Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Woodworking (rec.woodworking) Discussion forum covering all aspects of working with wood. All levels of expertise are encouraged to particiapte. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home. |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home. I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new switch assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I want to actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an 80 or 90 mile drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone who is insured to pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started investigating how to get that done. Thanks, Bill |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/15/2018 3:52 AM, Bill wrote:
.... I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new switch assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I want to actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an 80 or 90 mile drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone who is insured to pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started investigating how to get that done.Â* Thanks, Bill It'll have 3Ph mag starter; you can wire it to only use the two sides of the single phase but you'll need to resize the heaters to match the single phase current of your replacement motor. I put in a 3PH converter to bring the PM 180 planer and a 5 HP DC but it was more like 10X (not quite) the $89...it's rotary and capable of 10 HP continuous, though, not just "phantom" third phase that is likely what the $89 is from capacitors only https://www.phoenixphaseconverters.com/Shop/rotary-phase-converters.html As OFWW says, look at seeing if can find single-phase motor used; for home use undoubtedly you can get by with less motor than 3 hp, too, and never know the difference. On a 3hp, you'll be talking FLA of 16-20 A; you'll almost certainly have to have #10/30A circuit wiring for 240V operation; it'll be 30A at 120V which also gets to be somewhat of pain for just home workshop. -- |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill Bill, I blew the inverter on my WoodFast lathe a about a year ago and went looking for a replacement. I finally settled on a direct replacement, via Ebay. But in the process, I noticed Grizzly has several and the price is not all that bad. Just a thought. |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill As for the size, depends on the draw of your motor. Again, check Grizzly. |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400
Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to why such a big jointer why a jointer at all really what you making |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/15/2018 7:45 AM, dpb wrote:
.... On a 3hp, you'll be talking FLA of 16-20 A; you'll almost certainly have to have #10/30A circuit wiring for 240V operation; it'll be 30A at 120V which also gets to be somewhat of pain for just home workshop. .... BTW, if you do choose to go the converter route, remember the supply wiring to the converter has to be sized for the current based on the single phase supply...that has much to do with where you would want to install it to keep that run short. -- |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/15/2018 1:55 AM, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not.Â* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill I've studiously avoided any 3-phase machines although I have 4 different 3-horsepower motors in the shop -- it always seemed to be too much effort. But if you are really interested in a phase converter, I just saw a 7-1/2HP rotary converter on ebay for $389. I'd really be dubious of a $89 unit's abilities. Not affiliated or anything... https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-1-2-Hp-St...-/142825491921 |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not.Â* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill 3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor. A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor." The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and 3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart. If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it. Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp. I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a fudge factor on top of that for safety. 3 X 800 = 2400 watts. 2400 / 220= 10.9 amps. You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc. Still with nearly double the fudge factor... Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway. |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
Bob La Londe wrote:
On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not.Â* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill 3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps.Â* The reality it may peak a little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor. A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will run much 3 phase stuff.Â* I don't recall the derating, but its something like 30-40%.Â* ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor.Â* If all you wil ever run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase converter.Â* Just remember that the derating is higher.Â* Its best to see if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor." The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop.Â* When used 1ph in and 3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite variable speed control.Â* Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog power signal controls frequency and rpm.Â* Others I just use the controls on the VFD.Â* With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart. Â*If they are inverter rated they may handle more.Â* If you have one of those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase motor controlled by a VFD already.Â* You just didn't know it. Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on a 20 amp 220V circuit.Â* Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp. I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts.Â* I always figure 800 and then add a fudge factor on top of that for safety. 3 X 800 = 2400 watts. 2400 / 220= 10.9 amps. You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc. Still with nearly double the fudge factor... Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway. Thank you Bob, and to everyone else who responded concerning my question! Your posts are helpful and informative, and will form a permanent part of my ongoing education regarding related matters. Bill |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 04:52:22 -0400, Bill wrote:
