James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE wrote:

Should read, "What is the logic of prying against your intake
manifold"

I don't disagree.

I'll have to snap some pictures though, as you'll need to see that if
you're going to go 360 degrees around the flywheel, you have to pry on
SOMETHING in all directions and the intake manifold was in front,
across the entire front of the engine, crossing from the air intake
on one side to the valve mechanism on the other side.

Of course, if I knew that dirty gray pipe crossing the front of the
engine was brittle plastic, I would have given up on the pry-bar
method. Besides, knowing what I know now, nobody in his right mind
would pry on anything to get this type of flywheel off.

The right way to do it, I found out belatedly, is to tap the two
pre-existing holes with a 1/4x20 tap and simply use a harmonic
balancer to lift the flywheel up almost effortlessly. The force is
high, but the effort is low due to mechanical leverage.

You don't pry to move the flywheel. You pry to move the crankshaft up a bit to
give it room to move down when you tap. Will saying it the second time get it
through to you?

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:

you were given clear, explicit explanations of why it works
and also that it is a common method of accomplishing the goal.

Hi Harry K,
I might have been given clear explicit explanations; but that doesn't
mean I understand the logic of banging down on the immovable
crankshaft.

The fact that so many people suggested that "common method", yet the
experience I had (where it couldn't possibly work) is what confuses
me.

I fully appreciate prying UP on the flywheel (although, as my
experience dictates, that's the absolutely wrong approach for this
Craftsman 3.5 HP Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine).

Every mower I've done this to has been a B&S engine. And it has always worked.
Sometimes quicker than others, but every single time. And I've never broken
anything.

But then, I was never reefing on the pry bar, since to only point is to lift the
crank by whatever play it has so it can move when you tap. Each time you tap,
the flywheel lifts a tiny bit, until it pops loose.

On 7/12/2010 8:03 PM, James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
As for breaking the intake manifold, that's your fault. You should've
looked before prying. Pry on something that isn't the intake manifold.

I don't disagree with you ... that it's my fault for breaking the intake
manifold by prying down on it.

What I learned is that this engine (at least) isn't designed for prying up
and banging down.

It's designed for you to tap a 1/4 x 20 thread into the two pre-existing
holes in the flywheel and simply pulling the flywheel off with a harmonic
balancer pulley.

I'll snap some pictures and post them so you guys can see all this.

Mostly I want the next poor guy to get the point that smacking down on the
crankshaft and pulling up on the flywheel might not be the first choice for
engines such as my Briggs and Stratton Craftsman lawnmower!

BUT it is the first choice. And if you had a B&S manual, you'd see that.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:44:23 -0400, Tony wrote:

you should come to the realization that you have no
knowledge and no apparent learning ability for basic mechanics and
physics.

Well, I've taken Physics 101 in college, so, I have a basic understanding
of static and dynamic friction. But I don't disagree that the explanations
given so far are, shall we say, problematic.

So far (please correct me if I state this incorrectly), we have (only) two
different reasons proposed for banging down on the crankshaft.

1. The vibrations loosen the fit between the flywheel and the crankshaft.

2. Moving the crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch, in effect, moves the
flywheel up 1/8th of an inch.

Assuming these are the only proposed reasons (again, correct me if I err),
I reply that both answers are "understandable"; but both are problematic.

The problem with hypothesis #1:
- If vibrations are what we're after, we could just as well (and perhaps
more safely) smack the red shroud on the lawnmower; or smack (lightly) the
flywheel itself; or smack the sturdier lawnmower blade. I guess vibrating
the crankshaft from the top is easier than vibrating the crankshaft from
the bottom; but what I'm saying is that vibrations don't have to come
directly from the top of the crankshaft. In my case, it wasn't anywhere
near as successful as simply pulling the flywheel up.

The problem with hypothesis #2:
- If moving the crankshaft DOWN is the goal, well what do you do when
you're done? Now your crankshaft is 1/8th of an inch too low. Do you pop it
back up from the blade side? If I understand the engine correctly, the
flywheel is on one end of the crankshaft and the blade is on the other,
with the piston in the middle. If you move the crankshaft down 1/8th of an
inch, aren't you moving the entire apparatus down 1/8th of an inch? Don't
you have to then move it back UP 1/8th of an inch?

Having said all this, I do recognize MANY people bang down on the
crankshaft (just as people kick the tires of used cars for some reason); I
just can't fathom any practical reason for the type of engine that I have
(which is designed to be removed by tapping the pre-existing flywheel holes
and pulling up leveraging down on the crankshaft).


