On 1/23/2011 8:20 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In articlew_ednexNQvGZfaHQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink .com, wrote:

Years ago, they predicted that, by this century, we would all be whizzing
around in flying cars. I didn't believe it. Many can't deal with two axis.
No one in their right mind would think three was do able.

They predicted all kinds of stuff, didn't they? I want to know where the heck
is my personal jetpack. Where's my helicopter car? Where's my robot that does
all the housecleaning for me? Where are the pills I can take that give me all
my nutrition for the day without needing to cook?

Notice, too, how much of the things that *did* happen, they never predicted:
cell phones, personal computers, GPS...

"They" are a bunch of dumbasses, and always have been.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 1/23/2011 9:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Our Workman's Comp carrier is recommending using Saw Stop. I'd not be
surprised if they carried it further in the future and either demanded
they be used or raised the rates. It is a way they can limit their
exposure to claims.

Indeed, they will demand it ... and still raise the rates.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
says...

?
"J. Clarke" wrote

Which is gonna cost you more, the Sawstop or the insurance rate? And
why would it increase due to lack of use of the technology, did table
saws suddenly become more likely to cause an injury because of it?



Our Workman's Comp carrier is recommending using Saw Stop. I'd not be
surprised if they carried it further in the future and either demanded they
be used or raised the rates. It is a way they can limit their exposure to
claims.

If he offered you a _discount_ for installing a Sawstop that would make
sense--you'd be reducing your risk over what it already is. But if he's
saying he's going to increase the rates when there's no increase in
risk, you really oughta file a complaint with the insurance commission.

When we had our annual inspection, our inspector told me about a cabinet
company that moved recently, and on his recommendation bough the Saw Stop
models as replacements for old equipment. In the first month one tripped and
avoided a serious injury. You can bet he's going to push for them all over.

Fine to push for them. Not so fine when you start trying to bully
people into buying them.

On Jan 24, 9:38*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
In article ,
says...

What's with your quoting attribution? Can you tell from the above who
you are responding to? I can't.

Our Workman's Comp carrier is recommending using Saw Stop. *I'd not be
surprised if they carried it further in the future and either demanded they
be used or raised the rates. *It is a way they can limit their exposure to
claims.

If he offered you a _discount_ for installing a Sawstop that would make
sense--you'd be reducing your risk over what it already is. *But if he's
saying he's going to increase the rates when there's no increase in
risk, you really oughta file a complaint with the insurance commission.

If everyone but you stops smoking, your risk of getting cancer from
smoking doesn't go up - everybody else's goes down. That's what
you're arguing, right? Let's all keep smoking?

R

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
?
"J. Clarke" wrote

Which is gonna cost you more, the Sawstop or the insurance rate? And
why would it increase due to lack of use of the technology, did table
saws suddenly become more likely to cause an injury because of it?



Our Workman's Comp carrier is recommending using Saw Stop. I'd not be
surprised if they carried it further in the future and either demanded
they be used or raised the rates. It is a way they can limit their
exposure to claims.

When we had our annual inspection, our inspector told me about a cabinet
company that moved recently, and on his recommendation bough the Saw Stop
models as replacements for old equipment. In the first month one tripped
and avoided a serious injury. You can bet he's going to push for them all
over.

When claims go down, rates tend to follow.
And to answer which would cost more, the SawStop or the Insurance, if you
use the technology and don't visit the hospital when the saw saves you that
trip, the insurance company does not hear about it.
If you use a regular saw w/o the technoligy and end up going to the hospital
the insurance company will hear about it and you will likely pay higher
premiums and as a whole most every one else will also because this is not an
isolated incident and the cost of reattaching a finger or other digit is
going to cost way more than your premium will increase.
Additionally if you end up having a major accident you will pay for the rest
of your life and I am not talking money.

"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote in message
b.com...


