On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 21:39:52 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2011 7:58 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:51:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
...

- If a RAS ever *does* kick back, the wood is thrown *away* from the operator.

Not on a crosscut!
...

Horse pucky!

How can it be anything else unless one is standing behind the saw
instead at the operator location?

Simple. When a crosscut kicks the wood is *not* thrown back, away from the
operator, rather the carriage is propelled *towards* the operator.

The blade is rotating away and the
arm, motor and blade guard (as well as the kickback pawls--you _are_
using and have them set properly aren't you--I knew you were) prevent an
material from possibly going up and over and thereby towards the operator.

Kickback pawls on a crosscut?

If anything, the carriage may try to accelerate, but holding a firm hold
on it is sufficient.

If you're lucky and nothing else goes wrong.

I've used the RAS for 30 years+ and never had even a hint of such a
thing as kickback of material, riding over a board or the other examples
cited.

That often happens after a kickback.

I can only infer that most of these are very lightweight, small machines
that aren't rigid enough to prevent such things. Those might, indeed,
as Robotoy says, be worthy candidates for abolishing and since they have
little if any more capacity crosscut wise than the sliding miter saw if
that's all one is doing with one then may as well use them instead since
they now exist (as another said, that's a fairly recent development).

IMO a RAS should be nothing less than the 12"
DeWalt/Rockwell=Delta/Original Saw or similar; the little 10" things
from Sears are just too lightly built. I've the 16" Rockwell-Delta and
it's used extensively; primarily for roughing out large stock to length
but it rips much more conveniently than the TS as well for sizable
pieces; it's not as handy for taking a smidge off the edge.

But they are. ...and they are what we were discussing.

...

On 8/7/11 10:06 PM, Max wrote:


You have mentioned the real deal killer for a RAS. Alignment. There are
so many things that have to be just right for a reasonable amount of
accuracy. It takes way too long to get it "just right".

Max


I set mine up years ago, have made more cuts than I can remember and
it's still dead on.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article , "m II" wrote:

Never used a RAS but wonder how they compare with a good sliding miter saw.
I couldn't live without one, even a cheap one.
Advantages or disadvantages?

There are at least two things you can do with a RAS that you can't do with a
SCMS:

Most radial arm saws allow the saw carriage to be turned at 90 degrees to the
rails, and locked in place, so you can make rip cuts.

Radial arm saws also have long enough arbors to accomodate a dado set.

In article , Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:51 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

Why should it? I've never understood the antipathy that many guys here have
toward radial arm saws. One person used to call them "radical harm saws" and I
truly don't understand why. It's just a case of using the right tool for the
right job. A radial arm saw is *not* the right tool for ripping (not the best
one, anyway), but IMHO it's safer than a table saw for crosscuts:

Well you may have answered your own question there Doug. While most
every one will agree that the RAS is not comforting to use in the rip
application, it is indeed built and intended to be used to rip material.

True enough, but it's also true that the primary purpose of a RAS is
crosscuts, not ripping. I haven't ripped even one board on my RAS since I
bought my first TS.

So that is probably why most every one would prefer to never use one.

I can easily understand preferring to never use one for rip cuts if a TS is
available. Never using one for crosscuts is a bit harder for me to understand:
that's what it was designed to do.

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:51:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article m, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote:

RAS should be O U T L A W E D ! !
---------------------------------------
You want an argument, change the subject.

Cerritos college has ONE (1) RAS in the entire facility.

It's use is restricted to cross cutting rough stock to length.

Even that cut gives me the "willies"

Why should it? I've never understood the antipathy that many guys here have
toward radial arm saws. One person used to call them "radical harm saws" and I

truly don't understand why. It's just a case of using the right tool for the
right job. A radial arm saw is *not* the right tool for ripping (not the best
one, anyway), but IMHO it's safer than a table saw for crosscuts:

- The stock stays put; you can even clamp it to the table if you want. There's
*zero* possibility that a long board can torque crooked, bind, and kick back.

I *did* have a board (cedar, in fact) bind and "kick back" (actually propelled
the carriage toward me). It eventually grabbed hold of the saw blade and
stopped it dead. Then I changed my pants.

Apparently you didn't have it clamped to the table.

