Leon wrote:
wrote in message
eb.com...
wrote
When you don't prescribe to the letter you take risk. When you take
risks you open up to the chance of an accident. You have to weigh the
risk and be your own judge.

Precisely.

Max



Having hashed through this back and forth, now you agree. But the question
still nags concerning your attitude towards when to quit working with
woodworking machines. Will you quit when you think you are not capable of
working safely or after you have an accident and then realize you are no
longer capable of working safely?

"And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw."


So how will you know when your common sense is gone? Seems to me common
sence would indicate that you and I both are imperfect and that neither of
us is prepaired for each and every possible accident that might happen in
the future. Commen sense tells me that I am imperfect, I can make a
mistake, and that I may not know that I am no longer capable untill I do
something that may lead to an accident.


Life is a gamble; you take your chances and you place your bets. You
could spend your whole life worry about less and less and less until
there was nothing left! Or you can allow it a little more interesting.
Naw, we don't need to bring any insect repellent to Mosquito Lake. : )

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

Yes, but there are all kinds of mishaps that can lead to all kinds of
accidents. SawStop helps prevent basically one sort.

Some people mentioned accidents with a TS blade even though the blade
wasn't moving. Are these the result of reaching across the blade or
falling on it in some way? I honestly never considered those
possibilities.

LOL,,, If not careful a new Forrest WWII can cut you while you are simply
trying to mount it for the first time. Spend enough time in the shop and
you will learn a way to cut your self with a stationary blade when you least
expect it. ;~) Stepping out into the shop is a risk.



The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features. BTW, the "industrial model" (30" wide
table) is $4500, and the "professional model" (w/27" table) is closer to
$2900.



Mobile bases are an extra $200, or $300 for the "hydraulic"
version. Salesman was not aware of any differences between the industrial
and professional models beyond the size of the table and the location of
the blade adjustment cranks. At this juncture, I am not seriously
considering spending $4500 on a TS anyway. One needs to draw the line
somewhere...lol.


I would think there would be more to it than that, perhaps a comparison of
the trunions.

Max wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually
believe that everything that you know is going to guarantee your
safety 100%. You should always realize that you are human and can
make a mistake or have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting
businesses for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25
years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point
*I'm* trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human
nature. Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average.
Some stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an
excessive expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the
extremely unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF*
the expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair
time was on the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted.
*Provided* that the saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that
it doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you
buy any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person
thinks that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that
could lead to an accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife
or any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000, but I doubt you all in that percentile.

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

I applaud the quality of your summary, whether the cost/benefit ratio
makes sense for me or not. Of course, I think there is something in
people which perhaps colors their perceptions of their chances of
getting hurt--especially with a few thousand dollars on the line. I like
to think that for the sake of a few thousand dollars I'm willing to be
extra careful, but I know I'm not perfect. I also expect I'm not going
to be spending hundreds of hours at my TS. Maybe there will soon be
some additional choices in the marketplace--they can't be too far off.

Bill

wrote in message
...
On Jan 22, 12:52 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?

Go get 'em Larry!

Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote
You can always find an exception to the rule; however, having the
minimum amount of the blade exposed while cutting is well within the
90/10 safety rule, IMHO.

I teach that running with the blade higher than it needs to be is the most
preventable way to reduce the severity of severe injury.

If you run your hand across the blade and do not hit the bone, there is a
much greater chance that your finger and its function can be saved.
--
Jim in NC

"Leon" wrote

The problem with lowering the blade at every opportunity is that you will
soon tire of that practice after doing it 3 or 4 hundred times during a
project and it certainly will introduce inconsistencies when cutting to a
specific depth.

Simply put, lowering the blade at every opportunity can increase safety
but it is not practicle as production can grind to a halt if you observe
and take every precaution to the letter. When you don't prescribe to the
letter you take risk. When you take risks you open up to the chance of an
accident. You have to weigh the risk and be your own judge.

It is practice with such negligible benefits, I don't see a need to do it.
--
Jim in NC

In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
"safe".

The question is what constitutes an acceptable risk. You seem to be
able to tolerate less risk in your life than most people.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but I
doubt you all in that percentile.

And having a Sawstop doesn't guarantee that he won't have an accident.
Might not cut his hand off, but that doesn't save him from tripping and
busting his skull on the table edge.

