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#81
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:25:11 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
NO ONE suggested "banging on the flywheel". You are WRONG WRONG WRONG again. I'm sorry. That's a typing mistake made in haste. I agree. Nobody suggests banging on the delicate flywheel. MANY people suggested the following: - protect the top of the crankshaft - pry up on the flywheel from below - bang down on the crankshaft So I tried that, and failed miserably (damaging more than I fixed mainly because this is the FIRST lawnmower I've ever worked on). Much to my chagrin, belatedly I find out, embossed on the flywheel, are the words "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES" with two big arrows pointing to the untapped wheel puller holes. Direct link: http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/ Short link: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhejx Both the Briggs & Stratton web site and Sears sells the wheel puller that fits those holes (1/4 x 20) as part number BS 19069. Now I know so much more, thanks to all you guys. I just want the next guy to not bang on the Briggs & Stratton crankshaft when trying to remove their lawnmower flywheel. Thanks everyone! |
#82
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
In article ,
"James H." wrote: please let's all agree that the right way to remove THIS flywheel is to tap the holes and pull with the Briggs & Stratton flywheel puller P/N: BS 19069. 1. After we've all disagreed with you, now we're going to agree because you said "please?" That's very optimistic of you. 2. I do hereby publicly commend you for remaining polite while some of your detractors have not. 3. The title of *this thread* is "what is the logic ..." In that vein, I have a followup question: Do you or do you not now understand the logic? |
#83
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa wrote:
Smitty Two wrote: *"Bob F" wrote: There must be 100 special tools that are "required" to work on things I think part of this might well be a liability issue. I have used both methods... Thanks Steve Barker, Bob F, and Bob Vila for the information. As can be seen from the pictures published, the videos, the PDFs, and the tools sold, there are two main ways to remove the flywheel from a Briggs and Sratton lawnmower. For the expert (you guys), the bang-on-the-crankshaft method must surely work; but for me, admittedly a novice at working on lawnmower engines, the documented method to use a flywheel puller is the way to go. As can be seen from the posted pictures, they pry-and-bang method only netted me a broken intake manifold and the need to extract a broken screw; whereas the tap-and-pull flywheel puller method easily removed the flywheel sans damage. Let's all agree there are two ways, and the "proper" way is documented right on the flywheel in raised letters (which requires tapping the holes); but let's also agree that most of you are successful with judicious use of the pry-and-bang method which I personally do not recommend for anyone who has not worked on a lawnmower before. Thanks all for your help. I'm waiting for the parts to arrive so I can replace the blade, the manifold, the gasket, and the flywheel key. Thanks!!!!!!!! Jim Pictures of the flywheel lettering: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7...ttonflywhe.jpg |
#84
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:15:34 -0700, James H. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:25:11 -0500, Steve Barker wrote: NO ONE suggested "banging on the flywheel". You are WRONG WRONG WRONG again. I'm sorry. That's a typing mistake made in haste. I agree. Nobody suggests banging on the delicate flywheel. MANY people suggested the following: - protect the top of the crankshaft - pry up on the flywheel from below - bang down on the crankshaft So I tried that, and failed miserably (damaging more than I fixed mainly because this is the FIRST lawnmower I've ever worked on). Much to my chagrin, belatedly I find out, embossed on the flywheel, are the words "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES" with two big arrows pointing to the untapped wheel puller holes. Direct link: http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/ Short link: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhejx Both the Briggs & Stratton web site and Sears sells the wheel puller that fits those holes (1/4 x 20) as part number BS 19069. Now I know so much more, thanks to all you guys. I just want the next guy to not bang on the Briggs & Stratton crankshaft when trying to remove their lawnmower flywheel. Thanks everyone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI |
#85
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:50:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped. It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped. We already pointed out this in the owners manual. When I answered this you hadn't. Hi Bob F, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. My mistake. I think we can all agree there are two ways to remove a flywheel: 1. Pry and bang 2. Tap and pull The advice to pry and bang, for someone like me (I always said this was my very first lawnmower engine), is, let's just say, "problematic". In my case, using that method cost me a broken intake manifold and bolt, and time, and money ... which would have been better spent doing it the right way (i.e., the documented method, documented right on the flywheel, unbeknownst to me!). So, I strongly recommend that people new to lawnmowers use the proper approach, which is to tap the two holes and pull with a flywheel puller (I used a harmonic balancer puller available at any auto parts store). In the end, it would have been less time & money had I done the job properly. Too bad I didn't notice, in all the dirt and grime, the words clearly stamped (now that it's clean) on the flywheel (see the pictures posted at http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej): TO REMOVE (flywheel), USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES |
#86
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:26:41 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way and that everyone does it the wrong way for his type of B&S engine because it's faster, easier, and cheaper than doing it the right way. Both ways work. |
#87
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:09:14 +0000, Brent wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:26:41 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way and that everyone does it the wrong way for his type of B&S engine because it's faster, easier, and cheaper than doing it the right way. Both ways work. As far as I'm concerned the youtube vid illustrates the right way. First one I removed back in th 70's was under the instruction of a Briggs/Kohler/Tecumseh/Lawnboy authorized repairman. I purchased threaded jigs for different size crank ends designed solely as a aremoval tool to protect the thread end of the crank. I've repaired dozens of bent and sheared crank keys as a hobbyist small engine repairman for profit and as favors for family and friends and not once did it take me more than a rap or two to loosen the flywheel. And I never did any damage. I however don't recommend the average Joe to undertake the job in the first place as evidenced by this James H unfortunate experience. |
#88
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 12:29*am, Harry K wrote:
BTW if those holes were "designed to be tapped 1/4 x 20" they would have come from the factory that way. I disagree with this. Some things are built with marks or pilot holes so the technician knows where to drill for maintenance. A perfect example are the 3 dimples that Ford puts in their doors so the tech will know where to drill the holes to gain access to the three screws that holds the power window motor in place. |
#89
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 2:42*am, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:54:50 -0700, Oren wrote: Learn some tradition, I say. Hi Oren, I don't disagree with you on replacing the flywheel (I ordered one from Sears in fact, but didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion). However, please realize, that "tradition" is apparently dead wrong here. This is tradition:http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Bri...atton_flywheel James, the bottom line is, people have used the "hit with hammer and pry" method for years w/o doing any damage to whatever they are working on. I used that method to remove everything from AC compressor clutch/ pulley assembles, to wiper blade arms on some GM cars that are have Loctite on the shafts they are bolted on to. |
#90
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 7:28*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/13/2010 4:55 AM, Hustlin' Hank wrote: The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works well for those with experience. The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap holes and use a puller which may take much longer. It actually takes about 4 seconds. I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle case gets expensive and time consuming. On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the engine is to use a hammer. In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success. Hank -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yep, if you don't count the time to loosen the nut and spin it out far enough Harry K |
#91
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 1:59*am, "James H." wrote:
I uploaded some pictures which show the Briggs & Stratton flywheel and even the instructions on the flywheel itself to tap the holes. Direct Link:http://img251.imageshack.us/g/image001ol.jpg/ Short Link:http://yfrog.com/6zimage001oljx Web Player:http://img251.imageshack.us/slidesho...image001ol.jpg It's pretty certain by now that the traditional shock and awe method works; it's just not the correct approach for this type of engine (according to Briggs and Stratton and Sears). I ruined my flywheel and intake manifold trying that hammer & pry method, so, if you are going to use the brutish approach, it's best you use it on someone elses' engine. Thanks for all the help. I learned a LOT about lawnmowers. I'll let you know when it's all back together (parts haven't arrived yet). I realized I didn't have actual pictures of the flywheel being removed, so I'll re-enact them tomorrow in the daylight and add them. You are 'assuming something not in evidence'. That they say to use a puller in that stamping does _not_ say 'not to use the traditional pry/ hammer method'. I gaurantee you that if you were to take that mower to a shop and point out the instructions they would laugh and when you turned you back there would be a thump and the flywheel would be off. Harry K |
#92
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 1:10*am, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote: When you smack the crankshaft, the flywheel will want to tend to stay in place, while the rest of the lawn mower will go in the direction of your hit. So that makes three (somewhat similar) explanations so far: 1. Vibrations allow the friction to lesson 2. Move the crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch moves the flywheel up 3. Try to move the crankshaft down; it can't; so the flywheel moves up Please drop the "move it doen 1/8" inch. I have already told you at least twice that the person who said that was in error. The true distance is a few thousandths. Harry K |
#93
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