Why don't you just admit that you were not able to do what thousands of
other people do successfully quite often, and to make matters worse, you
also broke something else in the process?

On Jul 12, 4:49*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:
you were given clear, explicit explanations of why it works
and also that it is a common method of accomplishing the goal.

Hi Harry K,
I might have been given clear explicit explanations; but that doesn't mean
I understand the logic of banging down on the immovable crankshaft.

The fact that so many people suggested that "common method", yet the
experience I had (where it couldn't possibly work) is what confuses me.

I fully appreciate prying UP on the flywheel (although, as my experience
dictates, that's the absolutely wrong approach for this Craftsman 3.5 HP
Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine).

So far I've heard that banging down on the flywheel "momentarily deforms"
the crankshaft ... and that ... somehow ... magically? ... allows the
flywheel to pop up on the tapered shaft.

Asking the same question here, and getting the same answers, isn't
going to change anything.

To add something that hasn't been mentioned (or I didn't see it). The
inertia delivered by the hammer affects the crankshaft, not the
flywheel (you are preventing it from moving).

At the end of the day you will just have to accept the fact that it
does work when done properly and won't cause damage to anything.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 6:55*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Try it.... has worked for me, for years. Yes, the
crank shaft goes down.

The fit between the flywheel and the crankshaft is a
slow taper. You only have to bump the crankshaft
down 1/8 inch or less, and then the friction fit between
the two shears. And the flywheel lifts off.

I rather doubt that anyone has advised to bang down
on the flywheel.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"James H." wrote in message

...
What is the logic of banging DOWN on a lawnmower crankshaft in order
to
lift a flywheel UP?

In another thread, I asked about how to repair a lawnmower
that hit an obstruction and started running badly and then
not at all. You guys correctly ascertained it was a bent
flywheel pin (mine was shaped like a Z).

I tapped two holes in the flywheel with a 1/4x20 tap and
easily removed the flywheel with a harmonic balancer puller
but only after I broke the intake manifold in half trying to
bang down on the crankshaft as I pryed up with a pry bar.

In the end, I conclude that banging down on the crankshaft
and prying up with a pry bar is the wrong advice ...
(1) Prying up with a prybar can easily destroy the intake
manifold, for example ...
(2) Banging down on the crankshaft appears useless to me

My question:
Why do people recommend banging DOWN on a crankshaft
when you want to move the flywheel UP?

What's the logic?

The crankshaft isn't going to go down and the flywheel isnt'
going to go up when you bang on the crankshaft. It appears,
to me, to be a useless endeavor.

But, since so many people have said to bang DOWN on the
flywheel ... may I ask what is the logic in that?

Why don't you just accept the _fact_ that it has worked when done
properly since B&S engines were first built? That it is also done by
almost every small engine mechanic that has ever worked on them? You
have been given clear explanations on why it works, You are just being
obstinate in refusing to believe them.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 5:07*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:55:16 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Yes, the crank shaft goes down.

I wonder WHERE it goes as there is nowhere "down" to go.

One end of the crankshaft is sticking up in the air with the nut loosly put
back on (to protect the threads) while the other end is firmly attached to
the lawn mower blade. The piston is in the middle.

Where "down" can it go?

You only have to bump the crankshaft down 1/8 inch or less

That's a LOT of distance for an immovable flywheel. Do you bump it back UP
1/8th of an inch when you reassemble?

I rather doubt that anyone has advised to bang down
on the flywheel.

I agree. What everyone said (and what utterly failed for me) was to pry UP
on the flywheel and bang DOWN on the crankshaft.

What worked (for me) was to tap the pre-existing holes and lift up on the
flywheel leveraging on the center of the crankshaft with a harmonic
balancer puller with two 1/4 x 20 bolts and washers (that bent like potato
chips from the force).

The 1/8" was a gross exageration. It is only a few thousandths but
that is all that is needed. There is _no_ mechanical assemblage that
does not have a bit of "play" in it.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 5:51*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:27:15 -0700, Oren wrote:
No one suggested he bang the flywheel
Like I said before, it's tradition to bang on the crank.

Mea culpa on the banging of the flywheel. I meant on the crank.

So far, this "tradition", passed down by generators, has the following
logic:

1. One said the vibrations lessen the friction slightly ...

2. Another said it moves the crankshaft DOWN 1/8 of an inch ...

I wonder if you actually do move the crankshaft down by 1/8 of an inch,
where does it go? At one end is the flywheel; in the middle is the piston;
and the other end has a blade attached.

If it moves down 1/8th of an inch, where does all that go? Do you move it
back UP 1/8th of an inch when you put the new flywheel back on?

