On 10/28/2013 02:19 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:49:20 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:


*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it

must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must*

provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case

for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where

the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping

where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that

was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been

code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.



I agree. And I'm sure you agree that "not code compliant today"
doesn't mean that those older systems are now unsafe, have to
be upgraded, etc. As long as you're not replacing them, etc,
they can stay that way.

Agreed. I would, however, were it my house, consider adding some
supplemental ground rods if it was convenient to do so, just for peace
of mind. I probably wouldn't bother to rework any grounds to water pipe
however unless I had a good reason to do so. Also, would consider
adding GFCI receps definitely in the bathrooms if the house is old
enough to have dodged that requirement, additionally for clothes washer
etc. just for extra safety.


My main point was that Robert suggested that the
OP go look for anything like a CATV, Phone, electric panel, etc that
has a ground wire attached to the water service and that
it's no longer code. I believe we agree that to
have the panel grounded to the water service is part of
the current code, so that part of what was posted is 100% wrong.

And it's not unusual to find CATV, phone etc grounded to
a cold water pipe at various points where they come in to
an older house. That's how it was done in years gone by.
Even today you can do it as long as it's within 5 ft
of where the water service enters the house.

I had visions of the OP finding his CATV grounded to
a cold water pipe, or the panel connected to the incoming
water service and saying "Oh, there's the source of
my shocks or there's something that's wrong that needs
to be fixed because it's not code, etc".

Robert has since stated that he meant that the OP should
go find those ground points so that he can tell the electrician
where they are. Had he said that to begin with, I would not have
disagreed.

An even more direct idea would be to map out the portion of the
water system that is energized, follow it as much as
possible, see if anything is connected to THAT portion.
And see if that portion is seperated by some plastic
piping etc from the rest of the water system. If he finds
it has a PVC section separating it from the rest of the
metal piping, then the search can proceed for what's
energizing that section.

I'd say priority one is figuring out *what* is energizing the pipe; can
be done by unplugging equipment and/or turning off breakers. And the
most important point, if turning off the main breaker does not make the
issue go away, call in the pros and the power company TDS.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 04:08:32 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
stuff snipped

If you have a voltmeter or test light, measure voltage from a copper
pipe to a good ground (usually the copper pipe *would* be a good ground,
but in this case it is apparently not! Try a grounded receptacle.)

Not sure if that's going to work if the ground is energized. There's also
the problem of phantom voltage readings if he's using a digital meter that
might make the readings meaningless. I've been researching this problem on
the net out of curiousity and there are lots and lots of potential causes.
So many that it's a problem best left to a licensed professional.

The copper supply piping may have once been connected to a ground but a
repair with a plastic union of some sort has isolated a section of the pipe
which is touching something electrical and is now energized. Since there
are so many possibilities, it's time for Fred, the OP, to call in the
cavalry now that we know it's not a simple static shock.

I'm
guessing you'll find there is some. Unplug any appliance that connects
to water line one at a time (clothes washer, refrigerator with ice maker
are the two obvious ones; water softener if you have it, etc.) until you
find the faulty one. Leave that one unplugged until it's fixed.

If you've unplugged everything and you still have voltage on the pipes,
start turning off breakers one by one until it goes away. Then
depending on your skill level you can find the issue or give a pro a
good place to start troubleshooting (and be safe in the meantime.)

I agree that the OP should be tracing the pipes *visually* to locate
possible contact points, clamps with wires leading from them and places
where there might be a plastic union, but it's a serious enough problem to
defer to an electrician that has experience with such issues.

Consider driving some ground rods, and bonding your panel and plumbing
system so this doesn't happen again!

I suspect that's going to be part of the solution a qualified sparky will
recommend. Something's rotten in Denmark, and it could be more than one
problem which makes it really hard for a homeowner to isolate and fix. I
say Fred's exceptionally lucky he detected this problem before he stepped
into what might have been his last shower on Earth. (-:

When I installed my new water softener I had to connect a bonding wire
between the inlet and outlet of the softener too - it was in the
instructions - because the softener meter-head is composite instead of
brass.

The water heater has anti-dialectric bushings too - so a jumper across
the water heater maintains ground continuity there as well.

