In article , says...

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

I've removed stuck screws with a brace-and-bit and my 200+ pounds
leaning on it. An impact driver takes them out more reliably and with
much less effort.

I believe you, but it appears that wasn't working here.


Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

YES, the screws are STUCK! Friction is at work...gotta overcome that.

Once you have enough leverage to strip the head or break the shank, more
isn't going to help.

On 7/7/2011 6:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/7/2011 11:43 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

I would tell anyone building a deck to think about this before
committing to screws. A box of 1000 bronze 2 1/2" boat screws at
McFeely's is only $1472.30, a bit much for a deck.

How about $633? That's their price for 1000 #10 x 2 1/2 bronze, flat head,
square drive screws..

I did 2 more searches on McFeely's today and didn't come up with the
price I had yesterday, nor your price today. I got $850/1000 today on a
search for #10 bronze screw, and for 2 1/2" bronze boat screw I got 3
hits, and it didn't even list the other sizes they have, all #12, and
all over $1000? I ain't spending any time on it, just was curious about
cost.

Mcfeely's search engine must be the same one Grainger uses, which is
awesome considering you never get the same hits twice with similar
search criteria...

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/8/2011 9:25 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

Btw, loosening stuck things can go from no movement to extreme movement
very quickly. Stay out of the damage path.

One of the best tools for stuck screws is this type of impact driver:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

I used to use one like this when I was a kid working on cars. You smack
it hard as you can with a hammer and it twists a little with massive
downward force. Next to impossible to strip out a head with it and it
always seemed to work on rusted Phillips head screws when working on old
cars. I guess my brother still has it in his garage. It might work on
my deck screws, I guess I'd give it a shot if I was removing my deck.
My guess is it would break the screw anyway, so it has a good chance of
working.


--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/8/2011 1:16 AM, Bill wrote:

I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Of course I tried that. Also tried smacking a screwdriver with a hammer
which almost always works to loosen a screw in wood. What I didn't try
was an impact driver like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

This works by smacking the driver with a hammer which twists the screw a
tiny bit. They can be life savers when working on old cars with rusted
screws. I'm sure my brother still has one in his garage.
Might work on the deck, not sure.

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:01:47 -0400, Jack Stein
wrote:

On 7/8/2011 9:25 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

Btw, loosening stuck things can go from no movement to extreme movement
very quickly. Stay out of the damage path.

One of the best tools for stuck screws is this type of impact driver:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

I used to use one like this when I was a kid working on cars. You smack
it hard as you can with a hammer and it twists a little with massive
downward force. Next to impossible to strip out a head with it and it
always seemed to work on rusted Phillips head screws when working on old
cars. I guess my brother still has it in his garage. It might work on
my deck screws, I guess I'd give it a shot if I was removing my deck.
My guess is it would break the screw anyway, so it has a good chance of
working.

Here is the equivalent, in much, much more friendly clothes:
http://goo.gl/Dja0e

I still have, but never use, my ancient hand impact screwdriver.

--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

On 7/8/11 8:30 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
decks or cabinets.

Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.


While I agree with this, anytime you use a cabinet screw to hang a
cabinet, they are under shear load.


I guess a screw expert might come up with a bunch reasons they should be
only used for the intended purpose, but my experience, which is
considerable, is they work fine for most, not all, things wood.

I agree with you on the heat treating of DW screws making them more
brittle, they don't bend like a regular steel screw, but the heads
simply NEVER strip out.

I've been using them (not exclusively of course) for many years, and
don't recall ever snapping one. That's why I did the test. I don't
recall driving any screws into Oak w/o drilling a pilot hole, so I gave
it a shot, and reported what happened. Anyone with an impact driver,
drywall screw and a hunk of Oak can test it themselves. That doesn't
mean they are unsnappable, just that they work good enough that snapping
is not that much of an issue.


The other thing I haven't seen taken into consideration in this thread
is that not all drywall screws are the same. In the collection I have in
my shop, gathered over the last 15 or so years, there are probably 6
different designs. From course to fine thread, thick to thin shoulder,
depth of threads, etc, etc.... there are lots of different ones that act
differently from one another.

Some of my older ones have a much more narrow un-threaded shoulder than
others, so it stands to reason that they would be more prone to breaking
in that area.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/8/11 9:13 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/8/2011 1:16 AM, Bill wrote:

I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Of course I tried that. Also tried smacking a screwdriver with a hammer
which almost always works to loosen a screw in wood. What I didn't try
was an impact driver like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

This works by smacking the driver with a hammer which twists the screw a
tiny bit. They can be life savers when working on old cars with rusted
screws. I'm sure my brother still has one in his garage.
Might work on the deck, not sure.

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.


If you can find a bolt extractor small enough, they work really well.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in :

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit
my conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods
and maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able
to add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

YES, the screws are STUCK! Friction is at work...gotta overcome that.


Just use the proper size socket and driver bit. I think it's 1/4", but
I'm never sure with all the "almost exactly but nowhere close"
measurements they've got. Put your pipe on the socket wrench and see if
you can keep the bit on the screw. (I can't.)

The pipe is supposed to be vertical (haven't tried it), but I have used
a manual post-hole digger.



Btw, loosening stuck things can go from no movement to extreme movement
very quickly. Stay out of the damage path.

Puckdropper

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

I've removed stuck screws with a brace-and-bit and my 200+ pounds
leaning on it. An impact driver takes them out more reliably and with
much less effort.