OFWW wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home. I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new switch assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I want to actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an 80 or 90 mile drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone who is insured to pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started investigating how to get that done. Thanks, Bill dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible. an electrician or you could rewire the control circuit, but you would have to change the overload heaters for the 1ph motor and you would also have to see what the switch was rated for, as the contacts might be undersized for the motor amperage. The contacts should be inspected to see what kind of condition they are in, not burnt, not badly pitted or they would require changing out anyhow. and depending on the age and brand it might limit what you can get in an electrical supply store. WW Grainger has an online catalogue that can help if you know what you are looking for. Also, if you can tow, then a one way trailer could be used, but you would have to verify that, and it would be easier to get it in a trailer than on and off a flat bed. |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:08:38 AM UTC-5, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. Bill 3HP is a lot for a home shop jointer. An 8" jointer needs only 1HP. If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a single phase motor, for pricing. Agreed. Single phase 1hp motors can be had for $150, there abouts. A switch is a nominal cost. As to the jointer's 3ph motor, sell it on Craigslist, if you can, or for scrap metal - about $5. Might can sell the 3ph switch, alone, also - $25? Sonny |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:25:52 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote: On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.* I'd like to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit? Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the task?* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the task or not.* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. Thanks! Bill 3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor. A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor." The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and 3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart. If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it. Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp. I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a fudge factor on top of that for safety. 3 X 800 = 2400 watts. 2400 / 220= 10.9 amps. You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc. Still with nearly double the fudge factor... Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway. In the US, your 220V is even properly called "240V" (twice 120V). ;-) 3HP on a 240V circuit is no problem at all. My Unisaur has a 3HP motor and I have it on a 20A circuit (12/2). 30A is overkill. |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote:
.... dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible. .... 3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask. The question of vintage and availability of heaters is a good one altho most old models of the usual manufacturers one can find replacement heaters for or others will cross. -- |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:22:32 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/16/2018 9:11 AM, wrote: ... 3HP on a 240V circuit is no problem at all. My Unisaur has a 3HP motor and I have it on a 20A circuit (12/2). 30A is overkill. They're using good-efficiency motors to get that; an off-the-shelf inexpensive or particularly an older used may not...I was deliberately being conservative. But 3HP is only ~2400W. A 20A 240V circuit has 4800VA available. Piece of cake. |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote: ... dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible. ... 3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask. But included on the jointer itself? I wish I could see pictures of it. He didn't say if it was an 8,10,etc inch jointer The jointer could have a low voltage SP switch, 24v, 110v, or 220v depending on the coil in the mag. For some reason in the back of my mind I keep thinking of a 3p switch with overload heaters, fed by a 3p knife switch fused or non fused. I have seen a lot of weird things in my day. The question of vintage and availability of heaters is a good one altho most old models of the usual manufacturers one can find replacement heaters for or others will cross. |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 10:55 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote: On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote: ... dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible. ... 3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask. But included on the jointer itself? I wish I could see pictures of it. He didn't say if it was an 8,10,etc inch jointer .... I would certainly expect a one-unit starter, yes, with just remote push button switch mounted somewhere on the machine. Wouldn't ever dream of buying without at least pictures and details, certainly, but my expectation until shown different would be something similar to shorturl.at/rIPX9 which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of arrangement is what I would certainly expect. I bought a dozen or so of these puppies used/reclaimed off old machines 30 yr or so ago and retrofitted them to everything in the shop 240V. Still have a decent stash... Many single-phase machines did come with mechanical switches, true, but it's pretty-much unheard of in the 3ph world. Now again, if this started out as something else and was retrofitted, then anything is possible, granted; I was just presuming it's an old OEM setup from somebody; Crescent, Rockwell, Oliver, ... -- |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 11:24 AM, dpb wrote:
.... ... my expectation until shown different would be something similar to shorturl.at/rIPX9 which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of arrangement is what I would certainly expect. .... I just now noticed somebody removed the other two heater blocks from this one to use it on single phase; there's no need to do that, just jumper the neutral (L2) and leave L3 empty (or even with the heater there; there's just no connection so totally immaterial). -- |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 11:28:26 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/16/2018 11:24 AM, dpb wrote: ... ... my expectation until shown different would be something similar to shorturl.at/rIPX9 which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of arrangement is what I would certainly expect. ... I just now noticed somebody removed the other two heater blocks from this one to use it on single phase; there's no need to do that, just jumper the neutral (L2) and leave L3 empty (or even with the heater there; there's just no connection so totally immaterial). Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote:
.... Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just shorturl.at/rIPX9 -- |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote: ... Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just shorturl.at/rIPX9 That worked when I did a cut n paste. Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit. However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough for clarification there. |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 2:01 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote: On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote: ... Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just shorturl.at/rIPX9 That worked when I did a cut n paste. Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit. However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough for clarification there. You're right; that's a cobbed-up hookup fer sure...at the smaller pitchures over on the RHS there's a wiring diagram for a single-phase version but not a picture of the guts of one. There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied starters at the OWWM site http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to be... I'll try to go take a picture or two here; I have one in PM gold, even -- when I bought the Model 66 from factory in McMinnville, I ordered it w/o electrics to save a few bucks since I had already gotten the stash figured might as well use one of them instead of giving Powermatic another $50 or whatever it was...seemed like a lot of money then! -- |
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 15:41:26 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 6/16/2018 2:01 PM, OFWW wrote: On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote: On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote: ... Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just shorturl.at/rIPX9 That worked when I did a cut n paste. Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit. However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough for clarification there. You're right; that's a cobbed-up hookup fer sure...at the smaller pitchures over on the RHS there's a wiring diagram for a single-phase version but not a picture of the guts of one. There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied starters at the OWWM site http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to be... WOW! I kept a copy of that just for old times sake. While some of the circuits don't have the proper safeties for full power cut off, it did show that circuit that was in the back of my mind. And this diagram should be of great interest to the OP as it shows all the variables. Albeit the new stuff is somewhat different but the circuits should still be applicable if used per local code. I'll try to go take a picture or two here; I have one in PM gold, even -- when I bought the Model 66 from factory in McMinnville, I ordered it w/o electrics to save a few bucks since I had already gotten the stash figured might as well use one of them instead of giving Powermatic another $50 or whatever it was...seemed like a lot of money then! |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote: On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote: ... dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible. Look at Item #5 on the list. Item #6 looks like the switch has been modified. Those are the only differences I can see from the pics. http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21941 BTW, the people that run these auctions aren't good at answering questions. Last time I went to look at a machine, the electric had been turned off and they couldn't even turn it on. Bill |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
Often times, those furniture companies use auto feeders with those tools, hence the 3hp motors to handle the feed rate. A hobby shop only needs 1.5hp to 2hp for hand feeding stock. My 8" jointer has a 1.5hp, 3450 rpm, single phase, 110V, induction motor. It has never bogged down, in the slightest. Baldor, Leeson, Marathon are expensive, as are Powermatics replacement motors. Grizzly has a 1hp motor for $200. Their 2hp motor is $225 - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...10V-220V/G2535 Would need to check the mounting plate. A sale is coming soon in Peru, IN. The listings aren't shown, yet. The announcement-list mentions jointers (plural) and maintenance equipment & supplies ....might there be some motors? Isn't Peru much closer to you? Might be worth the wait-n-see what's offered, there. http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21935 Sonny |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
Sonny wrote:
Often times, those furniture companies use auto feeders with those tools, hence the 3hp motors to handle the feed rate. A hobby shop only needs 1.5hp to 2hp for hand feeding stock. My 8" jointer has a 1.5hp, 3450 rpm, single phase, 110V, induction motor. It has never bogged down, in the slightest. Baldor, Leeson, Marathon are expensive, as are Powermatics replacement motors. Grizzly has a 1hp motor for $200. Their 2hp motor is $225 - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...10V-220V/G2535 Would need to check the mounting plate. A sale is coming soon in Peru, IN. The listings aren't shown, yet. The announcement-list mentions jointers (plural) and maintenance equipment & supplies ....might there be some motors? Isn't Peru much closer to you? Might be worth the wait-n-see what's offered, there. http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21935 Sonny Sonny, Thanks for the heads up. Peru is about 90 miles from Indianapolis too, closer to Fort Wayne. I've spent most of my free time this month on spring cleanup. A few more details and I'll get to "shop cleanup". 94-degrees here today. |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400 Bill wrote: I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to why such a big jointer 8-inch is a typical size. Sonny pointed out it would be fine with a 1 or 2 hp motor, if hand fed. what you making I was thinking of adding some capitals to my posts. Bill |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 7:07 PM, Bill wrote:
.... Look at Item #5 on the list. Item #6 looks like the switch has been modified.Â*Â* Those are the only differences I can see from the pics. http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21941 .... For something that small presuming you could win at a few hundred $, just plan on trashing the motor and use what of the electrics you can; I'd bid on the cheaper one probably because folks will see the switch has been moved and figure something's wrong with it; even if it doesn't work replacements are easy and not expensive. The base machines look in pretty good shape; that's all one really needs. I thought we were talking something serious like a 12" Crescent or the like, probably... The Model 60 is a very nice dovetail-ways jointer...those are older green/white stripe era but I don't recall just when the transitions were. You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of the box on Item 5. I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't original. But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize the heaters... -- |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/16/2018 4:16 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 15:41:26 -0500, dpb wrote: .... There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied starters at the OWWM site http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to be... WOW! I kept a copy of that just for old times sake. While some of the circuits don't have the proper safeties for full power cut off, it did show that circuit that was in the back of my mind. And this diagram should be of great interest to the OP as it shows all the variables. Albeit the new stuff is somewhat different but the circuits should still be applicable if used per local code. .... Indeed, the basic controller circuit logic is unchanged and same for all. I've paid no attention to Code changes since about the early 70s when went from 2-wire to 3 so I can't speak of what else there might be required if somebody were anal-enough to try to meet current Code with 1960's (roughly*) vintage gear. (*) I bought the Model 66 new in late 70s and PM had gone to the Cadillac gold w/ green/red stripe then; the solid green preceded it but this from the pictures looks like is probably the lighter later-vintage green, not the original darker. Somewhere I've got a timeline of PM color schemes but can't seem to put hands on it at the moment. -- |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote:
.... The Model 60 is a very nice dovetail-ways jointer...those are older green/white stripe era but I don't recall just when the transitions were. You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize the heaters... .... And, they're not integral-mount motor; the old PM manual in fact says they only warranted the machine for max 2HP, not 3. Perhaps sometime later for 3P for commercial use there was a 3HP factory version but I'd guess there's at least a decent chance these were modified as someone else noted to be used with a power feeder... http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/655/4938.pdf If you're reasonably close and could snag one of them for $250 to even $500 you've probably got a good buy. Always would be nice to be able to confirm bearings and all, but they're already palletized so there's no chance for that. Even then, bearings can be replaced. -- |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
dpb wrote:
(*) I bought the Model 66 new in late 70s and PM had gone to the Cadillac gold w/ green/red stripe then; the solid green preceded it but this from the pictures looks like is probably the lighter later-vintage green, not the original darker. Somewhere I've got a timeline of PM color schemes but can't seem to put hands on it at the moment. https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...4&d=1418576342 (bottom of page): http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Pai...owermatic.ashx |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote:
.... You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize the heaters... One last note...the real reason I convert to mag starter is not so much for the motor protection, etc., but the safety aspect that won't restart automatically if power goes out, breaker trips or somesuch event like the mechanical will. -- |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
dpb wrote:
You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize the heaters... Please excuse my ignorance. I've seen that word over and over-"heaters". Is that slang for capacitors? |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote:
.... Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors? No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection. When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor so the overcurrent protection has to match. http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/ -- |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
dpb wrote:
On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote: ... Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors? No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection. When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor so the overcurrent protection has to match. http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/ TYVM! If I ever buy one, it will be with great care! Thanks! --Bill |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
|
|||
|
|||
Phase converter
On 6/18/2018 1:49 AM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote: On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote: ... Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors? No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection. When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor so the overcurrent protection has to match. http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/ TYVM!Â* If I ever buy one, it will be with great care!Â* Thanks! --Bill In the picture of the old Rockwell starter at the previously posted link, the pink table on the inside cover is the heater sizing info as a function of motor nameplate current values. There will be such a table for any starter for the manufacturer's specific part. Since they're just fusible links, one of the same current rating will work in any starter as long as it fits mechanically. On the circuit drawing on the same picture, they're the little curlicue in the motor T1 line as for functional depiction. Smaller motors often have them built in as resettable thermal switches; that'd be the red button you may have had to reset on some tool you have. Newer mag starters may also use resettable thermal switches/breakers instead of the fusible links. So, you planning on bidding on one of these? Think you'd be very happy with the machine. -- |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
FS -- 1 to 3 HP phase-a-matic "static phase converter" | Metalworking | |||
Rotary phase converter versus trying to run a VMC straight from single phase | Metalworking | |||
Rotary phase converter versus trying to run a VMC straight from single phase | Metalworking | |||
3 phase 200V, on (nominal 240) rotary phase converter | Metalworking | |||
VFD versus Phase Converter versus 3-phase power | Woodworking |