bob haller wrote:
turn off the main breaker, do you still feel the shock?

So you're suggesting he actually attempt to shock himself? That seems just
a tad irresponsible.

How about suggesting a meter instead of "do you feel the shock"?

....other irresponsible suggestions ending with "do you feel the shock"
snipped...


if not plug one thing in at a time.......

doing this preliminary work will save the electrician time and you money.


....or it could kill him.



in any case if in doubt get a electrician there ASAP which isnt wednesday.
THIS CAN KILL YOU

....yet you suggest he try some things and see if he "still feels the
shock".

Wow!

feel the shock was not good advice.

meter should be used!

Do note if PEX or other non metallic pipes are use the power could originate from a neighbor.

so the first step is turn off all power and check for voltage ........

" wrote:
Our ring voltage was 90v for most of my lifetime but I found out from
AT&T that it somewhat recently changed to 45v. I guess the new landline
phones have a better ringer than the old rotary dial types.

The local phone companies have been improving their outside plant
facilities, and the result is that there are fewer very long customer
lines with high resistance wiring so that not as much voltage is needed
to get the same voltage at the customer as before. Also, actual bell
type ringers are non-existent any more, and the electronic-based ringers
can work on much lower voltages.

I have a bell ringer in the garage, and an old ringer wall phone in the
kitchen. Both work off my comcast box. I also have several other electronic
phones. One table phone will ring without wall wart plugged in.

Greg

" wrote:
Our ring voltage was 90v for most of my lifetime but I found out from
AT&T that it somewhat recently changed to 45v. I guess the new landline
phones have a better ringer than the old rotary dial types.

The local phone companies have been improving their outside plant
facilities, and the result is that there are fewer very long customer
lines with high resistance wiring so that not as much voltage is needed
to get the same voltage at the customer as before. Also, actual bell
type ringers are non-existent any more, and the electronic-based ringers
can work on much lower voltages.

I believe I have what you refer to as "bell type ringer" in my shop. It's
an old slimline wall phone...

http://tinyurl.com/Slimline-Phone

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AT-T-Beige-S...-/400573924346

It's connected to my TWC router and rings quite nicely...well, it would if
I turned the ringer on. Now it just clicks quietly since I have the ringer
turned down as low as possible.

"gregz" wrote in message
news:829564673404614943.943667zekor-

stuff snipped

Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a
zap
or
is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do you have
plastic
water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the time or just when the
humidity is very low? Do you have an electric water heater or gas
unit?

--
Bobby G.

No carpet in basement. There's a constant tingling, and the pipes are
copper. This happens all the time, in fact, I just got shocked off the
kitchen faucet, which is a first! The water heater is gas. The problem
appears to be getting worse.

Tingling is much better than zapped. Depends on what part of your body is
making the path, and what your wearing. When I was a lot younger, I
started
getting tingling in the shower piping standing on cement floor. Turned out
to be bad bypass connection on water meter. Could have been bad for me.

Yes, it sure could have! From what I've been reading about the problem on
various websites, the shower scenario is typically the most lethal one. The
supply pipes, for whatever reason (and there are many possible ones) become
ungrounded and energized while the drain pipe for the shower still makes a
good ground. Your naked and wet body makes the circuit complete. OUCH!

That house was a 1960 model. Wiring code now is much better, but
connections are connections.

There are many possible causes and the water meter bypass is but one of
them. Older houses are more susceptible to the problem because of the
laxity of the older electrical codes and the possibility that any number of
previous occupants have done something stupid.

Fred, if you're reading this, unless you consider yourself very
knowledgeable about electricity, I would defer to a professional at this
point. While I like to encourage people in AHR to expand their horizons and
tackle tough jobs, this is one that is too risky to try to solve on your
own. I would watch what a professional does and ask lots of questions,
though, so I might be better prepared to deal with a similar occurrence in
the future. I bought a house that had been modified by a very amatuer
electrician and the surprises kept coming for years and years. )-;

--
Bobby G.

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
theres a possiblity the power source could be a neighbors malfunctiong
whatever

There are so many possible causes it's time for a pro and maybe even an
alert to the power and water companies. The risk there is that if the power
people find a serious enough fault, they will disconnect your service.

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your
piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,
one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,
two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were
properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.

I suspect an electrician might also recommend either GFCI breakers or
outlets to cover any of the areas that are exhibiting shock problems. If it
were my house, that's what I would do (and did) although I learned the hard
way that I needed to run a separate, non-GFCI protected line to the
refrigerator. DAMHIKT. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Fred" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I got a call in to an electrician, they will be out Wednesday. Now you're
making me nervous if I should even use the shower tonight or not.

Definitely not. You've got a serious issue and the shower could very likely
kill you since the supply pipe seems to be hot and the drain pipe is likely
still a very good ground. If you can't get a "sparky" out sooner than
Wednesday I would suggest calling the power company just to see what they
would recommend although there's a risk that if they send someone out,
they'll cut your power off until you can prove it's repaired.

--
Bobby G.

"Fred" wrote in message
...

Ok, this is way weird. I just was going to replace a toilet flapper. I
went to turn the shut off valve, and got zapped, big time!

Time to call the pros. What else were you touching when you touched the
shut-off valve? To feel a shock, the current has to be flowing from the
valve, through your body to somewhere else to complete the circuit.

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
stuff snipped

If you have a voltmeter or test light, measure voltage from a copper
pipe to a good ground (usually the copper pipe *would* be a good ground,
but in this case it is apparently not! Try a grounded receptacle.)

Not sure if that's going to work if the ground is energized. There's also
the problem of phantom voltage readings if he's using a digital meter that
might make the readings meaningless. I've been researching this problem on
the net out of curiousity and there are lots and lots of potential causes.
So many that it's a problem best left to a licensed professional.