James H. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:50:28 -0700, Bob F wrote: If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped. It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped. We already pointed out this in the owners manual. When I answered this you hadn't. Hi Bob F, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. My mistake. I think we can all agree there are two ways to remove a flywheel: 1. Pry and bang 2. Tap and pull The advice to pry and bang, for someone like me (I always said this was my very first lawnmower engine), is, let's just say, "problematic". In my case, using that method cost me a broken intake manifold and bolt, and time, and money ... which would have been better spent doing it the right way (i.e., the documented method, documented right on the flywheel, unbeknownst to me!). So, I strongly recommend that people new to lawnmowers use the proper approach, which is to tap the two holes and pull with a flywheel puller (I used a harmonic balancer puller available at any auto parts store). In the end, it would have been less time & money had I done the job properly. Too bad I didn't notice, in all the dirt and grime, the words clearly stamped (now that it's clean) on the flywheel (see the pictures posted at http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej): TO REMOVE (flywheel), USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES There's an art to knowing what forces you can apply where on mechanical devices. You have just learned a bit of that art. I started over 50 years ago. The next time, you will know better. It might not be a flywheel, but you will think about what can be damaged a little more carefully, and hopefully avoid damage. Sometimes learning is harder than other times. |
#94
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
James H. wrote:
Notice, once the flywheel is cleaned and chalked, it clearly has embossed on the face "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES". It has two big arrows pointing to those untapped wheel puller holes. Is that like the custard tin lid that I licked the custard off of to find the lettering "Do not lick lid"? |
#95
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
I suppose if the OP had used the puller the 1st time and someohow broken
the flywheel (it can and does happen with a puller) he would now be maintaining how using a puller is "not correct for my Brigss and Stratton" engine. -- There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken) Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#96
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
In article ,
wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! -- There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken) Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#97
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
So you think using the proper tool is the way to change a flywheel?
You know nothing! This is how real mechanics work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQhfcdQf1QA |
#98
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 5:14*pm, (Larry W) wrote:
In article , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! LOL! |
#99
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
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#100
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:37:36 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote:
I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way As far as I'm concerned the youtube vid illustrates the right way. TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways QUOTE: "The best technique requires a special tool - a flywheel puller; the least preferred method requires nothing more than a hammer and a screwdriver, but can easily result in serious damage to the flywheel and or crankshaft." TITLE: http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm QUOTE: "There are several approaches to flywheel removal. The best way by far is to use a special puller designed for your particular engine. Briggs & Stratton and Tecumseh flywheels usually have 2 or 3 holes placed around the center of the flywheel which are used with special puller blocks. These have self tapping bolts which you thread into the holes and then tighten down nuts to pop the flywheel off of the crankshaft." |
#101
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:35:49 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote:
TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways I forgot to list the reference for the first quote comparing the methods and concluding the special tool was the preferred method. http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp The second quote came from here. http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm Both compared the two methods and concluded the special tool was safer. Do you know of any reference that compares both method yet still decides the hammer and screwdriver method to be preferred? |
#102
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 13, 5:44*pm, Brent beemdoub...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:35:49 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote: TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways I forgot to list the reference for the first quote comparing the methods and concluding the special tool was the preferred method.http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp The second quote came from here.http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm Both compared the two methods and concluded the special tool was safer. Do you know of any reference that compares both method yet still decides the hammer and screwdriver method to be preferred? It isn't a "perfect" means to remove the fly...it is the preferred method. Yes, you can damage the fly and/or crank...just miss-hit a few times (or one good one)! |
#103
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On 7/13/2010 3:36 PM, Harry K wrote:
On Jul 13, 7:28 am, Steve wrote: On 7/13/2010 4:55 AM, Hustlin' Hank wrote: The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works well for those with experience. The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap holes and use a puller which may take much longer. It actually takes about 4 seconds. I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle case gets expensive and time consuming. On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the engine is to use a hammer. In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success. Hank -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yep, if you don't count the time to loosen the nut and spin it out far enough Harry K I was counting that time. G -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