Fred wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"TomR" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"Fred" wrote in
:

How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in
my bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time,
but it's a good enough zap to make you jump.

It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a
static electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on
the former because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard
to energize them to the point of getting a shock unless you're
touching something that's an even better ground. If walking on a
carpet has given your body a static electric charge then it could
be easily dumped to ground when you touch a faucet or some other
metal part of the plumbing.

Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark
and a zap or is there a constant tingling when you touch the
faucet? Do you have plastic water pipes or copper? Does this
happen all the time or just when the humidity is very low? Do you
have an electric water heater or gas unit?

All good questions. Hopefully, the OP (Fred) will reply back.

Thanks. I thought it was a bit premature to call in the cavalry
because the
word "zap" in the original post made me think "static shock" and not
110VAC.
But it always pays to be careful and I think with the right questions
(and
perhaps some testing) we can help the OP determine what's going on.

--
Bobby G.

Ok, this is way weird. I just was going to replace a toilet flapper.
I went to turn the shut off valve, and got zapped, big time!

But, you didn't answer any of the questions. You are not just messing with
us, are you?

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/27/2013 9:09 PM, gregz wrote:

although a water line might be getting in contact with a power line.

in any case if in doubt get a electrician there ASAP which isnt wednesday.
THIS CAN KILL YOU

Feel the shock ? !!!

Greg


After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.

TomR wrote:
Fred wrote:

Ok, this is way weird. I just was going to replace a toilet flapper.
I went to turn the shut off valve, and got zapped, big time!

But, you didn't answer any of the questions. You are not just
messing with us, are you?

Okay, I see that you did answer the questions better elsewhere -- you get a
constant buzz feeling when touching the fixture/valve/etc., and there is no
carpeting etc.

So, I guess you are not "just messing with us".

I assume that the electrician will look for grounding issues to make sure
all of the plumbing is grounded -- jumpers across the hot water heater,
across the water meter, no loose clamps where a grounding wire is connected
to any plumbing, maybe the presence of PVC or PEX plumbing that may be
interrupting the plumbing fixtures from being grounded.

And, after that, trying to find where the source of current is coming from
that is apparently leaking to the valves etc. that are causing you to feel a
current/shock when you touch it.

Let us know what you find out.

" writes:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo=A0 wrote:

=20
He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line
=20


Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to
a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't
have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.

And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel
grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation.
Good grief.

Section 250.104 of the NEC requires that metal water piping systems
be bonded to one of the following:

* Service Equipment enclosure (at service entrance)
* Grounded neutral service conductor (at service entrance)
* Grounding electrode conductor when sized per table 250.66
* One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system.

The grounding conductor must be sized appropriately with respect
to the largest ungrounded service conductor (e.g. AWG2 for 4/0 service entrance).

This is for safety purposes, not to provide a grounding conductor for the
premises.

This _DOES NOT IMPLY THAT SUCH A BONDING CONDUCTOR MAY REPLACE A CODE COMPLIANT
GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM_.

In other words, the water pipe is bonded _to_ the real grounding means. The water pipe
may not _be_ the premises grounding means (as of the 1999 code, or possibly earlier).

I suspect this is the root of your disagreement.

FWIW, bonding CATV to a cold water line isn't done by most cable systems anymore,
as they have no assurance that the cold water line is actually bonded to the
premises grounding electrodes, particularly in regions of the country where
the water service lines were non-metallic or have been replaced by non-metallic
piping (per the local Comcast tech staff).

scott

On 10/28/2013 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:06:05 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
" writes:

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo=A0 wrote:



=20

He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line

=20





Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to

a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't

have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.



And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel

grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation.

Good grief.



Section 250.104 of the NEC requires that metal water piping systems

be bonded to one of the following:



* Service Equipment enclosure (at service entrance)

* Grounded neutral service conductor (at service entrance)

* Grounding electrode conductor when sized per table 250.66

* One of the electrodes of the grounding electrode system.



The grounding conductor must be sized appropriately with respect

to the largest ungrounded service conductor (e.g. AWG2 for 4/0 service entrance).



This is for safety purposes, not to provide a grounding conductor for the

premises.



This _DOES NOT IMPLY THAT SUCH A BONDING CONDUCTOR MAY REPLACE A CODE COMPLIANT

GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM_.



