~12mm, $20 on sale. (bad
enough) I'd look around a bit more for a better price if I were you.
It should be had for less in HelL.A. Try hardwood stores as well as
lumber yards. Home Improvement stores tend to price it horribly.

I used some plain 3/4" birch ply for a closet shelf in an upper end
home last month. HD had it for $46 a sheet and it was pretty decent.
9-ply Baltic (or Russian or Finnish) is better, though.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.


What I've seen of the plywood and Home Depot and Lowes, I wouldn't use
it to build a shelf at home, much less anything on a boat!

Look, a MUCH better building material for marine use is - Fiberglass!
But it doesn't much lend it shelf to cheap construction.

Materials can be cheap...its those pesky molds and things they are
made from that can get expensive.....


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:09:10 -0600, Richard
wrote:

Well, I've mentioned it before, but again...
I sold the Capri 26 late this summer and I stepped down as
fleet commodore.

I missed that. Sorry.

WE loved sailing that boat on Texoma, where we could sail for
four to six hours before tacking!

But I had some serious health scares about the end of summer,
and was worried that if I passed, my wife would be stuck with an
expensive toy that she couldn't sail comfortably solo.

She learned to sail on our first boat, a Capri 18 named Spirit.
So we started looking for a smaller boat. And she really likes
Capris. So do I for that matter. We are looking for a Capri 22
or maybe even another 18. (That is still the handiest keel boat
I've ever sailed!) Not terribly fast in outright speed. There is
only so much you can get from a 16 foot water line length. But
we raced it (PHRA handicap) and finished well above the middle
of the fleet each year.

One of the fastest small boats..is the Venture 17..yes..it is.


(The Cat 22 swing keels are FAST!!)

OH Lord, give me patience.
Because if you give me strength, I just might use it wrong!

No, grasshopper, that's not "fast".
Not even from just a speed perspective.


Oddly enough..the guys here in California have been snagging the swing
keeled C22s because they are indeed..faster than even the Capris.
Fact. But its your cash..not mine.


Only downwind, guns, ONLY downwind...
And as I said, any tub can sail downwind.
And MOTOR back!

Sorry pal..your bias is getting in the way of your knowledge base
again. Its quite true what I wrote.

Pass.

Trailerable, yes. 3500 to 4000 pounds tow weight.

Because any more than that and the boat usually doesn't travel much.

Ayup.

Like the guys who say they want to keep the boat on a trailer at home -
it doesn't get sailed much. We kept our Capri 18 in a slip year round
just because we could go jump on the boat and be under sail in 10
minutes. But as always, other people have other ideas...

Ayup.


But high performance to windward. Because any old tub can go downwind!
That means a proper keel under the boat.

Google up some pictures of a wing keel.

Im very aware of what they are. I was winning races in the mid 1980s.

This arrangement adds an "end plate" to a fairly short low-aspect ratio
keel.

It also puts a lot of lead ( a dense heavy fairly soft METAL ) way
down low, so the same righting moment actually weighs less.
Less weight means less surface area in the water and less drag.

Ayup

But a deep fin will still point higher (sail closer to the apparent
wind). Even in California.

Sometimes. And sometimes a faster boat will simply sail wider and
still clean your clock. Dont forget..Ive been racing since the mid
80s..and my last racer was a Thistle. So I do know a tinsey winsey
bit about sailing etc etc. A smideon.


Able to walk the mast up and down solo.
The Capri 22 is marginal there, but an A-frame system would solve that.
I could walk a 25 foot mast up without it (in my exuberant youth).

Im pondering a A frame after rigging the V24 the first time.


Again, google is your friend. look for "mast raising systems".

Oh Im a member of a number of the Yahoo boating groups...I ve got
about 5 different "prints and pics" and Ill get around to building
something up before long. I just finished the E20..and thats easy to
hoist..even with the HEAVY 25' mast. On the V24..if the cabin wasnt
so tall..it would be easy too..but finding purchase to get up on the
cabin top..thats an issue. Its not the weight...it requires me to be
as agile as a monkey..and after 2 back surgeries..Im not as limber as
I used to be. So Im gonna cheat and build something to help.
I singlehand a lot..so I need something to help a tad.

Gunner


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:11:04 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 1:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600,
wrote:

Something to think about, Gunner.
Adding "cabinetry" to a very light boat like the Venture is something I
would not do. And I LOVE making things for my boats.