If you aren't trying to sell anything then quit acting like people who
don't spend every cent they have buying safety equipment are doing
wrong.

In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

wrote in message
...
On Jan 22, 12:52 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Because I don't buy into the greed I'm proud and righteous? If I
instead invest in the Whirlwind safety system am I still proud and
righteous?

Go get 'em Larry!

Perhaps I was obtuse.

I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU DO. I want to reinforce your right to do what
you want, and if you get banged up along the way and proudly carry a
few extra scars or bodily damage due to your activities, wear them
proudly!

READ CAREFULLY, Larry. I am not saying anyone should do something
they don't want to do. Drink lye. Weld without a face shield. Spray
lacquer without a mask. Open bottles with your teeth. I simply DO
NOT CARE. That was my point in response to your post. I cannot
encourage you enough to act exactly as you want to.

Since no one is making anyone use the Sawstop, there is no enforcement
bureau or agency, there is no governmental requirement, and there are
PLENTY of alternatives, I am personally not concerned about the
corporate greed angle.

I haven't felt the sting of an FBI (or any other agency) effort to
make me use a wood sawing product that was developed by a greedy
corporation in conjunction with a corrupt government.

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

The only thing I didn't like about the tone of the posts like yours is
that some feel like the need to sneer at those who prefer to work more
safely. After all, you survived all these years doing things exactly
the way you do, what's the problem with all the pussies? The
underlying message of the more manly man, the stud in charge of his
own affairs doesn't have accidents is baloney.

I have seen too many accidents where safety equipment mitigated the
damage. I have seen too many accidents where lack of it did just the
opposite. I have done damage to myself, personally, from not using
available safety devices. I was a many MF, though and didn't think I
needed to be told what to do. I was pretty sure my civil rights had
been violated, and that maybe I was a victim of overall weenie boy
bean counters.

So I got hurt. All I had to do was put on a $3 pair of goggles....

Thankfully, modern technology saved my eye and eyesight. Learned a
great deal about my personal pride and my thoughts of independence,
manliness, and other things while waiting to see if my eyesight could
be restored. Wearing an eyepatch served as a constant reminder to my
own hard headed stupidity.

And reading these posts, I always think of the old saying, "they call
them accidents for a reason". Working too late in the shop to get a
project out to keep from being sued (or not paid), working long hours
to keep the lights on.

Many safety devices simply do not apply to the folks in this group.
They are for the guys that have an occasional lapse in judgement, the
guy that miscalculates, someone that has been working at the wheel too
long that day, someone that might be sick but still has to work their
8 - 10 hours, someone that is using a tool correctly but in a
hazardous fashion, someone that encounters an unusual and unexpected
result when performing a routine operation, someone using tools in
inclement weather or conditions, etc., etc.

Anyone that faces those conditions on a fairly regular basis usually
has a great appreciation for all the help they can get.

Throw me in with those guys.

NOW who has righteousness, Naily? Your and Leon's wishing someone
harm just doesn't sit right with me. Enjoy your karma, guys.

Now don't start that. No where, no way did I or do I wish you harm.
I respect your right to act and conduct yourself as you want, even if
it seems counter intuitive to me.

I am plain spoken enough that if I wished you harm I am sure I could
find a way to express myself in a way that would leave you with no
doubt.

Robert

Those that have never had a serious injury will never understand until it
happens, unfortunately it is that plain and simple.

And if they go through their whole lives and it never happens, then
what?

You mean "unless it happens".

You need to learn that the only attitude that preaching at people
changes is reduction of their desire to share your company.

In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote
When you don't prescribe to the letter you take risk. When you take
risks you open up to the chance of an accident. You have to weigh the
risk and be your own judge.

Precisely.

Max



Having hashed through this back and forth, now you agree. But the question
still nags concerning your attitude towards when to quit working with
woodworking machines. Will you quit when you think you are not capable of
working safely or after you have an accident and then realize you are no
longer capable of working safely?

"When", "until", you take it as invevitable that everyone who lacks a
Sawstop is going to cut his hand off with a table saw. Earth to Leon,
millions of woodworkers make it through their entire lives without
cutting their hands off with a table saw.

"And *I* wouldn't buy one because when the time comes that my common sense,
agility, and attention to safety factors are so badly deteriorated that I
feel the need for the device I will discontinue using a table saw."


