On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:25:11 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:

NO ONE suggested "banging on the flywheel".
You are WRONG WRONG WRONG again.

I'm sorry. That's a typing mistake made in haste.

I agree. Nobody suggests banging on the delicate flywheel.

MANY people suggested the following:
- protect the top of the crankshaft
- pry up on the flywheel from below
- bang down on the crankshaft

So I tried that, and failed miserably (damaging more than I fixed mainly
because this is the FIRST lawnmower I've ever worked on).

Much to my chagrin, belatedly I find out, embossed on the flywheel, are the
words "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES" with two big arrows pointing to
the untapped wheel puller holes.

Direct link: http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/
Short link: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhejx

Both the Briggs & Stratton web site and Sears sells the wheel puller that
fits those holes (1/4 x 20) as part number BS 19069.

Now I know so much more, thanks to all you guys. I just want the next guy
to not bang on the Briggs & Stratton crankshaft when trying to remove their
lawnmower flywheel.

Thanks everyone!

In article ,
"James H." wrote:

please let's all
agree that the right way to remove THIS flywheel is to tap the holes and
pull with the Briggs & Stratton flywheel puller P/N: BS 19069.

1. After we've all disagreed with you, now we're going to agree because
you said "please?" That's very optimistic of you.

2. I do hereby publicly commend you for remaining polite while some of
your detractors have not.

3. The title of *this thread* is "what is the logic ..." In that vein,
I have a followup question: Do you or do you not now understand the
logic?

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
*"Bob F" wrote:
There must be 100 special tools that are "required" to work on things
I think part of this might well be a liability issue.
I have used both methods...

Thanks Steve Barker, Bob F, and Bob Vila for the information.

As can be seen from the pictures published, the videos, the PDFs, and the
tools sold, there are two main ways to remove the flywheel from a Briggs
and Sratton lawnmower.

For the expert (you guys), the bang-on-the-crankshaft method must surely
work; but for me, admittedly a novice at working on lawnmower engines, the
documented method to use a flywheel puller is the way to go.

As can be seen from the posted pictures, they pry-and-bang method only
netted me a broken intake manifold and the need to extract a broken screw;
whereas the tap-and-pull flywheel puller method easily removed the flywheel
sans damage.

Let's all agree there are two ways, and the "proper" way is documented
right on the flywheel in raised letters (which requires tapping the holes);
but let's also agree that most of you are successful with judicious use of
the pry-and-bang method which I personally do not recommend for anyone who
has not worked on a lawnmower before.

Thanks all for your help. I'm waiting for the parts to arrive so I can
replace the blade, the manifold, the gasket, and the flywheel key.

Thanks!!!!!!!!
Jim

Pictures of the flywheel lettering:
http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7...ttonflywhe.jpg

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:15:34 -0700, James H. wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:25:11 -0500, Steve Barker wrote:

NO ONE suggested "banging on the flywheel". You are WRONG WRONG WRONG
again.

I'm sorry. That's a typing mistake made in haste.

I agree. Nobody suggests banging on the delicate flywheel.

MANY people suggested the following:
- protect the top of the crankshaft
- pry up on the flywheel from below
- bang down on the crankshaft

So I tried that, and failed miserably (damaging more than I fixed mainly
because this is the FIRST lawnmower I've ever worked on).

Much to my chagrin, belatedly I find out, embossed on the flywheel, are
the words "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES" with two big arrows
pointing to the untapped wheel puller holes.

Direct link: http://img708.imageshack.us/g/briggs...tonflywhe.jpg/
Short link: http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhejx

Both the Briggs & Stratton web site and Sears sells the wheel puller
that fits those holes (1/4 x 20) as part number BS 19069.

Now I know so much more, thanks to all you guys. I just want the next
guy to not bang on the Briggs & Stratton crankshaft when trying to
remove their lawnmower flywheel.

Thanks everyone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:50:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped.
It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped.
We already pointed out this in the owners manual.
When I answered this you hadn't.

Hi Bob F,

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. My mistake.

I think we can all agree there are two ways to remove a flywheel:
1. Pry and bang
2. Tap and pull

The advice to pry and bang, for someone like me (I always said this was my
very first lawnmower engine), is, let's just say, "problematic".

In my case, using that method cost me a broken intake manifold and bolt,
and time, and money ... which would have been better spent doing it the
right way (i.e., the documented method, documented right on the flywheel,
unbeknownst to me!).

So, I strongly recommend that people new to lawnmowers use the proper
approach, which is to tap the two holes and pull with a flywheel puller (I
used a harmonic balancer puller available at any auto parts store).