The copper supply piping may have once been connected to a ground but a
repair with a plastic union of some sort has isolated a section of the pipe
which is touching something electrical and is now energized. Since there
are so many possibilities, it's time for Fred, the OP, to call in the
cavalry now that we know it's not a simple static shock.

I'm
guessing you'll find there is some. Unplug any appliance that connects
to water line one at a time (clothes washer, refrigerator with ice maker
are the two obvious ones; water softener if you have it, etc.) until you
find the faulty one. Leave that one unplugged until it's fixed.

If you've unplugged everything and you still have voltage on the pipes,
start turning off breakers one by one until it goes away. Then
depending on your skill level you can find the issue or give a pro a
good place to start troubleshooting (and be safe in the meantime.)

I agree that the OP should be tracing the pipes *visually* to locate
possible contact points, clamps with wires leading from them and places
where there might be a plastic union, but it's a serious enough problem to
defer to an electrician that has experience with such issues.

Consider driving some ground rods, and bonding your panel and plumbing
system so this doesn't happen again!

I suspect that's going to be part of the solution a qualified sparky will
recommend. Something's rotten in Denmark, and it could be more than one
problem which makes it really hard for a homeowner to isolate and fix. I
say Fred's exceptionally lucky he detected this problem before he stepped
into what might have been his last shower on Earth. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On 10/27/2013 9:09 PM, gregz wrote:

although a water line might be getting in contact with a power line.

in any case if in doubt get a electrician there ASAP which isnt wednesday.
THIS CAN KILL YOU

Feel the shock ? !!!

Greg


After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:04:38 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

...

"Fred" wrote in :





I got a call in to an electrician, they will be out Wednesday. Now

you're

making me nervous if I should even use the shower tonight or not.



Do you feel lucky?



NO, you should not. It might be the last shower you ever take.



Agreed. Now that we know a little more about the situation, if the supply

pipes are energized and they are not grounded it's very likely the drain

pipe IS grounded and taking a shower will complete the circuit to ground.

Through you.



If you can't get an electrician in on Monday I would consider calling either

the electric and.or the water company. If *your* pipes are energized it

could be very likely that your neighbor's are, too.

Not very likely IMO. Just because his house has screwed up
wiring, doesn't mean the neighbor's house does.




It could present a

hazard beyond your house and they have the proper test equipment to trace

the fault.



If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not

touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply

lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the

furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer

code).



Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer
code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are
supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,
what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for
anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose
this serious problem?

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:22:03 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/27/2013 02:47 PM, Fred wrote:

"Robert Green" wrote in message

...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

...

"Fred" wrote in :



How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my

bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's a

good

enough zap to make you jump.



You have at least two problems: a fault in your electrical system

somewhere is energizing that

pipe, and the pipe itself is not properly grounded.



Get a qualified electrician out to look at this ASAP: this could be

fatal.



It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a static

electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on the former

because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard to energize them

to

the point of getting a shock unless you're touching something that's an

even

better ground. If walking on a carpet has given your body a static

electric

charge then it could be easily dumped to ground when you touch a faucet

or

some other metal part of the plumbing.



Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a zap

or

is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do you have

plastic

water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the time or just when the

humidity is very low? Do you have an electric water heater or gas unit?



--

Bobby G.



No carpet in basement. There's a constant tingling, and the pipes are

copper. This happens all the time, in fact, I just got shocked off the

kitchen faucet, which is a first! The water heater is gas. The problem

appears to be getting worse.





If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your

piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,

one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,

two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were

properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.


The breaker would only trip if:

A - It's a GFCI breaker
or
B - The fault current flowing exceeded the breaker rating.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:42:35 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message



stuff snipped



If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your

piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,

one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,

two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were

properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.



I suspect an electrician might also recommend either GFCI breakers or

outlets to cover any of the areas that are exhibiting shock problems. If it

were my house, that's what I would do (and did) although I learned the hard

way that I needed to run a separate, non-GFCI protected line to the

refrigerator. DAMHIKT. (-:


More nonsense. Put in GFCI breakers and they will just trip.
As others have pointed out, the source of how the pipes are
getting energized needs to be found and the pipes need to
be properly grounded.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:22:08 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"gregz" wrote in message

news:829564673404614943.943667zekor-



stuff snipped



Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a

zap

or

is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do you have

plastic

water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the time or just when the

humidity is very low? Do you have an electric water heater or gas

unit?



--

Bobby G.



No carpet in basement. There's a constant tingling, and the pipes are

copper. This happens all the time, in fact, I just got shocked off the

kitchen faucet, which is a first! The water heater is gas. The problem

appears to be getting worse.



Tingling is much better than zapped. Depends on what part of your body is

making the path, and what your wearing. When I was a lot younger, I

started

getting tingling in the shower piping standing on cement floor. Turned out

to be bad bypass connection on water meter. Could have been bad for me.



Yes, it sure could have! From what I've been reading about the problem on

various websites, the shower scenario is typically the most lethal one. The

supply pipes, for whatever reason (and there are many possible ones) become

ungrounded and energized while the drain pipe for the shower still makes a

good ground. Your naked and wet body makes the circuit complete. OUCH!



That house was a 1960 model. Wiring code now is much better, but

connections are connections.



There are many possible causes and the water meter bypass is but one of

them. Older houses are more susceptible to the problem because of the

laxity of the older electrical codes and the possibility that any number of

previous occupants have done something stupid.



Did you live there previously?




Fred, if you're reading this, unless you consider yourself very

knowledgeable about electricity, I would defer to a professional at this

point.

Good grief. If he was very knowledgeable about electricity
he wouldn't be here asking the questions he's asked.

On 10/28/2013 8:17 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:22:03 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your
piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,
one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,
two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were
properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.

The breaker would only trip if:

A - It's a GFCI breaker
or
B - The fault current flowing exceeded the breaker rating.