So how will you know when your common sense is gone? Seems to me common
sence would indicate that you and I both are imperfect and that neither of
us is prepaired for each and every possible accident that might happen in
the future. Commen sense tells me that I am imperfect, I can make a
mistake, and that I may not know that I am no longer capable untill I do
something that may lead to an accident.

Do you walk down the street wearing armored clothing and a crash helmet
because of an accident that might occur? If not, why not?

On 1/22/2011 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:

The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features.

NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you,
regardless (and particularly in woodworking/hobby stores) ... the ten
percent of the time they may be even close to right will not make up for
the 99% they are not.

Always consider motive ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article om,
says...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote

The point I am trying to make is that you should never actually believe
that everything that you know is going to guarantee your safety 100%.
You should always realize that you are human and can make a mistake or
have a lapse in judgement.

I spent 33 years in the FD.
I retired and opened a building inspection business inspecting businesses
for insurance companies. I operated that business for 25 years.
I have a bit of a notion about risk management. (which is the point *I'm*
trying to make)
Every individual has a different level of risk........it's human nature.
Surely you've heard the expression, "He/she is accident prone".
It's actually true. Some people cut themselves more than average. Some
stumble and fall. Some run into things,.... ad infinitum.
In my judgment and in my case only, I consider the SawStop an excessive
expense. For me.
I don't think you can imagine my disgust with the device in the extremely
unlikely event that it "triggered" on a "false" event.
I would be tempted to use a cutting torch on the whole machine. *IF* the
expense of repairs was minimal (less than $50) and the repair time was on
the order of 1/2 hour or less, I *might* be tempted. *Provided* that the
saw itself was, in my opinion, worth the investment.
I don't mean to denigrate the saw or the device. I'm just saying that it
doesn't fit *my* needs.
Anyone else must make their own decision.

Max

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
any safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks
that he knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to
an accident.

Now if you have never ever had an accident or cut yourself with a nife or
any similar object I'd say that you were 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000, but
I doubt you all in that percentile.

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip to
the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and crosses
the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are shorter of
that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a spinning saw
blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to manage those
risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having an accident with
my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop) The cost/benefit
ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have already stated what costs
would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Saw an interesting statistic. Most fatal amputations occur in
automobile accidents.

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

No actually the inventor was lobbying for TS's to have the technology not
that you must buy a TS with that technology. You can choose to use other
than a TS. A much less expensive Festool track saw would be a very
reasonable alternative, all things being equal considering quality of cut.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote

The problem with lowering the blade at every opportunity is that you will
soon tire of that practice after doing it 3 or 4 hundred times during a
project and it certainly will introduce inconsistencies when cutting to a
specific depth.

Simply put, lowering the blade at every opportunity can increase safety
but it is not practicle as production can grind to a halt if you observe
and take every precaution to the letter. When you don't prescribe to the
letter you take risk. When you take risks you open up to the chance of
an accident. You have to weigh the risk and be your own judge.

It is practice with such negligible benefits, I don't see a need to do it.
--
Jim in NC

Nor do I, I lower the blade to protect the blade.

I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts? Somewhere a line is crossed. Though it is a
line that moves with the attititudes of society at any given time, like
the change in acceptance of smoking over the last 30 years or so.

--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article , lcb11211
@swbell.dotnet says...

"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

No actually the inventor was lobbying for TS's to have the technology not
that you must buy a TS with that technology. You can choose to use other
than a TS. A much less expensive Festool track saw would be a very
reasonable alternative, all things being equal considering quality of
cut.

Leon, have you taken leave of your senses?

In article ,
says...

I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts?

That latter is a less obnoxious requirement than airbags IMO.

Somewhere a line is crossed. Though it is a
line that moves with the attititudes of society at any given time, like
the change in acceptance of smoking over the last 30 years or so.

?
"J. Clarke" wrote

Saw an interesting statistic. Most fatal amputations occur in
automobile accidents.


Holy Crap! I'm taking the table saw out of the back seat.

On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/22/2011 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:

The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features.

NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you, regardless
(and particularly in woodworking/hobby stores) ... the ten percent of the time
they may be even close to right will not make up for the 99% they are not.

Always consider motive ...

