On 11/7/2011 3:29 PM, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:

My feeling is it doesn't matter much what people believe.
What matters is, in practice, does
the religion cause harm or do good.

As much as I've tried to find reliable research on that,
all I've encountered are opinions, anecdotes and outright lies.

At least one religion I know of, Judaism, has no belief test; the official
Jewish position that any religion, to the degree it teaches and promotes
charity, lovingkindness, justice, mercy, and so forth is a good and holy
road to God.

Except for Mormons, of course.



(Just kidding on that last)


Yeah, but - what is the proper way to be a faithfully observant Jew? Is
it the Hasidim, who essentially spend every hour of their entire life
re-assuring God and themselves that they respect, obey, believe and
follow as literally as possible every commandment and law written in a
book that went through many centuries of oral re-telling, questionably
accurate translation into other languages and is an assembly of the
writings of many different authors - all of which were supposedly
infallibly transmitting God's words? Or is it the form of Judiasm
practiced by those in the Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative, or
the Orthodox branches? And even in each of those, each congregation
does it's "own thing" and essentially all members of each congregation
are doing their "own thing".

There is a belief test in Judaism. It's known as the "Shema".
see: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/shema.html

My feeling is that every organized religion has beliefs, traditions, and
practices that seem irrational or worse to the non-believers in that
faith. Unless we are serious about exterminating everyone who believes
differently than we do (and it would be a boring world if all of us
agreed about everything), we're going to have to figure out a way to
live and let live.

Somehow, the electoral process put Slick Willie in office
twice, and then later a foreign born Muslim in Chief, who
doesn't seem to like the free market. I dunno, this isn't
your father's politics.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...

She claims Cain wanted a BJ in trade for help getting a job.
As crazy as politics is lately, I think he could still be
nominated, but win? No way. Half the voters are women,
and there are still some people around with some semblance
of
morals. I hope.

--
Dan Espen

Maybe MOAB is fine, and the rest of the USA is a bunch of
elbow bending drunks?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"RonB"
wrote in message
...

But when we spent several days in Moab last fall, during
vacation, and
realized how they have the Utah liquor laws screwed up.....
well, I
didn't like 'em very much.

RonB

And, so many claim to speak for God. Try prayer, and
allowing a bit of time to listen for the answer. It's been
my answer that the God of the Bible is still out there, and
and still answers prayers.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mo Gasser" wrote in message
...
Oooops! My bad.

With so many religions to choose from I don't know which is
God's "official" one.




"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message ...
You may be surprised to hear that Watchtower is published
by
the Jehovas Witnesses, not the Mormons.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Mo Gasser" wrote in message
...

I don't hate the Mormons but I do wish they'd stop
stuffing
their Watchtower pamphlet in my front door.

Ever since my earliest days of contact with the LDS church,
many people have tried to distract me from the path of God.
After 20+ years of lies, distractions, slander, and made up
nonsense, I no longer find it funny.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bob-tx" No Spam no contact wrote in message
...

That is a great piece. Full of tongue in cheek humor.
Bob-tx

What makes you think that religion has a God?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

With so many religions to choose from I don't know which
is God's
"official" one.


You may be confused over a false premise. What makes you
think God even HAS
an official religion?

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
wrote

I think he could still be
nominated, but win? No way. Half the voters are women,
and there are still some people around with some semblance of
morals. I hope.

--
Dan Espen

You did not learn a thing from our last election, I see.


Maybe not. But the rest of the country sure experienced a teaching moment.

I do hope it stuck.

Steve

Not a chance. We are privileged to make the same misteaks,
repeatedly, make the same misteaks repeatedly.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve B" wrote in message
...


You did not learn a thing from our last election, I see.


Maybe not. But the rest of the country sure experienced a
teaching moment.

I do hope it stuck.

Steve

On 11/7/2011 12:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With a web site like this, people like me roll our eyes, and
wonder how any thinking person could be so badly mistaken.
About so many things. I think it's unfortunate that anyone
puts up such a web site. It's likely to be believed by many
people. Who (those people who belive it) will be further
misguided away from the truth.

That web site is worse than a waste of time.