Buzzed piping is drunk piping. Electrons will see you
before you see them. It's not worth it. You could lose
your electrical license, and the fines are extreme.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/27/2013 06:05 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:20:19 PM UTC-5, Fred wrote:
How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my
bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's
a good enough zap to make you jump.

Our OP has not said if he is barefooted, what else he was touching
when he got the shock. But it does seem to NOT BE a static
electricity thing since he states it is more or less continuous in
one of his posts.


i can feel 120VAC when touching a live conductor even while wearing
insulated boots. And no, that is not something that I recommend that
you do intentionally.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/27/2013 06:52 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 17:26:24 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 10/27/2013 03:19 PM, Bill wrote:
Fred wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"TomR" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"Fred" wrote in
:

How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my
bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's
a good enough zap to make you jump.
It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a static
electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on the former
because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard to energize
them to the point of getting a shock unless you're touching something
that's an even better ground. If walking on a carpet has given your
body a static electric charge then it could be easily dumped to
ground when you touch a faucet or some other metal part of the
plumbing.

Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a
zap or is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do
you have plastic water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the
time or just when the humidity is very low? Do you have an electric
water heater or gas unit?
All good questions. Hopefully, the OP (Fred) will reply back.
Thanks. I thought it was a bit premature to call in the cavalry because
the
word "zap" in the original post made me think "static shock" and not
110VAC.
But it always pays to be careful and I think with the right questions
(and
perhaps some testing) we can help the OP determine what's going on.

--
Bobby G.


Ok, this is way weird. I just was going to replace a toilet flapper. I
went to turn the shut off valve, and got zapped, big time!

It's not that weird. As has been pointed out, some malfunctioning
appliance is grounded to your plumbing. As has been suggested, get a
professional to isolate the problem before someone gets hurt!




If you have a voltmeter or test light, measure voltage from a copper
pipe to a good ground (usually the copper pipe *would* be a good ground,
but in this case it is apparently not! Try a grounded receptacle.) I'm
guessing you'll find there is some. Unplug any appliance that connects
to water line one at a time (clothes washer, refrigerator with ice maker
are the two obvious ones; water softener if you have it, etc.) until you
find the faulty one. Leave that one unplugged until it's fixed.

If you've unplugged everything and you still have voltage on the pipes,
start turning off breakers one by one until it goes away. Then
depending on your skill level you can find the issue or give a pro a
good place to start troubleshooting (and be safe in the meantime.)

Consider driving some ground rods, and bonding your panel and plumbing
system so this doesn't happen again!

nate
FIRST thing to check is the jumper pver the water meter - make sure
the copper piping IS grounded. Once it is grounded there is a pretty
good chance a breaker will "pop", telling you where the problem is.
Just grab a booster cable to do the temporary ground - see if that
fixes it.


Good point; I didn't think of that as it's been 30 years or more since I
lived in a house with a water meter actually indoors - but if you do
have that kind of setup definitely there should be a jumper across it.

Next thing to check for is a heavy bonding wire between the same area
and the main electrical panel. (was the main feed from the city water
line originally copper or galvanized but recently replaced with PVC?)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/27/2013 07:36 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
bob haller wrote in news:276d23a2-9ba4-484d-ab23-15e1ed94a724
@googlegroups.com:

turn off the main breaker, do you still feel the shock?

if not turn on main breaker and leave all other breakers off....
do you feel shock?

if not turn on one breaker at a time till you find the one that causes the shock

note whats on that breaker and unplug everything ..... do you still feel shock?

You f*cking moron. You tell him to look for leaks of 120VAC current by feeling for them -- I bet
you'd tell him to look for gas leaks with a match, too.

I have actually seen people do that...

I always wanted to ask what they'd do if they actually found a leak.

Somehow soapy water seems like a better idea to me, but what do I know.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/27/2013 09:05 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 15:05:59 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:20:19 PM UTC-5, Fred wrote:
How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my
bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's a good
enough zap to make you jump.

Our OP has not said if he is barefooted, what else he was touching when
he got the shock.

But it does seem to NOT BE a static electricity thing since he states it is
more or less continuous in one of his posts.

He also says it is intermittent. Which points to a high possibility
it is a water heater problem.

I don't see the water heater being a problem because I asked what type he
had and he replied that it was gas. I would expect a current leak to come
from an electric heater, but not a gas heater, but there is electricity
going to modern gas heaters, so it's not out of the question. Just a lot
less likely IMHO.

Now that it seems to be clearly not a static electricity problem, I advise
not touching the plumbing until it's resolved. Who knows why the copper
pipes are energized? There are any number of reasons including events
outside the house that could account for it. It does seem very odd that the
problem appeared first only in the basement and seems to be spreading.

--
Bobby G.



I'm guessing that it was only the basement because that's the only
faucet with metal handles in the house. Then he noticed it on a toilet
shutoff valve, older models of which also would have metal handles.
You'd think the kitchen faucet would as well, but some of them have
"chrome" plated plastic handles including some better brands.

I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the
problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for
voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify
that issue has gone away. Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,
but it beats the heck out of being found electrified in a shower stall.

As others have said, CHECK with voltmeter or test light though. It is
unlikely but still theoretically possible that the problem may be
originating outside the house, or prior to the main breaker (which can
be really dangerous.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/27/2013 11:40 PM, gregz wrote:
" wrote:
Our ring voltage was 90v for most of my lifetime but I found out from
AT&T that it somewhat recently changed to 45v. I guess the new landline
phones have a better ringer than the old rotary dial types.

The local phone companies have been improving their outside plant
facilities, and the result is that there are fewer very long customer
lines with high resistance wiring so that not as much voltage is needed
to get the same voltage at the customer as before. Also, actual bell
type ringers are non-existent any more, and the electronic-based ringers
can work on much lower voltages.

I have a bell ringer in the garage, and an old ringer wall phone in the
kitchen. Both work off my comcast box. I also have several other electronic
phones. One table phone will ring without wall wart plugged in.