Again, the one who said 1/8" misspoke. It is only a few thousandths.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 6:03*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
As for breaking the intake manifold, that's your fault. You should've
looked before prying. Pry on something that isn't the intake manifold.

I don't disagree with you ... that it's my fault for breaking the intake
manifold by prying down on it.

What I learned is that this engine (at least) isn't designed for prying up
and banging down.

It's designed for you to tap a 1/4 x 20 thread into the two pre-existing
holes in the flywheel and simply pulling the flywheel off with a harmonic
balancer pulley.

I'll snap some pictures and post them so you guys can see all this.

Mostly I want the next poor guy to get the point that smacking down on the
crankshaft and pulling up on the flywheel might not be the first choice for
engines such as my Briggs and Stratton Craftsman lawnmower!

So you "ham handed" your engine and now want to tell all the engine
techs out that that have done it for about 100 years it doesn't
work. See anything odd about that?

Harry K

On Jul 12, 6:03*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
As for breaking the intake manifold, that's your fault. You should've
looked before prying. Pry on something that isn't the intake manifold.

I don't disagree with you ... that it's my fault for breaking the intake
manifold by prying down on it.

What I learned is that this engine (at least) isn't designed for prying up
and banging down.

It's designed for you to tap a 1/4 x 20 thread into the two pre-existing
holes in the flywheel and simply pulling the flywheel off with a harmonic
balancer pulley.

I'll snap some pictures and post them so you guys can see all this.

Mostly I want the next poor guy to get the point that smacking down on the
crankshaft and pulling up on the flywheel might not be the first choice for
engines such as my Briggs and Stratton Craftsman lawnmower!

BTW if those holes were "designed to be tapped 1/4 x 20" they would
have come from the factory that way.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 8:17*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:44:23 -0400, Tony wrote:

you should come to the realization that you have no
knowledge and no apparent learning ability for basic mechanics and
physics.

Well, I've taken Physics 101 in college, so, I have a basic
understanding of static and dynamic friction. But I don't disagree
that the explanations given so far are, shall we say, problematic.

So far (please correct me if I state this incorrectly), we have
(only) two different reasons proposed for banging down on the
crankshaft.

1. The vibrations loosen the fit between the flywheel and the
crankshaft.

2. Moving the crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch, in effect, moves the
flywheel up 1/8th of an inch.

Assuming these are the only proposed reasons (again, correct me if I
err), I reply that both answers are "understandable"; but both are
problematic.

The problem with hypothesis #1:
- If vibrations are what we're after, we could just as well (and
perhaps more safely) smack the red shroud on the lawnmower; or smack
(lightly) the flywheel itself; or smack the sturdier lawnmower blade.
I guess vibrating the crankshaft from the top is easier than
vibrating the crankshaft from the bottom; but what I'm saying is that
vibrations don't have to come directly from the top of the
crankshaft. In my case, it wasn't anywhere near as successful as
simply pulling the flywheel up.

The problem with hypothesis #2:
- If moving the crankshaft DOWN is the goal, well what do you do when
you're done? Now your crankshaft is 1/8th of an inch too low. Do you
pop it back up from the blade side? If I understand the engine
correctly, the flywheel is on one end of the crankshaft and the blade
is on the other, with the piston in the middle. If you move the
crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch, aren't you moving the entire
apparatus down 1/8th of an inch? Don't you have to then move it back
UP 1/8th of an inch?

Having said all this, I do recognize MANY people bang down on the
crankshaft (just as people kick the tires of used cars for some
reason); I just can't fathom any practical reason for the type of
engine that I have (which is designed to be removed by tapping the
pre-existing flywheel holes and pulling up leveraging down on the
crankshaft).

Whoosh!!!!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And very repeatedly. That wall should be almost destroyed by now.

Harry K

On Jul 12, 6:12*pm, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE wrote:
Should read, "What is the logic of prying against your intake manifold"

I don't disagree.

I'll have to snap some pictures though, as you'll need to see that if
you're going to go 360 degrees around the flywheel, you have to pry on
SOMETHING in all directions and the intake manifold was in front, across
the entire front of the engine, crossing from the air intake on one side to
the valve mechanism on the other side.

Of course, if I knew that dirty gray pipe crossing the front of the engine
was brittle plastic, I would have given up on the pry-bar method. Besides,
knowing what I know now, nobody in his right mind would pry on anything to
get this type of flywheel off.

The right way to do it, I found out belatedly, is to tap the two
pre-existing holes with a 1/4x20 tap and simply use a harmonic balancer to
lift the flywheel up almost effortlessly. The force is high, but the effort
is low due to mechanical leverage.