Whenever I take an interest in some field of endeavor, I try to learn as much
as I can about it, and until I do, I don't open my mouth and claim to be any
sort of expert. As a woodworker and a musician (ok, a DRUMMER) with several
decades of experience under my belt, I do know a thing or two but I still don't
claim to be an expert. Because of those interests, Woodcraft and Guitar Center
are two retail stores where I can sometimes be found browsing the merchandise.
It never ceases to amaze me how simply being an employee at one of those
places automatically makes you a genius, and I can't count the number of times
I've been automatically treated as a rank amateur by some idiot salesman who
thinks he knows everything. I just love putting people like that in their
place. :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Leon" wrote

"Max wrote
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose
to manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

;~) I understand your position on the matter and agree with your logic.
I must have misunderstood you from the beginning and , well you know...

I incorrecetly compared you to a few that I have seen in the past in this
group that seriousely believed that they were incapable of having an
accident because they knew all the safety rules and followed them with out
deviation and that they had no reason to believe that that situation would
ever change.


I agree completely. One must recognize the potential for disaster in order
to avoid..........or mitigate.....it. G

Max

"Bill" wrote:

Max wrote

I hear you, Leon. I'm not sure you're hearing *me*.
I cannot avoid *all* unfortunate circumstances. What if on my next trip
to the lumber yard someone in the oncoming traffic has a blowout and
crosses the line and hits me head-on? I might suggest that the odds are
shorter of that happening than the odds of me sticking my hand into a
spinning saw blade. It's all about risk management. You choose how to
manage those risks you recognize. I recognize the possibility of having
an accident with my table saw (and a myriad of other risks in my shop)
The cost/benefit ratio of the SawStop does not appeal to me. I have
already stated what costs would alter the ratio.
Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. I recognize that I am *not* immune. I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Max

I applaud the quality of your summary, whether the cost/benefit ratio
makes sense for me or not.

Of course, I think there is something in
people which perhaps colors their perceptions of their chances of
getting hurt--especially with a few thousand dollars on the line.

Good point. A proper attitude is essential.


I like
to think that for the sake of a few thousand dollars I'm willing to be
extra careful, but I know I'm not perfect. I also expect I'm not going
to be spending hundreds of hours at my TS. Maybe there will soon be
some additional choices in the marketplace--they can't be too far off.

Bill

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:27:33 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

Plus, he wanted so much in royalties and licensing that ALL of the
manufacturers told him to shove it up his ass. I believe it was after
that happened that he chose to force the issue, to pursue mandatory
use via lobbying. What a jerk.

If he thought it was so important to life and limb, why didn't he just
donate the idea to humanity, hmm? (HINT: greed and altruism are
mutually exclusive.)

--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:44:38 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Lew Hodgett" wrote
You can always find an exception to the rule; however, having the
minimum amount of the blade exposed while cutting is well within the
90/10 safety rule, IMHO.

I teach that running with the blade higher than it needs to be is the most
preventable way to reduce the severity of severe injury.

I think you teach "NOT running it higher", oui?


If you run your hand across the blade and do not hit the bone, there is a
much greater chance that your finger and its function can be saved.

I understand that the bones fracture and are hard as hell to save.
It sure pays to be careful.

--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams

On 1/22/2011 10:40 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , Larry wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:44:37 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

Versus 117ms for the Whirlwind. And you can both use the blade again
and start the saw back up 1 second after the E-stop.

If something slips, your hand can move a *long* way in 117 ms. Remember that
the Whirlwind mechanism won't engage until your hand is *right there* at the
guard -- IOW, when your hand is only inches away from the blade. And moving.
Moving *quickly*.

No thanks.

I agree that Whirlwind is clearly better than no protection at all. But better
than SawStop? No way.

If the Whirlwind ever comes to market, who's to say it couldn't also be
installed on a SawStop? Breach the Whirlwind's safety zone and the saw begins
the less drastic one-second shutdown, without damage to the hardware; touch the
blade and BOOM. Best of both worlds.

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:26:36 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/22/2011 11:13 PM, Bill wrote:

The salesman at Woodcraft say that the Sawstop is better than the Unisaw
even without the safety features.

NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you,
regardless (and particularly in woodworking/hobby stores) ... the ten
percent of the time they may be even close to right will not make up for
the 99% they are not.

Would those nice people do that?


Always consider motive ...