Greg


Yes, I have an old wall mount Western Electric phone (late 40's) in the
kitchen, was pleased to find that it does in fact work on the fake POTS
line that comes out of the FiOS box

It also scares the hell out of the cat when the phone rings (unlike the
little Panasonic cordless phones elsewhere in the house) which I think
is amusing.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/28/2013 08:17 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:22:03 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/27/2013 02:47 PM, Fred wrote:

"Robert Green" wrote in message

...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

...

"Fred" wrote in :



How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my

bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's a

good

enough zap to make you jump.



You have at least two problems: a fault in your electrical system

somewhere is energizing that

pipe, and the pipe itself is not properly grounded.



Get a qualified electrician out to look at this ASAP: this could be

fatal.



It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a static

electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on the former

because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard to energize them

to

the point of getting a shock unless you're touching something that's an

even

better ground. If walking on a carpet has given your body a static

electric

charge then it could be easily dumped to ground when you touch a faucet

or

some other metal part of the plumbing.



Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a zap

or

is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do you have

plastic

water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the time or just when the

humidity is very low? Do you have an electric water heater or gas unit?



--

Bobby G.



No carpet in basement. There's a constant tingling, and the pipes are

copper. This happens all the time, in fact, I just got shocked off the

kitchen faucet, which is a first! The water heater is gas. The problem

appears to be getting worse.





If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your

piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,

one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,

two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were

properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.


The breaker would only trip if:

A - It's a GFCI breaker
or
B - The fault current flowing exceeded the breaker rating.


True, but if the piping were grounded then B) would be true, *except* in
the instance where it is a neutral wire in an appliance that is
connected to the water piping system not a hot, in which case unplugging
the appliance would "fix" the problem (and it'd be easy to guess which
appliance it is, as the issue would only show up when the appliance was
being used.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:
snip




If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not

touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply

lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the

furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer

code).



Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer
code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are
supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,
what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for
anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose
this serious problem?





He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I'm guessing that it was only the basement because that's the only
faucet with metal handles in the house. Then he noticed it on a toilet
shutoff valve, older models of which also would have metal handles.
You'd think the kitchen faucet would as well, but some of them have
"chrome" plated plastic handles including some better brands.

Good observation. I think what we're seeing is that when he's in contact
with metal touching the supply lines and touching something that might be
connected to the drain he's getting a shock.

It's far more likely the supply lines have been repaired and are no longer
in good contact with the ground than the drain lines got interrupted
somehow. Touching the J trap under the sink with your body while turning
the shut-off valve could present a live-to-ground circuit through Fred with
just enough current to tingle.

However, touching a metal shower handle or arm while one's feet are in
contact with the floor drain will pass current through the OP, too. For as
long as it takes for him to fall down dead.

)-:

I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the
problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for
voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify
that issue has gone away.

Good idea. I would even check for current AFTER I turned off the main
breaker because we still don't know where the current is coming from.

Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,
but it beats the heck out of being found electrified in a shower stall.

Amen.

As others have said, CHECK with voltmeter or test light though. It is
unlikely but still theoretically possible that the problem may be
originating outside the house, or prior to the main breaker (which can
be really dangerous.)

There are SO MANY potential causes that it's really best to be safe, not
sorry. I would call the power company about this just to make sure that the
neighbors are safe.

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Next thing to check for is a heavy bonding wire between the same area
and the main electrical panel. (was the main feed from the city water
line originally copper or galvanized but recently replaced with PVC?)

It's clear why grounding to water pipes isn't the great idea it used to be
even though in many old houses (like mine) you'll still find plenty of
clamps attached to supply lines. The mains could be PVC, repairs in the
house, even if it has copper plumbing could be plastic, etc.

Undertrained, underpaid cable jockeys find it's a hell of lot easier to
ground a CATV line to a nearby water pipe than it is to run a cable to the
circuit box where you can attach to a proper grounded conductor. A defect
in the attached equipment can then energize the section of isolated pipe
without tripping a breaker, which might be what's happening here.

--
Bobby G.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo* wrote:
On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:

snip









If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not



touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply



lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the



furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer



code).







Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?











He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line


And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be
grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code
requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the
house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.

And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable
or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water
pipe near where they enter the building. It's not
a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.

And it's all pointless anyway, because the OP
clearly doesn't have the skills to figure out what
is or isn't the problem anyway.

"philo " wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:

Trader's signature boatload of triple spaced quotes snipped and cleaned
up

If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but
not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and
the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no
longer
code).

Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer
code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are
supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,
what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for
anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose
this serious problem?

He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be

Thanks, Philo, for pointing out what I actually said rather than what a very
angry Trader *claims* I said. This is precisely why it's mostly useless to
argue with him since he'll stuff words in your mouth and then berate you for
saying something you never said. sigh

It's too bad, too, because when he's not enslaved to his own anger, he's a
fairly astute diagnostician. That's the only reason I haven't yet plonked
him. He occasionally offers some valuable insights. If only he could learn
to control his anger . . .

--
Bobby G.

On 10/28/2013 09:50 AM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:

snip









If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not



touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply



lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the



furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer



code).







Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?











He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line


And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be
grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code
requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the
house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.

Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service
could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it
functionally can work that way, but it is not code compliant to rely on
the water service for the ground. However, you are still required to
*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's
metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that
identical connection is very different.

A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the
electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network
of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary
means of grounding.

The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel,
although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and
that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of
ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of
accomplishing the same thing.



And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable
or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water
pipe near where they enter the building. It's not
a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.

Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal
water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that
needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.

It would appear from the OP's message that his house is one of those
special cases that illustrates just *why* this change in code was made;
clearly he does not have a modern code compliant grounding network
and/or the water pipes inside the house are not bonded to same, and the
water service is not providing a good ground either because a jumper
over an insulating element like a meter is missing/corroded or a metal
service has been replaced by ABS or some nonconductive material.

