What works best for mouse/rat/gopher poison & in what concentration?

I already use rat traps on the floor in out-of-the-way places, but,
in the basement drawers and shelves, I don't want a trap which might
snap on an unsuspecting human (nor would it fit in some spaces).

So I just want to drop a few pieces of poison in the drawers and
on the shelves that have droppings in them.

Today, I saw the following at the hardware store in California:

Brodifacoum 0.005%
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3819/1...c66159b9_o.gif

Bromadiolone 0.005%
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3809/1...e807f9f8_o.gif

Bromethalin 0.01%
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/1...78511828_o.gif

I couldn't find any chlorophacinone, or diphacinone; so I ended up
buying the cheapest they had, which was the Bromadiolone:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3698/1...d60e1e57_o.gif

But, for the next time, I wish to ask:

Q: What mouse/rat poison do you use for basement drawers & shelves
(and in what concentration)?

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 22:44:40 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Q: What mouse/rat poison do you use for basement drawers & shelves
(and in what concentration)?

",,,No chemical repellents are registered for rat control. There is no
sound evidence that products sold as general animal repellents are
effective in repelling rats."

Roof Rat:

http://jspestcontrol.com/pest-library/roof-rat/

Are these the same as in your pool equipment area?

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:19:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

Are these the same as in your pool equipment area?

Nah.

The poison is for the critters in the basement and garage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...bd49bdb0_o.jpg

I'm not sure *what* critters they are, but, they shred papers
and leave droppings, like this in my drawers, and on shelves:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/1...efb1e421_o.gif

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:19:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

No chemical repellents are registered for rat control. There is no
sound evidence that products sold as general animal repellents are
effective in repelling rats."

After reading that, I googled some of the poisons and found two very
interesting points.

1. Get your bare poisons now, because in California, it's illegal for
them to sell them. They can only use up their current stocks (according
to the store owner I just called). The EPA apparently has outlawed
bare poison blocks.
http://www.ipmnet.org/tim/pesticide_...n_Measures.pdf

2. There are apparently only 10 "registered" rodenticides in the US:
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregist...skdecision.htm

3. Of those ten, here is a comparison (although the EPA said they all work):
http://www.qcsupply.com/media/pdf/li...Comparison.pdf

So, I'm still trying to figure out which is the best, but, it looks
like after a month or so, it won't matter because I won't be able
to get the raw blocks in the store once their supply runs out.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:19:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

Are these the same as in your pool equipment area?

Nah.

The poison is for the critters in the basement and garage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...bd49bdb0_o.jpg

I'm not sure *what* critters they are, but, they shred papers
and leave droppings, like this in my drawers, and on shelves:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/1...efb1e421_o.gif


If something is leaving droppings in your drawers, besides you. You got
big troubles Mr. I think the squirrels are after your nuts! Actually, a
squirrel probably did place that nut in the drawer.

On 12/2/2013 8:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

The poison is for the critters in the basement and garage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...bd49bdb0_o.jpg

I'm not sure *what* critters they are, but, they shred papers
and leave droppings, like this in my drawers, and on shelves:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/1...efb1e421_o.gif


Life's tough when someone is chewing on you,
and crapping in your drawers behind your back.

I'm thinking mice. D-Con works here.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:29:48 -0500, Jimbo wrote:

If something is leaving droppings in your drawers, besides you. You got
big troubles Mr. I think the squirrels are after your nuts! Actually, a
squirrel probably did place that nut in the drawer.

Googling for how to choose rodenticides, I found the NPIC, which
was closed, so I left a message at the National Pesticide Information
Center at 800-858-7378 asking what the law is on the availability of the
raw blocks & what's the most efficacious of the 10 registered rodenticides:

Apparently, these are the 10 registered rodenticides:

First-generation anticoagulants:
warfarin, chlorophacinone, and diphacinone.