Y'mean the -extra- $500 commission he makes on 1 Sawstop sale? (WAG)

--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:25:09 -0600, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 1/22/2011 10:40 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , Larry wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:44:37 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

Versus 117ms for the Whirlwind. And you can both use the blade again
and start the saw back up 1 second after the E-stop.

If something slips, your hand can move a *long* way in 117 ms. Remember that
the Whirlwind mechanism won't engage until your hand is *right there* at the
guard -- IOW, when your hand is only inches away from the blade. And moving.
Moving *quickly*.

No thanks.

I agree that Whirlwind is clearly better than no protection at all. But better
than SawStop? No way.

If the Whirlwind ever comes to market, who's to say it couldn't also be

I hope it does.


installed on a SawStop? Breach the Whirlwind's safety zone and the saw begins
the less drastic one-second shutdown, without damage to the hardware; touch the
blade and BOOM. Best of both worlds.

There ya go, Steve! And it only costs $2,000 over the normal cost of
a generic cabinet saw, too! They come with free tinfoil hats, too.

P.S: The tinfoil hats come with rubber holddowns so the wind doesn't
accidentally blow them off. Safety first!


--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams

On 1/23/2011 10:40 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:25:09 -0600, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 1/22/2011 10:40 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , Larry wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:44:37 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:09 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

SawStop reacts in, what? 3 ms?

They claim 5.

Versus 117ms for the Whirlwind. And you can both use the blade again
and start the saw back up 1 second after the E-stop.

If something slips, your hand can move a *long* way in 117 ms. Remember that
the Whirlwind mechanism won't engage until your hand is *right there* at the
guard -- IOW, when your hand is only inches away from the blade. And moving.
Moving *quickly*.

No thanks.

I agree that Whirlwind is clearly better than no protection at all. But better
than SawStop? No way.

If the Whirlwind ever comes to market, who's to say it couldn't also be

I hope it does.


installed on a SawStop? Breach the Whirlwind's safety zone and the saw begins
the less drastic one-second shutdown, without damage to the hardware; touch the
blade and BOOM. Best of both worlds.

There ya go, Steve! And it only costs $2,000 over the normal cost of
a generic cabinet saw, too! They come with free tinfoil hats, too.

P.S: The tinfoil hats come with rubber holddowns so the wind doesn't
accidentally blow them off. Safety first!

Hey, I never said *I* would buy one. :-) People keep arguing the merits of
one versus the other without ever considering the possibility of them both
being available, so I just thought I'd throw it out there.

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Jan 23, 9:26*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message

Let me repeat:
I recognize the hazards. *I recognize that I am *not* immune. *I choose to
manage my risk differently than you do.
But, again, I do appreciate your advice and apparent concern.

Saw an interesting statistic. *Most fatal amputations occur in
automobile accidents.

I saw a statistic that people that point out statistics in totally
unrelated areas are arguing emotionally.

The fact that you feel a need to respond to someone saying in a kindly
way that they manage their risks differently means you are not
handling those emotions at all well.

R

On 1/23/2011 10:06 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:


NEVER, repeat, NEVER put faith in what _any_ salesman tells you,

Always consider motive ...

Whenever I take an interest in some field of endeavor, I try to learn as
much as I can about it, and until I do, I don't open my mouth and claim
to be any sort of expert. As a woodworker and a musician (ok, a DRUMMER)
with several decades of experience under my belt, I do know a thing or
two but I still don't claim to be an expert. Because of those interests,
Woodcraft and Guitar Center are two retail stores where I can sometimes
be found browsing the merchandise. It never ceases to amaze me how
simply being an employee at one of those places automatically makes you
a genius, and I can't count the number of times I've been automatically
treated as a rank amateur by some idiot salesman who thinks he knows
everything. I just love putting people like that in their place. :-)

In custom home building/remodeling, when the client takes it upon
themselves to go into a flooring store, a tile store, a window store, a
cabinet accessory store, an appliance store, a ... ad infinitum, you end
up spending half your time convincing clients that what they were told
by a salesperson, in order to get a sale, is not even close to reality,
as in:

"Sure, that $800 stove vent liner will work just fine above your new
$7,000 stove. No, you don't even need a vent hood, just have your
builder install it in a cabinet, no problem!"

