"Leon" wrote

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Max

On Jan 21, 7:12*pm, "CW" wrote:

I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours a
week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.

Driving a car, perhaps?

On the average construction site
you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs just
a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trained
in safe working proceders.

I for one have never been trained on proceders.

All your sanctimonious claptrap is based on the fact you haven't been
injured. Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am
glad to know that there are those out there that are.

Your comment about the IQ of 2X4s and construction workers.... it
simply shows just how far down the totem pole of society you are.
Unneeded, arrogant, pathetically stupid and uninformed.

And I didn't even know that Josepi had a sock puppet!

Robert

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 12:58:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 21, 1:01*pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
available safety equipment.

Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?


Go get 'em Larry!

NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:44:37 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

Versus 117ms for the Whirlwind. And you can both use the blade again
and start the saw back up 1 second after the E-stop. The Sawstop eats
a $120 Woodworker II and a $60 aluminum stop every time. And how many
false stops are happening now? Like when your buddy comes over and
wants to see it work...

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:36:04 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:
Snip


But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

And yet you continue to live and participate in a capitalistic society....

There are limits, you idealist softie, you.

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

wrote in message
...
On Jan 21, 7:12 pm, "CW" wrote:

I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours
a
week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.

Driving a car, perhaps?

About 15 miles in the last year. Miles on my Harley, on the other hand...

On the average construction site
you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs
just
a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trained
in safe working proceders.

I for one have never been trained on proceders.

4x4?

Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am
glad to know that there are those out there that are

..Feel free to bow in my presents

construction workers....Unneeded, arrogant, pathetically stupid and
uninformed.

Unneeded I would have to disagree with but, other than that, you seem to
have a fair grasp of things.

On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:

.Feel free to bow in my presents

Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 1/21/2011 9:23 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

as well as only raising
the blade only until the top of the material was equal to the gullet
of the blade.

While I agree for most instances, IME, a higher blade can actually help
to keep you out of trouble with some types of wood, like reaction wood.

Just another example of where rule of thumb can, and should be, trumped
by experience, which, in the real world, ultimately dictates what is
safe(r) and what isn't.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
says...

On 1/21/11 7:31 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
You're using a lousy push stick that breaks or slips on sawdust, whoosh!
You're feeding stock, your dog jumps on your back because you didn't put
him on a leash and he's not don't playing. (real life scenario... I'm
not working with that guy anymore)

Sure, all of that is possible, just not a likely scenario in a realistic
world. In the past, we've heard from physicians and emergency personal when
it comes to a tablesaw. And almost without exception, those incidents of
digits being chopped off have been when someone was using a saw with the
guard removed. When it comes to slipping and falling, you're much more
likely to fall in front of a bus than to fall or slip at the required angle
to slide one's hand or arm under an installed and properly operating blade
guard.


I don't get it... I mean I get the part about people not using their
guards... but I'm talking about using the guard.

You're ripping a thin board, thinner.... like 2-3" inches wide, taking
off an inch. You're pushing the stock into the blade with your hand
directly in front of the blade, or off to the side an inch... sure
you're plenty far enough in front of the blade... so you think, until
something causes your to slip, your forward momentum causes your hand to
go forward. What kind of angle are we talking? 5 degrees?

That's not far fetched at all.
I've seen guys on TV using the same or worse technique.

Mike, you're saying that this can happen. Sure it can. But statistics
say that it's so rare that it's not something that should drive one's
decisions.

In article ,
says...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"CW" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
On Jan 21, 1:01 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.

In my 35+ years in construction, I have known many like you.

It gives me great pleasure to see them all manner of injuries large
and small that could have been easily prevented if they had used
available safety equipment.

Their injuries, especially the serious ones, are a visible testimony
to their commitment to their pride and sense of righteousness.

Go get 'em Larry!

I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70
hours a week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could
do would make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut. I have never so
much as lost any skin. Your construction anecdote is not even relevent as
far as I'm concerned. Different situation entirely. On the average
construction site you have a large number of, if not the majority of,
guys that have IQs just a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most
never having been trained in safe working proceders.

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.






Wasn't their fault either.

However they knew going in that they were doing something far more
dangerous than using a table saw.

In article om,
says...

"Leon" wrote

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Nobody _made_ them climb into a pure oxygen environment on top of 3000
tons of high explosive all built by the lowest bidder.