I believe you, but it appears that wasn't working here.


Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Leverage isn't the issue.

YES, the screws are STUCK! Friction is at work...gotta overcome that.

Once you have enough leverage to strip the head or break the shank, more
isn't going to help.

I thought maybe the screws were breaking from too much torque being
applied at once. You an pull a glass of water across a table with a
piece of paper if you don't applied to much torque, use too much torque
and the glass falls over and breaks. As you mentioned, coming up with
the power is not the issue.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 06:56:52 -0400, wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:16:47 -0400, wrote:

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/6/2011 11:54 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 18:29:53 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit


I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Do a test on several hundred and get back to us, eh, Bill?

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad with a suitable handle on your screwdriver?
Can you imagine one 3 or 4 feet long that you can lean into? As Lew
might say: you could loosen them all by lunch, and wouldn't even need to
get your pants dirty!

Today I noticed that my 3/4" schedule 40 black pipe (4' nipple) fit my
conduit bender. At least it seems to fit. With some steel rods and
maybe a bolt through the pipe, I could maybe rig it to hold a
screwdriver on the other end. With suitable plumbing, should be able to
add a handle for enormous leverage.

Hey, I didn't mention building a better screwdriver. No cheatin'.

Let me know if it works!
We can go into business: "Four foot handle for your bit set, and
attitude adjuster, $19.99! Also helps remove casts on your legs or
ankle, works on fish, biting dogs, unwelcome visitors and broken
electronics. Place it into the wheels of that bicyclist on a cell-phone
that comes to close and just look at the expression on his or her face.
The perfect holiday gift!"


--
Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/8/2011 1:16 AM, Bill wrote:

I guess the idea of trying to break them loose by hand is out of the
question, huh?
At least you'd find out just how much it's stuck.. ; ) GL

Of course I tried that. Also tried smacking a screwdriver with a hammer
which almost always works to loosen a screw in wood. What I didn't try
was an impact driver like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

Good luck. I hope you'll share your results!

Bill


This works by smacking the driver with a hammer which twists the screw a
tiny bit. They can be life savers when working on old cars with rusted
screws. I'm sure my brother still has one in his garage.
Might work on the deck, not sure.

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.

On 7/8/2011 10:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 10:01:47 -0400, Jack
wrote:

On 7/8/2011 9:25 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

Btw, loosening stuck things can go from no movement to extreme movement
very quickly. Stay out of the damage path.

One of the best tools for stuck screws is this type of impact driver:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

I used to use one like this when I was a kid working on cars. You smack
it hard as you can with a hammer and it twists a little with massive
downward force. Next to impossible to strip out a head with it and it
always seemed to work on rusted Phillips head screws when working on old
cars. I guess my brother still has it in his garage. It might work on
my deck screws, I guess I'd give it a shot if I was removing my deck.
My guess is it would break the screw anyway, so it has a good chance of
working.

Here is the equivalent, in much, much more friendly clothes:
http://goo.gl/Dja0e

This is not the same as the hand one. The hand one imparts serious
downward impact, which both prevents cam out, and jars the screw loose.
I admit I haven't used the hand one in years, but I have had a few
occasions where I wish I had had it, and perhaps my deck screws might be
one. For sure my impact driver in "friendly clothes" simply broke the
screw in .2 seconds.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/8/2011 12:37 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 7/8/11 8:30 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.

While I agree with this, anytime you use a cabinet screw to hang a
cabinet, they are under shear load.

I don't think they are, but hey, I'm not a scientist or a screw
aficionado.... Well perhaps an aficionado, but not a scientist.

The other thing I haven't seen taken into consideration in this thread
is that not all drywall screws are the same. In the collection I have in
my shop, gathered over the last 15 or so years, there are probably 6
different designs. From course to fine thread, thick to thin shoulder,
depth of threads, etc, etc.... there are lots of different ones that act
differently from one another.

Yes, when I first replied to Leon, I mentioned there are drywall screws,
and there are drywall screws. I've collected a variety as you have,
BUT, all the screws I purchased at the builder supply place that sells
mostly drywall, drywall products, and a bunch if concrete stuff for
builders, have looked and behaved about the same. I guess professional
drywall guys want a screw that is reasonably priced and not going to
strip, break and so on.

Some of my older ones have a much more narrow un-threaded shoulder than
others, so it stands to reason that they would be more prone to breaking
in that area.

You would think so, and apparently that has been some peoples
experience. Screw failure to me has been rare, most notably to my deck
screws, and only when trying to extract them after 20 years. I've never
stripped a DW screw, and they work quite well when used appropriately.
I would not use them to hang a kitchen cabinet, primarily because I
don't have any near big enough for my tastes in cabinet hanging. I
don't like the fine threaded ones either, I like the course ones for all
woodwork.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/8/2011 10:24 PM, Bill wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
What I didn't try
was an impact driver like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/3nk5jya

Good luck. I hope you'll share your results!

Glad to, but since the two offending screws have been broken, then
extracted at great effort and the resulting holes filled and sanded, I
don't plan on trying it just for laughs. If I ever need to remove
another one, I'll give it a shot, and gladly report the results.

This works by smacking the driver with a hammer which twists the screw a
tiny bit. They can be life savers when working on old cars with rusted
screws. I'm sure my brother still has one in his garage.
Might work on the deck, not sure.

Absolutely. And try a quick blip tightening it first before backing it
out. This works with metal-on-metal connections and air impacts, too.




--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com