Back to your repeated "because I couldn't do it, everybody who has
ever done (and continues to do) it is wrong, wrong, wrong" You have a
lot of manuals that you need to start rewriting.

Harry K

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:32:53 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:

The fact that you had to drill it for the bolts is worrysome, it wasnt
designed to be maintained and now is probably out of balance.

Allow me to clarify. I didn't drill anything. All I did was tap the two
pre-drilled holes in the flywheel. They are there, it turns out, expressly
for the purpose of removing the flywheel.

Apparently the proper way to remove this type of Briggs and Stratton
flywheel is NOT to bang down on the crankshaft while prying up; nor is it
to lift up on the edges with a flywheel puller; but it is to lift up from
near the center with the two bolts in those pre-drilled holes.

For some reason, Briggs and Stratton prefers us to tap the holes ourselves,
which I did with a 1/4 x 20 tap. Once I did that, the flywheel lifted up
easily with a harmonic balancer puller.

Point is not many people seem to know this so that's why the word needs to
go out that the other methods are deprecated for this type of motor.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:54:50 -0700, Oren wrote:
Learn some tradition, I say.

Hi Oren,
I don't disagree with you on replacing the flywheel (I ordered one from
Sears in fact, but didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the
discussion).

However, please realize, that "tradition" is apparently dead wrong here.

This is tradition:
http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Bri...wheel_removal/

However, the owners manual begs to differ with tradition:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...fRWxQAo5_C_ A

The ONLY way to remove this type of Briggs & Stratton flywheel is to tap
the pre-drilled holes and lift up with a two-bolt harmonic balancer puller,
the lifting force being near the center of the flywheel and the indented
tip of the crankshaft.

The "flywheel puller" is part #363 (Sears part number 19069, Briggs and
Stratton part number BS 19069) on page 38 and 39 of the Owner's Manual for
the Craftsman Rotary Lawn Motor, 6.5 Horsepower, 21" Rear Discharge, Model
No., 917.388853 with the Briggs & Stratton 4-cycle engine, model number
123K02-0444-E1.

Here is the flywheel puller for $7.50 online:
http://farmex.now.tc/catalog/product...oducts_id=2368

It's sheer folly to try to bang the flywheel off with shock and awe.
http://www.briggsracing.com/en/artic...el-puller.aspx

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:29:12 -0700, Bob F wrote:

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:

you were given clear, explicit explanations of why it works
and also that it is a common method of accomplishing the goal.

Hi Harry K,
I might have been given clear explicit explanations; but that doesn't
mean I understand the logic of banging down on the immovable
crankshaft.

The fact that so many people suggested that "common method", yet the
experience I had (where it couldn't possibly work) is what confuses
me.

I fully appreciate prying UP on the flywheel (although, as my
experience dictates, that's the absolutely wrong approach for this
Craftsman 3.5 HP Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine).

Every mower I've done this to has been a B&S engine. And it has always worked.
Sometimes quicker than others, but every single time. And I've never broken
anything.

But then, I was never reefing on the pry bar, since to only point is to lift the
crank by whatever play it has so it can move when you tap. Each time you tap,
the flywheel lifts a tiny bit, until it pops loose.

Hi Bob,
On the Briggs and Stratton web site, they explain the use of the flywheel
puller.

In the owners manual, they show a picture and the part number for the
flywheel puller.

While I definitely see "tradition" has it that almost everyone (except
Sears and Briggs and Stratton) recommends banging on the flywheel, that's
NOT the way to remove the flywheel on my Craftsman Briggs and Stratton
engine!

This video shows the (wrong) traditional method:
http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Bri...wheel_removal/

This is the $7.50 flywheel puller (Briggs & Stratton P/N: BS 19069):
http://farmex.now.tc/catalog/product...oducts_id=2368
http://tewarehouse.com/7-05979
http://www.jackssmallengines.com/service_tools2.cfm

The owners manual (page 38 & 39) show this as Sears P/N: 19069:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...fRWxQAo5_C_ A

Point is, banging on this type of Briggs & Stratton engine is sheer folly
when there is a perfectly cheap and effective method.

Even the Briggs and Stratton web site says (at least for their racing
engines) the ONLY way to remove a flywheel is to use a flywheel puller.

So, I'm just letting folks know the lessons learned. I asked. I got advice.
Most of it was wrong. But some of it was dead on right. I made mistakes. I
learned. I found out, the hard way, the right way. And I'm letting folks
know.

The only thing that had confused me was how the old way was supposed to
work (logically that is) ... and it turns out that it does work ... but
it's the wrong method to use for these Briggs and Stratton engines.