In other words, the water pipe is bonded _to_ the real grounding means. The water pipe

may not _be_ the premises grounding means (as of the 1999 code, or possibly earlier).


It may not be the *only* grounding electrode. The water service
pipe entering the house is however one of a number of permissible
grounding electrodes that can be part of the grounding system.







I suspect this is the root of your disagreement.



FWIW, bonding CATV to a cold water line isn't done by most cable systems anymore,

as they have no assurance that the cold water line is actually bonded to the

premises grounding electrodes, particularly in regions of the country where

the water service lines were non-metallic or have been replaced by non-metallic

piping (per the local Comcast tech staff).



scott

I agree, for new, recent contruction. But what was proposed was
to send the OP off on a search for things like CATV, phone,
and even the electric panel that are
connected to a water pipe and that such a connection is "no
longer code". That to me at least, implies that it's something
that is wrong and possibly the source of his shock problem.
In fact, there are millions of older homes where the cable
TV is bonded to a cold water pipe. Nothing wrong,
inherently unsafe, or that needs to be fixed. In fact, it's
still code compliant to ground a CATV cable to a water pipe,
under certain circumstances.

On 10/28/2013 12:13 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:36:40 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

Not very likely IMO. Just because his house has screwed up

wiring, doesn't mean the neighbor's house does.



Your opinion isn't worth very much where someone's life could be at risk.

It's worth a lot more than yours. I'm an EE for starters.


snip


So am I and /neither/ of us are licensed electricians.

That's why I told the OP to bring one in ASAP and not fool with it.

On 10-28-2013, 12:17, wrote:
Here for the record is what you said:

"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might*look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer
code). "

You looked at "no longer code" and saw "wrong"

Not obvious what he meant, but he didn't _say_ "wrong"

--
Wes Groleau

€œA miracle is a violation of the laws of nature, and as a
firm and unalterable experience has established these laws,
the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact,
is as entire as could possibly be imagined.€�
€” David Hume, age 37
€œThere's no such thing of that, 'cause I never heard of it.€�
€” Becky Groleau, age 4

On 10-28-2013, 15:34, wrote:
inherently unsafe, or that needs to be fixed. In fact, it's
still code compliant to ground a CATV cable to a water pipe,
under certain circumstances.

But it is also possible, if another ground is missing or inadequate, for
that pipe to be energized by a flaw in the device to be grounded.

I once worked on a TV for a while wondering why my butt was so itchy.
Finally realized some idiot had wired the power cord in backward.
The chassis was hot, and the insulation between me and the floor
was not quite adequate.

--
Wes Groleau

€œIt is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it
goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the
world.€�
€” Thomas Jefferson

On 10-28-2013, 08:45, Nate Nagel wrote:
I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the
problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for
voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify
that issue has gone away. Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,

That's not quite good enough. Depends on HOW you check it. If you
check from right behind shower head to what you think ground and isn't,
then there might still be potential between sower and drain.

But you could detect no potential between shower and drain because drain
pipes are likely partly plastic. Yet if enough non-distilled water is
flowing, that can make the metal part at the end become a ground.

Second best way to check for something hot if you're not sure of the
return path is one of those things that work by proximity.
Unfortunately, many of those are tricky to adjust and can give false Hot
or false Not judgments if you don't know how to work them.

Best is to follow the advice already posted often: Call a pro.

--
Wes Groleau

Nutrition for Blokes: Re-engineering your diet for life
http://www.phlaunt.com/quentin

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:08:46 -0400, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 10-28-2013, 08:45, Nate Nagel wrote:
I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the
problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for
voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify
that issue has gone away. Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,

That's not quite good enough. Depends on HOW you check it. If you
check from right behind shower head to what you think ground and isn't,
then there might still be potential between sower and drain.

But you could detect no potential between shower and drain because drain
pipes are likely partly plastic. Yet if enough non-distilled water is
flowing, that can make the metal part at the end become a ground.

Second best way to check for something hot if you're not sure of the
return path is one of those things that work by proximity.
Unfortunately, many of those are tricky to adjust and can give false Hot
or false Not judgments if you don't know how to work them.