I say that because it adds dead weight to the boat,
takes up interior space, and _can_ turn out to be
more in the way that useful.

Go slow and minimal for best results.

Marine plywood may not be necessary.
I've used a lot of baltic birch with good results
BECAUSE I use the West System system.
Three coats of resin to completely seal the wood.

It's not an extra expense for cheap wood because you really
need to do the same treatment to marine plywood too to keep
it from wicking up water.

But whichever wood you use, I strongly recommend that there
be no exposed end grain plywood. At bare minimum seal the
ends with epoxy. Better yet is to add solid wood stoppers
(also sealed with epoxy )

Well anyway...

At least you are right-side-up in both of them.


I'm still looking for a Capri 22.
Looks like that's going to be a bit more expensive.

Ask and yee shall receive....

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/4222627960.html

Hows that for service?

Gunner


Gun-Ner!!@&*

San Francisco is not exactly in trailer range - for a boat
with no trailer.

Try A-Gin.

Sign up on the Free Saiboat group..find a $500 trailer and come and
get the damned thing.

You getting mighty picky when I find you a decent boat aintcha?

Damned young puppies want the moon and the stars! Spit...shuckens!

As you said..there are only 1500 of them in the entire
HewNItedStats...so ya strike while the iron is hott!!

And dont wait too long before calling the guy..it aint winter out
here..so someone will snag that pretty quick.

Hell..buy the boat and we can store it here until you can come get it.
Ill go get it for a hundred bucks to cover the gas. Or pay the slip
fees until you can come get it.

Know any truckers deadheading a flat bed back to Texas? Talk to a
broker. But buy that sucker! You wont forgive yourself if you dont.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:21:35 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 11:19 AM, no spam wrote:

How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Well, that's pretty much true of older or poorly maintained boats.
But it doesn't have to be that way.

True indeed.

If the hinge is loose (worn) or there is slop between keel board and
the trunk it retracts into, it will bang around, wobble some, and maybe
have a tack (side) that it sails better than the other.

Ayup. Big " if" though.

The pennant (cable that raises and lowers the keel) will sing sweetly at
any speed. But that's pure unadulterated drag.

Not much..and the singing is the speedometer.

Loading heavily enough to get the hinge pin under water can sink a boat.

Mine is always below the water line. On both boats.

And the slot for the trunk is not exactly what we call a streamlined
shape...

But its not drag..only a little turbulance.

Another thing is that swing keels are usually cast iron - not lead.
With all the issues that come with iron in salt water.
Lots of salt water in Texas lakes is there?

And the trunk takes up a lot of room in the cabin - right where the
floor could be.

In the E20..its 6", in the V24..its 4" 5" wide on the E20...3" on
the V24

But - some people still like the idea...

Hard to sail a full keel on a lake. Really hard in most lakes. There
is shoal draft...but...thats like not having my swing keels down.

No cranes to unload the boats here either....we back the trailers into
the water and float em off. And never get the vehicle wet.


Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:38:00 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Multiple deaths from a swing keeler that turned turtle
in San Diego Bay last year.


They went out on a boat with the keel UP..and had 18 people on a 24'
boat as I recall.

Bunch of drunk kids....

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:43:14 -0800, Mikie wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:21:35 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 11:19 AM, no spam wrote:

How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Well, that's pretty much true of older or poorly maintained boats.
But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the hinge is loose (worn) or there is slop between keel board and
the trunk it retracts into, it will bang around, wobble some, and maybe
have a tack (side) that it sails better than the other.

The pennant (cable that raises and lowers the keel) will sing sweetly at
any speed. But that's pure unadulterated drag.

Loading heavily enough to get the hinge pin under water can sink a boat.

And the slot for the trunk is not exactly what we call a streamlined
shape...

Another thing is that swing keels are usually cast iron - not lead.
With all the issues that come with iron in salt water.

And the trunk takes up a lot of room in the cabin - right where the
floor could be.

But - some people still like the idea...


I had an 18 foot sailboat with a swing keel 2'x4' 1/2inch steel plate if
memory serves - that was nothing but a pain also. If any growth gets
either into the trunk or box etc. then you have a 'conservation of space'
problem (Only one object can occupy any given space at any given time.)

Have a fixed keel and lift (with a crane) in and out of the water from a
trailer - is the only way to go IMHO.

