On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 12:01:05 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 21:39:52 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2011 7:58 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:51:46 GMT, (Doug
Miller)
wrote:
...

- If a RAS ever *does* kick back, the wood is thrown *away* from the
operator.

Not on a crosscut!
...

Horse pucky!

How can it be anything else unless one is standing behind the saw
instead at the operator location?

Simple. When a crosscut kicks the wood is *not* thrown back, away from the
operator, rather the carriage is propelled *towards* the operator.

Yes, that *can* happen, if the operator isn't feeding the carriage properly.

If no mistakes are ever made, *all* tools are safe.

But so what? Even if it does, you can't be hurt unless you've done something
blindingly stupid like operating the saw without the blade guard, or putting
your other hand in line with the cut.

See above.

"Leon" wrote:

Ai't it. LOL.. I often use my jig saw and speed square, with the
right Bosch blade I get burnished smooth cuts with little to no tear
out.
---------------------------------
And here I thought I was the only one who pulled that trick.

Great minds run in the same gutterG

Lew

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 08:03:54 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/7/2011 11:20 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
...

If anything, the carriage may try to accelerate, but holding a firm hold
on it is sufficient.

If you're lucky and nothing else goes wrong.

I'm older than I think...it's actually been 40+ years and _never_ had
any of this "anything else" to go wrong yet. I really don't know what
there is _to_ go wrong.

I've used the RAS for 30 years+ and never had even a hint of such a
thing as kickback of material, riding over a board or the other examples
cited.

That often happens after a kickback.

Exceptin' it just isn't an issue...

Sure got me to clean out my pants!

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 11:55:58 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , " wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:51:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article m, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote:

RAS should be O U T L A W E D ! !
---------------------------------------
You want an argument, change the subject.

Cerritos college has ONE (1) RAS in the entire facility.

It's use is restricted to cross cutting rough stock to length.

Even that cut gives me the "willies"

Why should it? I've never understood the antipathy that many guys here have
toward radial arm saws. One person used to call them "radical harm saws" and I

truly don't understand why. It's just a case of using the right tool for the
right job. A radial arm saw is *not* the right tool for ripping (not the best
one, anyway), but IMHO it's safer than a table saw for crosscuts:

- The stock stays put; you can even clamp it to the table if you want. There's
*zero* possibility that a long board can torque crooked, bind, and kick back.

I *did* have a board (cedar, in fact) bind and "kick back" (actually propelled
the carriage toward me). It eventually grabbed hold of the saw blade and
stopped it dead. Then I changed my pants.

Apparently you didn't have it clamped to the table.

GMAFB! The wood didn't move 1/16" THE CARRIAGE JUMPED!

- Since the stock doesn't move, there's no kickback danger posed by cutting
unsurfaced lumber that might rock or twist: shim it, clamp it, cut it.

- If a RAS ever *does* kick back, the wood is thrown *away* from the operator.

Not on a crosscut!

Yes, on a crosscut -- the wood's going to go the same direction the teeth are
moving, and that is indeed away from the operator.

Good grief. The wood is tight against the fence.

Perhaps you meant to say "not on a rip cut"?

No. I didn't.


- The saw carriage runs on *rails*. Don't put your hand in line with the
rails, and it's completely impossible to be hit by the blade.

Which is why I still have all my fingers.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:42:27 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
My old faithful corded circular saw finally bit the dust yesterday.
Something went Pop! and it stopped running. Disassembly today shows
half a dozen segments missing from the commutator; the critical parts
are no longer available (after 15+ years, that's no surprise), so
it's time to buy a new one.

My uses are, I think, pretty typical: framing, building decks,
cutting sheet goods to manageable size.

I'm looking for something that will last a good long time. The one
that
died is only the second one I've ever owned; the first one lasted
nearly 20 years, and I'm hoping for similar durability. The budget is
large enough to include Bosch, Makita, or Milwaukee, but not Festool.

I'm looking for general recommendations in two areas:
a) corded vs. cordless -- my experiences with cordless circular saws
have not been positive, but they've been cheap saws, and I'm willing
to be persuaded that cordless circular saws that won't drain a
battery in five seconds do actually exist; and
b) left blade vs. right blade. Every circular saw that I've ever used
has had the blade on the right. Advertising for left-blade saws
includes phrases like "gives users the clearest line of sight for
easy, accurate cutting" but I just don't see how it's really any
different. I'm inclined to get a right-blade saw simply because
that's what I'm used to, but if there truly are advantages to having
the blade on the left, I'd be much obliged if someone would explain
them to me. In case it makes a difference to the recommendation, I'm
right-handed.