"CW" wrote in message
m...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...
"Larry Jaques" wrote

But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.



And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common
sense, agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly
deteriorated that I feel the need for the device I will discontinue
using a table saw.

Max

Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
rule written to prevent the accident that I had.

When you are done with a cut, crank the blade down below table height.

That would be tedious and a waste of time and will introduce a lot of
inconsitancy if cutting 30-50+ dado's in draw bottoms.

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
rule written to prevent the accident that I had.

The saw wasn't turned on??? Then how would the SawStop have helped?

The motor does not have to be running for the SawStop to work. The blade
was still spinning down after the cut. I was reaching over to lift the rip
fence off the table after cutting a dado. Just the coast down speed did the
damage.


I'd be interested in learning about that accident. Seriously. As a
paramedic for several years, I saw a lot of accidents.
The worst accident I've had in the shop (in over forty years) was when I
was cutting a slim piece of plastic off the edge of a 2'X4' piece (for a
recessed fluorescent light)
I was using one of those notorious "razor" knives, utility knife,
whatever. I cut a nasty gash in my left thumb.
But I must confess to having had 3 beers on a hot afternoon. That was
about twenty years ago. Never again.
I perceive of a good many more potentials in the shop for accidents
compared to the likelihood of my contacting the moving blade on my table
saw.
It's a question (to me) of priorities.
I have no doubt that the SawStop is a fine product. It might even end up
being a requirement by OSHA. It would certainly be a recommended item in
a woodworking school.
But considering the odds of me:
1. winning the lottery
2. pushing my finger into a spinning saw blade.
I choose to forego the expenditure.

Max

Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident that I
had. The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade
that is still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

"Leon" wrote


Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident that
I had.


The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade that is
still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

Geez, Leon, I learned *that* lesson around 1948 while in a shop class in
high school.
Safety begins with the operator.

I appreciate the attitude and concern of so many of the posters here but I
still believe in "To each his own".

Thanks,
Max

On Jan 22, 7:37*am, Swingman wrote:
On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:

.Feel free to bow in my presents

Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

LMFAO.. beat me to it.. but better.

On Jan 22, 4:41*am, "CW" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jan 21, 7:12 pm, "CW" wrote:

I have, for the last 25 years, been working with machinery, 40 to 70 hours
a
week, that could rip my arm off or worse. The damage they could do would
make a tablesaw injury seem like a paper cut.

*Driving a car, perhaps?

About 15 miles in the last year. Miles on my Harley, on the other hand...

On the average construction site
you have a large number of, if not the majority of, guys that have IQs
just
a bit higher than a 2x4. All in a hurry and most never having been trained
in safe working proceders.
I for one have never been trained on *proceders.

4x4?

* *Good for you! It is too late for me to be perfect, but I am

glad to know that there are those out there that are

.Feel free to bow in my presents


Please tell me you did that on purpose??

In article , Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:44:37 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

Versus 117ms for the Whirlwind. And you can both use the blade again
and start the saw back up 1 second after the E-stop.

If something slips, your hand can move a *long* way in 117 ms. Remember that
the Whirlwind mechanism won't engage until your hand is *right there* at the
guard -- IOW, when your hand is only inches away from the blade. And moving.
Moving *quickly*.

No thanks.

I agree that Whirlwind is clearly better than no protection at all. But better
than SawStop? No way.

The Sawstop eats
a $120 Woodworker II and a $60 aluminum stop every time.

And of course surgery to reattach amputated fingers costs much less than that.

The cost of triggering the SawStop is irrelevant: if you never get your hand
into a spinning blade, it never triggers, and costs you nothing. If you *do*
get your hand into a spinning blade, the cost of a new blade and brake
cartridge is miniscule compared to the cost of treating the injury you'd
receive without it.

And how many
false stops are happening now? Like when your buddy comes over and
wants to see it work...

Tell your buddy he's welcome to see it work if he ponies up the cost of the
replacements -- and tests with his own finger in the teeth.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:16:34 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


"Max" wrote in message
web.com...
"Leon" wrote

Max, you are already there if you really believe that common sense,
agiaity, and or attention to safety factors will protect you. There will
be new safety rules written in the future for the accidents that are less
common and of which you have not yet heard about. Imagine my suprise 22
years ago when I thought and worked the same way and cut half my left
thumb off and the TS was not turned on. I still have not seen a safety
rule written to prevent the accident that I had.