Best is to follow the advice already posted often: Call a pro.
The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon
tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so
little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:10:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/28/2013 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.
Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground
float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying
it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open
neutral between the panel and the street??

On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:19:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:08:46 -0400, Wes Groleau

wrote:



On 10-28-2013, 08:45, Nate Nagel wrote:

I second the recommendation to just not touch the piping until the

problem is isolated. If OP has to take a shower I would check for

voltage on pipe with voltmeter and then turn off main breaker and verify

that issue has gone away. Yeah, you'll be taking a shower in the dark,



That's not quite good enough. Depends on HOW you check it. If you

check from right behind shower head to what you think ground and isn't,

then there might still be potential between sower and drain.



But you could detect no potential between shower and drain because drain

pipes are likely partly plastic. Yet if enough non-distilled water is

flowing, that can make the metal part at the end become a ground.



Second best way to check for something hot if you're not sure of the

return path is one of those things that work by proximity.

Unfortunately, many of those are tricky to adjust and can give false Hot

or false Not judgments if you don't know how to work them.



Best is to follow the advice already posted often: Call a pro.

The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon

tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so

little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

I wouldn't recommend any of those procedures for the OP
and his problem. For one thing,
who knows if this is a stable condition, ie that the voltage is
always present, always the same, etc. If he has a faulty
piece of equipment, a partial short, etc, it could be energized
sometimes and not at others. It could show no voltage when tested
and then 120V could be there when he takes his shower.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 6:49:37 PM UTC-4, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 10-28-2013, 12:17, wrote:

Here for the record is what you said:



"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might*look* (but not

touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply

lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the

furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer

code). "



You looked at "no longer code" and saw "wrong"



Not obvious what he meant, but he didn't _say_ "wrong"



I agree it's not obvious what he meant. But when you tell
s novice who is having a problem to go look for something
and if you find it, it's
"no longer code", what do you think they might infer?
Seems reasonable to me that they would infer that it needs
to be corrected and that it has something to do with his
shock problem.

And then the statement itself that it's no longer code
is wrong, unless you think a wire going from the panel
to a metal cold water pipe
is a code violation. A metal water service line can
serve as one of the grounding electrodes and the metal
water system of the house has to be bonded to the panel.
So, seeing a wire connection from the panel to a water
pipe is permissible under current code.

It is also currently code compliant to ground an incoming CATV,
phone wire, etc to a water pipe provided it's within 5 ft
of where it enters the building.

On 10/28/2013 07:22 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:10:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/28/2013 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.
Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground
float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying
it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open
neutral between the panel and the street??


That would explain it, but one would expect other problems as well were
that the case.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

" wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:

snip









If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not



touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply



lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the



furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer



code).







Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer

code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are

supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,

what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for

anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose

this serious problem?











He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line


And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be
grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code
requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the
house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.

And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable
or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water
pipe near where they enter the building. It's not
a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.

And it's all pointless anyway, because the OP
clearly doesn't have the skills to figure out what
is or isn't the problem anyway.

In my old house, the box was near a water pipe. That's were ground was
attached. New box had ground wire going all the way to the water inlet
before meter. The water pipe might have provided a better ground, but
that's not code. Extra ground rods were also installed.

Greg

wrote in message ...

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:10:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/28/2013 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.
Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground
float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying
it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open
neutral between the panel and the street??



My son had an open neutral from the overhead power line. I was helping him
do some remodeling and happened to get a shock from the incoming water line.
This is a very old house. In this case running a drill or saw would cause in
lights to brighten or dim when on opposite phase. This is a 3 wire from
transformer. Power company found a burnt up neutral connection at the meter.
They repaired that and problem solved. WW

On 10/28/2013 8:16 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 09:50 AM, wrote:

And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be
grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code
requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the
house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.

Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service
could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it
functionally can work that way,

"Can"?
If there is a metal water service pipe (10 ft...) it is *required* to be
used as an earthing electrode.

but it is not code compliant to rely on
the water service for the ground.

For over 50 years you needed a "supplemental" electrode if the water
service pipe might be replaced with plastic. More recently you need a
"supplemental" electrode in any case.


However, you are still required to
*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's
metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that
identical connection is very different.