"Upscale" wrote

It's a natural act for anybody to rebel against something that attempts
to force them to comply. Most *every* argument I've seen against using
the Sawstop has at one point or another derided Steve Gass from trying to
get the Sawstop technology mandated. And, their hatred of that attempt
has caused them to dismiss the Sawstop as a device they will not use,
despite its safety benefits.

From a pure marketing viewpoint, Mr. Gass was an idiot. He ****ed
everybody off.

I am not so sure of that, he ****ed a lot of people off, that is for sure
but I suspect that a majority of people were not. His situation is not a
unique one, we have a bunch of anti polution stuff mandated into law that we
all have to put up with. That ****es me off but not every one. It is the
American/Capitolist way to try to force an idea onto others. We live here,
we put up with it, but we don't have to like it.



You can argue the safety - human factor all you want. ****ed off people
don't respond well to objects of hatred.

There are the few that dont respond well but it would appear that most are
not ****ed and responding well, SawStop sales are up, most all other brands
are struggeling, and Delta gets pawned off again.



As for safety, I always was a safety freak. I grew up around all kinds of
victims of industrial and logging accidents. It made a permanent
impression on me. A lot of guys I went to high school with are either dead
or injured. For the most part, those guys were NOT safety conscious.

Good to be a safety freak. ;~)

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Lee Michaels" leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote in
message
From a pure marketing viewpoint, Mr. Gass was an idiot. He ****ed
everybody off.

Well, I can't blame him as much as some do. He *did* first try to get his
device into the market through the other manufacturers who themselves
supposedly appeared to collude against his Sawstop. Personally, I don't
think the licensing fee he wanted was outlandish, there have been many
smaller and less technical devices that have come out on the market that
have commanded a greater licensing fee than what Gass wanted. Quite
possibly, the time, money and effort to patent, build and market a
tablesaw with his safety feature was just too much for him to face. Many,
many people including myself might balk at such an endevour. Gass
certainly wouldn't be the first person to try to take the shorter route.
In this case, it turned out to be the longer route.

And in the end, he was forced to face his demons and market the saw
himself. If even *one* of those manufacturers had taken on the licensing
of the Sawstop, they might well be at the top of the tablesaw marketing
pyramid.


Is Sawstop at the top of that pyramid?

Probably not yet but from what I have heard the SawStop out sales most other
brands and many brands are having a hard time staying afloat. And having a
hard time staying a float is certainly not the direct effect of the SawStop
competition in every case, the economy is certainly a strong factor. But
still SawStop seems to be gaining in this depressed market.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:48:44 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:

Making things up Larry? Wher exactly did you read that the
manufacturers
"told him to shove it up his ass". And peronally I thought the
royalties
were perfectly in line. So your point of view is simply that. But
resorting to make up what actually went down to suit your own slant is
pretty rediculious. You are working yourself into a bigger lather the
more
you make things up.

What you thought of the royalties is meaningless, unless you're planning
on
building table saws. The table saw manufacturers *obviously* didn't
agree
with you. The inventor *did* attempt to force the issue.


So that naturally means what Larry thought about the royalties is also
meaningless. I suspect that the manufacturers would have balked at any
reasonable offer.

You suspect? So, it's OK for you to opine but it isn't for me? What's
with this double standard, guy? Or are you making this up?


I did not realise that the statement you made was in you openion or was
something you suspected.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:30:50 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:27:33 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

Plus, he wanted so much in royalties and licensing that ALL of the
manufacturers told him to shove it up his ass. I believe it was after
that happened that he chose to force the issue, to pursue mandatory
use via lobbying. What a jerk.

Making things up Larry? Wher exactly did you read that the manufacturers
"told him to shove it up his ass".

That's my ad-libbed statement for "Each and every one of the
manufacturers decided against accepting any offers of buying licensing
or paying royalties to him." If you ask the reps for those companies,
I'd be willing to bet that they'd have thought those thoughts, whether
or not they actually told him off in those precise words.