Not looking at it but wait until Romney gets nominated.
The site condemning Mormons will be whitehouse.gov

On 11/8/2011 9:24 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And, so many claim to speak for God. Try prayer, and
allowing a bit of time to listen for the answer. It's been
my answer that the God of the Bible is still out there, and
and still answers prayers.

Your last posting bemoaned the elections of Pres. Clinton and Obama.
Weren't you praying hard enough?

On 11/8/2011 9:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Ever since my earliest days of contact with the LDS church,
many people have tried to distract me from the path of God.
After 20+ years of lies, distractions, slander, and made up
nonsense, I no longer find it funny.

I seriously doubt that the tenets of your religion is consistent with
your political perspective. I've known many LDS people and all of them
were (and are) compassionate, generous, loving and tolerant. I'm not
saying that you are not, but the consequences of implementing the
political views you support are selfish, venal, hateful and intolerant.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:30:07 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Worth noting, I won't be voting for Mitt Romney. He's far
too liberal for me.

Ah, so you'll be voting for the right-wing wacko, Barak Obama?

Frank writes:

On 11/7/2011 12:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With a web site like this, people like me roll our eyes, and
wonder how any thinking person could be so badly mistaken.
About so many things. I think it's unfortunate that anyone
puts up such a web site. It's likely to be believed by many
people. Who (those people who belive it) will be further
misguided away from the truth.

That web site is worse than a waste of time.

Not looking at it but wait until Romney gets nominated.
The site condemning Mormons will be whitehouse.gov

Please come back and remind us of your uncanny insight
when that happens.

--
Dan Espen

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 21:48:23 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:


"RonB" wrote in message
...
On Nov 7, 10:47 am, wrote:
Stormin,

This post is meant for you.
I think even you may find it amusing, if not I apologize:

http://tinyurl.com/4ylcjqc

Mormons: A shallow yet helpful guide to see if you should hate them or not

--
Dan Espen

To digress a bit.....

I certainly do not hate them.

But when we spent several days in Moab last fall, during vacation, and
realized how they have the Utah liquor laws screwed up..... well, I
didn't like 'em very much.

RonB

Utah's liquor laws are screwed up, but they sure don't mind getting the
taxes from it. But wait, there's more. They are thinking of privatizing
it, or maybe even having capitalistic competition. It seems the state run
Liquor Control is losing money. That's like having a whore house and losing
money.

Utah isn't unique, here.

Latest development, one of the high officials of the LCB granted his son
$370,000 in business with NO competing bids. The investigation is ongoing.

Nor here.

I have a friend who owns a bar in Moab. I wanted any old liquor sign or
neon for my shop. He said they have to sign for any sign or advertisement,
be able to produce it for any investigator, and get a signed receipt when it
is returned to the distributor. They may not dispose of or give away any
liquor related advertising item.

Here neither.

I buy my beer in Nevada or brew it myself. It costs up to one dollar or
more an ounce here for beer that has more than 3.2% alcohol. A plain six
pack is $9. I can brew the $1 an ounce stuff for $.08 per ounce.

A dollar an ounce? $12 per bottle? $72/sixpack? Come on.

BTW, I thought the article was hilarious. The babushka babes remind me a
lot of the plig wives I see at the local Walmart, the closest one to
Colorado City, AZ. 5 x 5 and one eyebrow.

Steve

On 11/8/2011 7:17 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:30:07 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Worth noting, I won't be voting for Mitt Romney. He's far
too liberal for me.

Ah, so you'll be voting for the right-wing wacko, Barak Obama?

Romney is a decent guy. He's the only normal person running for the
Republican nomination.

He apologized for bringing health care reform to Massachusetts:

"Every day I am haunted by the fact that I gave impoverished
Massachusetts citizens a chance to receive health care," Romney told
reporters Wednesday, adding that he feels ashamed whenever he looks back
at how he forged bipartisan support to help uninsured Americans afford
medicine to cure their illnesses. "I'm only human, and I've made
mistakes. None bigger, of course, than helping cancer patients receive
chemotherapy treatments and making sure that those suffering from
pediatric AIDS could obtain medications, but that's my cross to bear."
http://tinyurl.com/romneyapologizes.

Either Romney, or an Obama second term, would be acceptable. Both are
moderates. Both will have to raise taxes and cut spending.

I can easily imagine our Community Organizer in Chief using
every weapon against anyone who threatens his power.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Frank"
wrote in message ...