Nonsense.
If you have a plastic water service, interior metal water piping must be
"bonded" to the electrical ground.

If there is a metal water service (10ft...) it is *required* to be
connected as an earthing electrode.


A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the
electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network
of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary
means of grounding.

Wrong again.
Earthing electrodes form a system.
A metal municipal water system will have a lower resistance to earth
than any other electrode available at a house.
Ground rods are close to a joke.
In new construction with a concrete footing or foundation a "concrete
encased electrode" must be created. It is a good electrode (and ground
rods are not required).


The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel,
although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and
that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of
ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of
accomplishing the same thing.

For quite a while entry protectors, if they are connected to the water
pipe (metal water service) must be connected within 5 ft of the entry to
the house. The earthing electrode connection must be connected in the
same 5 feet. (and of course, bonded water meter.)




And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable
or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water
pipe near where they enter the building. It's not
a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.

Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal
water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that
needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.

Wrong still, twice.


It would appear from the OP's message that his house is one of those
special cases that illustrates just *why* this change in code was made;
clearly he does not have a modern code compliant grounding network
and/or the water pipes inside the house are not bonded to same, and the
water service is not providing a good ground either because a jumper
over an insulating element like a meter is missing/corroded or a metal
service has been replaced by ABS or some nonconductive material.

I don't have a clue what the OP has.

And it's all pointless anyway, because the OP
clearly doesn't have the skills to figure out what
is or isn't the problem anyway.

We can always learn. But this is one of those things that needs to be
approached with caution...

nate

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:14:55 -0600, "WW"
wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:10:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/28/2013 2:49 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:53:23 -0400, Stormin Mormon
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where (maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the white
wire.
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.
Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground
float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying
it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open
neutral between the panel and the street??



My son had an open neutral from the overhead power line. I was helping him
do some remodeling and happened to get a shock from the incoming water line.
This is a very old house. In this case running a drill or saw would cause in
lights to brighten or dim when on opposite phase. This is a 3 wire from
transformer. Power company found a burnt up neutral connection at the meter.
They repaired that and problem solved. WW


And the OP didn't experience (or report) any other issues.Which is why
I asked Stormy to explain

On 10/28/2013 11:49 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:05 PM, wrote:

Not true. Check the NEC.

*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it
must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must*
provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case
for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where
the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping
where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that
was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been
code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.

My house has only a metal water service pipe as an earthing electrode.
It was code when installed. As far as the NEC is concerned it is
compliant today. If I replace the service it won't be compliant.

On 10/28/2013 4:49 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 10-28-2013, 12:17, wrote:
Here for the record is what you said:

"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might*look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no
longer
code). "

You looked at "no longer code" and saw "wrong"

Not obvious what he meant, but he didn't _say_ "wrong"


"No longer code" is "wrong".

On 10/28/2013 1:06 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo=A0 wrote:

=20
He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line
=20


Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to
a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't
have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.

And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel
grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation.
Good grief.

Section 250.104 of the NEC requires that metal water piping systems
be bonded to one of the following:

If there is not a metal water service (10 ft...) the water pipe must be
bonded using 250.104.

If there is a metal water service (10ft...) the water pipe must be
connected as an earthing electrode, not the same as bonding. 250.50 and
following


This is for safety purposes, not to provide a grounding conductor for the
premises.

This _DOES NOT IMPLY THAT SUCH A BONDING CONDUCTOR MAY REPLACE A CODE COMPLIANT
GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM_.

In other words, the water pipe is bonded _to_ the real grounding means. The water pipe
may not _be_ the premises grounding means (as of the 1999 code, or possibly earlier).

If there is a metal water service pipe (10ft...) that is all wrong.

On 10/28/2013 1:34 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:06:05 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:

It may not be the *only* grounding electrode. The water service
pipe entering the house is however one of a number of permissible
grounding electrodes that can be part of the grounding system.

A quibble - a metal water service pipe (10ft...) is not a "permissible"
electrode. It is a *required* electrode.

I know this is merely temporary insanity and you know better.


I suspect this is the root of your disagreement.