- Since the stock doesn't move, there's no kickback danger posed by cutting
unsurfaced lumber that might rock or twist: shim it, clamp it, cut it.

- If a RAS ever *does* kick back, the wood is thrown *away* from the operator.

Not on a crosscut!

Yes, on a crosscut -- the wood's going to go the same direction the teeth are
moving, and that is indeed away from the operator.

Perhaps you meant to say "not on a rip cut"?

- The saw carriage runs on *rails*. Don't put your hand in line with the
rails, and it's completely impossible to be hit by the blade.

Thanx!
I forgot about the head turning 90 and using the RAS like an upside down
shaper table.
This must be what all the "jumping the board" an "ripping" discussion is all
about.

-------------------
"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
There are at least two things you can do with a RAS that you can't do with a
SCMS:

Most radial arm saws allow the saw carriage to be turned at 90 degrees to
the
rails, and locked in place, so you can make rip cuts.

Radial arm saws also have long enough arbors to accomodate a dado set.


------------------
In article , "m II"
wrote:
Never used a RAS but wonder how they compare with a good sliding miter
saw.
I couldn't live without one, even a cheap one.
Advantages or disadvantages?

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 21:39:52 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2011 7:58 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:51:46 GMT, (Doug
Miller)
wrote:
...

- If a RAS ever *does* kick back, the wood is thrown *away* from the
operator.

Not on a crosscut!
...

Horse pucky!

How can it be anything else unless one is standing behind the saw
instead at the operator location?

Simple. When a crosscut kicks the wood is *not* thrown back, away from the
operator, rather the carriage is propelled *towards* the operator.

Yes, that *can* happen, if the operator isn't feeding the carriage properly.

But so what? Even if it does, you can't be hurt unless you've done something
blindingly stupid like operating the saw without the blade guard, or putting
your other hand in line with the cut.

On 8/7/2011 11:10 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/7/2011 10:06 PM, Max wrote:
...

You have mentioned the real deal killer for a RAS. Alignment. There are
so many things that have to be just right for a reasonable amount of
accuracy. It takes way too long to get it "just right".
...

I've never had such issues; then again, I have one of the old large
(16") Rockwell-Delta's not the little home-store Sears/DeWalt/etc.

--

Typically every new RAS right out of the box has the alignment issue.
You have to assemble at least the table and that has to be done
perfectly. So at least once the RAS has all those extra alignment
settinsg. Then add in humidity, temperature changes and the table/fence
needs to be readjusted. If you really use the RAS a lot the table has
to be replaced and you start the alignment process again.

Now, if you have an industrial sized saw in good condition the
adjustments are probably greatly reduced as would be expected but
because of the inherent characteristics of the RAS the more commonly
found ones are more trouble.

I believe that the biggest issue with all RAS's regardless of size is
the wood table which moves and changes shape.

Consider also that if you most often cut a like sized material on the
16" RAS's as you do with a 10" RAS. If you mostly cut 3/4" material
with a 10" RAS the equivalent on a 16" RAS would probably be 1-1/4"",
assuming the capacity on a 10" saw is 3" and the capacity on a 16" is
5". When always using equivalent thickness materials I am sure the
alignment and operation issues become more equal. The typical 10 RAS
would probably perform much better and more smoothly if it normally cut
material less the 1/2" thick.

Now I am not saying that I would never use a RAS again but I would
absolutely trust the results from my cabinet saw over any RAS whether it
be cross cutting or ripping with few exceptions such as squaring the end
of a long board or cutting dados across long boards.

This is my view after having both machines and build lots of furniture
with both. I still view the TS a more safe to operate machine over the
RAS even though I have never been injured with a RAS but have been with
a TS.

On 8/7/2011 11:22 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/7/11 10:06 PM, Max wrote:


You have mentioned the real deal killer for a RAS. Alignment. There are
so many things that have to be just right for a reasonable amount of
accuracy. It takes way too long to get it "just right".

Max


I set mine up years ago, have made more cuts than I can remember and
it's still dead on.

Agreed...it's not an issue that Leon makes it to be ime. (After all,
we're working wood here, not machining precision metal...)

--

On 8/7/2011 11:20 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
....

If anything, the carriage may try to accelerate, but holding a firm hold
on it is sufficient.