And if there is no lake suitable for a long fixed keel and no
crane...one simply doesnt bother with the sport. Right?

Now about that growth on freshwater boats..that would be..what? Alge?

Hummm?

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On 12/4/2013 1:22 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:44:31 -0600,
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 8:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 04:52:38 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:00:33 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Baltic Birch is bitchen, boy.

Its also expensive as hell here in California. Almost double the
price of marine plywood.

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm

I can get 1/2" Marine for $32

Wow! I'm paying $25 for 5x5' sheets of 1/2"/~12mm, $20 on sale. (bad
enough) I'd look around a bit more for a better price if I were you.
It should be had for less in HelL.A. Try hardwood stores as well as
lumber yards. Home Improvement stores tend to price it horribly.

I used some plain 3/4" birch ply for a closet shelf in an upper end
home last month. HD had it for $46 a sheet and it was pretty decent.
9-ply Baltic (or Russian or Finnish) is better, though.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.


What I've seen of the plywood and Home Depot and Lowes, I wouldn't use
it to build a shelf at home, much less anything on a boat!

Look, a MUCH better building material for marine use is - Fiberglass!
But it doesn't much lend it shelf to cheap construction.

Materials can be cheap...its those pesky molds and things they are
made from that can get expensive.....



Not necessarily.
Not for one-off work and small production runs.

For instance...
(my most popular Instructible!)
http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...erglass-parts/

I make my own flat glass on a piece of waxed formica.

Coat almost ANYTHING with white glue for a mold release.

Plastic wrapping tape works well, as does duct tape.

And any shape that will allow a "peel" somewhere will work.

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.
Come out on the race course.

The fastest boat I've seem personally is a Melges 24 named
Rocket Science. I've seen her doing better than 20 knots
on a a reach.

I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association
for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in
1975.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".

On 12/4/2013 1:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:11:04 -0600,
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 1:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600,
wrote:

Something to think about, Gunner.
Adding "cabinetry" to a very light boat like the Venture is something I
would not do. And I LOVE making things for my boats.

I say that because it adds dead weight to the boat,
takes up interior space, and _can_ turn out to be
more in the way that useful.

Go slow and minimal for best results.

Marine plywood may not be necessary.
I've used a lot of baltic birch with good results
BECAUSE I use the West System system.
Three coats of resin to completely seal the wood.

It's not an extra expense for cheap wood because you really
need to do the same treatment to marine plywood too to keep
it from wicking up water.

But whichever wood you use, I strongly recommend that there
be no exposed end grain plywood. At bare minimum seal the
ends with epoxy. Better yet is to add solid wood stoppers
(also sealed with epoxy )

Well anyway...

At least you are right-side-up in both of them.


I'm still looking for a Capri 22.
Looks like that's going to be a bit more expensive.

Ask and yee shall receive....

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/4222627960.html

Hows that for service?

Gunner


Gun-Ner!!@&*

San Francisco is not exactly in trailer range - for a boat
with no trailer.

Try A-Gin.

Sign up on the Free Saiboat group..find a $500 trailer and come and
get the damned thing.

You getting mighty picky when I find you a decent boat aintcha?

Damned young puppies want the moon and the stars! Spit...shuckens!

As you said..there are only 1500 of them in the entire
HewNItedStats...so ya strike while the iron is hott!!

And dont wait too long before calling the guy..it aint winter out
here..so someone will snag that pretty quick.

Hell..buy the boat and we can store it here until you can come get it.
Ill go get it for a hundred bucks to cover the gas. Or pay the slip
fees until you can come get it.

Know any truckers deadheading a flat bed back to Texas? Talk to a
broker. But buy that sucker! You wont forgive yourself if you dont.

Gunner


In poker, it's called a "call".


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

On 12/4/2013 6:46 PM, Richard wrote:
..

In poker, it's called a "call".


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

NADA says average retail is $2090. Just for reference.

So for a thousand more, we don't want to see stress cracks in the glass!
Corners of the cockpit floor are typical places where that happens.

Any cracks in the combing are a deal breaker.
As would be any soft spots in the decks.
These boats have plywood cores in the decks, and a soft spot meant rot.
I have a cleaver way of fixing that on a beater.
But I don't WANT a beater...