And it's all pointless anyway, because the OP
clearly doesn't have the skills to figure out what
is or isn't the problem anyway.

We can always learn. But this is one of those things that needs to be
approached with caution...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/28/2013 09:38 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I'm guessing that it was only the basement because that's the only
faucet with metal handles in the house. Then he noticed it on a toilet
shutoff valve, older models of which also would have metal handles.
You'd think the kitchen faucet would as well, but some of them have
"chrome" plated plastic handles including some better brands.

Good observation. I think what we're seeing is that when he's in contact
with metal touching the supply lines and touching something that might be
connected to the drain he's getting a shock.

It's far more likely the supply lines have been repaired and are no longer
in good contact with the ground than the drain lines got interrupted
somehow. Touching the J trap under the sink with your body while turning
the shut-off valve could present a live-to-ground circuit through Fred with
just enough current to tingle.

However, touching a metal shower handle or arm while one's feet are in
contact with the floor drain will pass current through the OP, too. For as
long as it takes for him to fall down dead.

)-:

I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the
problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for
voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify
that issue has gone away.

Good idea. I would even check for current AFTER I turned off the main
breaker because we still don't know where the current is coming from.

Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,
but it beats the heck out of being found electrified in a shower stall.

Amen.

As others have said, CHECK with voltmeter or test light though. It is
unlikely but still theoretically possible that the problem may be
originating outside the house, or prior to the main breaker (which can
be really dangerous.)

There are SO MANY potential causes that it's really best to be safe, not
sorry. I would call the power company about this just to make sure that the
neighbors are safe.

--
Bobby G.




DEFINITELY if there is voltage present on a metal water pipe or faucet
with the main breaker turned off the power company needs to be notified
IMMEDIATELY as that would imply that the problem is either with an
unfused service entrance conductor touching a water pipe (VERY VERY
DANGEROUS) or another problem completely outside the house, which is
going to likely be not OP's problem but the power company's problem.

If that is the case, taking a shower is right out of the question, and
the issue needs to be addressed immediately.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote in message news:149d8e52-b469-4acd-a281-
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:04:38 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
"Fred" wrote in
:






Yet more of Trader's signature triple spaced untrimmed material snipped -
are you EVER going to learn how to post correctly to Usenet, Trader? I'll
fix the rest of the quoting that you're either too dumb or too lazy to fix
by removing all the idiotic triple spaced air that ****s up each and every
one of your posts

I got a call in to an electrician, they will be out Wednesday. Now

NO, you should not. It might be the last shower you ever take.

Agreed. Now that we know a little more about the situation, if the
supply
pipes are energized and they are not grounded it's very likely the drain
pipe IS grounded and taking a shower will complete the circuit to
ground.
Through you.

If you can't get an electrician in on Monday I would consider calling
either
the electric and.or the water company. If *your* pipes are energized it
could be very likely that your neighbor's are, too.

Not very likely IMO. Just because his house has screwed up
wiring, doesn't mean the neighbor's house does.

Your opinion isn't worth very much where someone's life could be at risk.
If his pipes are energized and they are connected metal-to-metal with the
neighbor's, they could be energized as well. We just don't know at this
point and in such cases it's better to be safe than sorry.

It could present a hazard beyond your house and they have the proper
test equipment to
trace the fault.

If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and
the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no
longer
code).

Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer
code to have those things grounded?

Read carefully again, Trader. I know it's hard when you get angry and are
determined to turn things personal. I *never* said it wasn't code to have
those things grounded. I said they are places to look for IMPROPER
grounding techniques. The electrician is likely going to want to know about
every place a wire is connected to a water pipe. Fred can assist by mapping
those out before he arrives. Very simple.

At least Philo knew I was specifically talking about ground wire connections
made to water pipes at random places in the house. That's very clear to
anyone but a raging flamer like you. Is that still code in NJ? I doubt it.
They stopped approving such grounding methods *precisely* because of what's
happened in Fred's case. It's too easy for a repair using plastic plumbing
materials that then makes such clamp grounds located far from the circuit
panel ineffective.

In fact they all are
supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,
what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for
anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose
this serious problem?

"Good grief?" Have you morphed into Charly Brown from Peanuts? Will you
ever get your head on straight? It's code to have them grounded PROPERLY.
Attaching grounding clamps to different pipes located around the house, as
may be the case here (we don't really know) is no longer code, AFAIK.
Things may be different on your planet. Something's different on your
planet, that's for sure and whatever it is, it's not good!

Even if he doesn't have to have the skills to diagnose the problem, he can
still help the electrician by looking at the plumbing to find possible
contact points with the electrical service.

Being able to quickly point out all the possible problem areas to the
electrician might save him some time and money. I think, given his apparent
skill level, it would be a better use of his time than attaching meters to
various things where he might not be able to interpret the readings
correctly or worse, testing pipes for current with his bare hands. Yikes!

I love it when you let your anger take over, Trader. It's so *easy* to make
you look like an angry fool who has more interest in slamming someone you're
mad at rather than attempting to help the OP solve the problem. It's sad
because your diagnostic skills are usually quite good but they evaporate
like rain in Death Valley when you go on the warpath. Like now.

Ever wonder why the fence lady never came back? It might have had something
to do with your bellicose nature and your rather dumb advice to call the
cops or file a lawsuit. Just because someone temporarily piled up some dirt
on her lawn (charitable interpretation - it looked like bare dirt) trying to
improve the property. Jeez.

Remember that *you* turned this thread personal, Trader. I'm just finishing
what you insisted on starting. People like the fence lady don't come back
because you get all nasty and personal like this all the time. Maybe that
wouldn't happen if you could find a way to keep your pecker in your pants
and your political and personal animus out of technical threads. I don't
hold out much hope for that. You've established a sad and voluminous track
record of not being able to control yourself.