That web site is worse than a waste of time.


Not looking at it but wait until Romney gets nominated.
The site condemning Mormons will be whitehouse.gov

I was aparently outprayed?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Peter" wrote in message
...
On 11/8/2011 9:24 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And, so many claim to speak for God. Try prayer, and
allowing a bit of time to listen for the answer. It's been
my answer that the God of the Bible is still out there,
and
and still answers prayers.

Your last posting bemoaned the elections of Pres. Clinton
and Obama.
Weren't you praying hard enough?

And (stepping back a couple steps and leaving you to make a
fool of yourself), what political views do you think I hold?

Hint: My political views are totally consistent with the LDS
teachings.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Peter"
wrote in message ...

I seriously doubt that the tenets of your religion is
consistent with
your political perspective. I've known many LDS people and
all of them
were (and are) compassionate, generous, loving and tolerant.
I'm not
saying that you are not, but the consequences of
implementing the
political views you support are selfish, venal, hateful and
intolerant.

Since when is B'Ho a right winger?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:30:07 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Worth noting, I won't be voting for Mitt Romney. He's far
too liberal for me.

Ah, so you'll be voting for the right-wing wacko, Barak
Obama?

I don't consider the Obama spending frenzy (nor some of his
other behaviours) to be moderate. I think the Oh Bomb Us
regime needs changing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"SMS" wrote in message
...

Either Romney, or an Obama second term, would be acceptable.
Both are
moderates. Both will have to raise taxes and cut spending.

On 11/8/2011 10:31 AM, SMS wrote:
On 11/8/2011 7:17 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Romney is a decent guy. He's the only normal person running for the
Republican nomination.

He apologized for bringing health care reform to Massachusetts:

No, he didn't.
[fabricated quote snipped]
http://tinyurl.com/romneyapologizes

.... which expands to
http://www.theonion.com/articles/mit...lp-unin,20097/

You're apparently unaware that "The Onion" is satire, and that virtually
nothing posted there is true.

On 11/8/2011 10:31 AM, SMS wrote:
On 11/8/2011 7:17 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Romney is a decent guy. He's the only normal person running for the
Republican nomination.

He apologized for bringing health care reform to Massachusetts:

No, he didn't.
[fabricated quote snipped]
http://tinyurl.com/romneyapologizes

.... which expands to
http://www.theonion.com/articles/mit...lp-unin,20097/

You're apparently unaware that "The Onion" is satire, and that virtually
nothing posted there is true.

On 11/8/2011 11:07 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And (stepping back a couple steps and leaving you to make a
fool of yourself), what political views do you think I hold?

Hint: My political views are totally consistent with the LDS
teachings.

Your posts consistently denigrate liberal and even moderate political
positions, candidates and elected officials and misstate factual
information pertaining to them. You consistently praise the virtues and
defend the positions of politicians on the far right.

Which political views do you expect me to believe you hold?

Thanks for helping make my point.

Politically, I'm a conservative. I support small government,
honesty, and the freedom of mankind to make its own
decisions. Welfare should be the responsibility of families,
churches, and then (maybe) the lowest possible level of
government. The US government should not deficit spend,
possibly in times of war. The US government has no business
financing health care, or social security. This position
recognizes the goodness of people, and protects thier
liberty.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Peter" wrote in message
...
On 11/8/2011 11:07 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And (stepping back a couple steps and leaving you to make
a
fool of yourself), what political views do you think I
hold?

Hint: My political views are totally consistent with the
LDS
teachings.

Your posts consistently denigrate liberal and even moderate
political
positions, candidates and elected officials and misstate
factual
information pertaining to them. You consistently praise the
virtues and
defend the positions of politicians on the far right.

Which political views do you expect me to believe you hold?

Actually, the consequences of a conservative government are
the freedom to make their own choices. I find the hatred and
intolerance mostly coming from the liberal left.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..



"Peter"
wrote in message ...

I'm not
saying that you are not, but the consequences of
implementing the
political views you support are selfish, venal, hateful and
intolerant.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 07:31:08 -0800, SMS wrote:

On 11/8/2011 7:17 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:30:07 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Worth noting, I won't be voting for Mitt Romney. He's far
too liberal for me.

Ah, so you'll be voting for the right-wing wacko, Barak Obama?