Yeah, right ... first 13 photo's is how that works:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...JgYOq gKvOVw#

And perhaps worse ... when they _are_ the salesman themselves, as in the
situation when they see something on the internet that:

"... will work so well under that bath vanity that I ordered it!"

Nuff said ...



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 23, 9:17*am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
lcb11211@swbell.

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy any
safety equipment. *I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
"safe".

I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
dismissing anyone else's rationale.

You seem to be the only one that has come to the conclusion that
_anyone_ feels a SawStop is a). a "gadget" and b). supposedly
infallible and foolproof. Nobody at any time in this thread or any
other thread on this topic has said it "makes then safe." It makes
them safer - no quotes needed.

You may have noticed that big red paddle switch down by your knee on
the TS - does that make you "safe" or "safer"? Are they a bad idea in
your opinion? How about GFIs? Eye protection? Condoms? Jails?

Incremental improvements in safety add up.

The question is what constitutes an acceptable risk. *You seem to be
able to tolerate less risk in your life than most people.

Most people? You've obviously polled a large number of people to come
to that conclusion, or conducted extensive research to back up what is
otherwise just another guy with a keyboard's opinion. So, please
provide your vetted reference material or at least acknowledge that
many people opt out of your "most people". The acknowledgment is
really not necessary as it's abundantly clear you have no clue what
most people's risk tolerances are, the methods they use to evaluate
them, etc., etc.

You also - surprise! - conflate risk and cost. The cost of a SawStop
or any other safety item is independent of the risk, right? If the
cost of the SawStop, or other such technology, was right in line with
the cost of a competing quality TS without that technology, or at
least close to it (yes, close is a relative term, but deal with it),
do you think that would change how many people opted for the safer
technology? The risk of having an accident hasn't changed, just the
price.

I obviously do not care what you do in your own shop, and you should
not care what I do in mine. If you don't like the progress in
technology, you are free to use your 1940's TS, drive your 1964
Rambler and post from your Commodore 64 through your 14.4K modem. No
one will force you to sell them.

If you must argue emotionally, don't be obstreperous about it and at
least try to have a sense of humor. Thanks.

R

J. Clarke wrote:
In ,
says...

I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts?

That latter is a less obnoxious requirement than airbags IMO.

About a year and a half ago, a car turned in front of me, while the
driver was on a cell phone I think, despite my right of way--and I felt
the airbag knock me right in the jaw! I was happy about it too. She
said she didn't see anyone coming...



Somewhere a line is crossed. Though it is a
line that moves with the attititudes of society at any given time, like
the change in acceptance of smoking over the last 30 years or so.

On 1/22/11 8:36 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In ,
says...

On 1/21/11 7:31 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
You're using a lousy push stick that breaks or slips on sawdust, whoosh!
You're feeding stock, your dog jumps on your back because you didn't put
him on a leash and he's not don't playing. (real life scenario... I'm
not working with that guy anymore)

Sure, all of that is possible, just not a likely scenario in a realistic
world. In the past, we've heard from physicians and emergency personal when
it comes to a tablesaw. And almost without exception, those incidents of
digits being chopped off have been when someone was using a saw with the
guard removed. When it comes to slipping and falling, you're much more
likely to fall in front of a bus than to fall or slip at the required angle
to slide one's hand or arm under an installed and properly operating blade
guard.


I don't get it... I mean I get the part about people not using their
guards... but I'm talking about using the guard.

You're ripping a thin board, thinner.... like 2-3" inches wide, taking
off an inch. You're pushing the stock into the blade with your hand
directly in front of the blade, or off to the side an inch... sure
you're plenty far enough in front of the blade... so you think, until
something causes your to slip, your forward momentum causes your hand to
go forward. What kind of angle are we talking? 5 degrees?

That's not far fetched at all.
I've seen guys on TV using the same or worse technique.

Mike, you're saying that this can happen. Sure it can. But statistics
say that it's so rare that it's not something that should drive one's
decisions.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is what happens to most guys
who are trying to be safe and still get hurt. The guy who never even
pretend to try to be safe are the ones who you just have to say, fu@&
it, you don't get to keep all your fingers.