Second-generation anticoagulants:
brodifacoum, bromadiolone, difenacoum, and difethialone

Non-anticoagulants: bromethalin,
cholecalciferol and zinc phosphide

BTW, only the three "B's" above were available at the hardware store
I visited in California today, and of those, I chose bromadiolone
as the most bang for the buck.

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:35:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'm thinking mice. D-Con works here.

I'm thinking mice also (but I really do not know).

Those droppings are only about 1/4 inch long.

Googling, I found this nice fact sheet which shows the
difference between single-dose and multiple-dose rodenticides:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/fac...s/2100fact.pdf

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:43:22 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Googling, I found this nice fact sheet which shows the
difference between single-dose and multiple-dose rodenticides:

Ooops. Wrong PDF.

This is the PDF I meant to reference that compares rodenticides:
npic.orst.edu/factsheets/rodenticides.pdf

Note: I just realized a gopher is also a rodent...

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 22:44:40 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

What works best for mouse/rat/gopher poison & in what concentration?

I use my old anti-stroke medicine. It contains warfarin too. One
capsule every 12 hours, with water.

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:26:28 -0500, micky wrote:

I use my old anti-stroke medicine. It contains warfarin too. One
capsule every 12 hours, with water.

Apparently warfarin is a multi-exposure anticoagulant which apparently
stops Vitamin K from doing its coagulating job.

If you're interested, here are the EPA restrictions on rodenticides:

Summary of New Restrictions
€œConsumer Size€� Products (Products containing ‰¤ 1 pound of bait)

May not contain brodifacoum, difethialone, bromadiolone, or difenacoum (the second-generation anticoagulants).
Loose bait forms such as pellets are prohibited.
Each retail unit must include a bait station.
Bait refills may be sold with bait stations in a single retail unit.
All outdoor above ground use must be in a bait station and be applied within 50 feet of buildings.

First Generation Anticoagulant and Non-Anticoagulant Products for Professional Users (Agricultural and PCO)

Products must contain at least four pounds of bait.
Bait stations are required for all outdoor, above-ground placements of first-generation anticoagulant and non-anticoagulant products.
Bait stations are required indoors if exposure to children, pets, or non-target animals is possible.
Distribution to and sales in €œconsumer€� stores including grocery stores, drug stores, hardware stores, club stores will be prohibited.
See the label for specific restrictions regarding outdoor applications.

Second-Generation Anticoagulant Products for Use Around Agricultural Buildings

Products must contain at least eight pounds of bait.
Bait stations are required for all outdoor, above-ground placements of second-generation anticoagulant products.
Bait stations are required indoors if exposure to children, pets, or non-target animals is possible.
Distribution to and sales in €œconsumer€� stores including grocery stores, drug stores, hardware stores, club stores will be prohibited.
See the label for specific restrictions regarding outdoor applications.

Second-Generation Anticoagulant Products for Professional Applicators

Products must contain at least 16 pounds of bait.
Bait stations are required for all outdoor, above-ground placements of second-generation anticoagulants.
Bait stations are required indoors if exposure to children, pets, or non-target animals is possible.
Distribution to and sales in €œconsumer€� stores including grocery stores, drug stores, hardware stores, club stores will be prohibited.
See the label for specific restrictions regarding outdoor applications.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 01:27:18 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

1. Get your bare poisons now

UPDATE:
I called the Feds at 800-858-7378 who told me that the Federal regulation
has been in effect quite a while so there shouldn't be any leftover bait
at the hardware stores (so I was lucky to find it at mine).

They said the states can add regulations, but that the states cannot
lessen the federal regulations, which basically make it improbable that a
consumer can obtain *just* the bait (without a bait station).

The law makes it hard for a consumer to get the *good stuff*, badly
defined as "second generation anticoagulants" but probably better defined
as single-use poisons.

They suggested this web site for consumers:
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregist...umer-prod.html
which I found less useful than the EPA made it out to be.

