On 10/28/2013 12:05 PM, wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:16:23 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/28/2013 09:50 AM, wrote:

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo wrote:

On 10/28/2013 07:14 AM, wrote:



snip



















If you want to do something before help arrives, I might *look* (but not







touch) for any clamps with wires that are attached to your water supply







lines. Incoming phone terminals, CATV lines, the circuit box area and the







furnace areas are places you might find a ground wire connection (no longer







code).















Now you're off in true lala land. Since when is it no longer



code to have those things grounded? In fact they all are



supposed to be grounded. Good grief. And to add to the foolishness,



what purpose is it going to serve for Fred to go looking for



anything when he obviously doesn't have the skills to diagnose



this serious problem?























He did not say /ungrounded/ he said grounded to water line





And again, who says that your circuit box (panel)can't be

grounded to the water pipe? In fact, it's a code

requirement that if a metal water pipe enters the

house that the panel be grounded in part to that metal pipe.



Not exactly. It useta be the case that a copper or steel water service

could be used as the grounding means for an electrical panel. Today, it

functionally can work that way, but it is not code compliant to rely on

the water service for the ground.

It's not code compliant for the water service pipe to be the
*only* grounding electrode, but it is code compliant for the
water service pipe to be used as one of the grounding electrodes.




However, you are still required to

*bond* the panel ground bus to the water service, assuming that it's

metal. So it still looks the same, but the reasoning behind that

identical connection is very different.



No it's not, because per code the water pipe may serve as
a grounding electrode. It's not just a bonding issue.



A new construction house would require an additional ground wire at the

electrical panel and that would go outside and be connected to a network

of several ground rods driven into the ground, *that* being the primary

means of grounding.



I don't believe NEC distinguishes and calls any one method
the primary ground. And there are other and better methods
of grounding in new constructions, Ufer being an example.
They do require that a water pipe can't be the only grounding
electrode.





The phone, CATV, etc. *should* be grounded back to the electrical panel,

although functionally if they are connected to the water service, and

that in turn is bonded to the panel, which is connected to a network of

ground rods, that will in effect be a more roundabout way of

accomplishing the same thing.


Agree, in new installs today they usually bring everything in
where the electrical panel is and ground everything there.
And that is the best way.

But Robert was telling the guy if he has a phone, CATV, etc
grounded to a water pipe that it's not code compliant. The
OP has an old house and if was done that way, then what he
has is still perfectly fine. There are millions of houses
out there with CATV, phone, etc grounded that way. There is
nothing in today's
code that says he has to change it, etc. Sending the OP
who doesn't have much in the way of electrical skills on
a wild goose chase based on incorrect info isn't productive.







And in older homes, not unusual to see the cable

or phone system wires being grounded to a cold water

pipe near where they enter the building. It's not

a safety issue or something that needs to be corrected.



Agreed, but like I said above, current code does not recognize a metal

water service as being a grounding means anymore but as something that

needs to be bonded to an accepted ground.



Not true. Check the NEC.

*If* you have a 10' long or longer metal underground water service, it
must be part of the grounding electrode system. However, you *must*
provide supplemental grounding in that case, and that has been the case
for quite a while. However, there are plenty of houses out there where
the ground/neutral bus in the main panel is bonded to the water piping
where it enters the house, and to no other supplemental ground, as that
was accepted practice in the 1970s and earlier. Those would have been
code compliant when built, but would not be code compliant today.

http://www.prospex.us/DOCS/ELECTRICA...NDING%20 .pdf

(page 8)

At one time most jurisdictional building authorities permitted and encouraged the use of metal potable
water supply piping as the grounding electrode because it was embedded in the earth outside of the
building. In fact, prior to 1978
, the National Electrical Code (NEC) specified the metal potable water
supply pipe as the first choice
for use as a grounding electrode and “
other electrodes
” and “
made
electrodes
” were acceptable only
“
where a water system (electrode)...is not available
.” If a minimum of
ten (10) feet of a metal potable water pipe to a building were buried in the ground, then that water pipe
had
to be used as the grounding electrode and no other electrical system electrode was required.
However, with the growing use of non-conductive components in such piping systems, their ability to
provide an electrically continuous and reliable elec
trical system ground came into question. Today,
buried metal potable water supply piping is considered by the NEC to be the least acceptable
grounding electrode and is the only grounding electrode that may never be used as the sole grounding
electrode
. It must be supplemented by at least one additional approved grounding electrode. While
metal fuel gas piping is to be bonded to the electrical system, it is
NEVER
to be used as a grounding
electrode
The connection of a conductor from any of the following is to be accomplished by use of exothermic
welding, a listed pressure connector, or other lis
ted means (“listed” means tested and approved for the
specific use by a qualified and recognized standards and testing agency such as Underwrites
Laboratories or the Canadian Standards Association):
1. The piping system to the service equipment enclosure
2. The ground
ed
/neutral conductor at the service
3. The grounding electrode conductor where such grounding electrode conductor is of
sufficient size (the grounding electrode conductor is the wire which connects the grounding
bus in the main panel (SES)
4. A Ufer, to the grounding rod, to any other approved grounding electrode
5. One or more grounding electrodes used for the service



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