Surly in all the saw accident statistics, there are incidents in which
guys had all the safety procedures in check and still got hurt. How so,
then, if not from their hand entering under the saw guard?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Leon" wrote:

So how will you know when your common sense is gone? Seems to me common
sence would indicate that you and I both are imperfect and that neither of
us is prepaired for each and every possible accident that might happen in
the future. Commen sense tells me that I am imperfect, I can make a
mistake, and that I may not know that I am no longer capable untill I do
something that may lead to an accident.

I have, over the years, accumulated some bit of knowledge of the function of
the human mind. My minor in college was psychology and my interest in the
subject has continued ever since. I have read all of Steven Pinker's tomes
as well as those of several other authors whose expertise on the subject
attracted my attention. As I have approached my more mature years it has
occurred to me that it would be wise to study the effects of aging. As
such, I have acquired some notion of the tribulations for which I felt wise
to prepare. I do not approach the afflictions of aging blindly.
You are obviously possessed of some of the problems that age will cause or
you wouldn't have expressed your concern in the matter.
Self awareness can be a valuable asset in addressing potential pitfalls. I
like to believe that I am somewhat "self-aware".
In addition, I have a son who visits my shop regularly. He has no
reservations about offering constructive criticism. G
I already have plans for the day I will sell or otherwise dispose of my shop
equipment and undertake other activities that interest me.
My other hobbies include photography, RV travel, reading and writing.
Your concern and advice is, as always, appreciated.

Max

In article ,
says...

On 1/22/11 8:36 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In ,
says...

On 1/21/11 7:31 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
You're using a lousy push stick that breaks or slips on sawdust, whoosh!
You're feeding stock, your dog jumps on your back because you didn't put
him on a leash and he's not don't playing. (real life scenario... I'm
not working with that guy anymore)

Sure, all of that is possible, just not a likely scenario in a realistic
world. In the past, we've heard from physicians and emergency personal when
it comes to a tablesaw. And almost without exception, those incidents of
digits being chopped off have been when someone was using a saw with the
guard removed. When it comes to slipping and falling, you're much more
likely to fall in front of a bus than to fall or slip at the required angle
to slide one's hand or arm under an installed and properly operating blade
guard.


I don't get it... I mean I get the part about people not using their
guards... but I'm talking about using the guard.

You're ripping a thin board, thinner.... like 2-3" inches wide, taking
off an inch. You're pushing the stock into the blade with your hand
directly in front of the blade, or off to the side an inch... sure
you're plenty far enough in front of the blade... so you think, until
something causes your to slip, your forward momentum causes your hand to
go forward. What kind of angle are we talking? 5 degrees?

That's not far fetched at all.
I've seen guys on TV using the same or worse technique.

Mike, you're saying that this can happen. Sure it can. But statistics
say that it's so rare that it's not something that should drive one's
decisions.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is what happens to most guys
who are trying to be safe and still get hurt. The guy who never even
pretend to try to be safe are the ones who you just have to say, fu@&
it, you don't get to keep all your fingers.

Surly in all the saw accident statistics, there are incidents in which
guys had all the safety procedures in check and still got hurt. How so,
then, if not from their hand entering under the saw guard?

Well, there was the kid who lost an eye to a splinter that somehow got
past both the guard and the safety glasses . . .

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 9:17 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
lcb11211@swbell.

I am not trying to sell you any thing and am not suggesting that you buy
any
safety equipment. I am only saying that only a naive person thinks that
he
knows enough to prevent every possible scenario that could lead to an
accident.

However only a naive person thinks that expensive gadgets will make them
"safe".

I get a kick out of how people unwittingly broadcast their bias. By
using the term gadget - a dismissive term, you are doing simply that -
dismissing anyone else's rationale.

You know that a tread has gone on beyond usefulness when people start
claiming to "psychoanalyze" others motives for their position. Hitler
people, Hitler.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/23/2011 10:06 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 1/23/2011 8:26 AM, Swingman wrote:

"Sure, that $800 stove vent liner will work just fine above your new
$7,000 stove. No, you don't even need a vent hood, just have your builder
install it in a cabinet, no problem!"

Yeah, right ... first 13 photo's is how that works:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...JgYOq gKvOVw#

And perhaps worse ... when they _are_ the salesman themselves, as in the
situation when they see something on the internet that:

"... will work so well under that bath vanity that I ordered it!"

Nuff said ...


Wow I see that the drawer parts were cut to length in the UK!