I thinking that if those reps are actually still around these days that they
would have a different view on which course they should have taken. That is
my throught. And I would also think that if those manufacturers were like
most that I have worked for that someone submitting a proposal for an
accessory or improvement of their product is not an uncommon occourance.
Basically I could not really see a manufacturer having ill feelings towards
an inventor or other company that is making a proposal. All the major
manufavturers depend on smaller businesses to bring new ideas and products
to the table for possible future consideration. Many get turned down some
do not.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Leon"
wrote:
[...]
"And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw."

So how will you know when your common sense is gone?

Exactly so. Well said, Leon. You hit the nail on the head. When your
common
sense is gone, how will you know -- how *can* you know -- when your common
sense is gone?

My wife and I have an example of that right in our own household. Her
parents,
both in their late 80s, have been living with us for nearly two years now.
Unhappily, my MIL is in the middle stages of Alzheimer's disease (or some
similar progressive dementia), which makes it completely impossible for
her to
drive a car safely -- and also prevents her from realizing that. She can't
see
either (can't even make out the big E on the chart), and she also can't
understand why *that* should stop her from driving.


;~) Ironic isn't it. I think I still have a bit of common sense...
although.... My wife and I moved into an new home 4 weeks ago. My 23 year
old son, his same age friend, and I tried once to move a large sewing
cabinet up stairs. After the first attempt my common sense told me loud and
clear that the cabinet needed to stay down stairs.

Thirty minutes later I had been talked into trying again against my better
judgement. We were half way up the stairs with the cabinet and I was still
not sure we could round the corner once we got up there when one of the
boys suggested that I get up under the cabinet and toss the lifting straps
up each side to the person at the top. My son was carrying the weight of
the cabinet from coming down on top of me. I did not waste much time
hanging around under the cabinet. ;~)

In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
?
"J. Clarke" wrote

Which is gonna cost you more, the Sawstop or the insurance rate? And
why would it increase due to lack of use of the technology, did table
saws suddenly become more likely to cause an injury because of it?



Our Workman's Comp carrier is recommending using Saw Stop. I'd not be
surprised if they carried it further in the future and either demanded
they be used or raised the rates. It is a way they can limit their
exposure to claims.

When we had our annual inspection, our inspector told me about a cabinet
company that moved recently, and on his recommendation bough the Saw Stop
models as replacements for old equipment. In the first month one tripped
and avoided a serious injury. You can bet he's going to push for them all
over.

When claims go down, rates tend to follow.
And to answer which would cost more, the SawStop or the Insurance, if you
use the technology and don't visit the hospital when the saw saves you that
trip, the insurance company does not hear about it.
If you use a regular saw w/o the technoligy and end up going to the hospital
the insurance company will hear about it and you will likely pay higher
premiums and as a whole most every one else will also because this is not an
isolated incident and the cost of reattaching a finger or other digit is
going to cost way more than your premium will increase.
Additionally if you end up having a major accident you will pay for the rest
of your life and I am not talking money.

How many dollars less per year will your insurance rate be if you buy a
Sawstop? 1? 10? 100? 1000?

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:50:32 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:16:48 -0500, Bill wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
In ,
says...

I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts?

That latter is a less obnoxious requirement than airbags IMO.

About a year and a half ago, a car turned in front of me, while the
driver was on a cell phone I think, despite my right of way--and I felt
the airbag knock me right in the jaw! I was happy about it too. She
said she didn't see anyone coming...

So, how loud are those things while you're in the car with one
ex-pand/ploding?

I t-boned a 17 yr old that pulled out in front of me, I was going
about 50.

I was not aware of any sound or impact from the air bag, just having to
rake it out of my face when the action was over.

Totaled both vehicles, kid stayed in the hospital for three weeks, I
picked out another truck and went home, was sore the next day.

I am quite fond of airbags.

basilisk

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:56:47 -0500, "Upscale" wrote:


wrote in message
More leftist claptrap.

Two completely different issues, though even a moron like you should know
that.

There is no "if" about it. Whether it is a working safety device is
completely irrelevant to the argument, though even a moron like you should
know that.