I wouldn't expect much gloss from the gel coat.
That's not a deal breaker because gel coat can always be brought back to
mirror finish (if there is any left and it hasn't been painted)

The Honda 6 is plenty for that boat.

Can't expect much from the sails at that price.
A good new suit would cost more than the boat.

On 12/4/2013 3:21 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:43:14 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:21:35 -0600,
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 11:19 AM, no spam wrote:

How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Well, that's pretty much true of older or poorly maintained boats.
But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the hinge is loose (worn) or there is slop between keel board and
the trunk it retracts into, it will bang around, wobble some, and maybe
have a tack (side) that it sails better than the other.

The pennant (cable that raises and lowers the keel) will sing sweetly at
any speed. But that's pure unadulterated drag.

Loading heavily enough to get the hinge pin under water can sink a boat.

And the slot for the trunk is not exactly what we call a streamlined
shape...

Another thing is that swing keels are usually cast iron - not lead.
With all the issues that come with iron in salt water.

And the trunk takes up a lot of room in the cabin - right where the
floor could be.

But - some people still like the idea...


I had an 18 foot sailboat with a swing keel 2'x4' 1/2inch steel plate if
memory serves - that was nothing but a pain also. If any growth gets
either into the trunk or box etc. then you have a 'conservation of space'
problem (Only one object can occupy any given space at any given time.)

Have a fixed keel and lift (with a crane) in and out of the water from a
trailer - is the only way to go IMHO.

And if there is no lake suitable for a long fixed keel and no
crane...one simply doesnt bother with the sport. Right?

Now about that growth on freshwater boats..that would be..what? Alge?

Hummm?

Gunner


And mussels.
Zebra mussels have invaded quite a lot of the fresh water systems.
Messes up water purification plants as well as centerboard trunks.

I thought you knew all this **** already!?!?

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:40:56 PM UTC-8, Richard wrote:

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.

What Mark Wieber start typing the bull**** begins.


I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association

for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in

1975.

Real world experience where as per usual it looks to me like Mark Wieber has very little real world sailing experience and pretends to be an expert. Nothing unusual here. This is very similar to Wieber going on and on about CNC machining even though Wieber has never had a job as a CNC machinist in a machining job shop. He also has zero, and I do mean zero, CADCAM skills. What I really love is how Wieber pretends to have me in his kill file but when he can't take the pressure I put him under he starts responding to my posts calling him on his never ending bull**** / lies.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".

The only people who buy any of Mark Wieber's bull**** and lies are his clique of idiot members like Larry Jackass and those that think they can get something for nothing or dirt cheap from him.

On 12/4/2013 6:58 PM, Richard wrote:
On 12/4/2013 6:46 PM, Richard wrote:
..

In poker, it's called a "call".


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

NADA says average retail is $2090. Just for reference.

So for a thousand more, we don't want to see stress cracks in the glass!
Corners of the cockpit floor are typical places where that happens.

Any cracks in the combing are a deal breaker.
As would be any soft spots in the decks.
These boats have plywood cores in the decks, and a soft spot meant rot.
I have a cleaver way of fixing that on a beater.
But I don't WANT a beater...

I wouldn't expect much gloss from the gel coat.
That's not a deal breaker because gel coat can always be brought back to
mirror finish (if there is any left and it hasn't been painted)

The Honda 6 is plenty for that boat.

Can't expect much from the sails at that price.
A good new suit would cost more than the boat.


Just talked to the fellow and this boat itself doesn't sound bad.
At least it's not all stress cracked and soggy.
Which is always a good thing.
New jib this year. but the main is old and kinda baggy.

But no trailer and _only_ 1800 miles away. (one way)

On 12/4/2013 7:47 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:40:56 PM UTC-8, Richard wrote:

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.

What Mark Wieber start typing the bull**** begins.


I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association

for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in

1975.

Real world experience where as per usual it looks to me like Mark Wieber has
very little real world sailing experience and pretends to be an expert.
Nothing unusual here. This is very similar to Wieber going on and on
about CNC machining even though Wieber has never had a job as a CNC
machinist in a machining job shop. He also has zero, and I do mean zero,
CADCAM skills. What I really love is how Wieber pretends to have me in
his kill file but when he can't take the pressure I put him under he
starts responding to my posts calling him on his never ending bull**** /
lies.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".

The only people who buy any of Mark Wieber's bull**** and lies are his clique of idiot members like Larry Jackass and those that think they can get something for nothing or dirt cheap from him.