If you're lucky and nothing else goes wrong.

I'm older than I think...it's actually been 40+ years and _never_ had
any of this "anything else" to go wrong yet. I really don't know what
there is _to_ go wrong.

I've used the RAS for 30 years+ and never had even a hint of such a
thing as kickback of material, riding over a board or the other examples
cited.

That often happens after a kickback.

Exceptin' it just isn't an issue...

--

On 8/8/2011 6:52 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:51 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

Why should it? I've never understood the antipathy that many guys here have
toward radial arm saws. One person used to call them "radical harm saws" and I
truly don't understand why. It's just a case of using the right tool for the
right job. A radial arm saw is *not* the right tool for ripping (not the best
one, anyway), but IMHO it's safer than a table saw for crosscuts:

Well you may have answered your own question there Doug. While most
every one will agree that the RAS is not comforting to use in the rip
application, it is indeed built and intended to be used to rip material.

True enough, but it's also true that the primary purpose of a RAS is
crosscuts, not ripping. I haven't ripped even one board on my RAS since I
bought my first TS.

I believe that with access to a TS that cross cutting becoming the
primary function of a RAS certainly is a true statement. When I bought
my TS however I stopped ripping AND cross cutting with my RAS. ;~) Two
years later I gained a log of room after never using and selling the RAS
and never looked back although I did add add a 12" CMS about 10 years
later. And true to form when I upgraded my TS to a cabinet saw 12 years
ago the CMS became a dust collector which I only use on the occasional
job site. It still sets at the old house that we sold to our son in
October.


So that is probably why most every one would prefer to never use one.

I can easily understand preferring to never use one for rip cuts if a TS is
available. Never using one for crosscuts is a bit harder for me to understand:
that's what it was designed to do.

The key elements that I added to my cabinet saw immediately were a left
and right Dubby jig, "infinite angle, 90-45 degree, cutting sleds". If
you ever want to be able to accurately cut repeated length miters on
panels or boards on your TS you might want to keep them in mind,
especially if you want to make more room by eliminating a RAS. ;~) It
is a hard decision to make, getting rid of a large piece of equipment,
but if you find yourself only using the RAS for the occasional cross cut....

Not trying in any to away you from using your RAS, just letting you know
that there are alternative ways to repeatedly do very accurate multi
angle and compound angle cross cuts on a TS.

On 8/8/2011 8:00 AM, dpb wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:22 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/7/11 10:06 PM, Max wrote:


You have mentioned the real deal killer for a RAS. Alignment. There are
so many things that have to be just right for a reasonable amount of
accuracy. It takes way too long to get it "just right".

Max


I set mine up years ago, have made more cuts than I can remember and
it's still dead on.

Agreed...it's not an issue that Leon makes it to be ime. (After all,
we're working wood here, not machining precision metal...)

--


Well that is certainly true but once you start to expect more precision
from your equipment your projects reflect that. Keep in mind that I
have seriousely been building furniture since the late 70's, have owned
both the RAS and TS and find that set up and accuracy to be simpler and
better on a cabinet saw. If your are satisfied with the results you get
from your RAS that is great. I eventually out grew the limitations of
my RAS, both in ripping and in cross cutting and added a TS for the
first time in 1983. I never used my RAS again and sold it a few years
later.

On 8/8/2011 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:

Well that is certainly true but once you start to expect more precision
from your equipment your projects reflect that. Keep in mind that I
have seriousely been building furniture since the late 70's, have owned
both the RAS and TS and find that set up and accuracy to be simpler and
better on a cabinet saw. If your are satisfied with the results you get
from your RAS that is great. I eventually out grew the limitations of
my RAS, both in ripping and in cross cutting and added a TS for the
first time in 1983. I never used my RAS again and sold it a few years
later.

When I first owned a RAS there was no such thing as a SCMS. I used the
RAS to build 3 recording studios. The last studio I built in the early
nineties, the RAS, although setup onsite as usual, hardly got used as I
had a miter saw by then, and the RAS had become what I considered a
liability issue ... had a couple of guys helping me that I was sure
would eventually kill themselves with the damn thing.

I certainly haven't missed owning one. That's not to say that if I had
beaucoup room and an unlimited tool budget I wouldn't have another one,
along with a couple of more table saws, for dedicated use. First things,
first.