More lies, from a leftist loser.

More garbage from life's loser.

Feel better now? You're a crybaby and you're going to have your whining
temper tantrum no matter what anybody says.

More proof that you're nothing but a loser.

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:23:35 -0800, "Lobby Dosser" wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
ain.local...
In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:30:50 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:27:33 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

Plus, he wanted so much in royalties and licensing that ALL of the
manufacturers told him to shove it up his ass. I believe it was
after
that happened that he chose to force the issue, to pursue mandatory
use via lobbying. What a jerk.

Making things up Larry? Wher exactly did you read that the
manufacturers
"told him to shove it up his ass". And peronally I thought the
royalties
were perfectly in line. So your point of view is simply that. But
resorting to make up what actually went down to suit your own slant is
pretty rediculious. You are working yourself into a bigger lather the
more
you make things up.

What you thought of the royalties is meaningless, unless you're
planning
on
building table saws. The table saw manufacturers *obviously* didn't
agree
with you. The inventor *did* attempt to force the issue.


So that naturally means what Larry thought about the royalties is also
meaningless. I suspect that the manufacturers would have balked at any
reasonable offer. Really and truly why increase the expense of an item
if
you don't have to. No one had to and still no one has to but if they
want
to stay in business they may have to. Now that the SawStop is
succeeding
on its own I doubt that obtaining the technology or license is going to
be
as reasonable as it was when originally offered unless the Whirlwind or
like
product can come up with an equal alternative solution.

But _is_ the Sawstop "succeeding on its own"? The company is not
publicly traded--for all we know they're burning through their venture
capital and will go under when it runs out.



Then folks will own an orphan. I've owned an orphan before. Not a happy
happenstance.

Particularly when one of its "operational" modes is eating itself.

"
So, how loud are those things while you're in the car with one
ex-pand/ploding?

I t-boned a 17 yr old that pulled out in front of me, I was going
about 50.

I did close to the same thing; saw the suv pull out while I was going 60,
but got slowed to perhaps 35 or 40 MPH before impact.

They are fricking LOUD ! ! ! Imagine two or thee 12 ga shotgun shells going
off 2 feet in front of your face, and another couple going off in front of
the passenger's seat.

My ears were ringing like crazy. I got out and checked on the other car,
talked to the first people that stopped and made sure police were on the
way, and the police were there in a few minutes. It was then I walked over
to my car to get something off of the seat, and I noticed the car was still
running. It was the first time in 8 to 10 minutes that my ears were not
ringing so loud that I was prevented from hearing a running engine.

I never felt the bag hit my face or body, because I ride pretty far reclined
and far from the wheel, and always wear seat belts. I saw it coming and
braced on the wheel pretty hard, I guess.
--
Jim in NC

On Jan 24, 5:10*pm, basilisk wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:50:32 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:16:48 -0500, Bill wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
In ,
says...

I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts?

That latter is a less obnoxious requirement than airbags IMO.

About a year and a half ago, a car turned in front of me, while the
driver was on a cell phone I think, despite my right of way--and I felt
the airbag knock me right in the jaw! I was happy about it too. *She
said she didn't see anyone coming...

So, how loud are those things while you're in the car with one
ex-pand/ploding? *

I t-boned a 17 yr old that pulled out in front of me, I was going
about 50.

I was not aware of any sound or impact from the air bag, just having to
rake it out of my face when the action was over.

Totaled both vehicles, kid stayed in the hospital for three weeks, I
picked out another truck and went home, was sore the next day.

I am quite fond of airbags.

basilisk

Unless you're talking about the airbags in the Yugo; you have to blow
those up yourself, a straw hanging from the dash..

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
More leftist claptrap.

Two completely different issues, though even a moron like you should know
that.

There is no "if" about it. Whether it is a working safety device is
completely irrelevant to the argument, though even a moron like you
should
know that.

More lies, from a leftist loser.

More garbage from life's loser.

Feel better now? You're a crybaby and you're going to have your whining
temper tantrum no matter what anybody says.




