On 7/5/2011 9:58 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/5/2011 8:46 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500,
wrote:
2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a
side
effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
drywall.

I'm not the one who brought it up.

Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who has
worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result is a
buggered up head that won't take much torque.

Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.

Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
screw shank breaks.

Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I have
(rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I remember) on a
drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal experience. I abuse
the hell out of them too, because I know the head won't strip. I'm more
careful with plain screws where I know I can strip out the head w/o much
effort.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

I can't tell the difference, either. The shelves and boxes usually say
"Philips" but I have noticed they stay on the driver bit much better than a
plated woodscrew labeled Philips. Perhaps the lack of patent allows too many
people to use the name indiscriminately and change the spec to work better
than an original Philips design. Even Phi;is has changed their design to
avoid further embarassment....LOL

As far as your Swish Army knife, mine didn't come with a Philips, but then
they may be geographical area dependent. Except for drywall screws, I
typically throw out any cross configuration heads on screws supplied with
assemble it yourself items. I like to be able to rely on getting a screw out
for repairs a few years late after the oak rust sets in and I tighten things
a little tighter than a pocket knife to avoid furniture collapsing under
people.


------------

"Jack Stein" wrote in message ...
Looks the same to my "trained eye" as well. To be sure, I just went and
compared one of my drywall screw heads to a Mcfeely's Phillips head wood
screw, and they looked identical to me. Then a DAGS and found a million
sellers identifying drywall screws as "Phillips" head. I admit my eyes
ain't what they once were, but right now, I'm a bit skeptical.

----
On 7/5/2011 9:16 AM, m II wrote:
Drywall screws do not use a Philips head but rather a Frearson that looks
the same to the untrained eye.

On 7/5/2011 9:25 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 9:58 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/5/2011 8:46 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500,
wrote:
2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a
side
effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being
designed
to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as
drywall
screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
drywall.

I'm not the one who brought it up.

Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who
has
worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result
is a
buggered up head that won't take much torque.

Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.

Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
screw shank breaks.

Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I have
(rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I remember) on a
drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal experience. I abuse
the hell out of them too, because I know the head won't strip. I'm more
careful with plain screws where I know I can strip out the head w/o much
effort.

Don't doubt your experience at all. I have broken plenty.

zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:



1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of
this discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)


True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web,
exactly why is it that you waste your time here? If it's 100%
accurate, exactly what is your beef?

Well - if you agree with Mike by your statement that what he says is true,
then why do you follow on with yrour question for his presence here? If
what he says is true - then it is true. Why ask him why he's here?


Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at
stripping the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips
drivers with Pozidriv screws, too. ;-)

Well - from my experience, Phillips heads have performed pretty well. Yup -
I've rounded out some heads, but that was usually from really cheap screws.
I sure cannot state that the Phillips head design is an inferior design, and
I've been driving screws for a lot of years.

--

-Mike-

On 7/5/2011 2:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:


Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who
has worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the
result is a buggered up head that won't take much torque.

I have to say that the only time that phillips head screws have failed me is
when I've put them to more task than they were inteded for.


:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find soap or
wax. ;-)

Puckdropper

On 7/5/2011 10:01 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find soap or
wax. ;-)

Puckdropper

That's right!

On 7/5/11 2:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:


Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I
have (rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I
remember) on a drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal
experience. I abuse the hell out of them too, because I know the
head won't strip. I'm more careful with plain screws where I know I
can strip out the head w/o much effort.

I've broken many Jack. Some because I tried to go too far, and more because
I bought cheap screws.


I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 06 Jul 2011 03:01:49 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:


:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find soap or
wax. ;-)

"Velveeta" and "American" are not cheeses, and because of this, they
have to call 'em "cheese food" or "processed cheese product", and
leaving rotting processed cheese product on a project is akin to
smearing stain and poly all over 'em.

It just isn't _DONE_!

Drill and countersink/bore holes when possible and use Type 17 screws
for a much easier time when you can't/don't/won't.

--
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge.
-- Marie Ebner von Eschenbach

Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find
soap or wax. ;-)


Makes sense. Velveta is 98% vegetable oil.

On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.

When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
fi-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
de-struct than non-cooperative screws.

I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
years, the screw becomes one with the deck...

--
Jack
Don't believe everything you think!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/11 9:39 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.

When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
fi-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
de-struct than non-cooperative screws.

I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
years, the screw becomes one with the deck...


IIRC, stainless is harder than your average metal. Harder = more
brittle, right?
In any case, my deck has those color-coded (joke) deck screws and they
snap right off if I'm not super careful..... and some times even when I
am. I think you're right about the shrinking.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/5/2011 12:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 7/5/11 7:41 AM, m II wrote:

Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere
he uses other names.

Please show me one shred of evidence that I have ever posted anything on
a newsgroup or anywhere else on the internet using a different name.
I beg you to try. Please. You won't find any. Not because it's been
sufficiently hidden, but because it doesn't exist.

He couldn't possibly have been talking about you Mike, or the other Mike
for that matter, both of you are close to newsgroup perfection. And
you're a drummer to boot:-)

Unlike you, everything I post has a sig file with my website. In about 5
seconds you or anyone else can get contact info for me. How about you?
Anyone here can email me if they don't like something I wrote. How about
you?
They can call me to tell me I'm an @$$ or I'm full of $h!t. I don't
write anything in here I wouldn't say to someone's face. How about you?

To me, this is a bunch of buddies, sitting on a porch, having a beer,
giving each other some crap and laughing about it, and occasionally some
good info changes hands. :-)

It shows buddy, it shows.

I'll be waiting for any proof from you about your accusations.
Until then, kindly STFU.

I wouldn't sit on my hands waiting for either to happen.

--
Jack
Mr. Geithner, May I Borrow Your TurboTax?
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:

Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
every time. ;-)

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink.
Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood
before you get the head flush.

Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
strength of the impact driver.

And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.

OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.

Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past
the countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with
the drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested,
and it was hot as hell, but didn't snap.

No lubrication used, no pilot holes, no broken heads, no broken shanks
and no cam out with *any* of them. I even drove a couple of them all
the way through until the white oak split. So much for Morgans
statement that the drywall screw will snap every time. Wrongo!

The Drywall screw actually was the easiest to get started I think
because it has the sharpest point, and to my surprise, the McFeely
Robertson was the hardest to get started and, here's the surprise, was
harder to keep the drill bit in when starting the screw. That may have
simply been because the point wasn't sharp as the drywall screw.

I don't think I ever tried driving a screw into a 1 1/2" piece of white,
or red oak w/o drilling a pilot hole before. The impact driver did it
with ease, and all the screws handled it just fine. The countersink did
exactly what I said as well, not a clean sink, but mostly with some
broken fibers. One of the holes countersunk clean, no clue why.

I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing the
driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws though,
snap the heads off those suckers instantly.

--
Jack
Don't believe everything you think!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/2011 9:39 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.

When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
fi-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
de-struct than non-cooperative screws.

I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
years, the screw becomes one with the deck...


Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit

On 7/6/2011 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:

Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you
will
hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
every time. ;-)

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink.
Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood
before you get the head flush.

Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
strength of the impact driver.

And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.

OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.

Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past the
countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
was hot as hell, but didn't snap.



I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

On 7/6/2011 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

They're around:

http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/1...-packaged.aspx

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 7/6/11 11:55 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 12:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 7/5/11 7:41 AM, m II wrote:

Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere
he uses other names.

Please show me one shred of evidence that I have ever posted anything on
a newsgroup or anywhere else on the internet using a different name.
I beg you to try. Please. You won't find any. Not because it's been
sufficiently hidden, but because it doesn't exist.

He couldn't possibly have been talking about you Mike, or the other Mike
for that matter, both of you are close to newsgroup perfection. And
you're a drummer to boot:-)

Unlike you, everything I post has a sig file with my website. In about 5
seconds you or anyone else can get contact info for me. How about you?
Anyone here can email me if they don't like something I wrote. How about
you?
They can call me to tell me I'm an @$$ or I'm full of $h!t. I don't
write anything in here I wouldn't say to someone's face. How about you?

To me, this is a bunch of buddies, sitting on a porch, having a beer,
giving each other some crap and laughing about it, and occasionally some
good info changes hands. :-)

It shows buddy, it shows.

