On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:00:36 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"


Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.

Nope. That one isn't up for question. I had it beat into my head in
school long ago. But if you Googled it, remember that not quite
_everything_ online is true.


This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.


There should be a question mark at the end of that sentence.
Since you used a colon to extend it, the entire sentence is a question.

Correct. I should have put "How does that go?" Even though I cringe
every time, I see so many questions ended with periods online that I'm
starting to mimic it. Egad!


I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his
expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. shrug


"were were?" Ok, I'll give you that one as a typo or a cut-n-paste
error.

Zone error, I guess.


See what you get for sticking up for me? :-p

Yeah, ya larnt me agin that 'un.

P.S: Why are you so defensive, Mikey? chortle

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:00:36 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
None of my bits are tapered.
"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"

Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.

Nope. That one isn't up for question. I had it beat into my head in
school long ago. But if you Googled it, remember that not quite
_everything_ online is true.


I actually got it out of a grammar book I keep on my shelf, but I
figured google would be quicker for you.



This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.
How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.

There should be a question mark at the end of that sentence.
Since you used a colon to extend it, the entire sentence is a question.

Correct. I should have put "How does that go?" Even though I cringe
every time, I see so many questions ended with periods online that I'm
starting to mimic it. Egad!


I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his
expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. shrug

"were were?" Ok, I'll give you that one as a typo or a cut-n-paste
error.

Zone error, I guess.


See what you get for sticking up for me? :-p

Yeah, ya larnt me agin that 'un.

P.S: Why are you so defensive, Mikey? chortle


Just playing, man.
Arguing grammar in the internet is about as productive as arguing
politics. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:27:38 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:


Arguing grammar in the internet is about as productive as arguing
politics. :-)

But both are fun :-). As are comments on netiquette.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:00:36 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
None of my bits are tapered.
"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"

Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.

Nope. That one isn't up for question. I had it beat into my head in
school long ago.

That doesn't mean the one doing the beating was correct.

But if you Googled it, remember that not quite everything online is true.

Googled (actually, I used Dogpile.com instead of Google for my search
engine) for the excessivly anal retentive tells us that "none are" is
correct usage:

http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxnoneis.html
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-non2.htm
http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.co...g-to-clarkson/
http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#116
http://volokh.com/posts/1206564497.shtml

-MIKE- wrote in
:


Arguing grammar in the internet is about as productive as
arguing politics. :-)


Or arguing the value of a tool... Some find value in purchasing
quality tools and others pride themselves in making something
similar from scraps.

Larry

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:23:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:00:36 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"


Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.

Nope. That one isn't up for question. I had it beat into my head in
school long ago. But if you Googled it, remember that not quite
_everything_ online is true.





"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."


Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. p. 192.



Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."


Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. p. 192.

Speaking of "count" vs. "non-count", why is it that before I start attacking a
pile of lumber I have fewer boards and less sawdust, but as I cut them up I
have more boards and more sawdust?

--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Nov 25, 2:39*am, "CW" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...







"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.

If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a mile.- Hide quoted text -

Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:39:56 -0600, the infamous Steve Turner
scrawled the following:

Tom Watson wrote:
"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."


Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. p. 192.

Speaking of "count" vs. "non-count", why is it that before I start attacking a
pile of lumber I have fewer boards and less sawdust, but as I cut them up I
have more boards and more sawdust?

Sidney could have told you that, but he's mistaken on "none are",
AFAIC. I don't cotton to "shiney", either. I learned it as "shiny"
and that's how it's spelled, period.

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:35:11 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."


Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. p. 192.



Sidney could have told you that, but he's mistaken on "none are",
AFAIC. I don't cotton to "shiney", either. I learned it as "shiny"
and that's how it's spelled, period.


Ah... Naturally I shall, in future, cite you in all matters
grammatical rather than those hosers at the sister publication to the
OED.


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Dec 6, 6:40*am, Tom Watson wrote:
On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:35:11 -0800, Larry Jaques

wrote:
Tom Watson wrote:
"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."

Oxford English Grammar, *Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. *p. 192.

Sidney could have told you that, but he's mistaken on "none are",
AFAIC. *I don't cotton to "shiney", either. I learned it as "shiny"
and that's how it's spelled, period. *

Ah... *Naturally I shall, in future, cite you in all matters
grammatical rather than those hosers at the sister publication to the
OED.

Regards,

Tom Watsonhttp://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Oh, you mean the 'English' dictionary....not the American
dictionary"

On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 06:40:14 -0500, the infamous Tom Watson
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:35:11 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as
well as count..."


Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press,
1996. p. 192.



Sidney could have told you that, but he's mistaken on "none are",
AFAIC. I don't cotton to "shiney", either. I learned it as "shiny"
and that's how it's spelled, period.


Ah... Naturally I shall, in future, cite you in all matters
grammatical rather than those hosers at the sister publication to the
OED.

Damned straight!

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 2:39 am, "CW" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...







"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do
you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.

If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end
combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at
your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors
will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely
think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for
woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a
mile.- Hide quoted text -

Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

If I get what you are asking, 1/64 out on a dovetail might as well be a
mile. Many people would be amazed at the tolerances that have to be held for
joints such as dovetails, box joints, mortise and tennon et.Got to admire
guys that can hand cut really nice joints. I've hand cut dovetails. They
worked but were anything but nice fitting, not to mention being ugly.

On Dec 2, 3:52 pm, -MIKE- wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.
I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
Nothing you said is an issue.

You asked, I answered. As I said, there are ways to mitigate the
effects of these problems. If you are aware of them, and you know
that they adversely affect the accuracy of the results, then isn't it
somewhat disingenuous not to mention them when you advocate this
technique? Of course, asking the question itself ("why is it goofy?")
would seem to indicate that you didn't know the answer (i.e. weren't
aware of the shortcomings).

I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.

And, like I said, I'm sure that it's "not necessary" for the sort of
work that you do. But don't presume to speak for others and the work
that they do. Maybe someone needs the added accuracy - or maybe they
just don't have a lot of time to waste goofing around with trial and
error methods of woodworking. They would prefer to know that their
drill press spindle is squared up to the table without having to worry
about all the possible sources of error that might exist.

This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.

Geez, not the "NASA" argument! Just about every time this topic comes
up someone has to make a citation to NASA. If you can't draw on logic
and reason, then try a bit of hyperbole, right? So, are you saying
that only a "NASA machinists' group" can specify the use of dial
indicators to align a drill press? I hate to disappoint you but
millions of people use dial indicators every day and they don't all
work at NASA. Dial indicators are not specialty tools intended only
for the elite few who work on the cutting edge of technology. They
are as common as dirt in almost every industry (including many
woodworking shops).

I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

This is actually a very good argument for the use of a dial
indicator. How else are you going to make fine adjustments and
precise alignments? Trial and error? Talk about goofy!

( drilling a hole from opposite sides)

Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.


Hmmm... you go from "I don't know of any situation..." to "I do all
that...". Seems like a rather large leap to me.

We're not talking about the accuracy of your machinist's square.
We're talking about a goofy method for drill press alignment. In case
you didn't notice, the shortcomings that I pointed out have nothing to
do with the accuracy of the square.

I realize that the "square" method for drill press alignment can be
found in countless books, magazines, and TV shows. It's quite
popular. And, in all those references there's not a single mention of
its shortcomings (which you acknowledge). This should tell you
something about the expertise of the popular media.

( cost of a TS-Aligner)
I'm aware of all those things.

Ya, right. Sure you are. Just like you knew all about the
shortcomings of using a square to align a drill press (but couldn't
figure out why it was goofy). Just like you drill holes from opposite
sides and they easily meet in the middle. It's funny, but you only
seem to know these things *AFTER* they are pointed out to you. The
time to demonstrate some expertise is before you criticize things that
you clearly don't understand. If you really understood what goes into
the cost of a TS-Aligner, and the functions that it provides, then you
would have had nothing critical to say about my pricing.

I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
bunch.
I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

Is that why you have been so critical? Talk about being
disingenuous. Why did you pay money for your "engineer's square"?
Assuming you actually have a drill press, why did you pay money for
it? Can't you manage to do high quality woodworking without these
"shiny tools"? Or, maybe you are unwilling or unable to make your own
versions of these tools. Why pay so much for a square? It seems like
such a simple tool that anybody could make one - right? What a ripoff
- all these square makers charge way more than it's worth. Or, maybe
you would be willing to entertain the idea that there's more to a
square than you can get by looking at a photo.

There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
make you fell inferior for not joining their club.

I'm thinking that this statement reveals more than you wanted it to.
Nobody's trying to make you feel inferior. Nobody's saying that you
can't do your best without a particular dial indicator jig. There is
no "club" here that needs to be joined. You will have to look to
yourself about any feelings of insecurity you have on this topic.
Remember, you brought up the issues with commercially made dial
indicator jigs - not me.

We're talking about why the use of a square to align a drill press is
goofy. I'm pointing out the problems with this technique and you are
supposedly defending it. Apparently there isn't much for you to say
because your defense has migrated to criticism of commercially made
dial indicator jigs - mine in particular. I didn't tell anybody that
they had to have one of my jigs, I just said that they should go out
and get a dial indicator.

Be careful that you don't try to make others feel inferior because
they choose to buy a dial indicator jig and don't join your "I made it
myself" club. You're always going to meet people who would rather buy
than make their own. And, you'll always know people who are capable
of making a lot more in their shop than you ever could. Everyone has
a reason to be looking down their noses at someone else.

And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
thingamajigs.

Hype? Hmmm....that's somewhat of a wild generalization. So, let's
see your dial indicator jig. I assume that you put yourself into this
category of "guys who make their own jigs and fixtures" and are proud
of your accomplishment. I invited you to submit your jig as a good
example of what someone can do in their own shop. Where's the beef?
Let's compare jigs so that everyone can see where the hype really is.
Or, maybe you would be more inclined to admit that it's nice to be
able to buy some things that are just impossible or impractical for
you to make on your own. Maybe you would like to stop looking down
your nose at people who value their time more than the cost of a
commercially made dial indicator jig.

Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)

I hate to disappoint you, but dial indicators have been around since
"before electricity". James Watt (inventor of the modern steam
engine) is often credited with the invention of the dial indicator in
1772. But, your point is well made. Examples of fine woodworking
date back to the Egyptian empire. It may not have occurred to you,
but the argument applies equally to the drill press and that
"engineer's square" of yours. If you are so inclined, you can try
your hand at shaving wood with rocks and copper edged tools. How on
Earth did they ever drill holes without drill bits? All of the modern
tools and machinery don't enable high quality craftsmanship; they just
make it easier and faster.

The problem with being a Luddite is its inherent hypocrisy. You come
up with an imaginary period that you think is some sort of idealistic
utopia and decide that every advancement after that is an evil
corruption of the art. But the line you draw is completely
arbitrary. Some other Luddite has a different idealistic utopia in
mind and thinks your ideas are a corruption of the art. Ultimately
both deny progress. In case you didn't notice, the Luddites didn't
win the industrial revolution.

Ed Bennett

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
...

( cost of a TS-Aligner)
I'm aware of all those things.



Ed Bennett

Well, Ed, I bet you won't remember, but Don Peterson and I both
tested and commented on the TS-Aligner when you first introduced
it. Back then, I had my shop and a fairly new PM-66 TS. I'd
spent quite some time aligning the fence and table using the old
method of a square, reversing cuts etc. Don had used the aligner
first, then shipped it to me. I spent a couple hours with it and
only had praise for it. In that couple hours, I made those "nano"
adjustments that resulted in some of the most pleasing output I'd
ever done. It was a great thing then, and I'm sure that with the
refinements you've made over the years, it's a better thing now.


--
Nonny

What does it mean when drool runs
out of both sides of a drunken
Congressman's mouth?

The floor is level.

Ed Bennett wrote:
On Dec 2, 3:52 pm, -MIKE- wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.
I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
Nothing you said is an issue.

You asked, I answered. As I said, there are ways to mitigate the
effects of these problems. If you are aware of them, and you know
that they adversely affect the accuracy of the results, then isn't it
somewhat disingenuous not to mention them when you advocate this
technique? Of course, asking the question itself ("why is it goofy?")
would seem to indicate that you didn't know the answer (i.e. weren't
aware of the shortcomings).

I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.

And, like I said, I'm sure that it's "not necessary" for the sort of
work that you do. But don't presume to speak for others and the work
that they do. Maybe someone needs the added accuracy - or maybe they
just don't have a lot of time to waste goofing around with trial and
error methods of woodworking. They would prefer to know that their
drill press spindle is squared up to the table without having to worry
about all the possible sources of error that might exist.

This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.

Geez, not the "NASA" argument! Just about every time this topic comes
up someone has to make a citation to NASA. If you can't draw on logic
and reason, then try a bit of hyperbole, right? So, are you saying
that only a "NASA machinists' group" can specify the use of dial
indicators to align a drill press? I hate to disappoint you but
millions of people use dial indicators every day and they don't all
work at NASA. Dial indicators are not specialty tools intended only
for the elite few who work on the cutting edge of technology. They
are as common as dirt in almost every industry (including many
woodworking shops).

I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

This is actually a very good argument for the use of a dial
indicator. How else are you going to make fine adjustments and
precise alignments? Trial and error? Talk about goofy!

( drilling a hole from opposite sides)
Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.


Hmmm... you go from "I don't know of any situation..." to "I do all
that...". Seems like a rather large leap to me.

We're not talking about the accuracy of your machinist's square.
We're talking about a goofy method for drill press alignment. In case
you didn't notice, the shortcomings that I pointed out have nothing to
do with the accuracy of the square.

I realize that the "square" method for drill press alignment can be
found in countless books, magazines, and TV shows. It's quite
popular. And, in all those references there's not a single mention of
its shortcomings (which you acknowledge). This should tell you
something about the expertise of the popular media.

( cost of a TS-Aligner)
I'm aware of all those things.

Ya, right. Sure you are. Just like you knew all about the
shortcomings of using a square to align a drill press (but couldn't
figure out why it was goofy). Just like you drill holes from opposite
sides and they easily meet in the middle. It's funny, but you only
seem to know these things *AFTER* they are pointed out to you. The
time to demonstrate some expertise is before you criticize things that
you clearly don't understand. If you really understood what goes into
the cost of a TS-Aligner, and the functions that it provides, then you
would have had nothing critical to say about my pricing.

I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
bunch.
I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

Is that why you have been so critical? Talk about being
disingenuous. Why did you pay money for your "engineer's square"?
Assuming you actually have a drill press, why did you pay money for
it? Can't you manage to do high quality woodworking without these
"shiny tools"? Or, maybe you are unwilling or unable to make your own
versions of these tools. Why pay so much for a square? It seems like
such a simple tool that anybody could make one - right? What a ripoff
- all these square makers charge way more than it's worth. Or, maybe
you would be willing to entertain the idea that there's more to a
square than you can get by looking at a photo.

There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
make you fell inferior for not joining their club.

I'm thinking that this statement reveals more than you wanted it to.
Nobody's trying to make you feel inferior. Nobody's saying that you
can't do your best without a particular dial indicator jig. There is
no "club" here that needs to be joined. You will have to look to
yourself about any feelings of insecurity you have on this topic.
Remember, you brought up the issues with commercially made dial
indicator jigs - not me.

We're talking about why the use of a square to align a drill press is
goofy. I'm pointing out the problems with this technique and you are
supposedly defending it. Apparently there isn't much for you to say
because your defense has migrated to criticism of commercially made
dial indicator jigs - mine in particular. I didn't tell anybody that
they had to have one of my jigs, I just said that they should go out
and get a dial indicator.

Be careful that you don't try to make others feel inferior because
they choose to buy a dial indicator jig and don't join your "I made it
myself" club. You're always going to meet people who would rather buy
than make their own. And, you'll always know people who are capable
of making a lot more in their shop than you ever could. Everyone has
a reason to be looking down their noses at someone else.

And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
thingamajigs.

Hype? Hmmm....that's somewhat of a wild generalization. So, let's
see your dial indicator jig. I assume that you put yourself into this
category of "guys who make their own jigs and fixtures" and are proud
of your accomplishment. I invited you to submit your jig as a good
example of what someone can do in their own shop. Where's the beef?
Let's compare jigs so that everyone can see where the hype really is.
Or, maybe you would be more inclined to admit that it's nice to be
able to buy some things that are just impossible or impractical for
you to make on your own. Maybe you would like to stop looking down
your nose at people who value their time more than the cost of a
commercially made dial indicator jig.

Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)

I hate to disappoint you, but dial indicators have been around since
"before electricity". James Watt (inventor of the modern steam
engine) is often credited with the invention of the dial indicator in
1772. But, your point is well made. Examples of fine woodworking
date back to the Egyptian empire. It may not have occurred to you,
but the argument applies equally to the drill press and that
"engineer's square" of yours. If you are so inclined, you can try
your hand at shaving wood with rocks and copper edged tools. How on
Earth did they ever drill holes without drill bits? All of the modern
tools and machinery don't enable high quality craftsmanship; they just
make it easier and faster.

The problem with being a Luddite is its inherent hypocrisy. You come
up with an imaginary period that you think is some sort of idealistic
utopia and decide that every advancement after that is an evil
corruption of the art. But the line you draw is completely
arbitrary. Some other Luddite has a different idealistic utopia in
mind and thinks your ideas are a corruption of the art. Ultimately
both deny progress. In case you didn't notice, the Luddites didn't
win the industrial revolution.

Ed Bennett

Ed, I didn't even read past your first paragraph.
You sell a widget and will take your arguments to defend it to grave, so
there is no use debating it.

I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.

What'd I say ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
...

When is this group going to learn that attempting any discussion with Ed
Bennet will only end up in long, pointless diatribes? This guy makes a good
product, but cannot accept anything less than his view of how things should
be done. It just goes round and round...

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.

What'd I say ...


I know, I know. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
cough::

Bill

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:15:38 -0500, "Bill"
wrote:

As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
cough::

Bill


If it were stored in a box/case all the time, it would not get used. I
use my Starrett combo more frequently than I though I would, making it
an even better buy.

Phisherman wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:15:38 -0500, "Bill"
wrote:

As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
cough::

Bill



If it were stored in a box/case all the time, it would not get used.


I know what you mean. I think if you were talking about the 434, then
you might like a nice place to keep the protractor.

Bill




I use my Starrett combo more frequently than I though I would, making it
an even better buy.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 00:14:05 -0500, the infamous "Mike Marlow"
scrawled the following:


"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
...

When is this group going to learn that attempting any discussion with Ed
Bennet will only end up in long, pointless diatribes? This guy makes a good
product, but cannot accept anything less than his view of how things should
be done. It just goes round and round...

I finally plonked him about 8 years ago, after seeing about 20,000
lines of his argument repeated for the third time. Sorry, Ed.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

On Dec 9, 11:56*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:

snip

Sorry Larry,

To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Robert Louis Stevenson

I suppose a dead soul is better than no soul at all, but maintaining a
living soul seems best to me. Is there anything in your life that you
would be willing to stand up and endure some discomfort for?

Ed Bennett

"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box
for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in
your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a
great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's
when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be helpful in
installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out neither
Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked to have
found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis. I
contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

Bill

Bill wrote:
"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
helpful in installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
to have found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
I contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
helpful in installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
to have found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
I contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

Yep, $85 including shipping. My wife mentioned she would like to give me a
woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet. Did you see that Larry the
Cable
Guy skit, where he explains that the waitress rubbed his neck, and then he
thought
"Gosh, I should've asked for....!" ; ) Of course, the truth is that
we try to lead a
thrifty life style--at least I do. : )

Bill

Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)


Tempting...but I asked for the square. And two books by James Krenov
(Cabinet Makers Notebook and .
The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking). That's all I asked for from "santa" this
year. : )



--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

Did you read the fine print:
Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet to
allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a fine-pitch
thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a half turn
1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then locks the
setting.

Just $39.50 for the "Imperial Graduated" one... Reminds me of the
"Red-rider BB gun with the compass in the stock...".

Bill wrote:
"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

Did you read the fine print:
Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet to
allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a fine-pitch
thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a half turn
1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then locks the
setting.

Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)

Just $39.50 for the "Imperial Graduated" one... Reminds me of the
"Red-rider BB gun with the compass in the stock...".


Just call me "Ralphie" :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

Did you read the fine print:
Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet
to allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a
fine-pitch thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a
half turn 1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then
locks the setting.

Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)


Perhaps we could use our collective minds to develop the design for one
using a
a threaded steel rod.

The threaded steel rod is my (first) suggestion. A closer inspection
indicates that
they have tapped the end to hold the cutter. Performing that may not be so
easy
for those of us not adequately equipped, but surely something could be
screwed
on the end instead. Take it away...

Steve Turner wrote:
Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)


She does. Take it from me.

I love that guage. I use it constantly. I rarely bitch about anything
that LV sells, but I do have one minor complaint with the markings on
this tool. I can't really read them and have to use either a micrometer
or indirect measuring to set it up. Which is likely the best way anyway,
but the markings could be a bit darker.

However, it's still a wonderful marking too.

Tanus

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

Did you read the fine print:
Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet
to allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a
fine-pitch thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32",
a half turn 1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew
then locks the setting.

Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)


Perhaps we could use our collective minds to develop the design for one
using a
a threaded steel rod.

The threaded steel rod is my (first) suggestion. A closer inspection
indicates that they have tapped the end to hold the cutter. Performing
that may not be so easy for those of us not adequately equipped, but
surely something could be screwed on the end instead. Take it away...

4 nuts (may as well choose them chrome plated) , placed two on each side of
a
cutter which ensure that the cutter could be removed for quick replacement
or sharpening.
Alternately, the two further from the end could be replaced by one brazed in
place.
One side of one of the nuts can be marked as a reference for adjustment of
the "fence".

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)


Steve,

I picked up a guage on sale at Rockler this month for $9.99 ($5 off).
Hopefully it will
work well-enough for someone who has never used one before. You were right,
my
wife snatched it right out of my hand. :-) Please correct me if I am wrong:
it can be used
to mark mortises and tenons, right? So if I have two 3/4" boards that I
mark 1/8" on each
side, shaping a tenon out of one board and cutting a mortise in the other, I
should get
perfect fit, no? It'll never happen? Sand the tenon accordingly? Any
tips?

I just read in Woodsmith about a simple jig (just a block) used to make sure
the craftsperson
cuts the bottom of the dovetail joint (perfectly) square by holding the
smooth face of the
chisel up against the block while cutting down. Seems like that idea may
come in handy
for trimming up mortises and tenons too.

I was thinking of making some endtables (as well as a workbench), but I
think I should
practice my joinery skills on smaller and less-expensive pieces first.

I was admiring their 9" Rockler woodworkers vise while I was there
($129.99). Might come in
handy for my woodworking bench...

Happy holidays (to all),
Bill