Luckily, the consumer can buy just bait (at much larger quantities) at
professional stores (whatever that means and wherever you can find them);
but you can't get just the bait at regular hardware stores.

They suggested I call the CA EPA Dept. of Pesticides at 916-445-4300 for
specific details on how my local store (who shall remain unnamed since
they're doing me a favor by selling the banned substances) can still be
selling just the bait.

I'm on the line with Lisa at the California Pesticide Department, but,
I'll report on that separately.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:23:44 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

UPDATE:
I called the Feds at 800-858-7378 who told me that the Federal
regulation
has been in effect quite a while so there shouldn't be any leftover bait
at the hardware stores (so I was lucky to find it at mine).

UPDATE:
I called the California Department of Pesticides, and first spoke to
Lisa who got worried about all my questions so she passed me to Ann
who handled the regulatory questions.

California, being the nanny state, does have additional restrictions
over and above what the EPA has (I know, you're shocked).

First off, for *two* reasons, the "Just One Bite II" Bromadiolone I
bought (EPA registration number 270-373) is illegal:
1. You can't sell bare bait anywhere in the USA at a box store
2. You can't sell 2nd-generation anti-coagulants in CA at a box store

Whew. I'm gonna run down to that hardware store and break the law a
few more times, 'cuz that's a crazy law. Ann *did* take the time to
try to explain to me the "why", which was this:

a) Bait stations protect the kids, the pets, and unwanted critters
b) Banning single-feed rodenticides protects the wildlife

The theory, Ann patiently explained, is that the single-feed
rodenticide builds up in the rodent before it dies, simply because
it feeds multiple times, thereby accruing a super-lethal dose; when
it dies, some other critter eats the dead critter, and then that
thing dies.

The theory is that, by banning multiple-feed rodenticides, the dose
will be at the Goldilocks level (i.e., just right) by the time the
rodent dies.

Hmmm....

Anyway, I asked about the *stores* and apparently the rule is really
hazy here. The rule is basically that only stores that cater to pros
can sell the bare bait, and even then, in 8 pound or greater sizes.

When I asked the question of whether I would have to lie and say I'm
a pro, Ann explained that California is *adding* to the EPA regulations
by making two licenses required. One is that the dealer has to be
licensed to sell the stuff; and the other is that the buy has to be
licensed to buy the stuff.

At the moment, this regulation hasn't been approved, but it's in the
works, so, my recommendation to anyone who *wants* bare bait, is to
get it now while you can.

As an aside, the TomCat Bromathalin that is sold at Home Depot and ACE
and Safeway, etc., is sold as a package of "bare bait" plus a bait box.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9828713...n/photostream/

When I pointedly asked Ann whether I could defeat the law simply by
buying the bare bait plus bait box and then throwing away the bait
box, she replied just as pointedly that that's why they want only
licensed dealers and buyers to get the bare bait.

Oh well, California is on to us. So, my recommendation? If you like
bare bait, get it while you can; and if you like single-feed rodenticides
in California, get them while you can too. Cuz' both will be gone soon,
if not already.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:36:34 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Whew. I'm gonna run down to that hardware store and break the law a
few more times, 'cuz that's a crazy law. Ann *did* take the time to
try to explain to me the "why", which was this:

I should mention that Ann kept telling me that the definition of
the law was the labeling on the package.

So, the consumer didn't break the law by *buying* the rodenticide,
but, if the consumer doesn't use the bait container, then the
consumer just broke the law, simply because the consumer didn't
follow the directions.

She stressed over and over again, when I asked about the law as
it pertained to the consumer, that the directions *are* the law.

So, in effect, you can be cited for not following directions.
(Don't tell my wife - 'cuz she'll turn me in in a split second!)

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 01:11:23 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:19:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

Are these the same as in your pool equipment area?

Nah.

The poison is for the critters in the basement and garage:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...bd49bdb0_o.jpg

I'm not sure *what* critters they are, but, they shred papers
and leave droppings, like this in my drawers, and on shelves:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/1...efb1e421_o.gif

Ask a "serpentologist" if you can borrow a few rat snakes. Not harmful
to you, just turn 'em loose in the basement for a month.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:30:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

Ask a "serpentologist" if you can borrow a few rat snakes. Not harmful
to you, just turn 'em loose in the basement for a month.

I could just buy a gopher snake, I guess.
Or not relocate the rattlers I find.

But, I think the bare Bromadiolone by the pound should work.

I'm going to get a couple more pounds tomorrow (since they're not going
to be sold anymore).

Three pounds should cover a garage, don't you think?

Danny D'Amico wrote in newsan.2013.12.02.22.44.42
@is.invalid:

What works best for mouse/rat/gopher poison & in what concentration?

I already use rat traps on the floor in out-of-the-way places, but,
in the basement drawers and shelves, I don't want a trap which might
snap on an unsuspecting human (nor would it fit in some spaces).

So I just want to drop a few pieces of poison in the drawers and
on the shelves that have droppings in them.

Today, I saw the following at the hardware store in California:

Brodifacoum 0.005%
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3819/1...c66159b9_o.gif

Bromadiolone 0.005%
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3809/1...e807f9f8_o.gif

Bromethalin 0.01%
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7339/1...78511828_o.gif

I couldn't find any chlorophacinone, or diphacinone; so I ended up
buying the cheapest they had, which was the Bromadiolone:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3698/1...d60e1e57_o.gif

But, for the next time, I wish to ask:

Q: What mouse/rat poison do you use for basement drawers & shelves
(and in what concentration)?


Any food that begins with Mc === McXxxxxx

On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
What works best for mouse/rat/gopher poison & in what concentration?

I already use rat traps on the floor in out-of-the-way places, but,
in the basement drawers and shelves, I don't want a trap which might
snap on an unsuspecting human (nor would it fit in some spaces).

So I just want to drop a few pieces of poison in the drawers and
on the shelves that have droppings in them.


The old stinky moth balls might be an alternative. Mice don't
like the smell any better than humans do. The moth balls seem to keep
the mice out of the bench drawers in the shop on our farm.
I put some moth balls in an old barn that skunks moved into. I
don't know if that got the skunks to move or if it was something else.
They're gone though.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:30:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

Ask a "serpentologist" if you can borrow a few rat
snakes. Not
harmful to you, just turn 'em loose in the basement for a
month.

I could just buy a gopher snake, I guess.
Or not relocate the rattlers I find.

But, I think the bare Bromadiolone by the pound should
work.

I'm going to get a couple more pounds tomorrow (since
they're not
going to be sold anymore).

Three pounds should cover a garage, don't you think?

if you have one near you, try a feed store.
you can get lots of things at a feed stores that you can't
get at your local borg.

On 12/3/2013 7:25 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The old stinky moth balls might be an alternative. Mice don't
like the smell any better than humans do. The moth balls seem to keep
the mice out of the bench drawers in the shop on our farm.
I put some moth balls in an old barn that skunks moved into. I
don't know if that got the skunks to move or if it was something else.
They're gone though.


Wonder if the old stinky mothballs might help
convince the pocket gophers to move away?

I've heard of it driving away mice, or skunks.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 22:26:31 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

I'm going to get a couple more pounds tomorrow
(since they're not going to be sold any more).

I picked up two pounds of the stuff. I'll put it in storage.
If the mice/rats/whatever-they-are chew through the package,
I'll be within the rules then, as it's a "bait trap".

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 00:08:47 -0600, ChairMan wrote:

if you have one near you, try a feed store.
you can get lots of things at a feed stores that you can't
get at your local borg.

I'm in the Silicon Valley. I'm not sure where to go,
but, for now, I'm fine (since I just bought two more
pounds of the bare bromadiolone).

When I next go to the landscaping shops (for the
glyphosate weed killer for the poison oak), I'll check
to see if they also sell rodenticides.