I need to post some pictures instead of responding with text.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:19:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
As for breaking the intake manifold, that's your fault. You should've
looked before prying. Pry on something that isn't the intake
manifold.

I don't disagree with you ... that it's my fault for breaking the
intake manifold by prying down on it.

What I learned is that this engine (at least) isn't designed for
prying up and banging down.

It's designed for you to tap a 1/4 x 20 thread into the two
pre-existing holes in the flywheel and simply pulling the flywheel
off with a harmonic balancer pulley.

If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped.

It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped.
We already pointed out this in the owners manual.

In addition, the Briggs & Stratton FAQ says to tap the holes with a 1/4 x
20 tap:
http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3422

This says it's dangerous (to the equipment) to smack the crankshaft.
http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp

Read this:
http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm
It says the same thing.

This says to use the flywheel puller:
http://www.ehow.com/way_5655790_brig...l-removal.html

The more I learn about this, the more I realize the "traditional" shock and
awe method is wrong (and dangerous to the equipment).

Yes, it works (for those of you with experience); but it's not the proper
method of removing the flywheel on this type of engine.

I'll post some pics for you guys to see.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:46:34 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
BUT it is the first choice. And if you had a B&S manual, you'd see that.

B&S says first choice is the flywheel puller:
http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3422

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:29:02 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:
BTW if those holes were "designed to be tapped 1/4 x 20" they would
have come from the factory that way.

Hi Harry,
I appreciate your input. I can't say why the factory doesn't tap those
holes, but, they have arrows and something like the words "tap here" on
them and all the Briggs and Stratton instrucions say to tap them, so, it's
pretty clear what to do (once you know the answer).

I suspect the reason they don't tap them ahead of time is pure cost; albeit
it can't cost a lot.

See these references, all of which say to tap the holes when pulling the
flywheel on a Briggs and Stratton engine:

http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3422
http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp
http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm
http://www.ehow.com/way_5655790_brig...l-removal.html

etc.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

When you smack the crankshaft, the flywheel
will want to tend to stay in place, while the rest of the lawn mower
will go in the direction of your hit.

So that makes three (somewhat similar) explanations so far:
1. Vibrations allow the friction to lesson
2. Move the crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch moves the flywheel up
3. Try to move the crankshaft down; it can't; so the flywheel moves up

I uploaded some pictures which show the Briggs & Stratton flywheel and even
the instructions on the flywheel itself to tap the holes.

Direct Link: http://img251.imageshack.us/g/image001ol.jpg/
Short Link: http://yfrog.com/6zimage001oljx
Web Player:
http://img251.imageshack.us/slidesho...image001ol.jpg

It's pretty certain by now that the traditional shock and awe method works;
it's just not the correct approach for this type of engine (according to
Briggs and Stratton and Sears).

I ruined my flywheel and intake manifold trying that hammer & pry method,
so, if you are going to use the brutish approach, it's best you use it on
someone elses' engine.

Thanks for all the help. I learned a LOT about lawnmowers. I'll let you
know when it's all back together (parts haven't arrived yet).

I realized I didn't have actual pictures of the flywheel being removed, so
I'll re-enact them tomorrow in the daylight and add them.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:05:58 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Someone else mentioned the vibration/shock of whacking something
with a hammer. It's an old trick that works for things like plumbing.

By now, I'm convinced the shock and awe method of hammering and prying
works, but I wouldn't recommend that method except on someone elses' mower!


Pictures here of my mower. I learned a LOT from you guys! Thanks!
Direct Link: http://img251.imageshack.us/g/image001ol.jpg/
Short Link: http://yfrog.com/6zimage001oljx
Web Player:
http://img251.imageshack.us/slidesho...image001ol.jpg

The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging
other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works
well for those with experience.

The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due
to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can
remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap
holes and use a puller which may take much longer.

I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines
use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the
weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle
case gets expensive and time consuming.

On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the
engine is to use a hammer.

In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success.

Hank

Thank you, Doctor. I concur.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news

I still don't get the logic of banging down (momentarily deformed
crankshaft?); but I haven't read all the responses yet.

This moron is just not going to get it. We're done here.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jul 11, 11:19*pm, "James H." wrote:
What is the logic of banging DOWN on a lawnmower crankshaft in order to
lift a flywheel UP?

In another thread, I asked about how to repair a lawnmower that hit an
obstruction and started running badly and then not at all. You guys
correctly ascertained it was a bent flywheel pin (mine was shaped like a
Z).