I'll bet it doesn't quite taste so good to get a big dose of your own bad
medicine, does it, Chet? I wonder why you had to stop using your real name
and start hiding behind a pen name? I can guess - you ****ed some people
off so much they came looking for you.

Now go play in the yard, Trader/Chet, you're not being very useful here.
The adults have work to do.

--
Bobby G.

On 10/28/2013 09:05 AM, Robert Green wrote:


snip
He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be

Thanks, Philo, for pointing out what I actually said rather than what a very
angry Trader *claims* I said. This is precisely why it's mostly useless to
argue with him since he'll stuff words in your mouth and then berate you for
saying something you never said. sigh

It's too bad, too, because when he's not enslaved to his own anger, he's a
fairly astute diagnostician. That's the only reason I haven't yet plonked
him. He occasionally offers some valuable insights. If only he could learn
to control his anger . . .



Yep, that's one problem with human nature and Usenet.

Two people who probably agree on something making a simple
mis-interpretation then going ballistic with anger.


At any rate, this issue is something the OP should in no way be fooling
with. The worst advice was given by the guy who said ...try this and
then see if you still get a shock.


Also: Once the problem is fixed, the suggestion to install ground fault
outlets in laundry, bathroom and kitchen areas...is a good suggestion.


--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be

wrote in message
...
On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:42:35 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message



stuff snipped



If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your

piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,

one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,

two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were

properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage
source.



I suspect an electrician might also recommend either GFCI breakers or

outlets to cover any of the areas that are exhibiting shock problems.
If it

were my house, that's what I would do (and did) although I learned the
hard

way that I needed to run a separate, non-GFCI protected line to the

refrigerator. DAMHIKT. (-:


More nonsense.

You're on an idiot roll this morning, aren't you Trader?

Put in GFCI breakers and they will just trip.

AND THEY MIGHT JUST SAVE HIS LIFE IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN.

Obviously that's too hard for your tiny little pea brain to comprehend.
Fortunately the folks that write the NEC get it and that's why GFCI's are
required by code. Jeez, when you get a hair up your fat, ugly ass, you sure
do lose IQ points. I'm more than happy to help you show how your temper
betrays your intellect.

As others have pointed out, the source of how the pipes are
getting energized needs to be found and the pipes need to
be properly grounded.

No one ever said that they didn't. Read my several posts on his need to get
a qualified electrician in to fix the problem and you'll see you just made a
fool of yourself tripping over your own anger. Again. Don't you get tired
of making yourself look stupid AND petty?

If you re-read what I wrote s*l*o*w*l*y this time, you'll see I said the
electrician might ALSO recommend adding GFCIs. The implication is that
after he finds and fixes the current problem, he'll do something to make
sure if it ever happens again, the circuit will be protected and he won't be
shocked in any way.

I guess that's just too much for you to understand Trader. No wonder you
can't understand what Bud was trying to explain about the ACA. You have
some serious mental blockages. Try taking a TSP brain enema to clear them.
(-: Education and patient explanations don't seem to work.

Why do you insist on making yourself look foolish? You actually have a
rather keen diagnostic mind when you don't let your emotions or your
politics make an idiot out of you. Such a tragedy.

--
Bobby G.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:16:23 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 09:50 AM, wrote:

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:

On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:



snip



















If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not







touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply







lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the







furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer







code).















Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer



code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are



supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,



what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for



anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose



this serious problem?























He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line





And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be

grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code

requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the

house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.



Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service

could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it

functionally can work that way, but it is not code compliant to rely on

the water service for the ground.

It's not code compliant for the water service pipe to be the
*only* grounding electrode, but it is code compliant for the
water service pipe to be used as one of the grounding electrodes.




However, you are still required to

*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's

metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that

identical connection is very different.



No it's not, because per code the water pipe may serve as
a grounding electrode. It's not just a bonding issue.



A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the

electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network

of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary

means of grounding.



I don't believe NEC distinguishes and calls any one method
the primary ground. And there are other and better methods
of grounding in new constructions, Ufer being an example.
They do require that a water pipe can't be the only grounding
electrode.





The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel,

although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and

that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of

ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of

accomplishing the same thing.


Agree, in new installs today they usually bring everything in
where the electrical panel is and ground everything there.
And that is the best way.

But Robert was telling the guy if he has a phone, CATV, etc
grounded to a water pipe that it's not code compliant. The
OP has an old house and if was done that way, then what he
has is still perfectly fine. There are millions of houses
out there with CATV, phone, etc grounded that way. There is
nothing in today's
code that says he has to change it, etc. Sending the OP
who doesn't have much in the way of electrical skills on
a wild goose chase based on incorrect info isn't productive.







And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable

or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water

pipe near where they enter the building. It's not

a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.



Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal

water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that

needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.



Not true. Check the NEC.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:05:07 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"philo " wrote in message

...

On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:



Trader's signature boatload of triple spaced quotes snipped and cleaned

up



If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but

not

touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply

lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and

the

furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no

longer

code).



Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?



He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be



Thanks, Philo, for pointing out what I actually said rather than what a very

angry Trader *claims* I said. This is precisely why it's mostly useless to

argue with him since he'll stuff words in your mouth and then berate you for

saying something you never said. sigh

Here for the record is what you said:

"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer
code). "

What exactly is the purpose of that process? He looks around,
he sees that the cable tv service has a ground wire that runs
over to a cold water pipe? What exactly is wrong with that?
It's perfectly normal to see that. It exists in millions of
houses. Yet, you're apparently suggesting that it has something
to do with his problem and that it's a code violation.

He sees a ground wire running from his "circuit box" over to
a cold water service pipe. What exactly is wrong with that?
Where does NEC say that is not allowed?
What does that or anything else you posted above have to
do with his problem?

His problems as others have stated a

A - Somehow at least part of his water system is getting
energized.

B - That part of the water system is not properly grounded.