Sorry 'bout that... fumble finger syndrome strikes again.

What I was going to say, jon, was -
don't be so hard on him. As he has always said,
it's all just for entertainment...

Lots of people use the net to live vicariously,
and vent...

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 7:37:13 PM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
Sorry 'bout that... fumble finger syndrome strikes again.



What I was going to say, jon, was -

don't be so hard on him. As he has always said,

it's all just for entertainment...



Lots of people use the net to live vicariously,

and vent...


I liked your fiberglassing Instructable. Haven't spent anytime on that site.

Got any cool or helpful stuff you have viewed on Instructables that you think is well done?

On 12/4/2013 10:32 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 7:37:13 PM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
Sorry 'bout that... fumble finger syndrome strikes again.



What I was going to say, jon, was -

don't be so hard on him. As he has always said,

it's all just for entertainment...



Lots of people use the net to live vicariously,

and vent...


I liked your fiberglassing Instructable. Haven't spent anytime on that site.

Got any cool or helpful stuff you have viewed on Instructables that you think is well done?



I'm glad your enjoyed that one.
I would never have expected 40,000 viewers on that one, but...

It's probably the level of detail, and the transformation from raw
material, to fugly mess, to not half bad that appeals to people.

It was certainly fun to do. I made one that was just a bit too
small for the job. When I started the one in the presentation,
me better half came out to watch. I gave her my good camera (!)
and we shot it all in one afternoon. I think she did right well.

As for recommendations, man, name a topic first!
They kind of cover the entire spectrum of interests.

I watch a lot of the micro-controller offerings.
Specifically the Parallax Propeller projects.
Not that I want to build any/all of it.
Just looking for basic ideas, I guess.
And seeing what people have created.

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 04 Dec 2013
13:53:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gunner, except for stuff that must support your weight, the rule in boats
and airplanes is about the same as in motor homes... Cabinets should have
light frames with THIN skins!

Most of what you build in there should be skinned with 5mm stuff. Cheaper,
too.

LLoyd

Ayup. And 4mm is 50 a sheet. Which is a bit odd..but you arent
paying for the wood as much as the glue and processing.


I picked up a couple dozen 4'x8' sheets of Lauan plywood from a local
company that repairs large truck & trailer bodies. They get roll up
doors & parts bolted to them, but there is a lot of good clear lumber
left for my projects. I picked it up for free, and someone else paid for
the gasoline.

I got some mahogany 2x3 from a shipping crate. Plus a fair amount
of presawn thin oak boards from the pallet collection. Real nice for
use in making small jewelry boxes and the like. Also scored a couple
skins of 3mm ply - but most that's been used for is to make a
"costume" for a guitar in a school play.
My "No! Really?" moment was pricing 4x4 at Lowe's - I'd scored a
dozen or so, in eight to fourteen foot lengths, from the shipping
department's scrap bin. Used to ship AL billets. What they wanted at
the store, highway robbery!
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On 12/4/2013 7:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:19:03 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner fired this volley in
:

IRCC..its $65 a 4x8 sheet of 12mm


Gunner, except for stuff that must support your weight, the rule in boats
and airplanes is about the same as in motor homes... Cabinets should have
light frames with THIN skins!

Most of what you build in there should be skinned with 5mm stuff. Cheaper,
too.

LLoyd

Ayup. And 4mm is 50 a sheet. Which is a bit odd..but you arent
paying for the wood as much as the glue and processing.


And volume. The less there is, the more it cost.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" on Wed, 04 Dec 2013
13:53:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Gunner, except for stuff that must support your weight, the rule in boats
and airplanes is about the same as in motor homes... Cabinets should have
light frames with THIN skins!

Most of what you build in there should be skinned with 5mm stuff. Cheaper,
too.

LLoyd

Ayup. And 4mm is 50 a sheet. Which is a bit odd..but you arent
paying for the wood as much as the glue and processing.


I picked up a couple dozen 4'x8' sheets of Lauan plywood from a local
company that repairs large truck & trailer bodies. They get roll up
doors & parts bolted to them, but there is a lot of good clear lumber
left for my projects. I picked it up for free, and someone else paid for
the gasoline.