Sounds like you need to add one to your plonk list.

"Leon" wrote in message
Feel better now? You're a crybaby and you're going to have your whining
temper tantrum no matter what anybody says.

Sounds like you need to add one to your plonk list.

Well, he is right in one respect. If I'm talking to him, I must be a loser.

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:36:01 -0500, "Upscale" wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
Feel better now? You're a crybaby and you're going to have your whining
temper tantrum no matter what anybody says.

Sounds like you need to add one to your plonk list.

Well, he is right in one respect. If I'm talking to him, I must be a loser.


You certainly are a loser, regardless of why.

wrote in message
Well, he is right in one respect. If I'm talking to him, I must be a
loser.

You certainly are a loser, regardless of why.

I doubt you realize that the guy that goes around calling people losers is
really talking about himself. And, I'm not at all surprised that you lack
any shred of humour.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:01:24 -0500, "Upscale" wrote:


wrote in message
Well, he is right in one respect. If I'm talking to him, I must be a
loser.

You certainly are a loser, regardless of why.

I doubt you realize that the guy that goes around calling people losers is
really talking about himself. And, I'm not at all surprised that you lack
any shred of humour.

I don't find losers like you at all funny. Pitiful, certainly. Funny? No.

wrote in message
I don't find losers like you at all funny. Pitiful, certainly. Funny?
No.

Well, it's like I said. I'm talking to you so I must be a loser.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

wrote in message

Well, it's like I said. I'm talking to you so I must be a loser.

Since you keep insisting, I'll agree.

On 1/20/2011 1:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:51:43 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:


At some point, sawstop will do an official fast feed rate demo video or
one from a show will pop up on youtube.


bout a million on Yuotube. Gotta love it. Here is one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9OLIzMa4Oo

Imagine yourself in front of a saw where the floor had not been swept
and there was sawdust on the top of the saw as well as the floor. You
turn on the saw and slip in the sawdust and are falling into the saw
blade. Your right hand slips off the top and your other flails out to
catch yourself. It goes right into the spinning blade at a very fast
rate, about 30 times faster than the demo cut. NOW what happens?
We've only seen feed rates of 1 foot per minute and one inch per
second. What about 80ips, hmm?


Well, ask yourself what would happen to your hand if that happened using
YOUR (non-SawStop) TS.

On 01/26/2011 04:11 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 1/20/2011 1:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:51:43 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote:


At some point, sawstop will do an official fast feed rate demo video or
one from a show will pop up on youtube.


bout a million on Yuotube. Gotta love it. Here is one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9OLIzMa4Oo

Imagine yourself in front of a saw where the floor had not been swept
and there was sawdust on the top of the saw as well as the floor. You
turn on the saw and slip in the sawdust and are falling into the saw
blade. Your right hand slips off the top and your other flails out to
catch yourself. It goes right into the spinning blade at a very fast
rate, about 30 times faster than the demo cut. NOW what happens?
We've only seen feed rates of 1 foot per minute and one inch per
second. What about 80ips, hmm?


Well, ask yourself what would happen to your hand if that happened using
YOUR (non-SawStop) TS.

I need a "hammer stop" for when that sucker is heading for my finger/thumb.

On 1/26/2011 5:36 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

I need a "hammer stop" for when that sucker is heading for my finger/thumb.

Old technology ... part of the orginal patent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...e-p1000557.jpg

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 26, 6:50*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/26/2011 5:36 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

I need a "hammer stop" for when that sucker is heading for my finger/thumb.

Old technology ... part of the orginal patent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...e-p1000557.jpg

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I know he won't move too quickly, but lookout if he kicks your ass.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:50:04 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/26/2011 5:36 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

I need a "hammer stop" for when that sucker is heading for my finger/thumb.

Old technology ... part of the orginal patent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...e-p1000557.jpg

That'd work.


P.S: Jayzuss! Not even Texicans have pointy-toed boots like that!

--
Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come
alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs
is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman