AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS CAUGHT ON VIDEO

It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

The video can be found and downloaded he

http://www.ogrish.com

Allen Zucher posits:

It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

All it took was one reason, either would have done, but for you to post it in a
woodworking group presents you as an asshole, particularly since this news has
been available for almost 48 hours now.
Charlie Self
"In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence
is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of
office." Ambrose Bierce

It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

On 12 May 2004 22:36:35 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Allen Zucher posits:

It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

All it took was one reason, either would have done, but for you to post it in a
woodworking group presents you as an asshole, particularly since this news has
been available for almost 48 hours now.
Charlie Self

Geez, Charlie, you said "asshole." You know who has a hair trigger
that that sets off.

Although I agree with you 100%.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On 12 May 2004 21:54:20 GMT, Allen Zucher wrote:
AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS CAUGHT ON VIDEO
The video can be found and downloaded he

(snip)

20 bucks says it's a .scr, an .exe, or another virus-transmitting format.

"mp" wrote in message
...
It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that
he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting
this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

I'll vote for the intentional murder of an innocent person as most evil.

todd

In article , "mp"
wrote:

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

How does it matter which is more evil?

are you kidding? In an election year, it matters.

dave

Paul Kierstead wrote:

In article , "mp"
wrote:


Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?


How does it matter which is more evil?

IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.


Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

"mp" wrote in message
...

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

Hey mp, good to hear from you. I'm surprised any of you left tilters
(tablesaw refrence) would pipe in on this subject. Would you care to now
back up all of your claims before that the war in Iraq has nothing to do
with al-Qaida and the war on terror? Al-Qaida kidnapped and executed Nick
Berg in Baghdad and then dumped his body unceremoniously for the military to
find. What is al-Qaida doing there, mp? I thought this war was unjustified
because terrorists are not in Iraq. I thought this wasn't part of the war
on terror, but just a power grab for oil.

It is so gratifying to be right. You should try it sometime, mp.

Frank

Allen Zucher wrote in message . ..

snip
I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Yeah, show us the reality out there, show us the way, master.

Humbly your student,
H

"Frank Ketchum" wrote in message
link.net...

"mp" wrote in message
...

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or
a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

Hey mp, good to hear from you. I'm surprised any of you left tilters
(tablesaw refrence) would pipe in on this subject. Would you care to now
back up all of your claims before that the war in Iraq has nothing to do
with al-Qaida and the war on terror? Al-Qaida kidnapped and executed Nick
Berg in Baghdad and then dumped his body unceremoniously for the military
to
find. What is al-Qaida doing there, mp? I thought this war was
unjustified
because terrorists are not in Iraq. I thought this wasn't part of the war
on terror, but just a power grab for oil.

It is so gratifying to be right. You should try it sometime, mp.

so if we want to bomb france or britain or china, all we need to do is find
some al-qaida members in their country? finding them in a country = must be
associated with the government? sorry frank. nobody's buying this.

people like frank arent going to answer the 'which is more evil' question
because their 'truth' is too shameful for them to just come out and say it.
but here it is laid bare. this is what frank and the others are saying in a
nutshell: the US is allowed to kill foreign as many foreign civilians as we
want, in the hopes that we may get a few al-qaida because the life of a us
citizen is worth that much more than other people in the world.

where might the world be today if instead of those nice sterile shots of the
missile cams shown through the 90's, we saw the ones where people were
running, then exploding? what if the international media showed that in a
form as raw as the video of the beheading? how many americans really have
the stomach for that sort of thing?

the point is simple. one life is one life. american, iraqi, or otherwise.
america truly hasnt figured this out yet.

randy

Hey mp, good to hear from you. I'm surprised any of you left tilters
(tablesaw refrence) would pipe in on this subject. Would you care to now
back up all of your claims before that the war in Iraq has nothing to do
with al-Qaida and the war on terror?

Oh, come on. You can't be serious.

Al-Qaida kidnapped and executed Nick
Berg in Baghdad and then dumped his body unceremoniously for the military
to
find.

Unceremoniously? What did you expect? There wasn't any ceremony either when
the army threw a nearly dead prisoner off a bridge.

What is al-Qaida doing there, mp? I thought this war was unjustified
because terrorists are not in Iraq. I thought this wasn't part of the war
on terror, but just a power grab for oil.

Do you really think that al-Queada was in Iraq during Saddam's regime?


It is so gratifying to be right. You should try it sometime, mp.

Nothing has changed. If anything, there's an even greater public consensus
that the justification for the invasion was all a big lie.

Any "terrorists" that are in Iraq now are only there because they're
fighting the occupation. If a foreign country invaded the US, and you fought
against the occupation, would that make you a terrorist too?

IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.

Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or
a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

How does it matter which is more evil?

That's my point. Killing innocent people is evil regardless of whether
they're American, Iraqi, or Jewish.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 20:38:41 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"
wrote:

"mp" wrote in message
...
It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that
he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting
this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

I'll vote for the intentional murder of an innocent person as most evil.

todd




I think there's some back story we're not getting. for instance, what
the hell was he doing there?

In article .net,
"Frank Ketchum" wrote:

Would you care to now
back up all of your claims before that the war in Iraq has nothing to do
with al-Qaida and the war on terror? Al-Qaida kidnapped and executed Nick
Berg in Baghdad and then dumped his body unceremoniously for the military to
find. What is al-Qaida doing there, mp? I thought this war was unjustified
because terrorists are not in Iraq. I thought this wasn't part of the war
on terror, but just a power grab for oil.

So you don't cotton to the notion that they (al-Q) have had the last
year to get a foothold in the country once Hussein's strict oversight
was removed?

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

In article , "mp" wrote:
It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?


The beheading. Particularly considering that it's the only one of the three
that _actually_took_place_.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article , "mp" wrote:
IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.

Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?


Even if those numbers are correct -- which I doubt -- it's still an order of
magnitude less than what Saddam was doing. Any rational individual would have
to consider that an improvement.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article , Dave Hinz wrote:
On 12 May 2004 21:54:20 GMT, Allen Zucher wrote:
AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS CAUGHT ON VIDEO
The video can be found and downloaded he

(snip)

20 bucks says it's a .scr, an .exe, or another virus-transmitting format.

I won't take that bet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message .com...
In article , "mp" wrote:
IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.

Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?


Even if those numbers are correct -- which I doubt -- it's still an order of
magnitude less than what Saddam was doing. Any rational individual would have
to consider that an improvement.


mp has apparently made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I found came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net .
Their count is 10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all sources including attacks by Iraqui
insurgents/terrorists, those hit by errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army, any source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time
period, civilians running checkpoints, etc.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

In article , "Al Reid" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.com...
In article , "mp" wrote:
IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.

Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?


Even if those numbers are correct -- which I doubt -- it's still an order of
magnitude less than what Saddam was doing. Any rational individual would have
to consider that an improvement.


mp has apparently made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I found
came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net .
Their count is 10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all
sources including attacks by Iraqui
insurgents/terrorists, those hit by errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army, any
source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time
period, civilians running checkpoints, etc.


If one considers "normal" to be what Iraq has unfortunately experienced during
the two decades preceding the current American occupation, civilian deaths
during that occupation have been at a far *lower* rate than "normal".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter,
send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

"mp" wrote in message ...
IMHO, I think that hijacking 4 airliners full of people and ramming them
into buildings, while killing thousands as a result, definitely goes to
the top of the evil list............ Mark L.

Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?


mp,

You made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I found came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net . Their count is
10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all sources including attacks by Iraqui insurgents/terrorists, those hit by
errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army, any source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time period, civilians running
checkpoints, etc.

There has been no systematic slaughter of civilians. All were indirect casualties of war. Unlike the attrocities committed by John
Kerry in Vietnam where he admits to taking part and knowing it was wrong.

--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

"mp" wrote in message
...


Do you really think that al-Queada was in Iraq during Saddam's regime?


Yes. Keep thinking about it mp, you may finally understand it and only a
year after everyone else.

So you think that we went into Afghanistan and completely threw al-Qaida
into chaos. And then, we turn our attention to Iraq. So, the logical thing
for al-Qaida to do is to pick up and follow us to continue fighting? If we
were suddenly distracted by an area where al-Qaida was not, why would they
go there? Come on, give us a break.

Frank

"xrongor" wrote in message
...


so if we want to bomb france or britain or china, all we need to do is
find
some al-qaida members in their country? finding them in a country = must
be
associated with the government? sorry frank. nobody's buying this.


We would bomb ourselves then. No, this is clearly not the case and you have
to try hard to paint what's going on in this light. Iraq has harbored
terrorists for many years no matter how badly you would like to ignore it.


people like frank arent going to answer the 'which is more evil' question
because their 'truth' is too shameful for them to just come out and say
it.
but here it is laid bare. this is what frank and the others are saying in
a
nutshell: the US is allowed to kill foreign as many foreign civilians as
we
want, in the hopes that we may get a few al-qaida because the life of a us
citizen is worth that much more than other people in the world.


I don't usually answer questions which have such an incredibly shaky
premise. But just for you randy...

I think beheading a civilian is the most evil. First of all, I am unaware
of any beating to death instances of prisoners. I guess we will see since
not all of the info has been made public yet. But who are these prisoners?
Oh, I know, they are all falsly imprisoned, right? Only a mental midget to
try and suggest that these prisoners are anyone but terrorists and murderers
with American blood on their hands. I would suggest that dropping a bomb on
a crowded marketplace is a terrible thing. So I suppose we did this at some
point to kill innocent civilians according to you?

Randy, seriously for one second just think about this. Who is to blame when
civilians are hurt/maimed/killed in this case? The US who has given a
year's worth of warnings that we will make no distinction between terrorists
and those who harbor them or the terrorists who hide behind civilians, hide
in mosques, strap bombs to kids, etc? The truth is that civilian life means
exactly nill to those people. Your life means even less.


where might the world be today if instead of those nice sterile shots of
the
missile cams shown through the 90's, we saw the ones where people were
running, then exploding? what if the international media showed that in a
form as raw as the video of the beheading? how many americans really have
the stomach for that sort of thing?

I agree with you 100%. I also am of the opinion that there is no way we
could WWII today with the media that we have. I have not come to the
conclusion, however, that we shouldn't have been in WWII.


Frank

"xrongor" wrote in message ...


so if we want to bomb france or britain or china, all we need to do is find
some al-qaida members in their country? finding them in a country = must be
associated with the government? sorry frank. nobody's buying this.

Or Buffalo

mp has apparently made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I
found came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net .
Their count is 10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all
sources including attacks by Iraqui
insurgents/terrorists, those hit by errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army,
any source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time
period, civilians running checkpoints, etc.

The website you mention trys to keep an accurate count of all verified
deaths, ie. those who have been brought to hospitals or morgues, or whose
deaths have been reported in the media and verified from multiple sources.

Muslim tradition is to bury the dead as soon as possible, and the reality of
the situation is that many of the dead are buried right away, often close to
where they died, without having their deaths being officially recorded.

The worst case numbers I found came from a website
http://www.iraqbodycount.net . Their count is
10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all sources
including attacks by Iraqui insurgents/terrorists, those hit by
errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army, any source that puts deaths above
the "normal" for a time period, civilians running
checkpoints, etc.

That is not the worst case number, but in fact the opposite. That website
lists all the deaths that they've been able to verify through official
sources. The actual number could easily be much higher.

There has been no systematic slaughter of civilians.

Thousands of dead Iraqis would disagree with you.

All were indirect casualties of war.

Really. Have you gone through the list and verified each death yourself?

Unlike the attrocities committed by John
Kerry in Vietnam where he admits to taking part and knowing it was wrong.

What's your point? Am I supposed to jump in here and defend Kerry? Good
luck.

"mp" wrote in message ...
mp has apparently made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I
found came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net .
Their count is 10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all
sources including attacks by Iraqui
insurgents/terrorists, those hit by errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army,
any source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time
period, civilians running checkpoints, etc.

The website you mention trys to keep an accurate count of all verified
deaths, ie. those who have been brought to hospitals or morgues, or whose
deaths have been reported in the media and verified from multiple sources.

Muslim tradition is to bury the dead as soon as possible, and the reality of
the situation is that many of the dead are buried right away, often close to
where they died, without having their deaths being officially recorded.



Ok, so where do you get your numbers from?

Do you really think that al-Queada was in Iraq during Saddam's regime?


Yes. Keep thinking about it mp, you may finally understand it and only a
year after everyone else.

So you think that we went into Afghanistan and completely threw al-Qaida
into chaos. And then, we turn our attention to Iraq. So, the logical
thing
for al-Qaida to do is to pick up and follow us to continue fighting? If
we
were suddenly distracted by an area where al-Qaida was not, why would they
go there? Come on, give us a break.


Neither you nor anyone else can prove that Saddam had links to Bin Laden or
his organization, though many have tried.

The lies and propaganda that the WH used to justify the invasion has been
proven to be false. All of it. No WMD's, no links to al-Queada, no threat of
mushroom clouds on American soil.

What I find amazing is that people like yourself keep believing all this
crap in the absence of any hard evidence. That's changing, as recent polls
are showing that more and more American citizens are realizing they've been
hoodwinked. Some day you too may come to that realization.

On 12 May 2004 21:54:20 GMT, Allen Zucher wrote:

AMERICAN BEHEADED BY TERRORISTS CAUGHT ON VIDEO

It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

The video can be found and downloaded he

-snip link-

Why, in the name of God, would I, or anyone else, for that matter, want to watch a "snuff" movie - the absolute ultimate in
pornography.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

"mp" wrote in message ...
The worst case numbers I found came from a website
http://www.iraqbodycount.net . Their count is
10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all sources
including attacks by Iraqui insurgents/terrorists, those hit by
errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army, any source that puts deaths above
the "normal" for a time period, civilians running
checkpoints, etc.

That is not the worst case number, but in fact the opposite. That website
lists all the deaths that they've been able to verify through official
sources. The actual number could easily be much higher.

There has been no systematic slaughter of civilians.

Thousands of dead Iraqis would disagree with you.


The point is that civilians have not been the targets. In fact they have been used as shields by the insurgents and the military
have been carefull not to harm them.

All were indirect casualties of war.

Really. Have you gone through the list and verified each death yourself?


I spent more time verifying my claim than you did. Just where did you come up with 20 to 30 thousand?

Unlike the attrocities committed by John
Kerry in Vietnam where he admits to taking part and knowing it was wrong.

What's your point? Am I supposed to jump in here and defend Kerry? Good
luck.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?


The beheading. Particularly considering that it's the only one of the
three
that _actually_took_place_.


So far, 23 or 24 Iraqis are known to have died in US custody. Do you think
they died of lonliness, or perhaps they died from getting the crap beat out
of them, as shown in recent photos. Could be too, that they died from the
humiliation of forced homosexual sex, or perhaps internal injuries after
getting sodomized by a glowstick.

It really doesn't matter how anyone was killed on either side. It's all
evil.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:29:31 -0700, wrote:


I think there's some back story we're not getting. for instance, what
the hell was he doing there?


According to the news reports I've read - for whatever they might be worth - he owns a small company and was hustling business for
that company - "looking for work".

According to those same reports:

1. He had been detained by the Iraqi police/US Military, who apparently were not satisfied with that explanation of his presence.
2. He was released by the US Military only after (his parents?) brought suit in Federal Court.
3. Almost immediately (a couple of days?) after his release he dropped from view and reappeared in this video.

My suggestion for anyone is to stay the Hell out of a combat zone if you don't absolutely have to be there.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:08:34 -0700, "mp" wrote:


Which didn't have anything to do with Iraq.

Speaking of evil, what about the 20,000 - 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
that have been killed in the last year? Does their slaughter rate anywhere
on your evil scale?



Speaking of evil, what about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians that were killed in the years prior to last year.
Where does that slaughter rate on the evil scale. And that does have everything to do with Iraq.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:23:28 -0600, "xrongor" wrote:


the point is simple. one life is one life. american, iraqi, or otherwise.
america truly hasnt figured this out yet.

randy



The point is not quite that simple, Randy. See if you have the same outlook after you've been dumped off in a hot LZ, or trying to
crawl into your helmet with rockets/mortars/artillery exploding all around you, or have g**ks inside the perimeter, or any number of
other scenarios too numerous to detail. My take is that the life of the Marine/Soldier/etc. beside me is worth one HELL of a lot
more than the life of that SOB shooting at me (or anybody standing anywhere close to him/her, for that matter).