In my dreams ....

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
says...

In article m,
"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:

[snipped all be the important part.LOL]

I AM a safety freak.



There you have it. You HAVE to be 110% awake, NO routine cuts, perfect
set-up and materials...

For a super careful, vigilant user, RAS's offer only a small set of
advantages that simple aren't worth the danger.

What's "the danger"?

On a table saw you move your fingers into the blade.

On an RAS you move the blade into your fingers.

Either way you have no fingers.

How is one "more dangerous" than the other?

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 8/8/2011 8:00 AM, dpb wrote:
On 8/7/2011 11:22 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/7/11 10:06 PM, Max wrote:


You have mentioned the real deal killer for a RAS. Alignment. There are
so many things that have to be just right for a reasonable amount of
accuracy. It takes way too long to get it "just right".

Max


I set mine up years ago, have made more cuts than I can remember and
it's still dead on.

Agreed...it's not an issue that Leon makes it to be ime. (After all,
we're working wood here, not machining precision metal...)

--


Well that is certainly true but once you start to expect more precision
from your equipment your projects reflect that. Keep in mind that I
have seriousely been building furniture since the late 70's, have owned
both the RAS and TS and find that set up and accuracy to be simpler and
better on a cabinet saw. If your are satisfied with the results you get
from your RAS that is great. I eventually out grew the limitations of
my RAS, both in ripping and in cross cutting and added a TS for the
first time in 1983. I never used my RAS again and sold it a few years
later.

While I don't have your amount of experience, my own is pretty much the
same.

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.

On 8/8/2011 9:17 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/8/2011 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:

Well that is certainly true but once you start to expect more precision
from your equipment your projects reflect that. Keep in mind that I
have seriousely been building furniture since the late 70's, have owned
both the RAS and TS and find that set up and accuracy to be simpler and
better on a cabinet saw. If your are satisfied with the results you get
from your RAS that is great. I eventually out grew the limitations of
my RAS, both in ripping and in cross cutting and added a TS for the
first time in 1983. I never used my RAS again and sold it a few years
later.
....

Well, I have a PM66 TS as well, but I'd not (willingly) give up the RAS,
either...

I've been building since in the mid-60s; a significant period of custom
work both furniture and architectural...nobody yet complained about a
lack of results...

--

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 8/8/2011 6:52 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:
On 8/7/2011 2:51 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

Why should it? I've never understood the antipathy that many guys here have
toward radial arm saws. One person used to call them "radical harm saws" and I
truly don't understand why. It's just a case of using the right tool for the
right job. A radial arm saw is *not* the right tool for ripping (not the best
one, anyway), but IMHO it's safer than a table saw for crosscuts:

Well you may have answered your own question there Doug. While most
every one will agree that the RAS is not comforting to use in the rip
application, it is indeed built and intended to be used to rip material.

True enough, but it's also true that the primary purpose of a RAS is
crosscuts, not ripping. I haven't ripped even one board on my RAS since I
bought my first TS.

I believe that with access to a TS that cross cutting becoming the
primary function of a RAS certainly is a true statement. When I bought
my TS however I stopped ripping AND cross cutting with my RAS. ;~) Two
years later I gained a log of room after never using and selling the RAS
and never looked back although I did add add a 12" CMS about 10 years
later. And true to form when I upgraded my TS to a cabinet saw 12 years
ago the CMS became a dust collector which I only use on the occasional
job site. It still sets at the old house that we sold to our son in
October.


So that is probably why most every one would prefer to never use one.

I can easily understand preferring to never use one for rip cuts if a TS is
available. Never using one for crosscuts is a bit harder for me to understand:
that's what it was designed to do.

The key elements that I added to my cabinet saw immediately were a left
and right Dubby jig, "infinite angle, 90-45 degree, cutting sleds".

Oh, great, another tool to buy. Thanks Leon. Now to scrape up a spare
three hundred bucks . . .

If
you ever want to be able to accurately cut repeated length miters on
panels or boards on your TS you might want to keep them in mind,
especially if you want to make more room by eliminating a RAS. ;~) It
is a hard decision to make, getting rid of a large piece of equipment,
but if you find yourself only using the RAS for the occasional cross cut....

