I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote:


I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good
shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a
single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original
so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining
chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home.

OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote:


I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good
shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a
single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original
so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining
chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home.


I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new
switch assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I
want to actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an
80 or 90 mile drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone
who is insured to pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started
investigating how to get that done. Thanks, Bill

On 6/15/2018 3:52 AM, Bill wrote:
....

I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new switch
assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I want to
actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an 80 or 90 mile
drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone who is insured to
pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started investigating how to get
that done.Â* Thanks, Bill

It'll have 3Ph mag starter; you can wire it to only use the two sides of
the single phase but you'll need to resize the heaters to match the
single phase current of your replacement motor.

I put in a 3PH converter to bring the PM 180 planer and a 5 HP DC but it
was more like 10X (not quite) the $89...it's rotary and capable of 10 HP
continuous, though, not just "phantom" third phase that is likely what
the $89 is from capacitors only

https://www.phoenixphaseconverters.com/Shop/rotary-phase-converters.html

As OFWW says, look at seeing if can find single-phase motor used; for
home use undoubtedly you can get by with less motor than 3 hp, too, and
never know the difference.

On a 3hp, you'll be talking FLA of 16-20 A; you'll almost certainly have
to have #10/30A circuit wiring for 240V operation; it'll be 30A at 120V
which also gets to be somewhat of pain for just home workshop.

--

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

Bill, I blew the inverter on my WoodFast lathe a about a year ago and went looking for a replacement. I finally settled on a direct replacement, via Ebay. But in the process, I noticed Grizzly has several and the price is not all that bad.

Just a thought.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:55:25 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

As for the size, depends on the draw of your motor. Again, check Grizzly.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400
Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to

why such a big jointer

why a jointer at all really

what you making

On 6/15/2018 7:45 AM, dpb wrote:
....

On a 3hp, you'll be talking FLA of 16-20 A; you'll almost certainly have
to have #10/30A circuit wiring for 240V operation; it'll be 30A at 120V
which also gets to be somewhat of pain for just home workshop.
....

BTW, if you do choose to go the converter route, remember the supply
wiring to the converter has to be sized for the current based on the
single phase supply...that has much to do with where you would want to
install it to keep that run short.

--

On 6/15/2018 1:55 AM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like to run this
from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A
(preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to the
task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up to the
task or not.Â* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep
looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

I've studiously avoided any 3-phase machines although I have 4 different
3-horsepower motors in the shop -- it always seemed to be too much effort.
But if you are really interested in a phase converter, I just saw a 7-1/2HP
rotary converter on ebay for $389. I'd really be dubious of a $89 unit's
abilities.

Not affiliated or anything...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-1-2-Hp-St...-/142825491921

On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like to run
this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A
(preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to
the task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up
to the task or not.Â* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and
keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill


3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a
little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor.

A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will
run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something
like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever
run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase
converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see
if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor."

The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable
frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and
3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite
variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog
power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls
on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half
speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart.
If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of
those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase
motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it.

Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on
a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp.

I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a
fudge factor on top of that for safety.

3 X 800 = 2400 watts.
2400 / 220= 10.9 amps.

You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc.
Still with nearly double the fudge factor...

Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway.

Bob La Londe wrote:
On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.Â* I'd like
to run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run
it on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would
be up to the task?Â* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell
whether it would be up to the task or not.Â* I imagine it might
be wiser to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I
would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill


3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps.Â* The reality it may
peak a little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the
motor.

A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you
will run much 3 phase stuff.Â* I don't recall the derating, but
its something like 30-40%.Â* ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP
motor.Â* If all you wil ever run is a motor directly you can
probably go with a cheaper static phase converter.Â* Just remember
that the derating is higher.Â* Its best to see if the MFG says
"This converter will run a X-HP motor."

The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated
variable frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop.Â* When
used 1ph in and 3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but
they give me infinite variable speed control.Â* Most are on CNC
machines where a 0-10VDC analog power signal controls frequency
and rpm.Â* Others I just use the controls on the VFD.Â* With most
half decent 3phase motors you can run from half speed (frequency)
to double speed without them tearing themselves apart. Â*If they
are inverter rated they may handle more.Â* If you have one of
those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3
phase motor controlled by a VFD already.Â* You just didn't know it.

Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just
fine on a 20 amp 220V circuit.Â* Should be absolutely no issue at
all on 30 amp.

I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts.Â* I always figure 800 and then
add a fudge factor on top of that for safety.

3 X 800 = 2400 watts.
2400 / 220= 10.9 amps.

You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire,
etc. Still with nearly double the fudge factor...

Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway.


Thank you Bob, and to everyone else who responded concerning my
question! Your posts are helpful and informative, and will form
a permanent part of my ongoing education regarding related matters.

Bill

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 04:52:22 -0400, Bill wrote:

OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote:


I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to
run this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it
on a 20A (preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be
up to the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether
it would be up to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser
to avoid 3-phase and keep looking, but I thought I would check
with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill

If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good
shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a
single phase motor, for pricing. Check the frame size of the original
so you can get an equivalent 1ph motor and use that as a bargaining
chip. Very few people have 3 ph at home.


I like your idea. Do you know if that transition require a new
switch assembly, or are these designed to be reconfigurable? If I
want to actually "touch and feel" the machine, I'm looking at an
80 or 90 mile drive (each way). Then I would have to pay someone
who is insured to pick it up on a "flat bed truck". I've started
investigating how to get that done. Thanks, Bill

dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on
the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables
that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible.

an electrician or you could rewire the control circuit, but you would
have to change the overload heaters for the 1ph motor and you would
also have to see what the switch was rated for, as the contacts might
be undersized for the motor amperage. The contacts should be inspected
to see what kind of condition they are in, not burnt, not badly pitted
or they would require changing out anyhow. and depending on the age
and brand it might limit what you can get in an electrical supply
store. WW Grainger has an online catalogue that can help if you know
what you are looking for.

Also, if you can tow, then a one way trailer could be used, but you
would have to verify that, and it would be easier to get it in a
trailer than on and off a flat bed.

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:08:38 AM UTC-5, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400, Bill wrote:


I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.
Bill


3HP is a lot for a home shop jointer. An 8" jointer needs only 1HP.

If it were me, and the jointers is really clean and knives in good
shape and everything looks right on the bed, etc. Then I'd check on a
single phase motor, for pricing.

Agreed. Single phase 1hp motors can be had for $150, there abouts. A switch is a nominal cost.

As to the jointer's 3ph motor, sell it on Craigslist, if you can, or for scrap metal - about $5. Might can sell the 3ph switch, alone, also - $25?

Sonny

On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:25:52 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor.* I'd like to run
this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A
(preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to
the task?* I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up
to the task or not.* I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and
keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill


3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a
little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor.

A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will
run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something
like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever
run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase
converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see
if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor."

The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable
frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and
3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite
variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog
power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls
on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half
speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart.
If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of
those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase
motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it.

Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on
a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp.

I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a
fudge factor on top of that for safety.

3 X 800 = 2400 watts.
2400 / 220= 10.9 amps.

You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc.
Still with nearly double the fudge factor...

Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway.

In the US, your 220V is even properly called "240V" (twice 120V). ;-)

3HP on a 240V circuit is no problem at all. My Unisaur has a 3HP
motor and I have it on a 20A circuit (12/2). 30A is overkill.

On 6/16/2018 9:11 AM, wrote:
....

3HP on a 240V circuit is no problem at all. My Unisaur has a 3HP
motor and I have it on a 20A circuit (12/2). 30A is overkill.

They're using good-efficiency motors to get that; an off-the-shelf
inexpensive or particularly an older used may not...I was deliberately
being conservative.

--

On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote:
....

dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on
the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables
that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible.
....

3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp
single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at
has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask.

The question of vintage and availability of heaters is a good one altho
most old models of the usual manufacturers one can find replacement
heaters for or others will cross.

--

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:22:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 9:11 AM, wrote:
...

3HP on a 240V circuit is no problem at all. My Unisaur has a 3HP
motor and I have it on a 20A circuit (12/2). 30A is overkill.

They're using good-efficiency motors to get that; an off-the-shelf
inexpensive or particularly an older used may not...I was deliberately
being conservative.

But 3HP is only ~2400W. A 20A 240V circuit has 4800VA available.
Piece of cake.

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote:
...

dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on
the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables
that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible.
...

3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp
single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at
has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask.


But included on the jointer itself? I wish I could see pictures of it.
He didn't say if it was an 8,10,etc inch jointer

The jointer could have a low voltage SP switch, 24v, 110v, or 220v
depending on the coil in the mag. For some reason in the back of my
mind I keep thinking of a 3p switch with overload heaters, fed by a 3p
knife switch fused or non fused. I have seen a lot of weird things in
my day.

The question of vintage and availability of heaters is a good one altho
most old models of the usual manufacturers one can find replacement
heaters for or others will cross.

On 6/16/2018 10:55 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote:
...

dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on
the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables
that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible.
...

3ph is virtually certain to have magnetic starter; a NEMA 1 is rated 3hp
single phase; I'd be extremely surprised if the jointer he's looking at
has a NEMA 0 although is possible; that would be the question to ask.


But included on the jointer itself? I wish I could see pictures of it.
He didn't say if it was an 8,10,etc inch jointer
....

I would certainly expect a one-unit starter, yes, with just remote push
button switch mounted somewhere on the machine.

Wouldn't ever dream of buying without at least pictures and details,
certainly, but my expectation until shown different would be something
similar to

shorturl.at/rIPX9

which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and
years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of
arrangement is what I would certainly expect.

I bought a dozen or so of these puppies used/reclaimed off old machines
30 yr or so ago and retrofitted them to everything in the shop 240V.
Still have a decent stash...

Many single-phase machines did come with mechanical switches, true, but
it's pretty-much unheard of in the 3ph world.

Now again, if this started out as something else and was retrofitted,
then anything is possible, granted; I was just presuming it's an old OEM
setup from somebody; Crescent, Rockwell, Oliver, ...

--

On 6/16/2018 11:24 AM, dpb wrote:
....

... my expectation until shown different would be something
similar to

shorturl.at/rIPX9

which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and
years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of
arrangement is what I would certainly expect.
....

I just now noticed somebody removed the other two heater blocks from
this one to use it on single phase; there's no need to do that, just
jumper the neutral (L2) and leave L3 empty (or even with the heater
there; there's just no connection so totally immaterial).

--

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 11:28:26 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 11:24 AM, dpb wrote:
...

... my expectation until shown different would be something
similar to

shorturl.at/rIPX9

which is picture of what Rockwell/Delta used for years and years and
years...there will be a mag switch besides, yes, but this kind of
arrangement is what I would certainly expect.
...

I just now noticed somebody removed the other two heater blocks from
this one to use it on single phase; there's no need to do that, just
jumper the neutral (L2) and leave L3 empty (or even with the heater
there; there's just no connection so totally immaterial).

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it.

On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote:
....

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it.

I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just

shorturl.at/rIPX9

--

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote:
...

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it.

I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just

shorturl.at/rIPX9

That worked when I did a cut n paste.

Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top
of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the
heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the
heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit.

However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough
for clarification there.

On 6/16/2018 2:01 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote:
...

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it.

I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just

shorturl.at/rIPX9

That worked when I did a cut n paste.

Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top
of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the
heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the
heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit.

However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough
for clarification there.

You're right; that's a cobbed-up hookup fer sure...at the smaller
pitchures over on the RHS there's a wiring diagram for a single-phase
version but not a picture of the guts of one.

There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied
starters at the OWWM site
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing
superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to
be...

I'll try to go take a picture or two here; I have one in PM gold, even
-- when I bought the Model 66 from factory in McMinnville, I ordered
it w/o electrics to save a few bucks since I had already gotten the
stash figured might as well use one of them instead of giving Powermatic
another $50 or whatever it was...seemed like a lot of money then!

--

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 15:41:26 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 2:01 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:29:06 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote:
...

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it.

I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just

shorturl.at/rIPX9

That worked when I did a cut n paste.

Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top
of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the
heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the
heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit.

However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough
for clarification there.

You're right; that's a cobbed-up hookup fer sure...at the smaller
pitchures over on the RHS there's a wiring diagram for a single-phase
version but not a picture of the guts of one.

There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied
starters at the OWWM site
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing
superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to
be...

WOW! I kept a copy of that just for old times sake. While some of the
circuits don't have the proper safeties for full power cut off, it did
show that circuit that was in the back of my mind. And this diagram
should be of great interest to the OP as it shows all the variables.
Albeit the new stuff is somewhat different but the circuits should
still be applicable if used per local code.


I'll try to go take a picture or two here; I have one in PM gold, even
-- when I bought the Model 66 from factory in McMinnville, I ordered
it w/o electrics to save a few bucks since I had already gotten the
stash figured might as well use one of them instead of giving Powermatic
another $50 or whatever it was...seemed like a lot of money then!

OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 09:30:01 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 6/15/2018 11:57 PM, OFWW wrote:
...

dpb gave some great advice. I don't know what type of a switch is on
the jointer so it would be hard to say, there are so many variables
that I would ask the guy first what he has and a picture if possible.

Look at Item #5 on the list. Item #6 looks like the switch has
been modified. Those are the only differences I can see from
the pics.

http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21941

BTW, the people that run these auctions aren't good at answering
questions. Last time I went to look at a machine, the electric
had been turned off and they couldn't even turn it on.

Bill

Often times, those furniture companies use auto feeders with those tools, hence the 3hp motors to handle the feed rate. A hobby shop only needs 1.5hp to 2hp for hand feeding stock. My 8" jointer has a 1.5hp, 3450 rpm, single phase, 110V, induction motor. It has never bogged down, in the slightest.

Baldor, Leeson, Marathon are expensive, as are Powermatics replacement motors.

Grizzly has a 1hp motor for $200. Their 2hp motor is $225 - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...10V-220V/G2535
Would need to check the mounting plate.

A sale is coming soon in Peru, IN. The listings aren't shown, yet. The announcement-list mentions jointers (plural) and maintenance equipment & supplies ....might there be some motors? Isn't Peru much closer to you? Might be worth the wait-n-see what's offered, there.
http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21935

Sonny

Sonny wrote:

Often times, those furniture companies use auto feeders with those tools, hence the 3hp motors to handle the feed rate. A hobby shop only needs 1.5hp to 2hp for hand feeding stock. My 8" jointer has a 1.5hp, 3450 rpm, single phase, 110V, induction motor. It has never bogged down, in the slightest.

Baldor, Leeson, Marathon are expensive, as are Powermatics replacement motors.

Grizzly has a 1hp motor for $200. Their 2hp motor is $225 - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...10V-220V/G2535
Would need to check the mounting plate.

A sale is coming soon in Peru, IN. The listings aren't shown, yet. The announcement-list mentions jointers (plural) and maintenance equipment & supplies ....might there be some motors? Isn't Peru much closer to you? Might be worth the wait-n-see what's offered, there.
http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21935

Sonny


Sonny, Thanks for the heads up. Peru is about 90 miles from
Indianapolis too, closer to Fort Wayne. I've spent most of my
free time this month on spring cleanup. A few more details and
I'll get to "shop cleanup". 94-degrees here today.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0400
Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to

why such a big jointer

8-inch is a typical size. Sonny pointed out it would be fine with
a 1 or 2 hp motor, if hand fed.



what you making

I was thinking of adding some capitals to my posts.

Bill

On 6/16/2018 7:07 PM, Bill wrote:
....

Look at Item #5 on the list. Item #6 looks like the switch has been
modified.Â*Â* Those are the only differences I can see from the pics.

http://www.irsauctions.com/index_lot...tails&id=21941
....

For something that small presuming you could win at a few hundred $,
just plan on trashing the motor and use what of the electrics you can;
I'd bid on the cheaper one probably because folks will see the switch
has been moved and figure something's wrong with it; even if it doesn't
work replacements are easy and not expensive.

The base machines look in pretty good shape; that's all one really needs.