FWIW, bonding CATV to a cold water line isn't done by most cable systems anymore,
as they have no assurance that the cold water line is actually bonded to the
premises grounding electrodes, particularly in regions of the country where
the water service lines were non-metallic or have been replaced by non-metallic
piping (per the local Comcast tech staff).

scott

I agree, for new, recent contruction. But what was proposed was
to send the OP off on a search for things like CATV, phone,
and even the electric panel that are
connected to a water pipe and that such a connection is "no
longer code". That to me at least, implies that it's something
that is wrong and possibly the source of his shock problem.
In fact, there are millions of older homes where the cable
TV is bonded to a cold water pipe. Nothing wrong,
inherently unsafe, or that needs to be fixed. In fact, it's
still code compliant to ground a CATV cable to a water pipe,
under certain circumstances.

When there is a metal water service pipe (10ft...) it is always code
compliant to connect the entry protectors to the pipe, but now only
within 5 ft of entry to the house.

I am too lazy to look up rules for if the pipe is "bonded" (plastic
service pipe).

You are easily the "most right". I don''t understand why this is as
difficult as it seems to be.

On 10-28-2013, 19:54, wrote:
And then the statement itself that it's no longer code
is wrong, unless you think a wire going from the panel
to a metal cold water pipe
is a code violation.

He didn't say 'violation' either. Said the ambiguous "not code" and
other comments made it clear he doesn't think it's a violation.


--
Wes Groleau

There are some ideas so wrong that only a
very intelligent person could believe in them.
€” George Orwell

On 10-28-2013, 23:01, bud-- wrote:

"No longer code" is "wrong".

Other posts made it clear he meant not required by code.
Don't crucify him for failure to edit extensively.
That would violate Usenet tradition.


--
Wes Groleau

There are some ideas so wrong that only a
very intelligent person could believe in them.
€” George Orwell

On 10-28-2013, 19:19, wrote:
The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon
tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so
little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

That's easier if you know what you are doing. It requires contact with
the point being tested AND with a ground of some sort. Not everything
that is metal or looks like it is even a capacitive ground.

And, unless you understand how the light works, you don't know which
side is hot.


--
Wes Groleau

There are some ideas so wrong that only a
very intelligent person could believe in them.
€” George Orwell

On 10-28-2013, 19:26, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:19:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:08:46 -0400, Wes Groleau
Second best way to check for something hot if you're not sure of the
return path is one of those things that work by proximity.
Unfortunately, many of those are tricky to adjust and can give false Hot
or false Not judgments if you don't know how to work them.

Best is to follow the advice already posted often: Call a pro.

The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon
tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so
little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

I wouldn't recommend any of those procedures for the OP
and his problem. For one thing,

I would--the one that's marked and recommended already by several others

who knows if this is a stable condition, ie that the voltage is
always present, always the same, etc. If he has a faulty
piece of equipment, a partial short, etc, it could be energized
sometimes and not at others. It could show no voltage when tested
and then 120V could be there when he takes his shower.

Which is what I said in the part snipped.


--
Wes Groleau

There are some ideas so wrong that only a
very intelligent person could believe in them.
€” George Orwell

Fred do not call any local electrician they will not know anything no
disrespect to them Call you electrical supply company that could be
problem with transformer outside I run in similar problem few years back
where electrical company screwed up left transformer ground floating
I would be very careful.


"Fred" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"TomR" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"Fred" wrote in
:

How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my
bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's
a good enough zap to make you jump.

It's probably a good idea to first determine whether this is a static
electricity shock or an actual 110VAC buzz. I'm betting on the former
because water pipes are *usually* grounded so it's hard to energize
them to the point of getting a shock unless you're touching something
that's an even better ground. If walking on a carpet has given your
body a static electric charge then it could be easily dumped to
ground when you touch a faucet or some other metal part of the
plumbing.

Fred, is your basement carpeted? Are we talking a sudden spark and a
zap or is there a constant tingling when you touch the faucet? Do
you have plastic water pipes or copper? Does this happen all the
time or just when the humidity is very low? Do you have an electric
water heater or gas unit?

All good questions. Hopefully, the OP (Fred) will reply back.

Thanks. I thought it was a bit premature to call in the cavalry because
the
word "zap" in the original post made me think "static shock" and not
110VAC.
But it always pays to be careful and I think with the right questions
(and
perhaps some testing) we can help the OP determine what's going on.

