No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

Ignoramus11290 fired this volley in
:

So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

Ig, it depends entirely on how fast your servo over-current detection or
following error aborts can handle the crash.

Hardly anything is "ruined permanently", so long as you're willing the
spend the time and money to fix it.

LLoyd

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On 8/20/2010 4:27 PM, Ignoramus11290 wrote:

what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

Possible problems:

Break end mill
Injury from flying fragments of broken end mill
Big divot in side/top of vise
Ruined part
Injury from said part being flung from vise
Knock head out of tram (maybe not an issue with yours?)
Damage tool holder, spindle taper
Damage spindle bearings
Scrap one pair of underwear
Stress from massive surge of adrenaline

Almost any combination of the above is possible depending on the
situation. Highly unlikely to permanently damage the mill, but repairs
could be somewhat expensive depending what needed replacing.

Most of my mill files are under 1k and I essentially wrote them by hand.
I know exactly what is -supposed- to happen. If I have any doubts, I
will spend the time doing a dry run to make sure.


Jon

Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

"Crash" is a relative term. Depending on what your feed, spindle speed,
tool and "crash" area is it could result in anything from a scuff on the
side of the vice before a near instant axis fault shutdown, of it could
result in your part being cut out of your vise. Remember that your vise
is metal and your tools are intended to cut metal, so if the "crash"
results in traveling into the vise at a modest feed rate and depth of
cut, nothing bad may happen beyond messing up the vise. The big machines
have been known to mill big chunks of vise away without slowing down or
generating any faults.

On 8/20/2010 5:02 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash

I saw a very high speed machining center at a trade show. Forget the
name, but it used a carousel sorta like a Brother or Fanuc RoboDrill.
When the tool came out from under the chip shield, it was suddenly just
THERE, 50 thou or so above the part. If there was a screwup in offsets
or something of that nature, the crash would be over and done with
before the brain could fully register what had just happened.

Here's one stellar example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb1kU...eature=related
(fast forward to about 2:00)


Jon

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:02:06 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.


Indeed. Look in your software for a modal called "work shift"

Most ..not all ..many...software systems have a M or G code for work
shift..which means you say G10 Z3...which shifts ALL Z moves 3"
higher than your program tells it to. Use it at the beginning of the
program and it remains modal..active throughout the entire program.

Its like setting a universal offset and applying it to the quill. This
keeps you from sqewering bugs in your vise if you missed a decimal
point.

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2 & 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:20:18 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

On 8/20/2010 5:02 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash

I saw a very high speed machining center at a trade show. Forget the
name, but it used a carousel sorta like a Brother or Fanuc RoboDrill.
When the tool came out from under the chip shield, it was suddenly just
THERE, 50 thou or so above the part. If there was a screwup in offsets
or something of that nature, the crash would be over and done with
before the brain could fully register what had just happened.

Here's one stellar example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb1kU...eature=related
(fast forward to about 2:00)


Jon


Oh..before I let Jon go...I dont suppose he or the other guys here have
seen what an OmniTurn does when its fancied up a bit....

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=omniturn&aq=f


Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 2010-08-21, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

"Crash" is a relative term. Depending on what your feed, spindle speed,
tool and "crash" area is it could result in anything from a scuff on the
side of the vice before a near instant axis fault shutdown, of it could
result in your part being cut out of your vise. Remember that your vise
is metal and your tools are intended to cut metal, so if the "crash"
results in traveling into the vise at a modest feed rate and depth of
cut, nothing bad may happen beyond messing up the vise. The big machines
have been known to mill big chunks of vise away without slowing down or
generating any faults.

What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

i

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:20:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:02:06 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.


Indeed. Look in your software for a modal called "work shift"

Most ..not all ..many...software systems have a M or G code for work
shift..which means you say G10 Z3...which shifts ALL Z moves 3"
higher than your program tells it to. Use it at the beginning of the
program and it remains modal..active throughout the entire program.

Its like setting a universal offset and applying it to the quill. This
keeps you from sqewering bugs in your vise if you missed a decimal
point.

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2 & 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Single Block - "boring!"

But on some occasions, "bored is good".

"In my experience" the outcome from hitting the vise depends on
what else happens. Going fast, and hitting it with an end mill =
broken end mill. Going slow (as in single block, and feed rate
override turned down to 1%) - the collet hit the aluminum jaws, and
melted enough aluminum to wrap twice around the tool holder - before
it torques out of the spindle. Which is when it alarmed out. Even at
slow, that happens awful damn fast. Oh ... ****! I'm told that was
a "mere" $40,000 repair bill. Very expensive education.