I tapped two holes in the flywheel with a 1/4x20 tap and easily removed the
flywheel with a harmonic balancer puller but only after I broke the intake
manifold in half trying to bang down on the crankshaft as I pryed up with a
pry bar.

In the end, I conclude that banging down on the crankshaft and prying up
with a pry bar is the wrong advice ...
(1) Prying up with a prybar can easily destroy the intake manifold, for
example ...
(2) Banging down on the crankshaft appears useless to me

My question:
Why do people recommend banging DOWN on a crankshaft when you want to move
the flywheel UP?

What's the logic?

The crankshaft isn't going to go down and the flywheel isnt' going to go up
when you bang on the crankshaft. It appears, to me, to be a useless
endeavor.

But, since so many people have said to bang DOWN on the flywheel ... may I
ask what is the logic in that?

At this point I wonder if you are a troll. You come here for advice,
you get it, it is confirmed by everyone who ever actually worked on
small engines, you then spend hours trying to prove them wrong. There
is little doubt a puller does a fine job on that task, I have a box
full of them, many do only one specific task, box must weigh over 50
pounds, there are some tasks that they are the only way to accomplish.
This task was was, deliberately I think kept to minimum tools
required. This is a tried and true method. I have a friend like you;
he comes up with a problem and goes person to person asking for
advice. He never takes it, he does what he was going to do anyhow, he
just likes asking and getting advice. He is more polite than you, he
doesn't argue, he just ignores everything you say. By any chance are
you a Sagittarius?

James H. wrote:

but after
seeing the flywheel actually bend upward, I gave up on that method also as
too dangerous.

You saw it bend? They don't do much bending, but they do crack. Throw
it out, you ruined it.

On 7/13/2010 1:14 AM, James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:32:53 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:

The fact that you had to drill it for the bolts is worrysome, it wasnt
designed to be maintained and now is probably out of balance.

Allow me to clarify. I didn't drill anything. All I did was tap the two
pre-drilled holes in the flywheel. They are there, it turns out, expressly
for the purpose of removing the flywheel.

WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is NOT what those holes are for

Apparently the proper way to remove this type of Briggs and Stratton
flywheel is NOT to bang down on the crankshaft while prying up; nor is it
to lift up on the edges with a flywheel puller; but it is to lift up from
near the center with the two bolts in those pre-drilled holes.

WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is NOT what those holes are for

For some reason, Briggs and Stratton prefers us to tap the holes ourselves,
which I did with a 1/4 x 20 tap. Once I did that, the flywheel lifted up
easily with a harmonic balancer puller.

WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is NOT what those holes are for

Point is not many people seem to know this so that's why the word needs to
go out that the other methods are deprecated for this type of motor.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/13/2010 1:42 AM, James H. wrote:

drivel snipped here


The ONLY way to remove this type of Briggs& Stratton flywheel is to tap
the pre-drilled holes and lift up with a two-bolt harmonic balancer puller,
the lifting force being near the center of the flywheel and the indented
tip of the crankshaft.

WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is not the only way. Actually, it's not
a way at all. Those holes are not tapped, so therefore a puller can't
be used.

rest of the drivel snipped

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/13/2010 1:52 AM, James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:29:12 -0700, Bob F wrote:

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:

you were given clear, explicit explanations of why it works
and also that it is a common method of accomplishing the goal.

Hi Harry K,
I might have been given clear explicit explanations; but that doesn't
mean I understand the logic of banging down on the immovable
crankshaft.

The fact that so many people suggested that "common method", yet the
experience I had (where it couldn't possibly work) is what confuses
me.

I fully appreciate prying UP on the flywheel (although, as my
experience dictates, that's the absolutely wrong approach for this
Craftsman 3.5 HP Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine).

Every mower I've done this to has been a B&S engine. And it has always worked.
Sometimes quicker than others, but every single time. And I've never broken
anything.

But then, I was never reefing on the pry bar, since to only point is to lift the
crank by whatever play it has so it can move when you tap. Each time you tap,
the flywheel lifts a tiny bit, until it pops loose.

Hi Bob,
On the Briggs and Stratton web site, they explain the use of the flywheel
puller.

In the owners manual, they show a picture and the part number for the
flywheel puller.

While I definitely see "tradition" has it that almost everyone (except
Sears and Briggs and Stratton) recommends banging on the flywheel, that's
NOT the way to remove the flywheel on my Craftsman Briggs and Stratton
engine!


NO ONE suggested "banging on the flywheel". You are WRONG WRONG WRONG
again.



--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/13/2010 2:04 AM, James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:46:34 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
BUT it is the first choice. And if you had a B&S manual, you'd see that.

B&S says first choice is the flywheel puller:
http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3422



WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is NOT what those holes are for.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/13/2010 4:55 AM, Hustlin' Hank wrote:
The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging
other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works
well for those with experience.

The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due
to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can
remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap
holes and use a puller which may take much longer.

It actually takes about 4 seconds.


I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines
use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the
weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle
case gets expensive and time consuming.

On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the
engine is to use a hammer.

In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success.

Hank


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:29:12 -0700, Bob F wrote:

James H. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 06:18:14 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:

you were given clear, explicit explanations of why it works
and also that it is a common method of accomplishing the goal.

Hi Harry K,
I might have been given clear explicit explanations; but that
doesn't mean I understand the logic of banging down on the immovable
crankshaft.

The fact that so many people suggested that "common method", yet the
experience I had (where it couldn't possibly work) is what confuses
me.

I fully appreciate prying UP on the flywheel (although, as my
experience dictates, that's the absolutely wrong approach for this
Craftsman 3.5 HP Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine).

Every mower I've done this to has been a B&S engine. And it has
always worked. Sometimes quicker than others, but every single time.
And I've never broken anything.

But then, I was never reefing on the pry bar, since to only point is
to lift the crank by whatever play it has so it can move when you
tap. Each time you tap, the flywheel lifts a tiny bit, until it pops
loose.

Hi Bob,
On the Briggs and Stratton web site, they explain the use of the
flywheel puller.

In the owners manual, they show a picture and the part number for the
flywheel puller.

While I definitely see "tradition" has it that almost everyone (except
Sears and Briggs and Stratton) recommends banging on the flywheel,
that's NOT the way to remove the flywheel on my Craftsman Briggs and
Stratton engine!

This video shows the (wrong) traditional method:
http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Bri...wheel_removal/

This is the $7.50 flywheel puller (Briggs & Stratton P/N: BS 19069):
http://farmex.now.tc/catalog/product...oducts_id=2368
http://tewarehouse.com/7-05979
http://www.jackssmallengines.com/service_tools2.cfm

The owners manual (page 38 & 39) show this as Sears P/N: 19069:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...fRWxQAo5_C_ A

Point is, banging on this type of Briggs & Stratton engine is sheer
folly when there is a perfectly cheap and effective method.

Even the Briggs and Stratton web site says (at least for their racing
engines) the ONLY way to remove a flywheel is to use a flywheel
puller.

So, I'm just letting folks know the lessons learned. I asked. I got
advice. Most of it was wrong. But some of it was dead on right. I
made mistakes. I learned. I found out, the hard way, the right way.
And I'm letting folks know.

The only thing that had confused me was how the old way was supposed
to work (logically that is) ... and it turns out that it does work
... but it's the wrong method to use for these Briggs and Stratton
engines.

There must be 100 special tools that are "required" to work on things I've
worked on. I've done just fine without once buying them, thank you. Just because
a manufacturer sells a tool for a job does not make that the "right way". And
just because you say it does not make it so either. If it does the job without
damage and is quick and cheap - it's the right way. Especially if it avoids
having to order and pay, and wiat for a special tool.

On Jul 12, 9:03*pm, "James H." wrote:
Mostly I want the next poor guy to get the point that smacking down on the
crankshaft and pulling up on the flywheel might not be the first choice for
engines such as my Briggs and Stratton Craftsman lawnmower!

Um, yes, yes it is.

Nearly every household in America has a hammer and a screwdriver of
some sort.

Few households have "harmonic balancer pullers," a very specialized
tool.

If you understand basic physics, the technique is not confusing at
all, is very simple, and very effective.

James H. wrote:

If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped.

It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped.
We already pointed out this in the owners manual.

When I answered this you hadn't.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:48:41 -0400, wrote:

I'm sure there are probably some things that you are good at. There
may even be some things that you are VERY GOOD at. Fixing machinery,
however, is OBVIOUSLY not on that list.

Hustlin' Hank wrote:
The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging
other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works
well for those with experience.

The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due
to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can
remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap
holes and use a puller which may take much longer.

I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines
use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the
weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle
case gets expensive and time consuming.

On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the
engine is to use a hammer.

In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success.

I think he has clearly proven you can. I you don't mind looking like a .....

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:48:03 -0700 (PDT), Eric in North TX wrote:

I have a friend like you;
he comes up with a problem and goes person to person asking for
advice. He never takes it, he does what he was going to do anyhow

Actually, I took the advice I was given.