Not trying in any to away you from using your RAS, just letting you know
that there are alternative ways to repeatedly do very accurate multi
angle and compound angle cross cuts on a TS.

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
....

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
....

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

--

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Max

In article , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".

Doug Miller wrote:
My old faithful corded circular saw finally bit the dust yesterday.
Something went Pop! and it stopped running. Disassembly today shows
half a dozen segments missing from the commutator; the critical parts
are no longer available (after 15+ years, that's no surprise), so
it's time to buy a new one.

My uses are, I think, pretty typical: framing, building decks,
cutting sheet goods to manageable size.

I'm looking for something that will last a good long time. The one
that
died is only the second one I've ever owned; the first one lasted
nearly 20 years, and I'm hoping for similar durability. The budget is
large enough to include Bosch, Makita, or Milwaukee, but not Festool.

I'm looking for general recommendations in two areas:
a) corded vs. cordless -- my experiences with cordless circular saws
have not been positive, but they've been cheap saws, and I'm willing
to be persuaded that cordless circular saws that won't drain a
battery in five seconds do actually exist; and
b) left blade vs. right blade. Every circular saw that I've ever used
has had the blade on the right. Advertising for left-blade saws
includes phrases like "gives users the clearest line of sight for
easy, accurate cutting" but I just don't see how it's really any
different. I'm inclined to get a right-blade saw simply because
that's what I'm used to, but if there truly are advantages to having
the blade on the left, I'd be much obliged if someone would explain
them to me. In case it makes a difference to the recommendation, I'm
right-handed.

I'm also looking for recommendations of specific brands and/or models
both to seek out, and to avoid. I intend to avoid tools made in China
if at all possible.

TIA... Thanks may also be expressed tangibly, in the form of a cold
homebrew or three, next time you pass through Indianapolis.

-----------

Judging from the replies, everybody pretty much likes what they have.

Therefore, one conclusion is get the saw that has the most attractive paint
job - you'll get used to it.

On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
....

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either there's something wrong in a shop that one would
get hit so hard and often or it's simply too flimsy if a casual bump can
knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several various Craftsmans of similar lightweight
construction; them I'll grant aren't much of a tool as far as sturdiness
goes altho I used the one Dad had for the kitchen cabinets rather than
drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in the POS
class, though, simply because it was so lightweight. It was also
seriously under-powered for anything other than softwoods or at most
4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt weighed
100.

--

On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and I never adjust it
away from that position. I could see how it could get knocked out of adjustment if got a
good wack, and I do check it periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord,
so I'm happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace it, but I'm
slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to seek one out. If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 8/8/2011 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


Not all of them are crap, if you have one built like a tank and
typically don't use it to its potential on a daily basis it is going to
hold up.

Concerning the home center and or lumber yard monsters, if they were any
less of a machine they would not hold up given the amount of idiot
people using it. And FWIW I would never want to use the cut produced by
one of those saws, every one I have seen has been used simply to cut
lumber to rough length and square is not a goal nor is it achieved.

On 08/08/2011 03:32 PM, Leon wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


Not all of them are crap, if you have one built like a tank and typically don't use it to
its potential on a daily basis it is going to hold up.

Concerning the home center and or lumber yard monsters, if they were any less of a machine
they would not hold up given the amount of idiot people using it. And FWIW I would never
want to use the cut produced by one of those saws, every one I have seen has been used
simply to cut lumber to rough length and square is not a goal nor is it achieved.

True; those saws are not typically set up for accuracy and the abuse they take is not
conducive to accurate cuts, but I don't think such cuts are impossible. I'm sure with the
proper care and feeding you could get near perfect results out of those saws.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 8/8/2011 1:43 PM, Max wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote


While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Max



Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table. Clamping is not really
going to be effective but having some one else or something to support
the board would be needed. You have a 2.5 to 1 leverage ratio working
against you. Not saying that you cannot do it, it is just not as
straight forward as making a cut when the wood is not going to be
working against you.

That is not going to be as big of a problem problem on a 50" capacity TS
with a closer 1/1 leverage ratio. I squared 7, 8' 1x8 today with a
miter gauge and did not give it a second thought.

Now if your RAS has a long table on one or both both sides you have over
come one of the unique problems.