I'm also looking for recommendations of specific brands and/or models
both to seek out, and to avoid. I intend to avoid tools made in China
if at all possible.

TIA... Thanks may also be expressed tangibly, in the form of a cold
homebrew or three, next time you pass through Indianapolis.

-----------

Judging from the replies, everybody pretty much likes what they have.

If I didn't I would buy something else. ...and have.

Therefore, one conclusion is get the saw that has the most attractive paint
job - you'll get used to it.

It's more than paint.

On 8/8/2011 6:14 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

Ai't it. LOL.. I often use my jig saw and speed square, with the
right Bosch blade I get burnished smooth cuts with little to no tear
out.
---------------------------------
And here I thought I was the only one who pulled that trick.

Great minds run in the same gutterG

Lew


Now there is two or more of us Lew. ;~)

On 8/8/2011 3:48 PM, Leon wrote:
....

Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table....

no, No, NO!!!

Like a TS, a good RAS setup is in a table providing infeed and outfeed
support.

You'll play hell doing full-size 2+X hardwoods of large sizes even on
the TS simply for the effort of pushing the material even if do have
support.

Now, no everybody does large architectural work but that's what I did
mostly and the TS was not the tool of choice for much simply because
moving the material was harder than moving the tool by far...it's also
why I have a 16"-er. (It's also why most of the original work in the
old mansions used to refurb was able to be done--hand tools move on
large surfaces, not the other way 'round.)

--

On 8/8/2011 4:04 PM, Robatoy wrote:
....

The usefulness of a RAS does not negate the fact that is proportionally
easier to make a serious screw up than with any other power tool.

....

Rob, generally I'll agree w/ you but you're just wrong here...

The RAS isn't nothin' compared to a 1" or larger spindle shaper as to
what you can do to yourself and how quickly, but they're also in many
large shops.

It is, like anything else, an acquired skill and a comfort level comes
w/ that skill and experience.

There's nothing about knots or other things in lumber in a heavy RAS w/
sufficient power to fret over; they simply don't know they exist for the
most part.

The problems of small and under-powered are of note but it's the
limitations of the implementation of the device not the device itself
that's the problem there.

--

On 8/8/2011 4:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

"J. wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

"A", sure...do 8 or 10 at a time and it's not as much of a slam dunk...

--

On 8/8/2011 6:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
....

Sure got me to clean out my pants!

Prolly needed it anyway...

The RAS I have is powerful enough to just keep on trucking--I've never
been able to feed it anything that even gives it a moment's pause. That
includes large old oak and SYP timbers from antebellum houses or other
reclaimed industrial buildings and so on that is some hard stuff...

--

On 8/8/2011 4:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:32:26 -0400, "J. wrote:

In ,
says...

In aweb.com,
"Lee Michaels"leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:

[snipped all be the important part.LOL]

I AM a safety freak.



There you have it. You HAVE to be 110% awake, NO routine cuts, perfect
set-up and materials...

For a super careful, vigilant user, RAS's offer only a small set of
advantages that simple aren't worth the danger.

What's "the danger"?

On a table saw you move your fingers into the blade.

On an RAS you move the blade into your fingers.

Either way you have no fingers.

How is one "more dangerous" than the other?

The RAS wants to move the blade toward your fingers. The TS wants to throw
everything away from the blade (assuming, of course, that your fingers are
never behind the blade).

Why would you have your fingers in line with the blade - or even near in
line?

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:54:06 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:

On 8/8/2011 4:08 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:32:26 -0400, "J. wrote:

In ,
says...

In aweb.com,
"Lee Michaels"leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:

[snipped all be the important part.LOL]

I AM a safety freak.



There you have it. You HAVE to be 110% awake, NO routine cuts, perfect
set-up and materials...

For a super careful, vigilant user, RAS's offer only a small set of
advantages that simple aren't worth the danger.

What's "the danger"?

On a table saw you move your fingers into the blade.

On an RAS you move the blade into your fingers.

Either way you have no fingers.

How is one "more dangerous" than the other?