It's too bad, too, because when he's not enslaved to his own anger, he's a

fairly astute diagnostician. That's the only reason I haven't yet plonked

him. He occasionally offers some valuable insights. If only he could learn

to control his anger . . .


If only you knew what you're talking about instead of sending
people off on wild goose chases.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo* wrote:
On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:

snip









If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not



touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply



lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the



furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer



code).







Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?











He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line



Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to
a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't
have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.

And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel
grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation.
Good grief.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:39:31 AM UTC-4, philo* wrote:
On 10/28/2013 09:05 AM, Robert Green wrote:





snip

He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS85K...ature=youtu.be



Thanks, Philo, for pointing out what I actually said rather than what a very

angry Trader *claims* I said. This is precisely why it's mostly useless to

argue with him since he'll stuff words in your mouth and then berate you for

saying something you never said. sigh



It's too bad, too, because when he's not enslaved to his own anger, he's a

fairly astute diagnostician. That's the only reason I haven't yet plonked

him. He occasionally offers some valuable insights. If only he could learn

to control his anger . . .







Yep, that's one problem with human nature and Usenet.



Two people who probably agree on something making a simple

mis-interpretation then going ballistic with anger.



It wasn't a misinterpretation of anything. And before
agreeing with Robert that a CATV, phone line, electrical panel,
with a ground connection to the water supply line is
something that is wrong, not code compliant, something
the OP should look for, suggesting any of that is the
cause of his shock, you might want to check your facts.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:36:40 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

Not very likely IMO. Just because his house has screwed up

wiring, doesn't mean the neighbor's house does.



Your opinion isn't worth very much where someone's life could be at risk.

It's worth a lot more than yours. I'm an EE for starters.




Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded?



Read carefully again, Trader. I know it's hard when you get angry and are

determined to turn things personal. I *never* said it wasn't code to have

those things grounded.

"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer
code). "

You did say that it's no longer code. He goes to his panel.
There is a ground wire running from it to his metal water service
pipe. What's wrong with that? You've left him with the impression
that something is wrong with it, that it's no longer code,
needs to be fixed, has something to do with his problem.

He finds his CATV and it's grounded to a cold water pipe.
You left him with the impression that something is wrong
with that too.




I said they are places to look for IMPROPER

grounding techniques.


Good grief. How would the OP know a proper grounding
technique from an improper one? There is nothing improper
about a CATV line being grounded to a cold water pipe
where it enters the building.



The electrician is likely going to want to know about

every place a wire is connected to a water pipe. Fred can assist by mapping

those out before he arrives. Very simple.



That's the only part that makes sense.




At least Philo knew I was specifically talking about ground wire connections

made to water pipes at random places in the house.

The circuit panel is a random place?



That's very clear to

anyone but a raging flamer like you. Is that still code in NJ? I doubt it.


They stopped approving such grounding methods *precisely* because of what's

happened in Fred's case. It's too easy for a repair using plastic plumbing

materials that then makes such clamp grounds located far from the circuit

panel ineffective.



You might want to check your facts on that one. In new
construction today they bring the phone, cable, etc
in at the same point as the electrical service. There they
use a common inter-system bonding point that ties it all
together with the building grounding system. However it's
required that CATV be grounded near where it enters the
building. And if the building doesn't have a modern, inter-system
grounding point, eg it's a 50 year old house, it's perfectly
code compliant to use a cold water pipe near where the cable
enters the buidling.

You have a cite that says otherwise, provide it.






In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?



"Good grief?" Have you morphed into Charly Brown from Peanuts? Will you

ever get your head on straight? It's code to have them grounded PROPERLY.

And it's not a code violation for the CATV, phone, etc to be
grounded to a cold water pipe in older construction.




Attaching grounding clamps to different pipes located around the house, as

may be the case here (we don't really know) is no longer code, AFAIK.

It's not done that way for new construction, but see above
regarding that it is permissible to use a cold water pipe on
older homes.




I love it when you let your anger take over, Trader. It's so *easy* to make

you look like an angry fool who has more interest in slamming someone you're

mad at rather than attempting to help the OP solve the problem. It's sad

because your diagnostic skills are usually quite good but they evaporate

like rain in Death Valley when you go on the warpath. Like now.



Try checking the NEC and then see who the fool is.




Ever wonder why the fence lady never came back? It might have had something

to do with your bellicose nature and your rather dumb advice to call the

cops or file a lawsuit. Just because someone temporarily piled up some dirt

on her lawn (charitable interpretation - it looked like bare dirt) trying to

improve the property. Jeez.



Oh my, I scared away the "fence lady". Good grief.





Remember that *you* turned this thread personal, Trader. I'm just finishing

what you insisted on starting.


Try reading the NEC and then get back to us.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:00:11 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 08:17 AM, wrote:

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 5:22:03 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 10/27/2013 02:47 PM, Fred wrote:



"Robert Green" wrote in message



...



"Doug Miller" wrote in message



...



"Fred" wrote in :







How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my



bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's a



good



enough zap to make you jump.







You have at least two problems: a fault in your electrical system



somewhere is energizing that



pipe, and the pipe itself is not properly grounded.







Get a qualified electrician out to look at this ASAP: this could be



fatal.







It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a static



electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on the former



because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard to energize them



to



the point of getting a shock unless you're touching something that's an



even



better ground. If walking on a carpet has given your body a static



electric



charge then it could be easily dumped to ground when you touch a faucet



or



some other metal part of the plumbing.







Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a zap



or



is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do you have



plastic



water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the time or just when the



humidity is very low? Do you have an electric water heater or gas unit?







--



Bobby G.







No carpet in basement. There's a constant tingling, and the pipes are



copper. This happens all the time, in fact, I just got shocked off the



kitchen faucet, which is a first! The water heater is gas. The problem



appears to be getting worse.