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:05:05 -0700, "mp" wrote:

-snip-
Any "terrorists" that are in Iraq now are only there because they're
fighting the occupation. If a foreign country invaded the US, and you fought
against the occupation, would that make you a terrorist too?


It would depend entirely on the tactics used. If I targeted the civilian population, yes, I would be a terrorist. If I ambushed
military patrols, attacked military depots/installations, then I would probably be an irregular or "guerrilla" soldier. And yes, I
do consider the "strategic bombing" of WW2 carried out against population centers by both sides to be "terrorist" activities. I note
that most military historians have concluded such raids had absolutely no effect on the outcome of the war.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

I agree with you.

It should have been a bigger bomb.

Kill them all.



"mp" wrote in message
...
It is very sad that this has happened. On reason this happened is that
he
was American. Another reason is that he was Jewish. I am only posting
this
so that people can see the reality of the evil that is out there.

Tell me, what's more evil - a beheading, beating detainees to death, or a
dropping a 500 pound bomb onto a crowded marketplace?

On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:16:18 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
wrote:


"mp" wrote in message
...


Do you really think that al-Queada was in Iraq during Saddam's regime?


Yes. Keep thinking about it mp, you may finally understand it and only a
year after everyone else.

So you think that we went into Afghanistan and completely threw al-Qaida
into chaos. And then, we turn our attention to Iraq. So, the logical thing
for al-Qaida to do is to pick up and follow us to continue fighting? If we
were suddenly distracted by an area where al-Qaida was not, why would they
go there? Come on, give us a break.

Frank



Frank,

The thing you have to understand with mp and his fellow-travellers
is that it doesn't matter what the circumstances, it is *always* the fault
of the US. The US attacked on 9/11? It was our fault -- we obviously did
something to make these people hate us. A civilian who went to Iraq to
help rebuild the country's telecommunications infrastructure was beheaded?
Obviously it was Bush's fault. USA Today the other day tried to generate
moral equivalence between humiliating prisoners (for which we don't
necessarily have the full story yet) with napalming civilians, killing
suspects, and other events that resulted in the DEATHS of people.

In the paradigm with which these people view the world, the US is evil,
any and all actions undertaken by the US are evil and the only dignified
response to any attack (physical, political, or editorial) is to roll over
and wet ourselves, thanking the perpetrators for reminding us how evil we
are and have been. They conveniently ignore the (documented) unearthing of
300,000 casualties of Saddam's regime and gloss over the *real* torture of
prisoners in Saddam's prisons. They draw moral equivalence between
*humiliating* prisoners with physically sawing off hands, drilling holes in
people, and literally beating people to death.

Bottom line is there is no way you will ever convince mp that the US is
anything other than an evil empire and that these radical muslim extremists
who behead prisoners, fly airplanes into buildings, topple buildings onto
homosexuals, destroy historical artifacts, or make the statement that "any
female American soldiers may be kept as slaves" are nothing more than
misunderstood people who have become that way because of the evil
oppression by the US.

In article , "mp" wrote:
mp has apparently made this up. No surprise. The worst case numbers I
found came from a website http://www.iraqbodycount.net .
Their count is 10994 and seems to include civilian deaths from any and all
sources including attacks by Iraqui
insurgents/terrorists, those hit by errant missles/gunfire by Iraqui army,
any source that puts deaths above the "normal" for a time
period, civilians running checkpoints, etc.

The website you mention trys to keep an accurate count of all verified
deaths, ie. those who have been brought to hospitals or morgues, or whose
deaths have been reported in the media and verified from multiple sources.

Muslim tradition is to bury the dead as soon as possible, and the reality of
the situation is that many of the dead are buried right away, often close to
where they died, without having their deaths being officially recorded.

So in other words your numbers are nothing more than a wild-ass guess.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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