I even bought the recommended Briggs & Stratton flywheel puller tool which
is supposed to protect the threads of the crankshaft as you bang on it (see
the photos). http://yfrog.com/6zimage001oljx

It just didn't work for me.

Partly because I screwed up royally (I always said this is the FIRST
lawnmower engine I've ever worked on). But also partly because I found out
after the method failed for me that it isn't the recommended method.

To be precise, I'm SURE the method works for most of you. I'm absolutely
positive of that, even if I'm not quite sure HOW it works - it certainly
must work for most of you because you all say so.

Anyway, I took all your advice. I screwed up. I found a better way (at
least from my perspective). And I took photos of it. I annotated those
photos. And I responded to all the serious queries.

I do thank you all.
Jim

In article ,
"Bob F" wrote:

There must be 100 special tools that are "required" to work on things I've
worked on. I've done just fine without once buying them, thank you. Just
because
a manufacturer sells a tool for a job does not make that the "right way". And
just because you say it does not make it so either. If it does the job
without
damage and is quick and cheap - it's the right way. Especially if it avoids
having to order and pay, and wiat for a special tool.

I think part of this might well be a liability issue. B&S drills a
couple of holes in the flywheel, and then publishes instructions to tap
them and use a puller. That way, if someone is inept enough to screw up
the hammer whack, damaging either the motor or himself, the company can
readily deny any claim.

On Jul 13, 9:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*"Bob F" wrote:

There must be 100 special tools that are "required" to work on things I've
worked on. I've done just fine without once buying them, thank you. Just
because
a manufacturer sells a tool for a job does not make that the "right way". And
just because you say it does not make it so either. If it does the job
without
damage and is quick and cheap - it's the right way. Especially if it avoids
having to order and pay, and wiat for a special tool.

I think part of this might well be a liability issue. B&S drills a
couple of holes in the flywheel, and then publishes instructions to tap
them and use a puller. That way, if someone is inept enough to screw up
the hammer whack, damaging either the motor or himself, the company can
readily deny any claim.

I have used both methods...I know there are times when a puller (the
proper one) will NOT work without the accompanied blow of the hammer.
This is due to the tapered shaft and the die-cast materiel of the fly-
wheel that tend to bond together.
The loosen, wedge, whack...is the preferred method by most small
engine mechanics that I have seen or known.
bob_v

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:18:31 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:
For some reason, Briggs and Stratton prefers us to tap the holes ourselves
WRONG WRONG WRONG again. That is NOT what those holes are for

I thank everyone for their help but let's not lead the next guy astray
please.

In addition to the instructions belatedly found in the Sears and Briggs &
Stratton PDFs previously listed, in response to this post, I further
cleaned and chalked the flywheel and posted a picture of it he
Direct link: http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/
Short link: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhejx
Web player:
http://img708.imageshack.us/slidesho...ttonflywhe.jpg

Stamped right on the Briggs & Stratton flywheel are the embossed words:
"TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES", with arrows pointing to the two holes.

If you don't believe me, please see the photo below (and please let's all
agree that the right way to remove THIS flywheel is to tap the holes and
pull with the Briggs & Stratton flywheel puller P/N: BS 19069.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7...ttonflywhe.jpg

Thanks again for all the wonderful help!

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:37:15 -0700 (PDT), Harry K wrote:

Back to your repeated "because I couldn't do it, everybody who has
ever done (and continues to do) it is wrong, wrong, wrong" You have a
lot of manuals that you need to start rewriting.

Hi Harry,

It's true I couldn't do it, but PLEASE LOOK at the picture here! (If not
for yourself, then for the sake of the next guy that gets the advice to
whack the crankshaft.)

Notice, once the flywheel is cleaned and chalked, it clearly has embossed
on the face "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES". It has two big arrows
pointing to those untapped wheel puller holes.

Pictures he
http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/
http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7...ttonflywhe.jpg

Very many web pages, it turns out, state to tap the holes and use a wheel
puller that fits into the holes. Even the Briggs and Stratton web sites and
Sears sells the wheel puller that fits into these holes (once tapped).

So all I'm saying, for the next guy, not for me, is:
1. DO NOT bang and pry this type of Briggs & Stratton flywheel
2. The correct approach is to tape two 1/4 x 20 holes & use the Briggs &
Stratton or Sears flywheel puller, part number BS 19069.

I thank everyone, yes everyone. Especially since I have NEVER before worked
on a lawnmower so I was very clumsy and broke a lot of things. But let's
all learn so as not to lead the next guy astray. The way to remove THIS
flywheel is not to bang on the crankshaft but to more gently lift up from
the pre-drilled un-tapped holes.