In the end, it would have been less time & money had I done the job
properly. Too bad I didn't notice, in all the dirt and grime, the words
clearly stamped (now that it's clean) on the flywheel (see the pictures
posted at http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej):

TO REMOVE (flywheel), USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:26:41 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI

I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way and
that everyone does it the wrong way for his type of B&S engine because it's
faster, easier, and cheaper than doing it the right way.

Both ways work.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:09:14 +0000, Brent wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:26:41 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plktb3a_-MI

I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way
and that everyone does it the wrong way for his type of B&S engine
because it's faster, easier, and cheaper than doing it the right way.

Both ways work.

As far as I'm concerned the youtube vid illustrates the right way.
First one I removed back in th 70's was under the instruction of a
Briggs/Kohler/Tecumseh/Lawnboy authorized repairman. I purchased threaded
jigs for different size crank ends designed solely as a aremoval tool to
protect the thread end of the crank. I've repaired dozens of bent and
sheared crank keys as a hobbyist small engine repairman for profit and as
favors for family and friends and not once did it take me more than a rap
or two to loosen the flywheel. And I never did any damage. I however
don't recommend the average Joe to undertake the job in the first place
as evidenced by this James H unfortunate experience.

On Jul 13, 12:29*am, Harry K wrote:

BTW if those holes were "designed to be tapped 1/4 x 20" they would
have come from the factory that way.

I disagree with this. Some things are built with marks or pilot holes
so the technician knows where to drill for maintenance.

A perfect example are the 3 dimples that Ford puts in their doors so
the tech will know where to drill the holes to gain access to the
three screws that holds the power window motor in place.

On Jul 13, 2:42*am, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:54:50 -0700, Oren wrote:
Learn some tradition, I say.

Hi Oren,
I don't disagree with you on replacing the flywheel (I ordered one from
Sears in fact, but didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the
discussion).

However, please realize, that "tradition" is apparently dead wrong here.

This is tradition:http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Bri...atton_flywheel

James, the bottom line is, people have used the "hit with hammer and
pry" method for years w/o doing any damage to whatever they are
working on.

I used that method to remove everything from AC compressor clutch/
pulley assembles, to wiper blade arms on some GM cars that are have
Loctite on the shafts they are bolted on to.

On Jul 13, 7:28*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 7/13/2010 4:55 AM, Hustlin' Hank wrote:

The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging
other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works
well for those with experience.

The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due
to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can
remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap
holes and use a puller which may take much longer.

It actually takes about 4 seconds.



I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines
use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the
weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle
case gets expensive and time consuming.

On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the
engine is to use a hammer.

In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success.

Hank

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Yep, if you don't count the time to loosen the nut and spin it out far
enough

Harry K

On Jul 13, 1:59*am, "James H." wrote:
I uploaded some pictures which show the Briggs & Stratton flywheel and even
the instructions on the flywheel itself to tap the holes.

Direct Link:http://img251.imageshack.us/g/image001ol.jpg/
Short Link:http://yfrog.com/6zimage001oljx
Web Player:http://img251.imageshack.us/slidesho...image001ol.jpg

It's pretty certain by now that the traditional shock and awe method works;
it's just not the correct approach for this type of engine (according to
Briggs and Stratton and Sears).

I ruined my flywheel and intake manifold trying that hammer & pry method,
so, if you are going to use the brutish approach, it's best you use it on
someone elses' engine.

Thanks for all the help. I learned a LOT about lawnmowers. I'll let you
know when it's all back together (parts haven't arrived yet).

I realized I didn't have actual pictures of the flywheel being removed, so
I'll re-enact them tomorrow in the daylight and add them.

You are 'assuming something not in evidence'. That they say to use a
puller in that stamping does _not_ say 'not to use the traditional pry/
hammer method'. I gaurantee you that if you were to take that mower
to a shop and point out the instructions they would laugh and when you
turned you back there would be a thump and the flywheel would be off.

Harry K

On Jul 13, 1:10*am, "James H." wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
When you smack the crankshaft, the flywheel
will want to tend to stay in place, while the rest of the lawn mower
will go in the direction of your hit.

So that makes three (somewhat similar) explanations so far:
1. Vibrations allow the friction to lesson
2. Move the crankshaft down 1/8th of an inch moves the flywheel up
3. Try to move the crankshaft down; it can't; so the flywheel moves up

Please drop the "move it doen 1/8" inch. I have already told you at
least twice that the person who said that was in error. The true
distance is a few thousandths.

Harry K

James H. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:50:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If it was designed for that, the holes would have been tapped.
It IS designed for the flywheel puller and the holes are not tapped.
We already pointed out this in the owners manual.
When I answered this you hadn't.

Hi Bob F,

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. My mistake.

I think we can all agree there are two ways to remove a flywheel:
1. Pry and bang
2. Tap and pull

The advice to pry and bang, for someone like me (I always said this
was my very first lawnmower engine), is, let's just say,
"problematic".

In my case, using that method cost me a broken intake manifold and
bolt, and time, and money ... which would have been better spent
doing it the right way (i.e., the documented method, documented right
on the flywheel, unbeknownst to me!).

So, I strongly recommend that people new to lawnmowers use the proper
approach, which is to tap the two holes and pull with a flywheel
puller (I used a harmonic balancer puller available at any auto parts
store).

In the end, it would have been less time & money had I done the job
properly. Too bad I didn't notice, in all the dirt and grime, the
words clearly stamped (now that it's clean) on the flywheel (see the
pictures posted at http://yfrog.com/jobriggsandstrattonflywhej):

TO REMOVE (flywheel), USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES

There's an art to knowing what forces you can apply where on mechanical devices.
You have just learned a bit of that art. I started over 50 years ago. The next
time, you will know better. It might not be a flywheel, but you will think about
what can be damaged a little more carefully, and hopefully avoid damage.
Sometimes learning is harder than other times.

James H. wrote:

Notice, once the flywheel is cleaned and chalked, it clearly has
embossed on the face "TO REMOVE, USE WHEEL PULLER HOLES". It has two
big arrows pointing to those untapped wheel puller holes.

Is that like the custard tin lid that I licked the custard off of to find the
lettering "Do not lick lid"?

I suppose if the OP had used the puller the 1st time and someohow broken
the flywheel (it can and does happen with a puller) he would now be
maintaining how using a puller is "not correct for my Brigss and Stratton"
engine.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article ,
wrote:

I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.


Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already!


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

So you think using the proper tool is the way to change a flywheel?

You know nothing!

This is how real mechanics work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQhfcdQf1QA

On Jul 13, 5:14*pm, (Larry W) wrote:
In article ,

wrote:

I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.

Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already!

LOL!

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:14:01 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already!

I hinted about a new mower upstream. I cautioned the OP about
replacing a (potentially) bent crankshaft. I explained the task may
require use of a pry and hammer.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:37:36 +0000 (UTC), Jeff The Drunk wrote:

I think the OPs point is there is a right way and there's the wrong way
As far as I'm concerned the youtube vid illustrates the right way.

TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways
QUOTE: "The best technique requires a special tool - a flywheel puller; the
least preferred method requires nothing more than a hammer and a
screwdriver, but can easily result in serious damage to the flywheel and or
crankshaft."

TITLE: http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm
QUOTE: "There are several approaches to flywheel removal. The best way by
far is to use a special puller designed for your particular engine. Briggs
& Stratton and Tecumseh flywheels usually have 2 or 3 holes placed around
the center of the flywheel which are used with special puller blocks. These
have self tapping bolts which you thread into the holes and then tighten
down nuts to pop the flywheel off of the crankshaft."

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:35:49 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote:
TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways

I forgot to list the reference for the first quote comparing the methods
and concluding the special tool was the preferred method.
http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp

The second quote came from here.
http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm

Both compared the two methods and concluded the special tool was safer.

Do you know of any reference that compares both method yet still decides
the hammer and screwdriver method to be preferred?

On Jul 13, 5:44*pm, Brent beemdoub...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:35:49 +0000 (UTC), Brent wrote:
TITLE: Flywheel Removal - The Right Way and Several Wrong Ways

I forgot to list the reference for the first quote comparing the methods
and concluding the special tool was the preferred method.http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...el_removal.asp

The second quote came from here.http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/lmfaq/lmflyrml.htm

Both compared the two methods and concluded the special tool was safer.

Do you know of any reference that compares both method yet still decides
the hammer and screwdriver method to be preferred?

It isn't a "perfect" means to remove the fly...it is the preferred
method. Yes, you can damage the fly and/or crank...just miss-hit a
few times (or one good one)!

On 7/13/2010 3:36 PM, Harry K wrote:
On Jul 13, 7:28 am, Steve wrote:
On 7/13/2010 4:55 AM, Hustlin' Hank wrote:

The "preferred method" is to use a puller because the risk of damaging
other components is lessened. But, the "traditional method" also works
well for those with experience.

The experienced mechanic will probably use the traditional method due
to the TIME it takes. Time is money for the professionals. They can
remove a flywheel in a couple minutes as compared to having to tap
holes and use a puller which may take much longer.

It actually takes about 4 seconds.



I have used both methods on various engines. Most motorcycle engines
use a totally different type of puller and MUST be used because of the
weak metal surrounding the flywheel to pry on (replacing a motorcycle
case gets expensive and time consuming.

On some of todays generators, the only way to get the armature off the
engine is to use a hammer.