I'll be waiting for any proof from you about your accusations.
Until then, kindly STFU.

I wouldn't sit on my hands waiting for either to happen.


Thanks, Jack. Next one's on me. :-)

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:39:02 -0400, Jack Stein
wrote:

On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.

When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
fi-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
de-struct than non-cooperative screws.

I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
years, the screw becomes one with the deck...

What type of anti-seize did you use on them during installation?
snort

--
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge.
-- Marie Ebner von Eschenbach

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

--
Fear not those who argue but those who dodge.
-- Marie Ebner von Eschenbach

Jack Stein wrote in
:

*snip*

I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.


I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I would
venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the regular drill
will damage the screws much more than the impact driver.

Puckdropper

Probably not original Phillips head design anyway.

http://www.instructables.com/id/When...g-Phillipsreg/

--------------

"Jack Stein" wrote in message ...

The same number of people that use them. That's probably why they
make'm so the heads don't "bugger"

---------------
On 7/5/2011 12:24 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
How many care if a drywall screw has a buggered head.

On 7/6/2011 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/6/2011 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:

Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
strength of the impact driver.

And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.

OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.

Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past the
countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
was hot as hell, but didn't snap.

I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

I got them at a builders supply. The heads are #8 because before I
posted the message, I compared the head to a screw chart, then put it up
against a the head of the Mcfeely's screw. The body looks a bit thinner
than a standard #8 wood screw, but the head is definitely a #8 and
that's why I specifically said #8 "head".

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

I did use an impact driver, screw snapped immediately. The next screw I
soaked with Kano and smacked it a few times with a Phillips driver and
hammer which usually loosens stuck screws, snapped that one as well.
These were stainless, with zero rust even after 20 years. I don't recall
snapping any putting them in. Not sure if being out in Pgh. weather
effected them, but my guess is the wolmanized decking shrunk around the
screws.

I know it would be a nightmare to replace the decking. I think one would
need to get a hole saw, cut over the screw down to the joist, lift off
the plank and wack off the screw with a sawsall. Would not be fun on a
600sq. foot deck.

The good news is the deck is near perfect shape after 20 years of
Pittsburgh weather, and looks like it'll cruise for another 20, past my
time of worry:-)

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/7/2011 4:20 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

*snip*

I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.


I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I would
venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the regular drill
will damage the screws much more than the impact driver.

OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on my
list of worries.

Also, since Leon questioned the screw size, I compared it to my chart
again, and it might be a #7 screw head not an 8. I normally don't look
at other than even numbers, and it is very very close to the same size
head on the #8 McFeely screw, and obviously larger than a #6.
Regardless, the body size looks more like a the body on a #6 standard
screw head.

--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/7/2011 11:43 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

I did use an impact driver, screw snapped immediately. The next
screw I soaked with Kano and smacked it a few times with a Phillips
driver and hammer which usually loosens stuck screws, snapped that
one as well. These were stainless, with zero rust even after 20
years. I don't recall snapping any putting them in. Not sure if
being out in Pgh. weather effected them, but my guess is the
wolmanized decking shrunk around the screws.

I seriously doubt any weathering effects on the wood affected the screw. My
experience with stainless on a medium size sailboat was not good. After the
eye on a 3/8" SS eye bolt twisted off easily I switched to bronze. There
are, of course, numerous varities of SS.

I can't vouch for the quality of the SS deck screws I used. I bought
them at the same builder supply outfit I bought all my drywall screws.
I asked for SS deck screws, and thats what they had. I don't recall any
breaking or even stripping the heads going in, but since that was over
20 years ago, and remembering yesterday is gettin iffy, who knows. I
don't think they were exactly cheap but not super expensive like bronze.

I would tell anyone building a deck to think about this before
committing to screws. A box of 1000 bronze 2 1/2" boat screws at
McFeely's is only $1472.30, a bit much for a deck.

On the other hand, I only tried removing two screws that never seated
totally when I built the deck. Every winter when shoveling snow, I
would hit these screws and say, "gotta remember to fix those next
summer" When I bought my impact driver I was looking for things to use
it on, and the deck screws came to mind. After breaking both of them, I
shutter to think of removing the entire deck... I guess there is a
possibility all the other screws would unscrew... yeah, right:-)

--
Jack
You're never too old to learn something stupid.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/7/2011 11:46 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on
my list of worries.