The saw wasn't turned on??? Then how would the SawStop have helped?

The motor does not have to be running for the SawStop to work. The blade
was still spinning down after the cut. I was reaching over to lift the rip
fence off the table after cutting a dado. Just the coast down speed did the
damage.


I'd be interested in learning about that accident. Seriously. As a
paramedic for several years, I saw a lot of accidents.
The worst accident I've had in the shop (in over forty years) was when I
was cutting a slim piece of plastic off the edge of a 2'X4' piece (for a
recessed fluorescent light)
I was using one of those notorious "razor" knives, utility knife,
whatever. I cut a nasty gash in my left thumb.
But I must confess to having had 3 beers on a hot afternoon. That was
about twenty years ago. Never again.
I perceive of a good many more potentials in the shop for accidents
compared to the likelihood of my contacting the moving blade on my table
saw.
It's a question (to me) of priorities.
I have no doubt that the SawStop is a fine product. It might even end up
being a requirement by OSHA. It would certainly be a recommended item in
a woodworking school.
But considering the odds of me:
1. winning the lottery
2. pushing my finger into a spinning saw blade.
I choose to forego the expenditure.

Max

Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident that I
had. The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade
that is still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

Spin-down can be taken care of a *lot* more cheaply than a SawStop mechanism
(and patent license). SCMSs do it. I'm really surprised table saws don't
have at least dynamic blade braking.

Only the $99 chop and mitre saws can afford to have dynamic braking.


wrote in message
...
Spin-down can be taken care of a *lot* more cheaply than a SawStop mechanism
(and patent license). SCMSs do it. I'm really surprised table saws don't
have at least dynamic blade braking.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:36:04 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:
Snip


But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.


And yet you continue to live and participate in a capitalistic society....

Isn't one of the principles of a capitalistic society that one gets to
*choose* how, and with whom, to spend one's money?

"Max" wrote in message
b.com...
"Leon" wrote


Just keep in mind that the accident that happens is the one that is not
planned for. No one could believe that I could have had the accident
that I had.


The lesson I learned was to never look away from a machine or blade that
is still moving whether you are actually doing a procedure or not.

Geez, Leon, I learned *that* lesson around 1948 while in a shop class in
high school.
Safety begins with the operator.

I appreciate the attitude and concern of so many of the posters here but I
still believe in "To each his own".


The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe that
everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%. You should
always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or have a lapse in
judgement.

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Max



They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with. Same
with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it is, the
fact is that they chose to take the risk.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:36:04 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:
Snip


But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.


And yet you continue to live and participate in a capitalistic society....

Isn't one of the principles of a capitalistic society that one gets to
*choose* how, and with whom, to spend one's money?



LOL,,,, Absolutely but unless you are extremely naive, which I don't think
that Larry is, purchasing gasoline, insurance, and the list goes on, you are
feeding greed. Oh and arrogance.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 15:04:54 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 19:36:04 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 10:03:38 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:
Snip


But even if I had the money for a new Sawstop, I don't think I'd buy
one because of the principle. I don't want to knowingly feed greed and
arrogance, wherever they exist, if I can possibly help it.


And yet you continue to live and participate in a capitalistic society....

Isn't one of the principles of a capitalistic society that one gets to
*choose* how, and with whom, to spend one's money?



LOL,,,, Absolutely but unless you are extremely naive, which I don't think
that Larry is, purchasing gasoline, insurance, and the list goes on, you are
feeding greed. Oh and arrogance.

Oh, I didn't know you had a gasoline powered SawStop.

"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%. You
should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or have a
lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the saw
itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Max



They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with. Same
with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it is, the
fact is that they chose to take the risk.

As I would have in the same situation.

Max

"Leon" wrote

When you don't prescribe to the letter
you take risk. When you take risks you open up to the chance of an
accident. You have to weigh the risk and be your own judge.


Precisely.

Max

On 01/22/2011 04:14 PM, Max wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

Those early Apollo crew members that were burned up in their capsule
during testing,,,I think they were pretty well educated and trained.

Do you think it was their fault?

Max



They chose to take the risk. They know what they were dealing with.
Same with the shuttle crews, it really does not matter whose fault it
is, the fact is that they chose to take the risk.

As I would have in the same situation.