Romney is a decent guy. He's the only normal person running for the
Republican nomination.

He apologized for bringing health care reform to Massachusetts:

"Every day I am haunted by the fact that I gave impoverished
Massachusetts citizens a chance to receive health care," Romney told
reporters Wednesday, adding that he feels ashamed whenever he looks back
at how he forged bipartisan support to help uninsured Americans afford
medicine to cure their illnesses. "I'm only human, and I've made
mistakes. None bigger, of course, than helping cancer patients receive
chemotherapy treatments and making sure that those suffering from
pediatric AIDS could obtain medications, but that's my cross to bear."
http://tinyurl.com/romneyapologizes.

Either Romney, or an Obama second term, would be acceptable. Both are
moderates. Both will have to raise taxes and cut spending.

You're fookin' nutz!

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:08:19 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Since when is B'Ho a right winger?

In all likelihood, them's your choices.

On 11/8/2011 9:31 AM, SMS wrote:

Romney is a decent guy. He's the only normal person running for the
Republican nomination.


There is another "normal person" still in the race. He also happens to
be a Mormon, an odd coincidence.

(Or has the Bilderberg Group taken over the Mormon church?)

wrote

Please come back and remind us of your uncanny insight
when that happens.

--
Dan Espen

It's actually messages from God written on secret plates. Since there is no
more secret metal, it is written on the INSIDE of toilet paper rolls. You
have to buy the secret ones, then expose them to ozone for the messages to
come out. Then you dispose of it the usual way.

Directly from the Big Guy.

Steve

"Peter" wrote in message
...
On 11/8/2011 9:24 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And, so many claim to speak for God. Try prayer, and
allowing a bit of time to listen for the answer. It's been
my answer that the God of the Bible is still out there,
and
and still answers prayers.

Your last posting bemoaned the elections of Pres. Clinton
and Obama.
Weren't you praying hard enough?

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I was aparently outprayed?


Or, God is a liberal.

On 11/7/2011 12:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
With a web site like this, people like me roll our eyes, and
wonder how any thinking person could be so badly mistaken.
About so many things. I think it's unfortunate that anyone
puts up such a web site. It's likely to be believed by many
people. Who (those people who belive it) will be further
misguided away from the truth.

Ah, yes. Truth. Elusive truth. Slippery slimy eel-slick truth. And, of
course, there is only one True and Correct Church, and the rest are all
liars, heretics, pagans, Gentiles, and misguided mistaken people.

History and archaeology work for me when it comes to truth. You might like
to investigate it one day.

Just the facts, ma'am. There is no history, archaeology, or DNA to back up
the claims.

What's that you say? The same can be said about Christianity? Well, yes,
it is a stretch to accept Christianity. But at least there are historic
places, artifacts, writings, inscriptions, and other things that at least
verify some things. The rest, you just have to take on faith. You either
believe, or not.

Steve

On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:12:33 -0600, "
wrote:

Either Romney, or an Obama second term, would be acceptable. Both are
moderates. Both will have to raise taxes and cut spending.

You're fookin' nutz!

Somebody get the butterfly nets.

While you're at it... get a straight jacket.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:46:24 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:

Ah, yes. Truth. Elusive truth. Slippery slimy eel-slick truth. And, of
course, there is only one True and Correct Church, and the rest are all
liars, heretics, pagans, Gentiles, and misguided mistaken people.


"When you find a perfect church; don't join it. It won't be perfect
anymore! -- Dr. Emit O. Ray

History and archaeology work for me when it comes to truth. You might like
to investigate it one day.

Just the facts, ma'am. There is no history, archaeology, or DNA to back up
the claims.

What's that you say? The same can be said about Christianity? Well, yes,
it is a stretch to accept Christianity. But at least there are historic
places, artifacts, writings, inscriptions, and other things that at least
verify some things. The rest, you just have to take on faith. You either
believe, or not.

Steve


1710 Georgia was full of Baptist. They landed in the colony seeking
refuge from religious persecution. That ******* King in England.

notbob wrote:
On 2011-11-08, HeyBub wrote:


Do you count answering a question by asking a question as an
announcement?

Ya' got me. Is that a Jewish thing, too?

Why do you ask?