--
Bobby G.



Ok, this is way weird. I just was going to replace a toilet flapper. I
went to turn the shut off valve, and got zapped, big time!

On Monday, October 28, 2013 11:22:23 PM UTC-4, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 10-28-2013, 19:54, wrote:

And then the statement itself that it's no longer code

is wrong, unless you think a wire going from the panel

to a metal cold water pipe

is a code violation.



He didn't say 'violation' either. Said the ambiguous "not code" and

other comments made it clear he doesn't think it's a violation.



And once again, as I've pointed out about 6 times now, it's not
true that it's "not code" today to have a wire running from the
panel to a water pipe. It's not true that it's "not code" today
to under certain circumstances to have the CATV, phone grounded
to a water pipe. Not code means that you couldn't do that today,
when in fact code says you can. Good grief.

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:15:52 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 10/28/2013 1:34 PM, wrote:

On Monday, October 28, 2013 3:06:05 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

writes:



It may not be the *only* grounding electrode. The water service

pipe entering the house is however one of a number of permissible

grounding electrodes that can be part of the grounding system.



A quibble - a metal water service pipe (10ft...) is not a "permissible"

electrode. It is a *required* electrode.



I know this is merely temporary insanity and you know better.





I suspect this is the root of your disagreement.



FWIW, bonding CATV to a cold water line isn't done by most cable systems anymore,

as they have no assurance that the cold water line is actually bonded to the

premises grounding electrodes, particularly in regions of the country where

the water service lines were non-metallic or have been replaced by non-metallic

piping (per the local Comcast tech staff).



scott



I agree, for new, recent contruction. But what was proposed was

to send the OP off on a search for things like CATV, phone,

and even the electric panel that are

connected to a water pipe and that such a connection is "no

longer code". That to me at least, implies that it's something

that is wrong and possibly the source of his shock problem.

In fact, there are millions of older homes where the cable

TV is bonded to a cold water pipe. Nothing wrong,

inherently unsafe, or that needs to be fixed. In fact, it's

still code compliant to ground a CATV cable to a water pipe,

under certain circumstances.



When there is a metal water service pipe (10ft...) it is always code

compliant to connect the entry protectors to the pipe, but now only

within 5 ft of entry to the house.



I am too lazy to look up rules for if the pipe is "bonded" (plastic

service pipe).



You are easily the "most right". I don''t understand why this is as

difficult as it seems to be.


Thanks Bud. Good to see we're back to agreeing on things again
The irony here of course is that most of the folks here don't
seem to understand what's code, proper, etc, yet someone suggested
the OP who is obviously a novice start looking at the ground wires
attached to his water pipes. The worst part was that suggesting that
it's "no longer code" to see a ground wire from the panel, CATV, phone,
etc going to a water pipe is wrong. To me, a novice would likely
infer from that if he finds such a thing, it needs to be corrected,
could be the cause of his shock problem, etc.

Robert later said that he meant the OP should go find those so
that he can point them out to the electrician. I don't have a
problem with that. But the "not code today" part as we agree is
wrong. Not just for older systems, either, but for code in new
work.

As I said before, another thing the OP could do is trace out the
plumbing system to identify how the energized section is connected
back to the rest of it, eg if there is a plastic section in between
it and the rest of the plumbing, etc. He should of course do that
without touching the metal portion. But most important is to get
an electrician in there. That of course assuming this was a real post
and not a joke to get us all going.

On 10/28/2013 7:22 PM, wrote:
Stop and think about it Stormy - even if that WERE the case, the
water system is SUPPOSED to be grounded - and if it is properly
rounded there is no potential difference between the water system and
ground - and therefore no tingle or shock.


Stop and think about it, Clare. If the OP wishes not to be
shocked, s/he ought to FIND the problem. As such, looking for
PROBLEMS like a bad NEUTRAL would help FIND and SOLVE the
problem. Improving the ground will NOT do much about the
SOURCE of the electricity.
Please explain how a bad neutral is going to make the ground
float. I'm real curious how you are going to explain that. Not saying
it's impossible - but please enlighten us. Or are you saying an open
neutral between the panel and the street??