On 8/8/2011 3:46 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 03:32 PM, Leon wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I
just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


Not all of them are crap, if you have one built like a tank and
typically don't use it to
its potential on a daily basis it is going to hold up.

Concerning the home center and or lumber yard monsters, if they were
any less of a machine
they would not hold up given the amount of idiot people using it. And
FWIW I would never
want to use the cut produced by one of those saws, every one I have
seen has been used
simply to cut lumber to rough length and square is not a goal nor is
it achieved.

True; those saws are not typically set up for accuracy and the abuse
they take is not conducive to accurate cuts, but I don't think such cuts
are impossible. I'm sure with the proper care and feeding you could get
near perfect results out of those saws.



Absolutely, as with most any piece of equipment.

In article m,
"Max" wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Max

The usefulness of a RAS does not negate the fact that is proportionally
easier to make a serious screw up than with any other power tool.
A Big ol' beefy 12" Delta, from industrial yore, is a mighty fine piece
of gear which will do things other devices won't. BUT, you best be
really careful, be very alert, and make sure there's no hidden cuppage
or twistage (suck on those two words, spelchucker) in your stock... or a
know even.
Now add the instability of the sheetmetal, stamped pieces of **** that
Craftsman put out and you have amplified the danger by a large
percentage. A sloppy arm with a wonky motor with crap bearings and a
whirling, toothed wheel of death hanging, spinning in mid air over a
work surface is just NOT my idea of a device that makes me all
comfy-womfy in terms of safety.

BTW, all you proponents of the RAS... If you ever need to cut an end off
a 12' x 1x6.. do what I do. A Swanson aluminum Speedsquare and a
circular saw. I can get a pretty nice cut anywhere any time without
first have to clean all the crap off the RAS table and move countless
objects d'art so I can manoeuvre a hunk of lumber, through a shop just
to do that simple operation on a very dangerous piece of crap.

In article ,
Steve Turner wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us believe, I'd
like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs
away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I guess
somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous 'as is'.
They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and 'safety-ise' the
bejeezus out of that RAS.

"Robatoy" wrote:
BTW, all you proponents of the RAS... If you ever need to cut an end
off
a 12' x 1x6.. do what I do. A Swanson aluminum Speedsquare and a
circular saw.
-----------------------------
Even works well with an 18VDC panel saw.

Lew

In article m,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

In article om,
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote:
BTW, all you proponents of the RAS... If you ever need to cut an end
off
a 12' x 1x6.. do what I do. A Swanson aluminum Speedsquare and a
circular saw.
-----------------------------
Even works well with an 18VDC panel saw.

Lew

I am still quite fond of my Skil worm drive....although getting a tad
heavier than I remember.

In article ocal,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article m,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

Brilliant idea!!

On 8/8/11 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


I was just using mine and even though the settings are still dead on,
it's just such a PITA to change the angles of the cuts. You have raise
the height to change the angle (because of how the blade cuts into the
table in order to make a through cut, then lower it back down.
Every time you want to change either angle.

That's a big reason most guys use it only for crosscuts.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/8/2011 3:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/8/11 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I
just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


I was just using mine and even though the settings are still dead on,
it's just such a PITA to change the angles of the cuts. You have raise
the height to change the angle (because of how the blade cuts into the
table in order to make a through cut, then lower it back down.
Every time you want to change either angle.

That's a big reason most guys use it only for crosscuts.


You should use a sacrificial table in front of the fence, usually of
1/4" ply. This eliminates cutting into the main table. It also lets
you adjust the saw for miter cuts without raising or lowering the arm by
returning the motor/blade behind the fence, adjusting the miter and them
making the miter cut while only cutting into the sacrificial table. You
do have to raise/lower the arm for bevel cuts though.

I've never had to replace the main table on my RAS as it has never been
touched by a blade. Fences OTOH are a disposable item. I make mine out
of poplar. I use baltic birch for the sacricial table and they usually
last 4-5 years.

I wrote:

Even works well with an 18VDC panel saw.
-----------------------------
"Robatoy" wrote:

I am still quite fond of my Skil worm drive....although getting a
tad
heavier than I remember.
--------------------------------------
After somebody decided they needed my Mag housing 77, more than I did,
I ended up with an 18VDC DeWalt panel saw as part of a drill/saw
package.