On 11/8/2011 9:20 AM, bud-- wrote:

There is another "normal person" still in the race. He also happens to
be a Mormon, an odd coincidence.

Good point, I was only thinking about the lunatics, Bachmann, Perry,
Paul, Cain, etc.) and I forgot about Huntsman. He seems okay, but his
"economic plan" if you can call it that, is a disaster, more tax cuts
for those earning the most income. It didn't work in the past, so why
would he want to try it again?

When will a Republican candidate actually tell the truth about U.S. tax
rates? The average federal tax rate for middle income taxpayers has not
been this low in more than 50 years. Even when you add in payroll taxes
(Social Security and Medicare) the tax rate hasn't been this low in more
than 30 years. We cannot continue to cut revenue and balance the budget
without making huge cuts to defense, education, and health care.

The top marginal rate during WWII was 68 percent. During Eisenhower's
administration it went to a whopping 91%. Until the 1970's it war around
70% percent. OMG, where was Fox News? Economic growth rates were very
high and the middle class enjoyed prosperity.

Peter wrote:
On 11/7/2011 3:29 PM, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:

My feeling is it doesn't matter much what people believe.
What matters is, in practice, does
the religion cause harm or do good.

As much as I've tried to find reliable research on that,
all I've encountered are opinions, anecdotes and outright lies.

At least one religion I know of, Judaism, has no belief test; the
official Jewish position that any religion, to the degree it teaches
and promotes charity, lovingkindness, justice, mercy, and so forth
is a good and holy road to God.

Except for Mormons, of course.



(Just kidding on that last)


Yeah, but - what is the proper way to be a faithfully observant Jew? Is it
the Hasidim, who essentially spend every hour of their entire
life re-assuring God and themselves that they respect, obey, believe
and follow as literally as possible every commandment and law written
in a book that went through many centuries of oral re-telling,
questionably accurate translation into other languages and is an
assembly of the writings of many different authors - all of which
were supposedly infallibly transmitting God's words? Or is it the
form of Judiasm practiced by those in the Reconstructionist, Reform,
Conservative, or the Orthodox branches? And even in each of those,
each congregation does it's "own thing" and essentially all members
of each congregation are doing their "own thing".

There is a belief test in Judaism. It's known as the "Shema".
see: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/shema.html

Contrast the Shema:
"Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is One."

with the Apostles Creed:
"I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And in
Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord..."

"Belief" does not appear in the former but is essential in the latter.

As to your basic question, there is no "proper" way to be a Jew. It's a
matter of personal taste. A "good Christian" is much like "good barbecue".
Both should be hyphenated in that there's no such thing as a "bad" one. In
Judaism, one can be a "good Jew" and also an atheist.

Weird, eh?

On 2011-11-08, HeyBub wrote:
notbob wrote:

Ya' got me. Is that a Jewish thing, too?

Why do you ask?

Jes joshing. I got nothing against any racial or religious group [1],
but always wonder about stuff. Some things jes seem a bit peculiar, is
all.

While stereotypes, for the most part, are often silly, they don't pop
out of thin air. We could compile a list and pro/con it till the cows
come home. Bottom line ...in the end, it means nothing.

[1] I will admit to a negative bias against adherents to Islam and
Scientology. Not gonna get in their face or refuse them a "by your
leave", but likewise, not gonna invite one to toss back some brewskis
with me. :|

nb

Quoting Dickie Roberts, child star: "You're nucking futz!"

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 07:31:08 -0800, SMS
wrote:


Either Romney, or an Obama second term, would be
acceptable. Both are
moderates. Both will have to raise taxes and cut spending.

You're fookin' nutz!

You mean I don't get to use my Tony The Tiger (R) seceret
decoder pen, that works gggrrrrEAT!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve B" wrote in message
.. .

It's actually messages from God written on secret plates.
Since there is no
more secret metal, it is written on the INSIDE of toilet
paper rolls. You
have to buy the secret ones, then expose them to ozone for
the messages to
come out. Then you dispose of it the usual way.

Directly from the Big Guy.

Steve

That's a terrifying thought. God wants abortions, people on
welfare, fatherless families, case workers, lies, deception,
high taxes, and grand parents eating dog food?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bob F" wrote in message
...


Stormin Mormon wrote:
I was aparently outprayed?


Or, God is a liberal.