The RAS wants to move the blade toward your fingers. The TS wants to throw
everything away from the blade (assuming, of course, that your fingers are
never behind the blade).

Why would you have your fingers in line with the blade - or even near in
line?

Why do people lose fingers?

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:47:23 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/8/2011 6:15 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
...

Sure got me to clean out my pants!

Prolly needed it anyway...

After, sure. ;-)

The RAS I have is powerful enough to just keep on trucking--I've never
been able to feed it anything that even gives it a moment's pause. That
includes large old oak and SYP timbers from antebellum houses or other
reclaimed industrial buildings and so on that is some hard stuff...

I've never had problems with hardwoods, only soft. As I said in another post,
I was making fence pickets out of rough sawn (white/green?) cedar 1x. It
still surprises me that it took off like that. I had a couple of kicks
ripping on the thing, too, but those weren't nearly as exciting.

Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us
believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take
theirs away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I
guess somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous
'as is'. They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and
'safety-ise' the bejeezus out of that RAS.

Morons? Two letters come to mind...

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:48:23 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 8/8/2011 1:43 PM, Max wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote


While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Max



Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table. Clamping is not really
going to be effective but having some one else or something to support
the board would be needed. You have a 2.5 to 1 leverage ratio working
against you. Not saying that you cannot do it, it is just not as
straight forward as making a cut when the wood is not going to be
working against you.

Roller infeed support or a 8+ foot infeed table is REQUIRED for any
kind of accuracy on a RAS.

That is not going to be as big of a problem problem on a 50" capacity TS
with a closer 1/1 leverage ratio. I squared 7, 8' 1x8 today with a
miter gauge and did not give it a second thought.
A sliding table cabinet saw is the most accurate for squaring stock.

Now if your RAS has a long table on one or both both sides you have over
come one of the unique problems.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:04:17 -0400, Robatoy
wrote:

In article m,
"Max" wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Max

The usefulness of a RAS does not negate the fact that is proportionally
easier to make a serious screw up than with any other power tool.
A Big ol' beefy 12" Delta, from industrial yore, is a mighty fine piece
of gear which will do things other devices won't. BUT, you best be
really careful, be very alert, and make sure there's no hidden cuppage
or twistage (suck on those two words, spelchucker) in your stock... or a
know even.
Now add the instability of the sheetmetal, stamped pieces of **** that
Craftsman put out and you have amplified the danger by a large
percentage. A sloppy arm with a wonky motor with crap bearings and a
whirling, toothed wheel of death hanging, spinning in mid air over a
work surface is just NOT my idea of a device that makes me all
comfy-womfy in terms of safety.

BTW, all you proponents of the RAS... If you ever need to cut an end off
a 12' x 1x6.. do what I do. A Swanson aluminum Speedsquare and a
circular saw. I can get a pretty nice cut anywhere any time without
first have to clean all the crap off the RAS table and move countless
objects d'art so I can manoeuvre a hunk of lumber, through a shop just
to do that simple operation on a very dangerous piece of crap.

Any RAS other than a "professional" model is a waste of time and
energy. A good one is (or can be) worth it's weight in gold.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us
believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take
theirs away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I
guess somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous
'as is'. They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and
'safety-ise' the bejeezus out of that RAS.

Morons? Two letters come to mind...

I'm going to tag on to my own post - because I'm ****ed. **** every one of
you that delight in describing "morons" and "pimple faced kids" and all of
the other terms that are commonly found here when talking about the BORGS.
Most of you are more full of **** than the people you deride. I am one of
those BORG people and yeah - I'm spouting off because I've reached my limit.
I see more stupid **** posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any
given day. There's just way too much self-importance here in this group -
and I don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed deserve
recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of themselves. This
group has way too many of those.

--

-Mike-

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:42:27 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
My old faithful corded circular saw finally bit the dust yesterday.
Something went Pop! and it stopped running. Disassembly today shows
half a dozen segments missing from the commutator; the critical parts
are no longer available (after 15+ years, that's no surprise), so
it's time to buy a new one.

My uses are, I think, pretty typical: framing, building decks,
cutting sheet goods to manageable size.

I'm looking for something that will last a good long time. The one
that
died is only the second one I've ever owned; the first one lasted
nearly 20 years, and I'm hoping for similar durability. The budget is
large enough to include Bosch, Makita, or Milwaukee, but not Festool.