In short, I'm ok now - but what I learned is that you
and I can no longer buy the single-feeding rodenticides,
and, we can no longer buy it without a bait trap, except
at pro shops (and, soon, in California, only if you're
licensed to use the stuff).

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:43:20 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Wonder if the old stinky mothballs might help
convince the pocket gophers to move away?

I'm shocked, but, the 10,000 gallons of water *did*
seem to drive my gopher away from two of my "lawns".

Here's a shot from a few minutes ago, where there were multiple
gopher piles a few days ago, and where I put a hose for many
hours over a period of two days (about 5,000 gallons).

Still clean.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/1...1f69b007_o.gif

This is what that looked like just a week or so ago:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2829/1...a4710336_o.gif

So, now I can put the wood chips on that "lawn" so I'll never
have to mow it ever again!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7322/1...ac2ec144_o.gif

In article ,
Danny D'Amico wrote:

What works best for mouse/rat/gopher poison & in what concentration?

No one has mentioned that dead rodents have a foul smell that lasts a
long time!

After using the blue crystals and having the long lasting smell, I found
a rat poison that looked like a fat granola bar. According to the
dealer where I bought it, the rats eat it but do not die right away.
They become thirsty and have to go outside to find water. The poison
kills them when they drink, so they die outside.

I don't know if this is description is correct or not, but it got rid of
the rats with no odor. This was from five or ten years ago, and I do
not know the name of the poison.

Fred

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:44:40 -0500, Fred McKenzie wrote:

According to the dealer where I bought it, the rats eat it but
do not die right away. They become thirsty and have to go outside
to find water. The poison kills them when they drink, so they die outside.

Hmmmm.... I didn't read that, but I wasn't looking for that description
when I looked up the ten registered rodenticides.

Based on this PDF: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/rodenticides.pdf

These are the multi-dose anti-coagulants:
warfarin, chlorophacinone, and diphacinone

These are the single-dose anti-coagulants:
brodifacoum, bromadiolone, and difethialone

This makes the brain swell until the rodent dies:
bromethalin

This is vitamin D3 which basically poisons them with calcium:
cholecalciferol

This causes muscle spasms which interfere with breathing:
strychnine

This turns into a deadly internal gas in the presence of acidic water:
zinc phosphide

Given that, I'm guessing your dealer is likely talking about zinc phosphide.
I looked at the symptoms for humans, and there's no mention of thirst though.

I looked a bit at the Wikipedia for rodenticides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodenticide

It mentions that Zinc Phosphide makes rats die outside, but, it doesn't
mention thirst or drinking water at all. Anyway, the body is full of water,
so, it would work in the stomach anyway (which has HCL & water inside).

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 02:11:17 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

It mentions that Zinc Phosphide makes rats die outside, but, it doesn't
mention thirst or drinking water at all. Anyway, the body is full of water,
so, it would work in the stomach anyway (which has HCL & water inside).

This article on how Zinc Phosphide works doesn't cover thirst at all:
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/znpgen.html

Neither does this article on the same topic:
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/__data/as...sphide-PA3.pdf

This one *does* mention thirst though:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pds/pds/pest24_e.htm

But, all in all, I suspect your dealer is making stuff up
(but maybe it's a different chemical that induces that thirst?).

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:44:40 -0500, Fred McKenzie wrote:

According to the
dealer where I bought it, the rats eat it but do not die right away.
They become thirsty and have to go outside to find water. The poison
kills them when they drink, so they die outside.

This says outright that this is a big fat lie:
http://www.howtogetridofrat.com/poison-thirsty.html
http://www.aaanimalcontrol.com/blog/ratpoison.html

This says it's a half truth:
http://www.pest-advice.com/2011/04/d...ith-their.html

Pretty much, I read a few dozen articles on how rat poisons work, and,
the topic didn't come up about them getting thirsty and dying outside
instead of inside.

I call their bluff!