Goal post move, noted. Is that the best you can do?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/28/2013 8:16 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
After some thought, I suspect the OP has a bad neutral some where
(maybe
in the panel box where it's easier to find). An appliance some
where in
the house is neutral through the water line instead of through the
white
wire.

That would explain it, but one would expect other problems as well were
that the case.

nate


And the next question. What to do about a bad neutral?
I remember a house, a friend asked me about a power
socket that wasn't working. They were trying to use
window AC. Read just fine on my three bulb tester. The
problem turned out to be that the neutral in the panel
box wasn't tightly screwed into the bar. So, I snugged
all the neutral and ground screws at the bus bars.
That took care of the problem, and found several loose
connectors. Working inside panel box is very risky,
there is a LOT of potential ways to get zapped. The OP
should have that done by electrician.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 10/28/2013 10:14 PM, WW wrote:

My son had an open neutral from the overhead power line. I was helping
him do some remodeling and happened to get a shock from the incoming
water line. This is a very old house. In this case running a drill or
saw would cause in lights to brighten or dim when on opposite phase.
This is a 3 wire from transformer. Power company found a burnt up
neutral connection at the meter. They repaired that and problem solved. WW

That's a very real possiblity, for the OP of
this thread.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, October 28, 2013 11:24:09 PM UTC-4, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 10-28-2013, 23:01, bud-- wrote:



"No longer code" is "wrong".



Other posts made it clear he meant not required by code.

Don't crucify him for failure to edit extensively.

That would violate Usenet tradition.


..

Let's review this one more time:

"If you want to do something before help arrives, I might*look* (but not
touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply
lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the
furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer code)."

Let's just look at one simple, easy piece of that.
The OP goes looking at his circuit box area and finds
a wire running from the panel to his cold water pipe,
either the incoming water service or the metal water pipes
of the house if the water service is plastic.
That is not only allowed in current code, it's *required*
in current code. And it's also perfectly
normal in older homes. It's just flat out wrong to say
it's "no longer code".

On 10/28/2013 9:24 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
On 10-28-2013, 23:01, bud-- wrote:

"No longer code" is "wrong".

Other posts made it clear he meant not required by code.
Don't crucify him for failure to edit extensively.
That would violate Usenet tradition.


"Not required by code" is "wrong".

"Wes Groleau" wrote in message
...
On 10-28-2013, 19:19, wrote:
The EASIEST way to test for a live chassis, or a live wire, is a neon
tester. It will light with only a "capacitive ground" and draws so
little current it is impossible to get a shock from.

That's easier if you know what you are doing. It requires contact with
the point being tested AND with a ground of some sort. Not everything
that is metal or looks like it is even a capacitive ground.

And, unless you understand how the light works, you don't know which side
is hot.


Often the simple neon bulb testers do not need a ground to tell which side
is the hot one. Just hold one of the leads in your hand and put the other
one to the circuit. Most often it will light up evenif you are not
grounded. The digital volt meters (VOM) will show a good bit of voltage
when the same test is ran.

You can also get the voltage test sticks that are battery powered and they
will light up /sound off on a hot wire.
They do not require any ground or even a direct contact with the circuit as
they are fully insulated.

On 10/26/2013 6:20 PM, Fred wrote:
How can I be getting shocked off my faucet? This happens only in my
bathroom & laundry tub downstairs. It's not all the time, but it's a good
enough zap to make you jump.

In some areas, electricity is distributed through the water pipes. There
is a splitter, usually located outside or in the garage, that separates
the electricity and the water. It's very similar to the DSL splitter
that separates voice from data over the twisted pair wires coming into
your house.

Your splitter may be defective. Call the power company and tell them
what's happening, and that you believe that your Dihydrogen Monoxide
Electroresister Distributor is defective.

On 10/29/2013 10:33 AM, sms wrote:

In some areas, electricity is distributed through the water pipes. There
is a splitter, usually located outside or in the garage, that separates
the electricity and the water. It's very similar to the DSL splitter
that separates voice from data over the twisted pair wires coming into
your house.

Your splitter may be defective. Call the power company and tell them
what's happening, and that you believe that your Dihydrogen Monoxide
Electroresister Distributor is defective.

That happened to my cousin, last week. I'd
forgotten it, until you brought it up.

They may need to refill the blinker fluid.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..