If you're getting "buzzed" you need to be very careful around your



piping and get it checked out ASAP. You've got at least two problems,



one, the water piping system is (surprisingly) not properly grounded,



two, it's getting AC voltage applied to it from somewhere. If it were



properly grounded, the breaker would have tripped for the voltage source.





The breaker would only trip if:



A - It's a GFCI breaker

or

B - The fault current flowing exceeded the breaker rating.





True, but if the piping were grounded then B) would be true, *except* in

the instance where it is a neutral wire in an appliance that is

connected to the water piping system not a hot, in which case unplugging

the appliance would "fix" the problem (and it'd be easy to guess which

appliance it is, as the issue would only show up when the appliance was

being used.)


You're making the big assumption that a hot that is somehow
connecting to the piping system is in fact a dead short. That
would trip a regular breaker by exceeding the current. But
more typical is that it's not a dead short from a hot, but
some partial short, ie some leakage current getting onto it.
If it was a direct connection from hot the OP would likely be
on his ass or dead.

On 10/28/2013 12:05 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:16:23 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 09:50 AM, wrote:

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:

On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:



snip



















If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not







touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply







lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the







furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer







code).















Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer



code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are



supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,



what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for



anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose



this serious problem?























He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line





And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be

grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code

requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the

house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.



Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service

could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it

functionally can work that way, but it is not code compliant to rely on

the water service for the ground.

It's not code compliant for the water service pipe to be the
*only* grounding electrode, but it is code compliant for the
water service pipe to be used as one of the grounding electrodes.




However, you are still required to

*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's

metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that

identical connection is very different.



No it's not, because per code the water pipe may serve as
a grounding electrode. It's not just a bonding issue.



A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the

electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network

of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary

means of grounding.



I don't believe NEC distinguishes and calls any one method
the primary ground. And there are other and better methods
of grounding in new constructions, Ufer being an example.
They do require that a water pipe can't be the only grounding
electrode.





The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel,

although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and

that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of

ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of

accomplishing the same thing.


Agree, in new installs today they usually bring everything in
where the electrical panel is and ground everything there.
And that is the best way.

But Robert was telling the guy if he has a phone, CATV, etc
grounded to a water pipe that it's not code compliant. The
OP has an old house and if was done that way, then what he
has is still perfectly fine. There are millions of houses
out there with CATV, phone, etc grounded that way. There is
nothing in today's
code that says he has to change it, etc. Sending the OP
who doesn't have much in the way of electrical skills on
a wild goose chase based on incorrect info isn't productive.







And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable

or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water

pipe near where they enter the building. It's not

a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.



Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal

water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that

needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.



Not true. Check the NEC.

*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it
must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must*
provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case
for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where
the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping
where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that
was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been
code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.

http://www.prospex.us/DOCS/ELECTRICA...NDING%20 .pdf

(page 8)

At one time most jurisdictional building authorities permitted and encouraged the use of metal potable
water supply piping as the grounding electrode because it was embedded in the earth outside of the
building. In fact, prior to 1978
, the National Electrical Code (NEC) specified the metal potable water
supply pipe as the first choice
for use as a grounding electrode and “
other electrodes
” and “
made
electrodes
” were acceptable only
“
where a water system (electrode)...is not available
.” If a minimum of
ten (10) feet of a metal potable water pipe to a building were buried in the ground, then that water pipe
had
to be used as the grounding electrode and no other electrical system electrode was required.
However, with the growing use of non-conductive components in such piping systems, their ability to
provide an electrically continuous and reliable elec
trical system ground came into question. Today,
buried metal potable water supply piping is considered by the NEC to be the least acceptable
grounding electrode and is the only grounding electrode that may never be used as the sole grounding
electrode
. It must be supplemented by at least one additional approved grounding electrode. While
metal fuel gas piping is to be bonded to the electrical system, it is
NEVER
to be used as a grounding
electrode
The connection of a conductor from any of the following is to be accomplished by use of exothermic
welding, a listed pressure connector, or other lis
ted means (“listed” means tested and approved for the
specific use by a qualified and recognized standards and testing agency such as Underwrites
Laboratories or the Canadian Standards Association):
1. The piping system to the service equipment enclosure
2. The ground
ed
/neutral conductor at the service
3. The grounding electrode conductor where such grounding electrode conductor is of
sufficient size (the grounding electrode conductor is the wire which connects the grounding
bus in the main panel (SES)
4. A Ufer, to the grounding rod, to any other approved grounding electrode
5. One or more grounding electrodes used for the service



--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:49:20 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:


*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it

must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must*

provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case

for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where

the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping

where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that

was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been

code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.



I agree. And I'm sure you agree that "not code compliant today"
doesn't mean that those older systems are now unsafe, have to
be upgraded, etc. As long as you're not replacing them, etc,
they can stay that way.

My main point was that Robert suggested that the
OP go look for anything like a CATV, Phone, electric panel, etc that
has a ground wire attached to the water service and that
it's no longer code. I believe we agree that to
have the panel grounded to the water service is part of
the current code, so that part of what was posted is 100% wrong.

And it's not unusual to find CATV, phone etc grounded to
a cold water pipe at various points where they come in to
an older house. That's how it was done in years gone by.
Even today you can do it as long as it's within 5 ft
of where the water service enters the house.

I had visions of the OP finding his CATV grounded to
a cold water pipe, or the panel connected to the incoming
water service and saying "Oh, there's the source of
my shocks or there's something that's wrong that needs
to be fixed because it's not code, etc".

Robert has since stated that he meant that the OP should
go find those ground points so that he can tell the electrician
where they are. Had he said that to begin with, I would not have
disagreed.

An even more direct idea would be to map out the portion of the
water system that is energized, follow it as much as
possible, see if anything is connected to THAT portion.
And see if that portion is seperated by some plastic
piping etc from the rest of the water system. If he finds
it has a PVC section separating it from the rest of the
metal piping, then the search can proceed for what's
energizing that section.