I got some mahogany 2x3 from a shipping crate. Plus a fair amount
of presawn thin oak boards from the pallet collection. Real nice for
use in making small jewelry boxes and the like. Also scored a couple
skins of 3mm ply - but most that's been used for is to make a
"costume" for a guitar in a school play.
My "No! Really?" moment was pricing 4x4 at Lowe's - I'd scored a
dozen or so, in eight to fourteen foot lengths, from the shipping
department's scrap bin. Used to ship AL billets. What they wanted at
the store, highway robbery!


I like the 12' x 4' crates they ship bulk plate glass in. Two nice
13' 2x12s and a bunch of other good lumber.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

pyotr filipivich wrote:


I picked up a couple dozen 4'x8' sheets of Lauan plywood from a
local
company that repairs large truck & trailer bodies. They get roll
up
doors & parts bolted to them, but there is a lot of good clear
lumber
left for my projects. I picked it up for free, and someone else
paid for
the gasoline.

I got some mahogany 2x3 from a shipping crate. Plus a fair
amount
of presawn thin oak boards from the pallet collection. Real nice
for
use in making small jewelry boxes and the like. Also scored a
couple
skins of 3mm ply - but most that's been used for is to make a
"costume" for a guitar in a school play.
My "No! Really?" moment was pricing 4x4 at Lowe's - I'd
scored a
dozen or so, in eight to fourteen foot lengths, from the shipping
department's scrap bin. Used to ship AL billets. What they wanted
at
the store, highway robbery!


I like the 12' x 4' crates they ship bulk plate glass in. Two nice
13' 2x12s and a bunch of other good lumber.


I built two sheds out of ~4"x3"x10' hardwood stringers from the
pallets that kitchen counters come on. A 4' wrecking bar disassembles
pallets fairly easily.

Sometimes the big box store managers will give me a good price on
plywood damaged in shipping, like $8 a sheet for thin oak, when I had
gone in to buy Lauan underlayment to make small cabinets.

It bothers me to see useable stuff sent to landfills.
jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I like the 12' x 4' crates they ship bulk plate glass in. Two nice
13' 2x12s and a bunch of other good lumber.


I built two sheds out of ~4"x3"x10' hardwood stringers from the
pallets that kitchen counters come on. A 4' wrecking bar disassembles
pallets fairly easily.

Sometimes the big box store managers will give me a good price on
plywood damaged in shipping, like $8 a sheet for thin oak, when I had
gone in to buy Lauan underlayment to make small cabinets.

It bothers me to see useable stuff sent to landfills.


Me, too. That's why I have a couple hundred board feet of 1x6 and
larger 12' longer boards in storage.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:40:56 -0600, Richard
wrote:

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.
Come out on the race course.

The fastest boat I've seem personally is a Melges 24 named
Rocket Science. I've seen her doing better than 20 knots
on a a reach.

I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association
for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in
1975.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".

The trouble with go fast sailing is that it is a lot of work. If the
helmsman loses his concentration for a moment the speed drops off. If
the sheet tenders don't pay attention the speed drops off. If the crew
doesn't sit further enough out on the rail the speed drops off.

It is sort of fun for an afternoon but Gunner was talking about a trip
to Baja.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 23:56:14 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600, Richard
wrote:

SNIP

http://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/4226956341.html

SNIP

Hey Gunner,

Now that's a NICE looking boat. I had decided to stay home this
winter, but maybe, just maybe, something like this would get me
interested to head on down to Florida for a month or so. We'll see.

Take care.

Brian Lawson

ps...the Capri 22 looked nice too, but too far to haul home.

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:40:56 -0600, Richard
wrote:

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.
Come out on the race course.

The fastest boat I've seem personally is a Melges 24 named
Rocket Science. I've seen her doing better than 20 knots
on a a reach.

I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association
for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in
1975.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".






The Melges boats are always screamers..and they dont have "cabins" and
a head either' Ive raced M and X boats a number of times, boh as
skipper and opponent. My Thistle came close to kicking that ass of a
24 on a number of occasions..and did several times.

Teacher! Cool!

As for the USCG ticket..my first one was dated 1970. Then there was
the Power Squadron stuff from 1967-68

Comes from growing up on the Great Lakes..and having far too many
Coasties in the family.

Sigh..and now I live in the freaking desert...sigh




--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:37:13 -0600, Richard
wrote:

Sorry 'bout that... fumble finger syndrome strikes again.

What I was going to say, jon, was -
don't be so hard on him. As he has always said,
it's all just for entertainment...

Lots of people use the net to live vicariously,
and vent...

Afterall...jonboi has nothing else to do except sit on that falling
down sofa, drink beer and post on Usenet.

(Grin)

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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http://www.avast.com

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:46:00 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 1:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:11:04 -0600,
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 1:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600,
wrote:

Something to think about, Gunner.
Adding "cabinetry" to a very light boat like the Venture is something I
would not do. And I LOVE making things for my boats.

I say that because it adds dead weight to the boat,
takes up interior space, and _can_ turn out to be
more in the way that useful.

Go slow and minimal for best results.

Marine plywood may not be necessary.
I've used a lot of baltic birch with good results
BECAUSE I use the West System system.
Three coats of resin to completely seal the wood.

It's not an extra expense for cheap wood because you really
need to do the same treatment to marine plywood too to keep
it from wicking up water.

But whichever wood you use, I strongly recommend that there
be no exposed end grain plywood. At bare minimum seal the
ends with epoxy. Better yet is to add solid wood stoppers
(also sealed with epoxy )

Well anyway...

At least you are right-side-up in both of them.


I'm still looking for a Capri 22.
Looks like that's going to be a bit more expensive.

Ask and yee shall receive....

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/4222627960.html

Hows that for service?

Gunner


Gun-Ner!!@&*

San Francisco is not exactly in trailer range - for a boat
with no trailer.

Try A-Gin.

Sign up on the Free Saiboat group..find a $500 trailer and come and
get the damned thing.

You getting mighty picky when I find you a decent boat aintcha?

Damned young puppies want the moon and the stars! Spit...shuckens!

As you said..there are only 1500 of them in the entire
HewNItedStats...so ya strike while the iron is hott!!

And dont wait too long before calling the guy..it aint winter out
here..so someone will snag that pretty quick.

Hell..buy the boat and we can store it here until you can come get it.
Ill go get it for a hundred bucks to cover the gas. Or pay the slip
fees until you can come get it.

Know any truckers deadheading a flat bed back to Texas? Talk to a
broker. But buy that sucker! You wont forgive yourself if you dont.

Gunner


In poker, it's called a "call".

What is?


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

Which is why I posted it to you..not to the sailboat group.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:58:06 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 6:46 PM, Richard wrote:
..

In poker, it's called a "call".


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

NADA says average retail is $2090. Just for reference.

So for a thousand more, we don't want to see stress cracks in the glass!
Corners of the cockpit floor are typical places where that happens.

Any cracks in the combing are a deal breaker.
As would be any soft spots in the decks.
These boats have plywood cores in the decks, and a soft spot meant rot.
I have a cleaver way of fixing that on a beater.
But I don't WANT a beater...

I wouldn't expect much gloss from the gel coat.
That's not a deal breaker because gel coat can always be brought back to
mirror finish (if there is any left and it hasn't been painted)

The Honda 6 is plenty for that boat.

Can't expect much from the sails at that price.
A good new suit would cost more than the boat.

I would..would expect you to get a survey of some sort.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:14:42 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 6:58 PM, Richard wrote:
On 12/4/2013 6:46 PM, Richard wrote:
..

In poker, it's called a "call".


I left a message, but he hasn't called back yet.
It IS a fin keel.

NADA says average retail is $2090. Just for reference.

So for a thousand more, we don't want to see stress cracks in the glass!
Corners of the cockpit floor are typical places where that happens.

Any cracks in the combing are a deal breaker.
As would be any soft spots in the decks.
These boats have plywood cores in the decks, and a soft spot meant rot.
I have a cleaver way of fixing that on a beater.
But I don't WANT a beater...

I wouldn't expect much gloss from the gel coat.
That's not a deal breaker because gel coat can always be brought back to
mirror finish (if there is any left and it hasn't been painted)

The Honda 6 is plenty for that boat.

Can't expect much from the sails at that price.
A good new suit would cost more than the boat.


Just talked to the fellow and this boat itself doesn't sound bad.
At least it's not all stress cracked and soggy.
Which is always a good thing.
New jib this year. but the main is old and kinda baggy.

But no trailer and _only_ 1800 miles away. (one way)

Check the trailers in the freesailboat group? Pick up one for $400
on your way west.

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:01:18 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 3:21 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:43:14 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:21:35 -0600,
wrote:

On 12/4/2013 11:19 AM, no spam wrote:

How well does the swing-down keel work on any of these boats. Typically
first to leak and cause lots of problems that are hard or impossible to
fix - including making noise as you come about etc.?

Well, that's pretty much true of older or poorly maintained boats.
But it doesn't have to be that way.

If the hinge is loose (worn) or there is slop between keel board and
the trunk it retracts into, it will bang around, wobble some, and maybe
have a tack (side) that it sails better than the other.

The pennant (cable that raises and lowers the keel) will sing sweetly at
any speed. But that's pure unadulterated drag.

Loading heavily enough to get the hinge pin under water can sink a boat.

And the slot for the trunk is not exactly what we call a streamlined
shape...

Another thing is that swing keels are usually cast iron - not lead.
With all the issues that come with iron in salt water.

And the trunk takes up a lot of room in the cabin - right where the
floor could be.

But - some people still like the idea...


I had an 18 foot sailboat with a swing keel 2'x4' 1/2inch steel plate if
memory serves - that was nothing but a pain also. If any growth gets
either into the trunk or box etc. then you have a 'conservation of space'
problem (Only one object can occupy any given space at any given time.)

Have a fixed keel and lift (with a crane) in and out of the water from a
trailer - is the only way to go IMHO.

And if there is no lake suitable for a long fixed keel and no
crane...one simply doesnt bother with the sport. Right?

Now about that growth on freshwater boats..that would be..what? Alge?

Hummm?

Gunner


And mussels.
Zebra mussels have invaded quite a lot of the fresh water systems.
Messes up water purification plants as well as centerboard trunks.

I thought you knew all this **** already!?!?

We dont have many of them (as of yet) in California.. there are 24
known locations..all down south.

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/taxgroup/moll...eissenaMap.jpg

and they dont live very long once they have been trailered out and sit
in the hot desert son for a couple weeks.

https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.a...cumentID=43333

So about that alge?

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 21:43:03 -0500, Brian Lawson
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 23:56:14 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:43:16 -0600, Richard
wrote:

SNIP

http://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/4226956341.html

SNIP

Hey Gunner,

Now that's a NICE looking boat. I had decided to stay home this
winter, but maybe, just maybe, something like this would get me
interested to head on down to Florida for a month or so. We'll see.

Take care.

Brian Lawson

ps...the Capri 22 looked nice too, but too far to haul home.

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http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/freesailboats/info

We get a few now and then in Canada as well, though we seldom search
up there.

go to www.searchtempest.com

enter x number of miles you wish to search in..then enter Sailboat in
the box..and let it run.

Its quite simple.

http://abbotsford.en.craigslist.ca/bar/4222960098.html
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/mss/boa/4219078976.html
etc etc

I cant recall which province you live in..so only gave an example

There are a literal ****load of boats available down the eastern
seaboard. Annapolis Maryland is normally a veritible hotbed of free
boats. Sign up on the freesailboat group and simply go through the
photos for an example..but using searchtempest will get you current
boats (check phone numbers on the old ads as well if you see something
interesting. Lots of Canucks going south about now..perhaps one could
haul one back north to you. No idea of what the import etc etc
is..thats up to you. Shrug.

This may be a good source as well

http://ca.zapmeta.com/ws?q=free%20sa..._zm_ca_sp_c300

Gunner

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On 12/7/2013 6:47 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:40:56 -0600,
wrote:

When the green flag drops, the bull**** stops.
Come out on the race course.

The fastest boat I've seem personally is a Melges 24 named
Rocket Science. I've seen her doing better than 20 knots
on a a reach.

I have been teaching for the local American Sailing Association
for a while now, gunner. And I got my first USCG ticket back in
1975.

So no, I'm not buying any of that "entertainment".






The Melges boats are always screamers..and they dont have "cabins" and
a head either' Ive raced M and X boats a number of times, boh as
skipper and opponent. My Thistle came close to kicking that ass of a
24 on a number of occasions..and did several times.

Teacher! Cool!

As for the USCG ticket..my first one was dated 1970. Then there was
the Power Squadron stuff from 1967-68

Comes from growing up on the Great Lakes..and having far too many
Coasties in the family.

Sigh..and now I live in the freaking desert...sigh





Build a Land Sailer?