I thought we were talking something serious like a 12" Crescent or the
like, probably...

The Model 60 is a very nice dovetail-ways jointer...those are older
green/white stripe era but I don't recall just when the transitions were.

You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5
shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of
the box on Item 5. I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't
original. But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for
single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize
the heaters...

--

On 6/16/2018 4:16 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 15:41:26 -0500, dpb wrote:
....

There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied
starters at the OWWM site
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1141/2805.pdf with text/drawing
superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to
be...

WOW! I kept a copy of that just for old times sake. While some of the
circuits don't have the proper safeties for full power cut off, it did
show that circuit that was in the back of my mind. And this diagram
should be of great interest to the OP as it shows all the variables.
Albeit the new stuff is somewhat different but the circuits should
still be applicable if used per local code.

....

Indeed, the basic controller circuit logic is unchanged and same for
all. I've paid no attention to Code changes since about the early 70s
when went from 2-wire to 3 so I can't speak of what else there might be
required if somebody were anal-enough to try to meet current Code with
1960's (roughly*) vintage gear.

(*) I bought the Model 66 new in late 70s and PM had gone to the
Cadillac gold w/ green/red stripe then; the solid green preceded it but
this from the pictures looks like is probably the lighter later-vintage
green, not the original darker. Somewhere I've got a timeline of PM
color schemes but can't seem to put hands on it at the moment.

--

On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote:
....

The Model 60 is a very nice dovetail-ways jointer...those are older
green/white stripe era but I don't recall just when the transitions were.

You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5
shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of
the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't
original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for
single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize
the heaters...
....

And, they're not integral-mount motor; the old PM manual in fact says
they only warranted the machine for max 2HP, not 3. Perhaps sometime
later for 3P for commercial use there was a 3HP factory version but I'd
guess there's at least a decent chance these were modified as someone
else noted to be used with a power feeder...

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/655/4938.pdf

If you're reasonably close and could snag one of them for $250 to even
$500 you've probably got a good buy. Always would be nice to be able to
confirm bearings and all, but they're already palletized so there's no
chance for that. Even then, bearings can be replaced.

--

dpb wrote:

(*) I bought the Model 66 new in late 70s and PM had gone to the
Cadillac gold w/ green/red stripe then; the solid green preceded it but
this from the pictures looks like is probably the lighter later-vintage
green, not the original darker. Somewhere I've got a timeline of PM
color schemes but can't seem to put hands on it at the moment.

https://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...4&d=1418576342
(bottom of page):
http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/Pai...owermatic.ashx

On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote:
....

You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5
shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of
the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't
original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for
single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize
the heaters...

One last note...the real reason I convert to mag starter is not so much
for the motor protection, etc., but the safety aspect that won't restart
automatically if power goes out, breaker trips or somesuch event like
the mechanical will.

--

On 6/16/2018 7:11 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:25:52 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run
this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A
(preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to
the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would
be up
to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and
keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill


3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a
little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor.

A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will
run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something
like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever
run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase
converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see
if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor."

The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable
frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and
3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite
variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog
power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls
on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half
speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart.
If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of
those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase
motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it.

Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on
a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp.

I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a
fudge factor on top of that for safety.

3 X 800 = 2400 watts.
2400 / 220= 10.9 amps.

You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc.
Still with nearly double the fudge factor...

Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway.

In the US, your 220V is even properly called "240V" (twice 120V).


In the US your 240V is anywhere from about 225 to 245 based on actually
sticking a meter on a bus bar once or twice. Mostly I've seen 232 to
about 236. Not counting star which tends to be fairly close to 208, but
if you had 208 from a star transformer configuration you would already
have 3 phase.

In my shop I have 236 on one leg and 234 on the other most of the time.
I have not left my recording meter hooked up as I have not seen the kind
of issues that would indicate I need to.

The gradual shift from 220 to 240 is in part due to the fact that power
companies can transmit net total power more efficiently over lighter
wire at higher voltages. Amps times volts equals total power (watts)

Getting back to the actual issue since I backed it all up with numbers
already...20 amp should be fine, but it pays to have a larger fudge
factor when using a phase converter as there is a bit of loss there.
Particularly with a rotary where you are literally turning a larger
motor to generate 3 phase.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:42:32 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:


On 6/16/2018 7:11 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:25:52 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote:

I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run
this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A
(preferably) or 30A circuit?

Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to
the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would
be up
to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and
keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first.

Thanks!
Bill


3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a
little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor.

A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will
run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something
like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever
run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase
converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see
if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor."

The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable
frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and
3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite
variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog
power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls
on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half
speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart.
If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of
those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase
motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it.

Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on
a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp.

I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a
fudge factor on top of that for safety.

3 X 800 = 2400 watts.
2400 / 220= 10.9 amps.

You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc.
Still with nearly double the fudge factor...

Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway.

In the US, your 220V is even properly called "240V" (twice 120V).


In the US your 240V is anywhere from about 225 to 245 based on actually
sticking a meter on a bus bar once or twice. Mostly I've seen 232 to
about 236.

OK. Is the mains voltage precise anywhere in the world? The US
specification is +/- 5% (228V to 152V), at the source (i.e. at the
transformer). Losses in the wiring will put it on the low side of
those numbers.

Not counting star which tends to be fairly close to 208, but
if you had 208 from a star transformer configuration you would already
have 3 phase.

Different kettle of apples. That's not "204V" and rarely, if ever,
found in residences.

In my shop I have 236 on one leg and 234 on the other most of the time.
I have not left my recording meter hooked up as I have not seen the kind
of issues that would indicate I need to.

Sure, you have an load imbalance. Not surprising but hardly relevant.

The gradual shift from 220 to 240 is in part due to the fact that power
companies can transmit net total power more efficiently over lighter
wire at higher voltages. Amps times volts equals total power (watts)

OK. But here we are.

Getting back to the actual issue since I backed it all up with numbers
already...20 amp should be fine, but it pays to have a larger fudge
factor when using a phase converter as there is a bit of loss there.
Particularly with a rotary where you are literally turning a larger
motor to generate 3 phase.

Agreed. 20A single phase should be good for 5HP but I prefer a bit
more overkill also. I usually do a home-run from the tools back to
the panel, unless I know that two outlets can never be used at the
same time. ...and with 240V circuits, usually then, too.

dpb wrote:

You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions;
Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows
the corner of the box on Item 5.Â* I'd guess both of those have
been added and aren't original.Â* But, looks like you'll have all
the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the
motor and rewire and resize the heaters...



Please excuse my ignorance. I've seen that word over and
over-"heaters". Is that slang for capacitors?

On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote:
....


Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and
over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors?

No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection.

When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw will
be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor so the
overcurrent protection has to match.

http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp
https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/

--

dpb wrote:
On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote:
...


Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and
over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors?

No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection.

When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current
draw will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same
size motor so the overcurrent protection has to match.

http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp
https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/


TYVM! If I ever buy one, it will be with great care! Thanks!
--Bill

On 6/18/2018 1:49 AM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote:
...


Please excuse my ignorance.Â* I've seen that word over and
over-"heaters".Â* Is that slang for capacitors?

No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection.

When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw
will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor
so the overcurrent protection has to match.

http://www.southlandelectrical.com/FurnasHeaterChart.asp
https://motorsandcontrol.com/siemens-furnas-e54-bi-metal-heater-element-for-siemens-furnas-overload/


TYVM!Â* If I ever buy one, it will be with great care!Â* Thanks! --Bill

In the picture of the old Rockwell starter at the previously posted
link, the pink table on the inside cover is the heater sizing info as a
function of motor nameplate current values. There will be such a table
for any starter for the manufacturer's specific part. Since they're
just fusible links, one of the same current rating will work in any
starter as long as it fits mechanically.

On the circuit drawing on the same picture, they're the little curlicue
in the motor T1 line as for functional depiction.

Smaller motors often have them built in as resettable thermal switches;
that'd be the red button you may have had to reset on some tool you have.

Newer mag starters may also use resettable thermal switches/breakers
instead of the fusible links.

So, you planning on bidding on one of these? Think you'd be very happy
with the machine.

--