In closing, whatever works for ya! You can't argue with success.

Hank

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Yep, if you don't count the time to loosen the nut and spin it out far
enough

Harry K

I was counting that time. G

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 7/13/2010 4:14 PM, Larry W wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.


Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower already!


Well, now that you mention it, if he had to have the flywheel off, he
probably DOES need a new mower. Especially using the methods he's used.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

James H. wrote:
What is the logic of banging DOWN on a lawnmower crankshaft in order to
lift a flywheel UP?

In another thread, I asked about how to repair a lawnmower that hit an
obstruction and started running badly and then not at all. You guys
correctly ascertained it was a bent flywheel pin (mine was shaped like a
Z).

I tapped two holes in the flywheel with a 1/4x20 tap and easily removed the
flywheel with a harmonic balancer puller but only after I broke the intake
manifold in half trying to bang down on the crankshaft as I pryed up with a
pry bar.

In the end, I conclude that banging down on the crankshaft and prying up
with a pry bar is the wrong advice ...
(1) Prying up with a prybar can easily destroy the intake manifold, for
example ...
(2) Banging down on the crankshaft appears useless to me

My question:
Why do people recommend banging DOWN on a crankshaft when you want to move
the flywheel UP?

What's the logic?

The crankshaft isn't going to go down and the flywheel isnt' going to go up
when you bang on the crankshaft. It appears, to me, to be a useless
endeavor.

But, since so many people have said to bang DOWN on the flywheel ... may I
ask what is the logic in that?
Hmmm,
What do you do when hammer or axe is loose on the handle?
Same principle!

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:22:44 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
1. After we've all disagreed with you, now we're going to agree

Hi Smitty,
I think we all agree at this point on two things:
1. Most experienced people use the pry-and-bang method to remove flywheels
2. Clearly it's embossed on my flywheel to use the tap-and-lift method

Further, since I had never worked on a lawnmower before (that's why I asked
for advice from you wonderful guys), the pry-and-bang method turned out to
be dangerous (since I broke many things trying it) and that the
tap-and-lift method turned out (for me) to work wonderfully.

So, I hope we can agree that advice to newbies should include not only the
most-often-used pry-and-bang method but also the suggestion to consider the
more appropriate tap-and-screw method.

2. I do hereby publicly commend you for remaining polite while some of
your detractors have not.

Thank you. My only goal is to get the right answer and to post the results
to help the next guy. That's what the USENET is all about, isn't it?

If I had known what I know now, I would never have needed to ask the
question. Now I consider myself well versed on the various methods (both
good and bad) to remove a flywheel on my particular Craftsman Briggs and
Stratton lawnmower engine.

3. The title of *this thread* is "what is the logic ..." In that vein,
I have a followup question: Do you or do you not now understand the
logic?

Yes. Completely. I'm sorry it took me so long to understand. I appreciate
your patience. I hope the next nntp reader benefits from our wonderful and
polite technical discussion.

Jim

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.


Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower
already!

That's what you do when the blade gets dull.

Larry W wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.

Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower
already!

Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! If he could have actually
seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. My guess is he didn't really
see it bend.

On Jul 14, 8:30*pm, Tony wrote:
Larry W wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.

Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower
already!

Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! *If he could have actually
seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. *My guess is he didn't really
see it bend.

In my misspent youth, I tried big gear pullers on mower flywheels & as
described they will flex and still not release. I have seen one bend,
& put it right back into service. It never showed any sign of the
abuse and served until the piston ring seal was so poor you had to mow
with a screw driver in your pocket to adjust the mixture as it warmed
up, at which point the entire rig was retired. I think the fragility
of the flywheel is badly overstated.

On Jul 15, 8:34*am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:06:36 -0700 (PDT), Eric in North TX



wrote:
On Jul 14, 8:30*pm, Tony wrote:
Larry W wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
I sure hope you ordered a new flywheel. That one is now dangerous to
use. Seriously. Someone could be killed.

Oh for God's sake! Why not just recommend he buy a whole new mower
already!

Seriously, he said he SAW the flywheel bend! *If he could have actually
seen it bend, it's most likely cracked. *My guess is he didn't really
see it bend.

In my misspent youth, I tried big gear pullers on mower flywheels & as
described they will flex and still not release. I have seen one bend,
& put it right back into service. It never showed any sign of the
abuse and served until the piston ring seal was so poor you had to mow
with a screw driver in your pocket to adjust the mixture as it warmed
up, at which point the entire rig was retired. I think the fragility
of the flywheel is badly overstated.

One lone example is statistically of absolutely no consequence. I know
a guy who chain smoked unfiltered camel cigarettes for over 60 years
and didn't get lung cancer, too.

True but it does prove that it isn't an absolute death sentence.