I won't go back.

Not having to screw around with a cord was reason enough.

After that, it's a matter of weight.

Lew

On 8/8/11 5:34 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/8/11 3:05 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 08/08/2011 02:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 2:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 8/8/2011 9:38 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I
just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.
...

If a simple bump can do that, it's the POS in "POS RAS" that's the
problem, not that it was a RAS...

It's inherent in the design. Bump the end of the arm from the side and
something's going to give. It's called "leverage".
...

It'd take a hell of a bump to move the arm on my RAS16; you'll regret
you hit it and learn
not to do that again if you were to do so...

In the roughly 35 years I've not had it be an issue _ever_ so my
conclusion is either
there's something wrong in a shop that one would get hit so hard and
often or it's simply
too flimsy if a casual bump can knock it out of line.

I've seem the small DeWalts (Dad had one for 'round the farm) and I've
also seen several
various Craftsmans of similar lightweight construction; them I'll
grant aren't much of a
tool as far as sturdiness goes altho I used the one Dad had for the
kitchen cabinets rather
than drag mine from VA to KS and it was serviceable. I'd label it in
the POS class, though,
simply because it was so lightweight. It was also seriously
under-powered for anything other
than softwoods or at most 4-quarter hardwoods

Not so w/ the 16RAS; it weighs nearly 400 lb; I doubt the DeWalt
weighed 100.

I have a Craftsman 10" RAS that I use for 90-degree crosscuts ONLY, and
I never adjust it away from that position. I could see how it could get
knocked out of adjustment if got a good wack, and I do check it
periodically but it never seems to do that of its own accord, so I'm
happy with it. I would like to have a *serious* big-daddy RAS to replace
it, but I'm slightly space constrained and I see no immediate reason to
seek one out. If a professional quality RAS is as useless as a lot of
people here would have us believe, I'd like to see what every home
center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take theirs away.


I was just using mine and even though the settings are still dead on,
it's just such a PITA to change the angles of the cuts. You have raise
the height to change the angle (because of how the blade cuts into the
table in order to make a through cut, then lower it back down.
Every time you want to change either angle.

That's a big reason most guys use it only for crosscuts.


You should use a sacrificial table in front of the fence, usually of
1/4" ply. This eliminates cutting into the main table. It also lets you
adjust the saw for miter cuts without raising or lowering the arm by
returning the motor/blade behind the fence, adjusting the miter and them
making the miter cut while only cutting into the sacrificial table. You
do have to raise/lower the arm for bevel cuts though.

I've never had to replace the main table on my RAS as it has never been
touched by a blade. Fences OTOH are a disposable item. I make mine out
of poplar. I use baltic birch for the sacricial table and they usually
last 4-5 years.

I use a sacrificial top. The original is virgin.
I make a lot of bevels, which makes it a PITA imo.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/8/2011 5:18 PM, Robatoy wrote:
In omain.local,
"J. wrote:

In aweb.com,
says...

"J. wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

Brilliant idea!!

Ai't it. LOL.. I often use my jig saw and speed square, with the right
Bosch blade I get burnished smooth cuts with little to no tear out.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:32:26 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article m,
"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:

[snipped all be the important part.LOL]

I AM a safety freak.



There you have it. You HAVE to be 110% awake, NO routine cuts, perfect
set-up and materials...

For a super careful, vigilant user, RAS's offer only a small set of
advantages that simple aren't worth the danger.

What's "the danger"?

On a table saw you move your fingers into the blade.

On an RAS you move the blade into your fingers.

Either way you have no fingers.

How is one "more dangerous" than the other?

The RAS wants to move the blade toward your fingers. The TS wants to throw
everything away from the blade (assuming, of course, that your fingers are
never behind the blade).

In article ,
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/8/2011 5:18 PM, Robatoy wrote:
In omain.local,
"J. wrote:

In aweb.com,
says...

"J. wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

Brilliant idea!!

Ai't it. LOL.. I often use my jig saw and speed square, with the right
Bosch blade I get burnished smooth cuts with little to no tear out.

Those Bosch blades (the right one for the job) simply are the
best.That's not to say that there aren't other good blades (Festool) but
far be it for me to start a 'discussion' in here.