#104
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On 7/13/2010 4:14 PM, Larry W wrote:
In , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! Well, now that you mention it, if he had to have the flywheel off, he probably DOES need a new mower. Especially using the methods he's used. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
#105
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
James H. wrote:
What is the logic of banging DOWN on a lawnmower crankshaft in order to lift a flywheel UP? In another thread, I asked about how to repair a lawnmower that hit an obstruction and started running badly and then not at all. You guys correctly ascertained it was a bent flywheel pin (mine was shaped like a Z). I tapped two holes in the flywheel with a 1/4x20 tap and easily removed the flywheel with a harmonic balancer puller but only after I broke the intake manifold in half trying to bang down on the crankshaft as I pryed up with a pry bar. In the end, I conclude that banging down on the crankshaft and prying up with a pry bar is the wrong advice ... (1) Prying up with a prybar can easily destroy the intake manifold, for example ... (2) Banging down on the crankshaft appears useless to me My question: Why do people recommend banging DOWN on a crankshaft when you want to move the flywheel UP? What's the logic? The crankshaft isn't going to go down and the flywheel isnt' going to go up when you bang on the crankshaft. It appears, to me, to be a useless endeavor. But, since so many people have said to bang DOWN on the flywheel ... may I ask what is the logic in that? Hmmm, What do you do when hammer or axe is loose on the handle? Same principle! |
#106
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:22:44 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
1. After we've all disagreed with you, now we're going to agree Hi Smitty, I think we all agree at this point on two things: 1. Most experienced people use the pry-and-bang method to remove flywheels 2. Clearly it's embossed on my flywheel to use the tap-and-lift method Further, since I had never worked on a lawnmower before (that's why I asked for advice from you wonderful guys), the pry-and-bang method turned out to be dangerous (since I broke many things trying it) and that the tap-and-lift method turned out (for me) to work wonderfully. So, I hope we can agree that advice to newbies should include not only the most-often-used pry-and-bang method but also the suggestion to consider the more appropriate tap-and-screw method. 2. I do hereby publicly commend you for remaining polite while some of your detractors have not. Thank you. My only goal is to get the right answer and to post the results to help the next guy. That's what the USENET is all about, isn't it? If I had known what I know now, I would never have needed to ask the question. Now I consider myself well versed on the various methods (both good and bad) to remove a flywheel on my particular Craftsman Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine. 3. The title of *this thread* is "what is the logic ..." In that vein, I have a followup question: Do you or do you not now understand the logic? Yes. Completely. I'm sorry it took me so long to understand. I appreciate your patience. I hope the next nntp reader benefits from our wonderful and polite technical discussion. Jim |
#107
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove a flywheel?
Larry W wrote:
In article , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! That's what you do when the blade gets dull. |
#108
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
Larry W wrote:
In article , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! If he could have actually seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. My guess is he didn't really see it bend. |
#109
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 14, 8:30*pm, Tony wrote:
Larry W wrote: In article , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! *If he could have actually seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. *My guess is he didn't really see it bend. In my misspent youth, I tried big gear pullers on mower flywheels & as described they will flex and still not release. I have seen one bend, & put it right back into service. It never showed any sign of the abuse and served until the piston ring seal was so poor you had to mow with a screw driver in your pocket to adjust the mixture as it warmed up, at which point the entire rig was retired. I think the fragility of the flywheel is badly overstated. |
#110
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What is the logic of banging DOWN on a crankshaft to remove aflywheel?
On Jul 15, 8:34*am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:06:36 -0700 (PDT), Eric in North TX wrote: On Jul 14, 8:30*pm, Tony wrote: Larry W wrote: In article , wrote: I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to use. Seriously. Someone could be killed. Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already! Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! *If he could have actually seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. *My guess is he didn't really see it bend. In my misspent youth, I tried big gear pullers on mower flywheels & as described they will flex and still not release. I have seen one bend, & put it right back into service. It never showed any sign of the abuse and served until the piston ring seal was so poor you had to mow with a screw driver in your pocket to adjust the mixture as it warmed up, at which point the entire rig was retired. I think the fragility of the flywheel is badly overstated. One lone example is statistically of absolutely no consequence. I know a guy who chain smoked unfiltered camel cigarettes for over 60 years and didn't get lung cancer, too. True but it does prove that it isn't an absolute death sentence. |
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