"Larry W" wrote in message
...
I certainly agree that the Sawstop is an excellent safety feature. The
Whirlwind looks very good IMHO also. In my own purchases, for various
reasons I usually purchased used tools when it comes to larger items like
tablesaws, so I have to depend on good safety practices more than
technology.
But, the legal antics of the Sawstop designer don't sit right with me
either. Suppose Bell or Shoei and the other helmet manufacturers started
lobbying for mandatory helmet use but CAR AND TRUCK drivers. There's no
question it would reduce head injuries, right? Or why not require racing
type 5 point seatbelts? Somewhere a line is crossed. Though it is a
line that moves with the attititudes of society at any given time, like
the change in acceptance of smoking over the last 30 years or so.

--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

And boy you can't win for loosing. LOL

Taking the point of view, I don't want to be forced to buy this technology.
No problem. I don't want to pay for higher insurance rates to cover those
that don't want the technology. Catch 22.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:27:33 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

Plus, he wanted so much in royalties and licensing that ALL of the
manufacturers told him to shove it up his ass. I believe it was after
that happened that he chose to force the issue, to pursue mandatory
use via lobbying. What a jerk.

Making things up Larry? Wher exactly did you read that the manufacturers
"told him to shove it up his ass". And peronally I thought the royalties
were perfectly in line. So your point of view is simply that. But
resorting to make up what actually went down to suit your own slant is
pretty rediculious. You are working yourself into a bigger lather the more
you make things up.



If he thought it was so important to life and limb, why didn't he just
donate the idea to humanity, hmm? (HINT: greed and altruism are
mutually exclusive.)

Still buying gasoline and insurance from the greedy?

On that note we should all close our eyes when we cross the streets since
none of that stuff works anyway....LOL


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
Well, there was the kid who lost an eye to a splinter that somehow got
past both the guard and the safety glasses . . .

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:30:50 -0600, "Leon" wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 01:27:33 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
wrote:

wrote in message
Has someone dictated/mandated/legislated that you use saw stopping
blade technology?

IIRC, the inventor was lobbying for just such legislation.

Plus, he wanted so much in royalties and licensing that ALL of the
manufacturers told him to shove it up his ass. I believe it was after
that happened that he chose to force the issue, to pursue mandatory
use via lobbying. What a jerk.

Making things up Larry? Wher exactly did you read that the manufacturers
"told him to shove it up his ass". And peronally I thought the royalties
were perfectly in line. So your point of view is simply that. But
resorting to make up what actually went down to suit your own slant is
pretty rediculious. You are working yourself into a bigger lather the more
you make things up.

What you thought of the royalties is meaningless, unless you're planning on
building table saws. The table saw manufacturers *obviously* didn't agree
with you. The inventor *did* attempt to force the issue.




If he thought it was so important to life and limb, why didn't he just
donate the idea to humanity, hmm? (HINT: greed and altruism are
mutually exclusive.)

Still buying gasoline and insurance from the greedy?

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...
"Leon" wrote:

So how will you know when your common sense is gone? Seems to me common
sence would indicate that you and I both are imperfect and that neither
of us is prepaired for each and every possible accident that might happen
in the future. Commen sense tells me that I am imperfect, I can make a
mistake, and that I may not know that I am no longer capable untill I do
something that may lead to an accident.

I have, over the years, accumulated some bit of knowledge of the function
of the human mind. My minor in college was psychology and my interest in
the subject has continued ever since. I have read all of Steven Pinker's
tomes as well as those of several other authors whose expertise on the
subject attracted my attention. As I have approached my more mature
years it has occurred to me that it would be wise to study the effects of
aging. As such, I have acquired some notion of the tribulations for which
I felt wise to prepare. I do not approach the afflictions of aging
blindly.
You are obviously possessed of some of the problems that age will cause or
you wouldn't have expressed your concern in the matter.
Self awareness can be a valuable asset in addressing potential pitfalls.
I like to believe that I am somewhat "self-aware".
In addition, I have a son who visits my shop regularly. He has no
reservations about offering constructive criticism. G
I already have plans for the day I will sell or otherwise dispose of my
shop equipment and undertake other activities that interest me.
My other hobbies include photography, RV travel, reading and writing.
Your concern and advice is, as always, appreciated.


I made this comment before another comment that you made and I am in
agreement with you all the way now, I simply misunderstood your position.
We agree now to,,,,agree. ;!)