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:55:01 -0500, Ignoramus11290
wrote:

Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

i

actually..I have one of each..GT75 and retrofitted Hardinge.

Both are well used and rough, and need me to go through them completely.

Ill sell one for $6-9k, the other for $9-11k.

Shall I take your order?

G

Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:03:59 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:20:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:02:06 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.


Indeed. Look in your software for a modal called "work shift"

Most ..not all ..many...software systems have a M or G code for work
shift..which means you say G10 Z3...which shifts ALL Z moves 3"
higher than your program tells it to. Use it at the beginning of the
program and it remains modal..active throughout the entire program.

Its like setting a universal offset and applying it to the quill. This
keeps you from sqewering bugs in your vise if you missed a decimal
point.

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2 & 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Single Block - "boring!"

But on some occasions, "bored is good".

"In my experience" the outcome from hitting the vise depends on
what else happens. Going fast, and hitting it with an end mill =
broken end mill. Going slow (as in single block, and feed rate
override turned down to 1%) - the collet hit the aluminum jaws, and
melted enough aluminum to wrap twice around the tool holder - before
it torques out of the spindle. Which is when it alarmed out. Even at
slow, that happens awful damn fast. Oh ... ****! I'm told that was
a "mere" $40,000 repair bill. Very expensive education.


pyotr


Ive never seen an Omni knocked out of alignment or busted that way.
There simply isn that kind of mass there...chuckle and the servos are
only 500 in/lb

I did see one cratered by forklift once though.....

that was a $34k bill.....


Gunner

--


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost

On 8/20/2010 8:20 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2& 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Yeah, an Omniturn can thrash a tool in 1/3 of an eye blink... I've done
that a couple times when writing code for back turning, and forgetting a
minus sign on the X...


Jon

Ignoramus11290 wrote:

On 2010-08-21, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

"Crash" is a relative term. Depending on what your feed, spindle speed,
tool and "crash" area is it could result in anything from a scuff on the
side of the vice before a near instant axis fault shutdown, of it could
result in your part being cut out of your vise. Remember that your vise
is metal and your tools are intended to cut metal, so if the "crash"
results in traveling into the vise at a modest feed rate and depth of
cut, nothing bad may happen beyond messing up the vise. The big machines
have been known to mill big chunks of vise away without slowing down or
generating any faults.

What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

If your controls are set properly, a near instant axis fault and
shutdown. The spindle is designed to handle the high side loads of
cutting at the side forces the machine is capable of generating. You
could expect some scuff marks on the side of the spindle and vise, and
probably little more.

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:12:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:55:01 -0500, Ignoramus11290
wrote:

Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

i

actually..I have one of each..GT75 and retrofitted Hardinge.

Both are well used and rough, and need me to go through them completely.

Ill sell one for $6-9k, the other for $9-11k.

Shall I take your order?

Iggy, its time for you to watch for a lathe to refit. I just tore down
a Hardinge HNC for spare parts because I was sure it wouldn't bring
$1K. You should have little trouble doing better than that. Hardinge
iron can't be beat.

karl



G

Gunner

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:46:43 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:12:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:55:01 -0500, Ignoramus11290
wrote:

Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

i

actually..I have one of each..GT75 and retrofitted Hardinge.

Both are well used and rough, and need me to go through them completely.

Ill sell one for $6-9k, the other for $9-11k.

Shall I take your order?

Iggy, its time for you to watch for a lathe to refit. I just tore down
a Hardinge HNC for spare parts because I was sure it wouldn't bring
$1K. You should have little trouble doing better than that. Hardinge
iron can't be beat.

karl

Im wondering when I should repost the message from Iggy where he claimed
he wouldnt be buying any more iron....and I laughed and told him he was
addicted...and it would not be the end of it.....

Ill wait a couple weeks until he drags something in the door.....

VBG

Gunner, who finished up the Helios horizontal tonight and covered it
up..next to the other two mills in his shop.....

I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 2010-08-21, Karl Townsend wrote:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:12:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:55:01 -0500, Ignoramus11290
wrote:

Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

i

actually..I have one of each..GT75 and retrofitted Hardinge.

Both are well used and rough, and need me to go through them completely.

Ill sell one for $6-9k, the other for $9-11k.

Shall I take your order?

Iggy, its time for you to watch for a lathe to refit. I just tore down
a Hardinge HNC for spare parts because I was sure it wouldn't bring
$1K. You should have little trouble doing better than that. Hardinge
iron can't be beat.

Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:18:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:03:59 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:20:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:02:06 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.


Indeed. Look in your software for a modal called "work shift"

Most ..not all ..many...software systems have a M or G code for work
shift..which means you say G10 Z3...which shifts ALL Z moves 3"
higher than your program tells it to. Use it at the beginning of the
program and it remains modal..active throughout the entire program.

Its like setting a universal offset and applying it to the quill. This
keeps you from sqewering bugs in your vise if you missed a decimal
point.

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2 & 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Single Block - "boring!"

But on some occasions, "bored is good".

"In my experience" the outcome from hitting the vise depends on
what else happens. Going fast, and hitting it with an end mill =
broken end mill. Going slow (as in single block, and feed rate
override turned down to 1%) - the collet hit the aluminum jaws, and
melted enough aluminum to wrap twice around the tool holder - before
it torques out of the spindle. Which is when it alarmed out. Even at
slow, that happens awful damn fast. Oh ... ****! I'm told that was
a "mere" $40,000 repair bill. Very expensive education.


pyotr


Ive never seen an Omni knocked out of alignment or busted that way.
There simply isn that kind of mass there...chuckle and the servos are
only 500 in/lb

I did see one cratered by forklift once though.....

that was a $34k bill.....


THis was a Cinncinati Arrow?sabre. I have come to realize that I
am not a Machnist, but an operator. A good one, though, but I am not
the sort to wnat to know allthe specs of the machine I'm running. ANd
I don't have a :feel: for it. The "sounds right" ability, Feeds &
speeds vs alloy, etc. Heck, I've only been at it three years, I know
where to put my lunch bucket and how to find the coffee machine, but I
still have to look up anything more technical. Which, in itself, is
not a bad thing.

pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Hardinge has great docs, and gunner has forgot more about them than
you'll ever need to know.

FWIW, I'd start looking now. You get better deals with a long time
frame. And machinery is on fire sale now.

Look at gunner's video. That's called gang tooling, no turret. For an
omni refit of a hardinge they pull the turret off. Refitting a
hardinge to gang tool would be a smaller job than your mill.

If you want to keep the turret, you'll have to learn how to handle
more I/O and PLC type logic in EMC. Its a sure bet somebody has
already done a hardinge. I like having the turret, all the tools I use
are all set up and ready to go, up to 16 is not a problem. You can
quickly swap entire turrets out You also can more easily make long
parts with a turret.

P.S. Gunner's right, its time for you to eat crow on your words about
never needing another machine. Don't feel bad, I'm addicted too. I
REALLY want another lathe, got my heart set on a Leblond servo shift

Karl

On 2010-08-21, Karl Townsend wrote:

Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Hardinge has great docs, and gunner has forgot more about them than
you'll ever need to know.

FWIW, I'd start looking now. You get better deals with a long time
frame. And machinery is on fire sale now.

Look at gunner's video. That's called gang tooling, no turret. For an
omni refit of a hardinge they pull the turret off. Refitting a
hardinge to gang tool would be a smaller job than your mill.

If you want to keep the turret, you'll have to learn how to handle
more I/O and PLC type logic in EMC. Its a sure bet somebody has
already done a hardinge. I like having the turret, all the tools I use
are all set up and ready to go, up to 16 is not a problem. You can
quickly swap entire turrets out You also can more easily make long
parts with a turret.

P.S. Gunner's right, its time for you to eat crow on your words about
never needing another machine. Don't feel bad, I'm addicted too. I
REALLY want another lathe, got my heart set on a Leblond servo shift

Karl, I am starting to like this idea. I know nothing about CNC
lathes. I believe that some people on the EMC2 IRC channel refitted a
Hardinge CHNC or some such. I know that EMC2 handles ladder logic and
can do tool changes, though I am sure that it is complicated.

So, let me say something and you would say if it is true or not. I can
buy a Hardinge NC lathe, in a decent condition, throw out the entire
cabinet with electronics, refit it with EMC2 and parallel port I/O
controller (like Jon's), do some configuration work like on the mill,
and I will end up with a decent hobby CNC lathe. No need for taper
attachments and other B/S. Right?

i

So, let me say something and you would say if it is true or not. I can
buy a Hardinge NC lathe, in a decent condition, throw out the entire
cabinet with electronics, refit it with EMC2 and parallel port I/O
controller (like Jon's), do some configuration work like on the mill,
and I will end up with a decent hobby CNC lathe. No need for taper
attachments and other B/S. Right?

i

Yep, and you should sell the spare stuff off and have less in to it
that you got in your mill. I paid $1200 for mine when prices were high
and sold the spindle drive for $500, the X and Z drive for another
$500, and IIRC, the other stuff for another $50. I should have tried
harder - had too much $ in this unit.VBG

No such thing as taper attach on CNC. But don't try to run a lathe
without a complete collet set and collet closer. I think step collets
are mandatory also. And you'll want three jaw and four jaw chucks. So,
like any machine, you buy it again tooling it up.

Karl

On 2010-08-21, Karl Townsend wrote:

So, let me say something and you would say if it is true or not. I can
buy a Hardinge NC lathe, in a decent condition, throw out the entire
cabinet with electronics, refit it with EMC2 and parallel port I/O
controller (like Jon's), do some configuration work like on the mill,
and I will end up with a decent hobby CNC lathe. No need for taper
attachments and other B/S. Right?

i

Yep, and you should sell the spare stuff off and have less in to it
that you got in your mill. I paid $1200 for mine when prices were high
and sold the spindle drive for $500, the X and Z drive for another
$500, and IIRC, the other stuff for another $50. I should have tried
harder - had too much $ in this unit.VBG

No such thing as taper attach on CNC. But don't try to run a lathe
without a complete collet set and collet closer. I think step collets
are mandatory also. And you'll want three jaw and four jaw chucks. So,
like any machine, you buy it again tooling it up.

Very nice. I will keep an open mind about it. I have a couple of lathe
projects right now, to make slitting saw holders for my mill.

i

Ignoramus11290 wrote:
No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

The overload clutch on the Bridgeport Series I power feed is supposed to
be set at 200 Lbs.
I took that as a guide, and designed my Z axis to be fairly weak so it
would stall around there.
I have plunged into a vise jaw once. Since it was hardened, it just
left a polished ring on the jaw, and did bad things to the cutting edges
of the end mill.

The X and Y axes are quite a bit stronger. I have broken off a 3/8" end
mill while jogging around and the spindle wasn't running.
3/8 and 1/2" cutters will probably fail without doing serious damage to
the spindle bearings. If you have a really solid crash with a larger
tool in the spindle, it could damage the spindle bearings, the QC socket
or maybe bend the spindle.

The Bridgeport is pretty tough, so a minor crash with modest tooling
will just break the cutter.
You may have flying debris in that case.

Jon

Ignoramus25139 wrote:
Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?


There are several Hardinge machines running with the PPMC interface.
So, it would be quite similar and familiar to you. One detail is that
most Hardinges
have resolver feedback, but you've already seen how to do that, too.
Yes, usually an 8-position tool
turret, with a magnet/reed switch encoder. I can refer you to the guys
who have done the retrofit.
EMC2 has all the features in the tool table to handle both Z and X
offsets for lathes.
On the older machines, you really don't want to save much of the
original control,
on some of the later ones, you might keep the servo amps.

Jon

Ignoramus11290 wrote:
What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

My machine has the original round-ram swivel joint with a modified
adaptor to hold the 1J head I put on it.
I have had a couple crashes or overloads where the swivel slipped and I
had to re-tram the machine.
Your machine has the rigid ram, so it doesn't have that "safety
mechanism". I suspect the Series 1 head/spindle
can withstand 500 - 1000 Lbs of radial force on the spindle without
major damage, but above that it could cause
damage to the spindle or bearings. Your servo amps may be able to
deliver more than 1000 Lbs linear force to
the table, so damage is possible.

Jon

On 2010-08-21, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus25139 wrote:
Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?


There are several Hardinge machines running with the PPMC interface.
So, it would be quite similar and familiar to you. One detail is
that most Hardinges have resolver feedback, but you've already seen
how to do that, too. Yes, usually an 8-position tool turret, with a
magnet/reed switch encoder. I can refer you to the guys who have
done the retrofit. EMC2 has all the features in the tool table to
handle both Z and X offsets for lathes. On the older machines, you
really don't want to save much of the original control, on some of
the later ones, you might keep the servo amps.

Good to hear. Thanks Jon. Sonds like I could use the turret, this
would in fact be very nice.

A PC control is very superior to whatever existed 20-30 years ago. I
am very happy with this Bridgeport (except for spindle speed).

i

On 2010-08-21, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus11290 wrote:
What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

My machine has the original round-ram swivel joint with a modified
adaptor to hold the 1J head I put on it. I have had a couple
crashes or overloads where the swivel slipped and I had to re-tram
the machine. Your machine has the rigid ram, so it doesn't have
that "safety mechanism". I suspect the Series 1 head/spindle can
withstand 500 - 1000 Lbs of radial force on the spindle without
major damage, but above that it could cause damage to the spindle or
bearings. Your servo amps may be able to deliver more than 1000 Lbs
linear force to the table, so damage is possible.

I think that there is a little potentiometer on the amps to limit
torque (current), I should try to adjust this so that no more than,
say, 500 lbs is delivered to any axis. I will look into this.

I had this safety addition recently to inhibit amps when EMC is not
controlling position (due to following error, or just being turned
off), and that made me very happy. This would be another useful safety
feature.

I want to finish everything with 3 axis before adding spindle encoders
or moving into other esoterics like 4th axis.

i

On 2010-08-21, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus25139 wrote:
Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?


There are several Hardinge machines running with the PPMC interface.
So, it would be quite similar and familiar to you. One detail is
that most Hardinges have resolver feedback, but you've already seen
how to do that, too. Yes, usually an 8-position tool turret, with a
magnet/reed switch encoder. I can refer you to the guys who have
done the retrofit. EMC2 has all the features in the tool table to
handle both Z and X offsets for lathes. On the older machines, you
really don't want to save much of the original control, on some of
the later ones, you might keep the servo amps.

AMC servo amps are so easy to use, that I do not see the point of
keeping the original servo amps. Selling them off will easily pay for
the new ones, so it is a no brainer.

i

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:45:46 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Hardinge has great docs, and gunner has forgot more about them than
you'll ever need to know.

FWIW, I'd start looking now. You get better deals with a long time
frame. And machinery is on fire sale now.

Look at gunner's video. That's called gang tooling, no turret. For an
omni refit of a hardinge they pull the turret off. Refitting a
hardinge to gang tool would be a smaller job than your mill.

To do a full retrofit, from an unstripped machine to a fully functional
machine ready to make parts...is about 8-10 hours. About 4 hours
stripping the machine, pulling the 1.5hp motor and sticking in a 5hp,
adding the control, coolant pump controls etc etc..is about 5-6 hours.

Course Ive only done a couple hundred...shrug.


If you want to keep the turret, you'll have to learn how to handle
more I/O and PLC type logic in EMC. Its a sure bet somebody has
already done a hardinge. I like having the turret, all the tools I use
are all set up and ready to go, up to 16 is not a problem. You can
quickly swap entire turrets out You also can more easily make long
parts with a turret.

P.S. Gunner's right, its time for you to eat crow on your words about
never needing another machine. Don't feel bad, I'm addicted too. I
REALLY want another lathe, got my heart set on a Leblond servo shift

Karl

Not "needing" another machine..but "wanting" another machine.....snerk
G!

Id love to have a decent Lablond.


Gunner



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:05:07 -0500, Ignoramus25139
wrote:

On 2010-08-21, Karl Townsend wrote:

Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Hardinge has great docs, and gunner has forgot more about them than
you'll ever need to know.

FWIW, I'd start looking now. You get better deals with a long time
frame. And machinery is on fire sale now.

Look at gunner's video. That's called gang tooling, no turret. For an
omni refit of a hardinge they pull the turret off. Refitting a
hardinge to gang tool would be a smaller job than your mill.

If you want to keep the turret, you'll have to learn how to handle
more I/O and PLC type logic in EMC. Its a sure bet somebody has
already done a hardinge. I like having the turret, all the tools I use
are all set up and ready to go, up to 16 is not a problem. You can
quickly swap entire turrets out You also can more easily make long
parts with a turret.

P.S. Gunner's right, its time for you to eat crow on your words about
never needing another machine. Don't feel bad, I'm addicted too. I
REALLY want another lathe, got my heart set on a Leblond servo shift

Karl, I am starting to like this idea. I know nothing about CNC
lathes. I believe that some people on the EMC2 IRC channel refitted a
Hardinge CHNC or some such. I know that EMC2 handles ladder logic and
can do tool changes, though I am sure that it is complicated.

So, let me say something and you would say if it is true or not. I can
buy a Hardinge NC lathe, in a decent condition, throw out the entire
cabinet with electronics, refit it with EMC2 and parallel port I/O
controller (like Jon's), do some configuration work like on the mill,
and I will end up with a decent hobby CNC lathe. No need for taper
attachments and other B/S. Right?

i

Id not toss the cabinet...thats where all the relays and control lines
are. Id GUT OUT the stuff you dont need though.

And yes.

G

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:15:30 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus25139 wrote:
Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?


There are several Hardinge machines running with the PPMC interface.
So, it would be quite similar and familiar to you. One detail is that
most Hardinges
have resolver feedback, but you've already seen how to do that, too.
Yes, usually an 8-position tool
turret, with a magnet/reed switch encoder. I can refer you to the guys
who have done the retrofit.
EMC2 has all the features in the tool table to handle both Z and X
offsets for lathes.
On the older machines, you really don't want to save much of the
original control,
on some of the later ones, you might keep the servo amps.

Jon


Im not a big fan of the turrets myself. A LOT of the machines I gut and
retrofit are being done, simply because the turrets themselves have come
un****ed and are not economically repairable. You can fix them yes
indeed..but next week, something else turns to ****.

Now on the other hand...in a hobby environment...you would not be
running 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, so it may take you 6 months
to a year before that something else happens. Or even longer if you
replaced most of the electronics and took it easier on the machines than
they do in production shops.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:36:57 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:18:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:03:59 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:20:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:02:06 -0400, Ecnerwal
d wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus11290 wrote:

No, nothing happened, I just want to know a little more.

What happens if I make a wrong instruction and, say, crash a spindle
into a vise. What would happen in reality? It is somewhere in the
range between "nothing special" and "explode in a giant fireball". So,
in reality, what happens if I crash a running spindle into a vise or
something of that sort. Would the mill be ruined permanently?

i

It depends. You will (almost) always kill the bit. You'll scar the vise
with the remains of the bit. At that point, either something breaks or
the drive system notices that things are not moving and hopefully goes
to a graceful error mode (ie, stop trying, shut down spindle if spindle
shut down is under program control), rather than making things worse.
Otherwise it becomes an "irresistible force .vs. immovable object" game
until one of them gives up.

In general, watch like a hawk (with a manual kill switch for the machine
- if you don't have one, make one or more) on any new program or
modification. With the router, I also like to "air cut" the whole
program with the machine zero raised an inch or more off the table,
looking for moves that don't belong. I don't always do this, but I've
had some nasty reminders when I don't (ie, trying a particular routine
thats supposed to do a circle cut which turns out to ignore z-axis
scaling - I was working about 25%, so the bit dropped 4 times deeper
than called for and took off smoking, while I grabbed for the kill
switch.)

This is one area where having super-fast, super-powerful axis drives can
become super-expensive when they crash in a superlative fashion and
damage things thought to be sturdy. If your drive logic/control allows
for it, setting some limits that are considerably lower than the drive
is capable of may help with damage control. You can also put mechanical
fuses (shear pins or slip clutches) into the drive train for a
non-computer-dependent limit on possible damages.


Indeed. Look in your software for a modal called "work shift"

Most ..not all ..many...software systems have a M or G code for work
shift..which means you say G10 Z3...which shifts ALL Z moves 3"
higher than your program tells it to. Use it at the beginning of the
program and it remains modal..active throughout the entire program.

Its like setting a universal offset and applying it to the quill. This
keeps you from sqewering bugs in your vise if you missed a decimal
point.

Every time I write a program for an OmniTurn 2 & 3 axis lathe..I use it
to keep the tools AWAY from the workpiece and run the program in single
block, then dead slow automatic before actually trying to run a part.

Single Block - "boring!"

But on some occasions, "bored is good".

"In my experience" the outcome from hitting the vise depends on
what else happens. Going fast, and hitting it with an end mill =
broken end mill. Going slow (as in single block, and feed rate
override turned down to 1%) - the collet hit the aluminum jaws, and
melted enough aluminum to wrap twice around the tool holder - before
it torques out of the spindle. Which is when it alarmed out. Even at
slow, that happens awful damn fast. Oh ... ****! I'm told that was
a "mere" $40,000 repair bill. Very expensive education.


pyotr


Ive never seen an Omni knocked out of alignment or busted that way.
There simply isn that kind of mass there...chuckle and the servos are
only 500 in/lb

I did see one cratered by forklift once though.....

that was a $34k bill.....


THis was a Cinncinati Arrow?sabre. I have come to realize that I
am not a Machnist, but an operator. A good one, though, but I am not
the sort to wnat to know allthe specs of the machine I'm running. ANd
I don't have a :feel: for it. The "sounds right" ability, Feeds &
speeds vs alloy, etc. Heck, I've only been at it three years, I know
where to put my lunch bucket and how to find the coffee machine, but I
still have to look up anything more technical. Which, in itself, is
not a bad thing.

pyotr

Im always amazed by the guys who can be chatting with me at the soda
machine..and suddenly will cock their heads, excuse themselves and walk
down the line to a machine, make an adjustment, and come back. Now
granted..my hearing is nearly kaput...but...these guys..particularly the
Swiss screw machine guys are outragious in what they can "sense".

Tornos mechanical screw machines..walking into the shop..sounds like you
are inside a 2 million pound pocket watch...a wall of noise...and these
guys can hear something "funny" from 50' feet away.

Davenport guys...well..they are all deaf early on...so...shrug

G



Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:57:00 -0500, Ignoramus25139
wrote:

On 2010-08-21, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus11290 wrote:
What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

My machine has the original round-ram swivel joint with a modified
adaptor to hold the 1J head I put on it. I have had a couple
crashes or overloads where the swivel slipped and I had to re-tram
the machine. Your machine has the rigid ram, so it doesn't have
that "safety mechanism". I suspect the Series 1 head/spindle can
withstand 500 - 1000 Lbs of radial force on the spindle without
major damage, but above that it could cause damage to the spindle or
bearings. Your servo amps may be able to deliver more than 1000 Lbs
linear force to the table, so damage is possible.

I think that there is a little potentiometer on the amps to limit
torque (current), I should try to adjust this so that no more than,
say, 500 lbs is delivered to any axis. I will look into this.

I had this safety addition recently to inhibit amps when EMC is not
controlling position (due to following error, or just being turned
off), and that made me very happy. This would be another useful safety
feature.

Indeed. As you are not running the same parts day after day IE..a
commercial shop....you can drop torque limits quite a long way and not
have an issue with the front office G

Make the machine last longer too WHEN you do something wrong.

I want to finish everything with 3 axis before adding spindle encoders
or moving into other esoterics like 4th axis.

i

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Im not a big fan of the turrets myself. A LOT of the machines I gut and
retrofit are being done, simply because the turrets themselves have come
un****ed and are not economically repairable. You can fix them yes
indeed..but next week, something else turns to ****.

Now on the other hand...in a hobby environment...you would not be
running 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, so it may take you 6 months
to a year before that something else happens. Or even longer if you
replaced most of the electronics and took it easier on the machines than
they do in production shops.

Say, have you ever seen the turret air motor replaced with a servo?
This would solve nearly all the issues and designing an adaptor to
hang the motor on the back side of the carriage would be no big deal.

I have to run my air turret for 20 minutes at every startup to warm up
and loosen it. Even with that, I have it set to auto retry when it
don't seat. Of course, the kid used it to make about 10,000 parts when
he was laid off. Having this thing fail once every 50 tool changes was
a total PIA

Now, when i make a couple dozen parts - no big deal.

Karl

Gunner Asch on Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:11:32 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

THis was a Cinncinati Arrow?sabre. I have come to realize that I
am not a Machnist, but an operator. A good one, though, but I am not
the sort to wnat to know allthe specs of the machine I'm running. ANd
I don't have a :feel: for it. The "sounds right" ability, Feeds &
speeds vs alloy, etc. Heck, I've only been at it three years, I know
where to put my lunch bucket and how to find the coffee machine, but I
still have to look up anything more technical. Which, in itself, is
not a bad thing.

pyotr

Im always amazed by the guys who can be chatting with me at the soda
machine..and suddenly will cock their heads, excuse themselves and walk
down the line to a machine, make an adjustment, and come back. Now
granted..my hearing is nearly kaput...but...these guys..particularly the
Swiss screw machine guys are outragious in what they can "sense".

They know what it is suppose to sound like. I was back in the
shop helping a friend pack his toolbox - and all the sounds came back
- including some I wasn't hearing. (Those machines were gone.)

Tornos mechanical screw machines..walking into the shop..sounds like you
are inside a 2 million pound pocket watch...a wall of noise...and these
guys can hear something "funny" from 50' feet away.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:07:08 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


Im not a big fan of the turrets myself. A LOT of the machines I gut and
retrofit are being done, simply because the turrets themselves have come
un****ed and are not economically repairable. You can fix them yes
indeed..but next week, something else turns to ****.

Now on the other hand...in a hobby environment...you would not be
running 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, so it may take you 6 months
to a year before that something else happens. Or even longer if you
replaced most of the electronics and took it easier on the machines than
they do in production shops.

Say, have you ever seen the turret air motor replaced with a servo?
This would solve nearly all the issues and designing an adaptor to
hang the motor on the back side of the carriage would be no big deal.

Yeah...but you have to have associated electronics to impliment it.
Servo amps, and a computer. The Hardinge wasnt set up for a "4th axis"
or anyway to run and determine where that turret is, and if its properly
homed on each "stop". Since its position is held mechanically on
basicly..cogs and pins...shrug.

I have to run my air turret for 20 minutes at every startup to warm up
and loosen it. Even with that, I have it set to auto retry when it
don't seat. Of course, the kid used it to make about 10,000 parts when
he was laid off. Having this thing fail once every 50 tool changes was
a total PIA

Now, when i make a couple dozen parts - no big deal.

Karl

You really need to replace the microswitches with new ones to get it to
set up properly. Anything else is simply spinning your wheels. Seldom is
it a mechanical issue, its usually electric.

On the other hand..those microswitches show up new on Ebay fairly
regularly....cheap. If you can modifiy one thats "almost the same"..you
can do it fairly easily.and cheaply.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 2010-08-21, Ignoramus11290 wrote:
Gunner, I was watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etLSxAV15lQ

and wondering, how much are you asking for your omniturn.

And -- what it is doing in the last third -- totally in the
dark, but still machining sounds in the background. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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On 2010-08-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:45:46 -0500, Karl Townsend
wrote:


Karl, maybe next year, I still have a lot to do. So tell me, those
Hardinge HNCs, which I also saw selling for $1k, can be refitted with
a new control easily? (easily, to me, means, not harder than my
Bridgeport). Docs available? Do they have an indexable turret?

Hardinge has great docs, and gunner has forgot more about them than
you'll ever need to know.

FWIW, I'd start looking now. You get better deals with a long time
frame. And machinery is on fire sale now.

Look at gunner's video. That's called gang tooling, no turret. For an
omni refit of a hardinge they pull the turret off. Refitting a
hardinge to gang tool would be a smaller job than your mill.

To do a full retrofit, from an unstripped machine to a fully functional
machine ready to make parts...is about 8-10 hours. About 4 hours
stripping the machine, pulling the 1.5hp motor and sticking in a 5hp,
adding the control, coolant pump controls etc etc..is about 5-6 hours.

Course Ive only done a couple hundred...shrug.

What control?

On 2010-08-21, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:57:00 -0500, Ignoramus25139
wrote:

On 2010-08-21, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus11290 wrote:
What I meant was this: say, I lose the spindle so that the spindle is
at the level of the vise (and not just the tool) and then I crash it
into a vise. What would happen?

My machine has the original round-ram swivel joint with a modified
adaptor to hold the 1J head I put on it. I have had a couple
crashes or overloads where the swivel slipped and I had to re-tram
the machine. Your machine has the rigid ram, so it doesn't have
that "safety mechanism". I suspect the Series 1 head/spindle can
withstand 500 - 1000 Lbs of radial force on the spindle without
major damage, but above that it could cause damage to the spindle or
bearings. Your servo amps may be able to deliver more than 1000 Lbs
linear force to the table, so damage is possible.

I think that there is a little potentiometer on the amps to limit
torque (current), I should try to adjust this so that no more than,
say, 500 lbs is delivered to any axis. I will look into this.

I had this safety addition recently to inhibit amps when EMC is not
controlling position (due to following error, or just being turned
off), and that made me very happy. This would be another useful safety
feature.

Indeed. As you are not running the same parts day after day IE..a
commercial shop....you can drop torque limits quite a long way and not
have an issue with the front office G

Make the machine last longer too WHEN you do something wrong.

Yep.

I am mostly limited by my spindle speed in the size of things that I
am making.

i

I want to finish everything with 3 axis before adding spindle encoders
or moving into other esoterics like 4th axis.

i

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)