I'm looking for general recommendations in two areas:
a) corded vs. cordless -- my experiences with cordless circular saws
have not been positive, but they've been cheap saws, and I'm willing
to be persuaded that cordless circular saws that won't drain a
battery in five seconds do actually exist; and
b) left blade vs. right blade. Every circular saw that I've ever used
has had the blade on the right. Advertising for left-blade saws
includes phrases like "gives users the clearest line of sight for
easy, accurate cutting" but I just don't see how it's really any
different. I'm inclined to get a right-blade saw simply because
that's what I'm used to, but if there truly are advantages to having
the blade on the left, I'd be much obliged if someone would explain
them to me. In case it makes a difference to the recommendation, I'm
right-handed.

I'm also looking for recommendations of specific brands and/or models
both to seek out, and to avoid. I intend to avoid tools made in China
if at all possible.

TIA... Thanks may also be expressed tangibly, in the form of a cold
homebrew or three, next time you pass through Indianapolis.

-----------

Judging from the replies, everybody pretty much likes what they have.

Therefore, one conclusion is get the saw that has the most attractive paint
job - you'll get used to it.

My old Milwaukee and my old Delta are both twice the saw virtually
anything avalable today is. About 10 years or so ago I took out the
armature on the delta cutting aluminum - I had a choice - something
like $120 for a new armature, of $69 for a new cheap saw. I'm sure I
made the right choice, because I still have that saw. The cheap $69
saw would have been in the dump long ago.

On 8/8/11 8:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
I see more stupid **** posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any
given day.

I'd agree with that.


There's just way too much self-importance here in this group -
and I don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed deserve
recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of themselves. This
group has way too many of those.


I agree with that, too..... even though there's been a time or two I
rode that side of the fence.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/8/2011 8:12 PM, wrote:
....

Any RAS other than a "professional" model is a waste of time and
energy. A good one is (or can be) worth it's weight in gold.

Troo-dat...

--

On 8/8/2011 8:03 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
....

I've never had problems with hardwoods, only soft. As I said in another post,
I was making fence pickets out of rough sawn (white/green?) cedar 1x. It
still surprises me that it took off like that. I had a couple of kicks
ripping on the thing, too, but those weren't nearly as exciting.

Indeed, the softer the material, the more likely for the blade to want
to accelerate.

Learning that and the touch to know how much to hold against is an
acquired skill.

It's a case where an under-powered saw is worse than a big 'un,
too...mine will just zip right on thru w/ a rough cut at that speed but
it won't bog down; the smaller ones are the ones that can choke if let
them get ahead of themselves.

I still say it isn't particularly dangerous--a little of a surprise,
sure, and a screwed up workpiece maybe, but unless the saw is a _real_
POS, it'll just wedge and generally stall and pop a breaker.

The access problem is why I don't rip narrow stock on the RAS unless it
is too long for my TS setup I may make a rare exception, but w/ large
enough pieces that have easy enough clearance to push it thru, I much
prefer ripping because I've got the long in/ and outfeed tables
specifically to handle the material w/o ever having to do anything but
slide it along the fence.

You _are_, I presume, feeding against the rotation and not trying to do
an the equivalent of a climb-cutting operation w/ a router???? Trying
that _WILL_ get you, indeed...

--

wrote:


My old Milwaukee and my old Delta are both twice the saw virtually
anything avalable today is. About 10 years or so ago I took out the
armature on the delta cutting aluminum - I had a choice - something
like $120 for a new armature, of $69 for a new cheap saw. I'm sure I
made the right choice, because I still have that saw. The cheap $69
saw would have been in the dump long ago.

That's interesting - why do you say that? Difference in construction?
Evidence? Actually, I believe you are proabaly right, but I'm interested
in hearing what you actually found to be the reason for your statement.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:

I'm going to tag on to my own post - because I'm ****ed. **** every
one of you that delight in describing "morons" and "pimple faced
kids" and all of the other terms that are commonly found here when
talking about the BORGS. Most of you are more full of **** than the
people you deride. I am one of those BORG people and yeah - I'm
spouting off because I've reached my limit. I see more stupid ****
posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any given day.
There's just way too much self-importance here in this group - and I
don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed
deserve recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of
themselves. This group has way too many of those.
--------------------------
Feel better Mike?G

Lew

In article , says...

On 8/8/2011 4:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In aweb.com,
says...

"J. wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

"A", sure...do 8 or 10 at a time and it's not as much of a slam dunk...

Well, actually it is. 10 of them lined up on a 2x4 beats manhandling 10
of them into and out of the shop and onto and off of the saw.

In fact for 10 I'd probably clamp 'em together then use my sheet-goods
jig.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 18:18:52 -0400, Robatoy
wrote:

In article ocal,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

In article m,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

Brilliant idea!!

I never, ever had any luck making a square cut on a vertical 4x4 until
I learned the speed square method. Slap-in-the-head time.

Such a simple concept, such a rich reward!

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

In article ocal, "J. Clarke" wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article m,
"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:

[snipped all be the important part.LOL]

I AM a safety freak.



There you have it. You HAVE to be 110% awake, NO routine cuts, perfect
set-up and materials...

For a super careful, vigilant user, RAS's offer only a small set of
advantages that simple aren't worth the danger.

What's "the danger"?

On a table saw you move your fingers into the blade.

Fairly easy to do, since you're using your fingers to feed the wood into the
blade.

On an RAS you move the blade into your fingers.

Only if you're stupid enough to put your fingers in front of the blade.

Either way you have no fingers.

How is one "more dangerous" than the other?

See above: the RAS rides on rails. Keep your fingers away from the path of the
rails, and there's no problem.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:12:30 -0400, Robatoy
wrote:

In article ,
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 8/8/2011 5:18 PM, Robatoy wrote:
In omain.local,
"J. wrote:

In aweb.com,
says...

"J. wrote



While an RAS, perfectly aligned, is a wonderful tool, bump it in the
wrong place and you have to go through the whole process again. I just
don't get the same repeatability out of the RAS that I do out of a
crosscut sled on the table saw.


Yabbut....squaring the end of a ten foot 1 X 12? ;-)

Is easier with a Speed Square and a Skilsaw than with any stationary
machine. If you need more precision you make a jig.

Brilliant idea!!

Ai't it. LOL.. I often use my jig saw and speed square, with the right
Bosch blade I get burnished smooth cuts with little to no tear out.

Those Bosch blades (the right one for the job) simply are the
best.That's not to say that there aren't other good blades (Festool) but
far be it for me to start a 'discussion' in here.

I borrowed one my clients' Bosch spade bits the other day when I
couldn't find my set in my truck. Hayseuss Crisco, what a difference!
I didn't know a spade bit could cut like that. Scary fast, smooth
sides, super-aggressive feed. I'm completely sold.

Bosch Daredevil. Here's one source:
http://www.toolking.com/bosch-dsb500...it-set-3-piece

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:14:34 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Mike Marlow wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us
believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take
theirs away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I
guess somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous
'as is'. They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and
'safety-ise' the bejeezus out of that RAS.

Morons? Two letters come to mind...

I'm going to tag on to my own post - because I'm ****ed. **** every one of
you that delight in describing "morons" and "pimple faced kids" and all of
the other terms that are commonly found here when talking about the BORGS.
Most of you are more full of **** than the people you deride. I am one of
those BORG people and yeah - I'm spouting off because I've reached my limit.
I see more stupid **** posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any
given day. There's just way too much self-importance here in this group -
and I don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed deserve
recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of themselves. This
group has way too many of those.

I'd imagine that you're trepidacious around mirrors, eh, Mike?

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:33:15 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/8/2011 8:12 PM, wrote:
...

Any RAS other than a "professional" model is a waste of time and
energy. A good one is (or can be) worth it's weight in gold.

Troo-dat...

Like the 12 to 16-inchers at the lumber yard?

I wonder what this local (?) yard uses...
http://www.jettoolumberyard.com/

--
I merely took the energy it takes to pout and wrote some blues.
--Duke Ellington

In article ,
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

Mike Marlow wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
Steve Turner wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us
believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take
theirs away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I
guess somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous
'as is'. They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and
'safety-ise' the bejeezus out of that RAS.

Morons? Two letters come to mind...

I'm going to tag on to my own post - because I'm ****ed. **** every one of
you that delight in describing "morons" and "pimple faced kids" and all of
the other terms that are commonly found here when talking about the BORGS.
Most of you are more full of **** than the people you deride. I am one of
those BORG people and yeah - I'm spouting off because I've reached my limit.
I see more stupid **** posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any
given day. There's just way too much self-importance here in this group -
and I don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed deserve
recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of themselves. This
group has way too many of those.

Take a powder, Mike. Relax. You can't tell me that Home Depot is 'moron
free'. I have stared into the vacuum of their eyes. There ARE pimply
faced kids that are left in charge of departments where their help is
useless. Most of the time it's not their fault. A sub-manager needs to
fill a hole and says: "Jason, you are in paint tonight."
I walk in and ask a question about primer for cedar. "Gee, I don't
know..."
I understand why he doesn't know, he hasn't been around long enough,
never went out on a paint crew, so what-the-**** do I expect for minimum
wage?

Now, somehow you swing this hard over to the an extreme rant. Self
importance and derision?

When I asked the 'associate' about primer for cedar, it was *I* who knew
****-all, and he was no help and that's his ****ing job. It is the STORE
that tries to get away with unqualified staff, because heaven forbid
they'd have to pay them a decent wage...AKA.. when you pay peanuts, you
get monkeys.

....and man, you've been some cranky lately.

In article , dpb wrote:

On 8/8/2011 4:04 PM, Robatoy wrote:
...

The usefulness of a RAS does not negate the fact that is proportionally
easier to make a serious screw up than with any other power tool.

...

Rob, generally I'll agree w/ you but you're just wrong here...

Hell, that's happened before. But what have here, is someone (you) who
defends the RAS from the vantage point of having a rugged, rigid
industrial 16" and my beef is with the far less secure crap that is in
the majority.

The RAS isn't nothin' compared to a 1" or larger spindle shaper as to
what you can do to yourself and how quickly, but they're also in many
large shops.

Oh hell, yes. A shaper is probably the nastiest piece of gear out
there...jointers can eat a hand right to the wrist and blow a cloud of
pink mist all over the shop.

It is, like anything else, an acquired skill and a comfort level comes
w/ that skill and experience.

And that's another factor. A RAS requires thought, skill, experience.
Joe Blow, who buys one on Saturday morning, assembles it hastily in
order to build that dream piece of furniture and a RAS is the perfect
tool to teach him that there are no short cuts, and second chances only
come to a lucky few. Same as a 16-year old with a license he got 2 days
prior, who climbs on a 150HP crotch-rocket. Is that the motorcycle's
fault? Your argument is that it isn't. (Work with me here). Is it the
kid's fault?......in fact, it is the combination of the two which causes
all the grief.

As long as one throws qualifiers at the risk factors involved, all tools
would end up being safe. We know that that isn't true. The RAS requires
a disproportionate amount of caution, especially if it is a wobbly piece
of crap.

There's nothing about knots or other things in lumber in a heavy RAS w/
sufficient power to fret over; they simply don't know they exist for the
most part.

I agree. Underpowered saws are more dangerous.

The problems of small and under-powered are of note but it's the
limitations of the implementation of the device not the device itself
that's the problem there.

--

You, your experience, smarts, and a fine tool, make that combination as
safe as it can be. The rest of the RAS's and their operators are at a
higher risk.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:24:35 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:33:15 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 8/8/2011 8:12 PM, wrote:
...

Any RAS other than a "professional" model is a waste of time and
energy. A good one is (or can be) worth it's weight in gold.

Troo-dat...

Like the 12 to 16-inchers at the lumber yard?

I wonder what this local (?) yard uses...
http://www.jettoolumberyard.com/
They don't have to be 12 or 16 inchers to be good, and by far not all
12 or 16 inchers ARE good. I've seen a lot of big crap over the years
- and I've seen some beautiful, simple, crude, and accurate swinging
cutoff saws at lumber yards that are certainly not "radial arm saws"
that do that job just fine - but I wouldn't want to try to cut cove
moulding with them.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:54:25 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


My old Milwaukee and my old Delta are both twice the saw virtually
anything avalable today is. About 10 years or so ago I took out the
armature on the delta cutting aluminum - I had a choice - something
like $120 for a new armature, of $69 for a new cheap saw. I'm sure I
made the right choice, because I still have that saw. The cheap $69
saw would have been in the dump long ago.

That's interesting - why do you say that? Difference in construction?
Evidence? Actually, I believe you are proabaly right, but I'm interested
in hearing what you actually found to be the reason for your statement.
The old Delta is a solid aluminum case, with cast aluminum shoe and
pivots - very accurate and solid. The brush holders are likewize
solidly constructed, and the bearings - ALL of them, are precision
fitted into the aluminum housings. The metal fan on the armature is
pressed onto a spline on the shaft, and the commutator is like a peice
of jewelry, with lots of metal. The armature is well wrapped, and well
"varnished" .

The cheap saws have the bearings pressed into plastic housings - the
brush holders are a joke, plastic fans that melt and come off the
shaft if the armature gets warm, the stamped sheet metal shoe is
fastened to the stamped depth adjustment peice with a couple of sloppy
rivets for the pivot. IMPOSSIBLE for them to maintain any accuracy
over time (assuming there is any to start with) and the crappy stamped
wing nuts that are supposed to hold the shoe adjustment either strip
or jam after a few uses.

The saw has had some HEAVY use, cutting mixed hardwood studs and
planks for my shed, among a lot of other jobs.

The old Milwaukee is heavier, and more powerful, and is an example of
a plastic (double insulated) saw that is also very well built - with a
lot of heavy cast aluminum parts and good over-all construction (and
it's likely over 25 years old too)

On 8/8/2011 7:37 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table....

no, No, NO!!!

Like a TS, a good RAS setup is in a table providing infeed and outfeed
support.


If you will reread what I said, given the way "most" are set up...

On 8/8/2011 8:14 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
In ,
Steve wrote:

If a professional
quality RAS is as useless as a lot of people here would have us
believe, I'd like to see
what every home center and lumber yard would do if you tried to take
theirs away.

The RAS at Home Despot has so many safety devices attached to it that
you can hardly tell it is a RAS. Trap doors, sliding things.... I
guess somehow, the industrial safety crowd thought it was dangerous
'as is'. They then felt compelled to deal with the morons and
'safety-ise' the bejeezus out of that RAS.

Morons? Two letters come to mind...

I'm going to tag on to my own post - because I'm ****ed. **** every one of
you that delight in describing "morons" and "pimple faced kids" and all of
the other terms that are commonly found here when talking about the BORGS.
Most of you are more full of **** than the people you deride. I am one of
those BORG people and yeah - I'm spouting off because I've reached my limit.
I see more stupid **** posted here than I hear spoken in the store on any
given day. There's just way too much self-importance here in this group -
and I don't care what you've done in your career. I've seen a lot of very
successful people with great skills and accomplishments, who indeed deserve
recoginition, but at the same time, think too much of themselves. This
group has way too many of those.


FWIW, My comment about idiot people at the BORG was mostly pointed at
the customers.
With equipment exposed to the public one of them that is not authorized
or qualified is going to help them selves to it when they get tired of
waiting for some one to show up to make the cut.

"make the cut"?????

They aren't allowed to turn on those dust collectors in Canada. They do,
however provide a manual hardback saw and a mitre box for the customer to
mangle his/her whole body with when they cut off a piece of trim. Those
things can be dangerous!...LOL

----------------

"Leon" wrote in message
...
FWIW, My comment about idiot people at the BORG was mostly pointed at
the customers.
With equipment exposed to the public one of them that is not authorized
or qualified is going to help them selves to it when they get tired of
waiting for some one to show up to make the cut.

On 8/9/2011 6:31 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/8/2011 7:37 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table....

no, No, NO!!!

Like a TS, a good RAS setup is in a table providing infeed and outfeed
support.


If you will reread what I said, given the way "most" are set up...

Well, _most_ TS are sitting on their own, too, and you wouldn't say that
makes them unsuited for use...it's a selective criticism against the RAS
owing to your bias against it, not a real issue.

--

On 8/8/2011 10:55 PM, Robatoy wrote:
In , wrote:
....

It is, like anything else, an acquired skill and a comfort level comes
w/ that skill and experience.

And that's another factor. A RAS requires thought, skill, experience.
Joe Blow, who buys one on Saturday morning, assembles it hastily in
order to build that dream piece of furniture and a RAS is the perfect
tool to teach him that there are no short cuts, and second chances only
come to a lucky few. Same as a 16-year old with a license he got 2 days
prior, who climbs on a 150HP crotch-rocket. Is that the motorcycle's
fault? Your argument is that it isn't. (Work with me here). Is it the
kid's fault?......in fact, it is the combination of the two which causes
all the grief.

As long as one throws qualifiers at the risk factors involved, all tools
would end up being safe. We know that that isn't true. The RAS requires
a disproportionate amount of caution, especially if it is a wobbly piece
of crap.

....

You, your experience, smarts, and a fine tool, make that combination as
safe as it can be. The rest of the RAS's and their operators are at a
higher risk.

I really don't see how the RAS is any riskier than the cheap homeowner
TS the same Joe Blow could put in the trunk of his car and carry home
for the same purpose...many of them are too small a table, critically
underpowered and flimsy just as does the cheap RAS.

As for the comparison, yes, I do tend to blame the operator as being the
culprit over the tool as a general precept. I suppose being a farm-bred
and raised kid who grew up around large and often far more perilous
equipment(+) gives me an attitude, not to mention having reached
official geezer status.

(+) I'm such an old f--- that I predate the advent of required
fully-enclosed PTO shafts, chain shields were generally as minimal as
possible and open platforms. One didn't expect the gear to look out for
you; you knew to respect it and to be the cautious one yourself.

Now, things aren't the way they used to be and it does seem as I assist
at Farm Bureau safety events for kids (they're required to have a course
and certificate to work off their own farmstead now) that there isn't
the awareness that we used to have and an expectation that somehow they
should be protected against whatever happens instead of ensuring that
something bad does _not_ happen. Equipment _is_ safer and that's
_a_good_thing_ (tm) but expectations are so different in societal
blame-shifting it shows up even at this. I do not think that is a good
trend.

--

On 8/9/2011 8:11 AM, dpb wrote:
On 8/9/2011 6:31 AM, Leon wrote:
On 8/8/2011 7:37 PM, dpb wrote:
On 8/8/2011 3:48 PM, Leon wrote:
...

Given the way most RAS's are set up, squaring that board might be a bit
more diffident once you actually try that. IIRC the blade is
approximately 30 inches from the end of the table so you have about 7
1/2 feet of board hanging off of the table....

no, No, NO!!!

Like a TS, a good RAS setup is in a table providing infeed and outfeed
support.


If you will reread what I said, given the way "most" are set up...

Well, _most_ TS are sitting on their own, too, and you wouldn't say that
makes them unsuited for use...it's a selective criticism against the RAS
owing to your bias against it, not a real issue.

The whole point is, and you your self have made the comment that the
DeWalt/B&D style RAS's are less than desirable. Most users use that
style saw if using a RAS and the users have a valid point about the
problems that are inherent with RAS's.

Because you use a "Tank of a RAS does not mean that there are not
deficiencies in the design.

On 8/9/2011 9:04 AM, Leon wrote:
....

The whole point is, and you your self have made the comment that the
DeWalt/B&D style RAS's are less than desirable. Most users use that
style saw if using a RAS and the users have a valid point about the
problems that are inherent with RAS's.

Because you use a "Tank of a RAS does not mean that there are not
deficiencies in the design.

But the same thing is true about the sorry POS benchtop or contractor
wannabe TS's, too...

It's not the RAS per se, just like it's not the TS; it's the
implementation if anything.

The old DeWalt of Dad's is still here; it would be perfectly adequate as
a hobbyist tool w/ one thing--a more powerful motor. At one time one
could, in fact, swap out the components and do so; I tried to talk Dad
into doing it but he was almost done w/ the house remodel so didn't
think it was worth fooling with and so it's still as it was. I brought
my shop from TN when came back, of course, so it's still out there.
I've not gone to trouble of trying to sort out what have so many
duplicates of or which of the combined set is the better to cull the
herd but at some point really should; I've got stuff in every corner of
every outbuilding on the place...

Somehow the RAS has become the same emblem of the down and out to be
kicked around just like the BORGs; it's a popular position but is mostly
just reiterating the refrain.

I'll retire from the thread; I think I've made my position clear. The
RAS is a fine tool for the purposes to which it is best suited and is a
worthy complement to the TS in almost any shop. I would still recommend
a _good_ TS as the first acquisition for most folks but I'll never
accept the blanket condemnation of the RAS as a device. Criticism of a
specific tool is something different.

--