You do realize that the heads on DW and wood screws are totally different
even though they are both "flat", yes?

Yes, bugle heads on dw screws. They counter sink fine with a regular
countersink, not so good on their own.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/11 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:

I drove all of them right down past the
countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
was hot as hell, but didn't snap.


I'm guessing since it's already heat treated, heating up from friction
won't effect it.
Friction heat buildup on an un-heat treated screw will make it prone to
snapping.

ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
decks or cabinets.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/7/11 6:19 AM, m II wrote:
Probably not original Phillips head design anyway.

http://www.instructables.com/id/When...g-Phillipsreg/


Great link... bookmarked.

By the way, I'm still waiting for some evidence to support your
allegations.
Or an apology. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 09:04:24 -0400, Jack Stein
wrote:

On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

I did use an impact driver, screw snapped immediately. The next screw I
soaked with Kano and smacked it a few times with a Phillips driver and
hammer which usually loosens stuck screws, snapped that one as well.
These were stainless, with zero rust even after 20 years. I don't recall
snapping any putting them in. Not sure if being out in Pgh. weather
effected them, but my guess is the wolmanized decking shrunk around the
screws.

No, it's simple Oak Rust in Action, Jack. Let it go!


I know it would be a nightmare to replace the decking. I think one would
need to get a hole saw, cut over the screw down to the joist, lift off
the plank and wack off the screw with a sawsall. Would not be fun on a
600sq. foot deck.

Verily.


The good news is the deck is near perfect shape after 20 years of
Pittsburgh weather, and looks like it'll cruise for another 20, past my
time of worry:-)

Bueno.

I picked up that 4-tool Ryobi combo kit for $129 at the Borg this
morning after it got too hot to continue painting a client's house.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:46:46 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/7/2011 4:20 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in
:

*snip*

I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.


I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I
would venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the
regular drill will damage the screws much more than the impact
driver.

OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on
my list of worries.

You do realize that the heads on DW and wood screws are totally different
even though they are both "flat", yes?

Right, DW screws have bugle heads, curved "flat".

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL


Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, Bill wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Bill




--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

In article , says...

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?

More likely to bugger the head than an impact driver is. And once the
head is buggered things get a lot more difficult.

At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL


Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

In article , says...

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

I've removed stuck screws with a brace-and-bit and my 200+ pounds
leaning on it. An impact driver takes them out more reliably and with
much less effort.

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

I've removed stuck screws with a brace-and-bit and my 200+ pounds
leaning on it. An impact driver takes them out more reliably and with
much less effort.

I believe you, but it appears that wasn't working here.


Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

YES, the screws are STUCK! Friction is at work...gotta overcome that.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 06:56:52 -0400, Bill wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Hey, I didn't mention building a better screwdriver. No cheatin'.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Bill wrote in :

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit
my conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods
and maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able
to add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

YES, the screws are STUCK! Friction is at work...gotta overcome that.


Just use the proper size socket and driver bit. I think it's 1/4", but
I'm never sure with all the "almost exactly but nowhere close"
measurements they've got. Put your pipe on the socket wrench and see if
you can keep the bit on the screw. (I can't.)

Btw, loosening stuck things can go from no movement to extreme movement
very quickly. Stay out of the damage path.

Puckdropper

On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
decks or cabinets.

Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.

I guess a screw expert might come up with a bunch reasons they should be
only used for the intended purpose, but my experience, which is
considerable, is they work fine for most, not all, things wood.

I agree with you on the heat treating of DW screws making them more
brittle, they don't bend like a regular steel screw, but the heads
simply NEVER strip out.

I've been using them (not exclusively of course) for many years, and
don't recall ever snapping one. That's why I did the test. I don't
recall driving any screws into Oak w/o drilling a pilot hole, so I gave
it a shot, and reported what happened. Anyone with an impact driver,
drywall screw and a hunk of Oak can test it themselves. That doesn't
mean they are unsnappable, just that they work good enough that snapping
is not that much of an issue.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com