Max


I'd give my left nut (it ain't doing me any good anyway) for a ride into
space.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/22/2011 3:41 AM, CW wrote:

.Feel free to bow in my presents

Christmas or birthday? As long as it's not socks or underwear ...

Picky, picky. I was on my 6th beer when I wrote that.

On Jan 22, 12:52 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?

Go get 'em Larry!

Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.

NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jan 22, 12:52 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?

Go get 'em Larry!

Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.

NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

Robert



Sounds reasonable to me, Robert.

Max

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:52:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I didn't mean for that post to be sneering (except at the greedy
bastid) or macho, Naily.


I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

Yes, you were lucky. Glad they could save it. Eyesight is precious.


And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

I got lucky last year when I was trying to notch a tubasix on the new
12" CMS. I thought it would rip a 3" section without trouble. One
second later, the 40" piece had jammed itself into the guts of the
machine and broken off the laser mount. It took about 5 minutes for me
to realize just how luck I had been. I might have lost most of my
left hand to it in the same split second. I'll never try that again.
It was late, I was tired, and I wanted to use a shortcut. It might
have worked on the old Delta 10" but it didn't on the HF 12" with the
new blade. I'm glad I wasn't hanging onto the board any tighter.


Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.

Ditto here, but the antics of the Sawstop guy just got under my skin.
I don't want one of his products even if it is safer. I'll settle for
the next best, excess ducats allowing.


NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I guess I read something into your post, then. Thanks.


I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

g

--
Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air...
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson

On Jan 22, 7:52*pm, "
wrote:


I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.


LOL.

Actual convo:

him: "Did you just insult me?"

me: "Did you think I insulted you?"

him: "I'm not sure."

me: "If I insulted you, there would be no doubt, you moron!"

Two things to retort on that.

1) Well put!
2) It can't happen to me.


wrote in message
...
Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.
Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

Robert

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
doubt you all in that percentile.

wrote in message
...
On Jan 22, 12:52 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?

Go get 'em Larry!

Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.

NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

Robert

Those that have never had a serious injury will never understand until it
happens, unfortunately it is that plain and simple.

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote
When you don't prescribe to the letter you take risk. When you take
risks you open up to the chance of an accident. You have to weigh the
risk and be your own judge.

Precisely.

Max



Having hashed through this back and forth, now you agree. But the question
still nags concerning your attitude towards when to quit working with
woodworking machines. Will you quit when you think you are not capable of
working safely or after you have an accident and then realize you are no
longer capable of working safely?

"And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw."


So how will you know when your common sense is gone? Seems to me common
sence would indicate that you and I both are imperfect and that neither of
us is prepaired for each and every possible accident that might happen in
the future. Commen sense tells me that I am imperfect, I can make a
mistake, and that I may not know that I am no longer capable untill I do
something that may lead to an accident.

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to
an accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
I doubt you all in that percentile.

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip to
the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and crosses
the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are shorter of
that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a spinning saw
blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to manage those
risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having an accident with
my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop) The cost/benefit
ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have already stated what costs
would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

Leon wrote:

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

Yes, but there are all kinds of mishaps that can lead to all kinds of
accidents. SawStop helps prevent basically one sort.

Some people mentioned accidents with a TS blade even though the blade
wasn't moving. Are these the result of reaching across the blade or
falling on it in some way? I honestly never considered those possibilities.

The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features. BTW, the "industrial model" (30" wide
table) is $4500, and the "professional model" (w/27" table) is closer to
$2900. Mobile bases are an extra $200, or $300 for the "hydraulic"
version. Salesman was not aware of any differences between the
industrial and professional models beyond the size of the table and the
location of the blade adjustment cranks. At this juncture, I am not
seriously considering spending $4500 on a TS anyway. One needs to draw
the line somewhere...lol.

Bill



Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
doubt you all in that percentile.

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting
businesses for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25
years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point
*I'm* trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the
extremely unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF*
the expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time
was on the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided*
that the saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that
it doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead
to an accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
I doubt you all in that percentile.

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

;~) I understand your position on the matter and agree with your logic. I
must have misunderstood you from the beginning and , well you know...

I incorrecetly compared you to a few that I have seen in the past in this
group that seriousely believed that they were incapable of having an
accident because they knew all the safety rules and followed them with out
deviation and that they had no reason to believe that that situation would
ever change.