How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

"Bill" wrote in message
...
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill


Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.

"BobS" wrote in message
...

"Bill" wrote in message
...
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill


Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box
for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in
your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a
great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's
when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


Thank you, Bob S.
I assume you mean "Reliable Try-Square, No. 61" (which is 6" in length).
Getting-by with one would be just getting by, no?

Starrett sure has a dizzying arrays of fine products (starret.com), and I
thank
you for introducing me to them. However, in view of the "big picture" I
think I may
be wise to buy the Groz squares (or similar) and put the leftover $ towards
one of many
other tools that I need. Well, who knows, maybe I'll find one on sale! : )

Bill

On Nov 23, 10:52*pm, "BobS" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...





How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. *It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.

On Nov 23, 10:52*pm, "BobS" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...





How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. *It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.

"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box
for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in
your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a
great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's
when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be helpful in
installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out neither
Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked to have
found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis. I
contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

Bill

Bill wrote:
"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
helpful in installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
to have found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
I contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:
"BobS" wrote in message
...

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
helpful in installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
to have found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
I contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

Yep, $85 including shipping. My wife mentioned she would like to give me a
woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet. Did you see that Larry the
Cable
Guy skit, where he explains that the waitress rubbed his neck, and then he
thought
"Gosh, I should've asked for....!" ; ) Of course, the truth is that
we try to lead a
thrifty life style--at least I do. : )

Bill

Bill wrote:
My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...55&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Nov 23, 9:18*pm, "Bill" wrote:
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. *Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19..99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! *Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. * I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
Not too expensive either.
I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:02:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
scrawled the following:

On Nov 23, 9:18*pm, "Bill" wrote:
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. *Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! *Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. * I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
Not too expensive either.
I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

That's my mainstay in the field. In the shop, the little pair of
4-inchers from LVT do it for me quite often (but I keep a SSS in the
shop, too.)

--
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
-- Seneca

On Nov 24, 8:11*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:02:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
scrawled the following:





On Nov 23, 9:18*pm, "Bill" wrote:
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. *Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! *Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. * I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
Not too expensive either.
I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

That's my mainstay in the field. In the shop, the little pair of
4-inchers from LVT do it for me quite often (but I keep a SSS in the
shop, too.)

--
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Seneca

Bill mentioned he was a relatively new at this, so my suggestion was
based on cheap. not-too-bad accuracy, easy to handle.
A standard combo square is not that much more accurate IMHO unless you
drop some serious coin, but they make a fine depth gauge as well.
For tablesaw set up etc, a 6" machinist square does it all for me.
If more than a couple of thou mess you up, use thicker glue. G

On 11/23/2009 08:18 PM, Bill wrote:

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these lines?

An engineers square is usually quite stock-heavy. They're mostly useful
for machine setup. A try square is better for laying out joinery.

A good steel rule is accurate right out to each end, with easy to read
markings. A 12" is nice, and a 6" comes in handy for smaller items.
Some have markings on the end as well (useful for setting bit or blade
height). The 6" Shinwa (at Lee Valley and other places) does a good job.

A good combination square is useful. The Starrett or equivalent is
expensive but nice. Another option would be to take a 45/45/90 plastic
drafting triangle (generally very accurate) down to the big box store
and test all the cheaper squares until you find one that happens to be
accurate. Also check that the blade is straight.

Chris

Bill wrote:

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
seen me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should
I be collecting along these
lines?

I found this to be one of the most useful measuring/marking tools I've
acquired--I use it constantly.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...79&cat=1,42936

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99. I
think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
light between the blades. I'm happy.



--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
light between the blades. I'm happy.


If it only says .0006, it's per inch, not total error.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
$39.99. I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a
vise on my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
light between the blades. I'm happy.

The precision should be per inch.

While they are on the lower end of accuracy for squares used for setting up
metal cutting tools, their precision goes beyond anything that is likely to
be detectable in woodworking. Face it, there's nothing magic about
machining two pieces of steel flat and sticking them together at right
angles--they can do that as well in India or China as they do in the US and
Japan and the EU.

The place to spend the bucks is with a combination square--there the cheap
ones usually aren't square out of the box and if they are they don't stay
square very long--since they have moving parts, maintaining precision is
more difficult than for something that is permanently welded/brazed. I
finally spent the bucks for a Starrett and I'm glad I did. Browne & Sharpe
and Mitutoyo also make good ones.

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:56:42 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

Face it, there's nothing magic
about machining two pieces of steel flat and sticking them together at
right angles--they can do that as well in India or China as they do in
the US and Japan and the EU.

I've got one of the first squares from Stanley Rule and Level Company.
They put the handle and the blade in a jig and poured molten metal into a
matching set of holes. After all these years, it's still right on!

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS,
etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
$39.99. I
think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against
a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely
no
light between the blades. I'm happy.


Accuracy of that double square is stated as " better than 0.001" per
inch"

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...79&cat=1,42936

Bob S.

BobS wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS,
etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
$39.99. I
think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against
a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely
no
light between the blades. I'm happy.


A few years ago, long before I found this forum, I bought two
carpenter's squares, 24" and 8", believing that I was starting my
woodworking tool collection. I assume they may be good for deciding
flatness and maybe cutting some square (replacement) pieces of drywall
and as a replacement for a steel rule (?). I anticipated using them
as a try square on wood, but from what I've read here they don't make
the grade.. Does anyone here use carpenters squares for anything
(besides stairways and roofs)? Probably precise enough to use on
outdoor furniture, huh--or better than that?

Bill

Bill wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I've found engineer squares quite useful for machine setup. I carry a 2"
one in my shop apron for quick double-checks on various settings such as
jointer fence, etc.


I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

Probably not so much. A good tri-square (combination square) would work
better


A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?

Probably would recommend one of them first or in combination with the
engineers squares


If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
much for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...


They wouldn't be engineers squares if they were graduated.

Dropping them is definitely not a good thing.



At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

IMO, the set of engineer squares, with a combination square, and a good
straight-edge are a good start.




--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

Bill wrote:
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )



I'm cheap. For machine set up I use an inexpensive plastic drafting
triangles purchased at one of the local office supply places. I find
them more than adequate for woodworking.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

Nova wrote:
I'm cheap. For machine set up I use an inexpensive plastic drafting
triangles purchased at one of the local office supply places. I find
them more than adequate for woodworking.


And you never risk dulling a tooth or blade?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Bill" wrote in message
...
How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory
($19.99). Definitely a great tool
for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before
got such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )


You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how much
or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to the
Starett.

Joe wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how much
or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to the
Starett.



The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
squa You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

Bill

On 11/24/2009 01:46 PM, Bill wrote:

The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
squa You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

If you don't already have a known-good square, then that test works.
You need to make sure that the edge you're referencing the square
against is straight. If you're using a wooden surface, a knife will
give a finer line than a pencil.

If you've got a known-good square (a drafting triangle works fine) then
take it and the one being tested and place them both facing each other
against a known-straight edge. Hold it up against a light and see how
big the gap (if any) is between the two blades.

Chris

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how
much or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to
the Starett.


The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
squa You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

Bill

that's the test I would use, but with a very sharp marking knife instead of
a pencil.

jc

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, "Bill"
wrote:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
Definitely a great tool
for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
they were full of grit and nails, etc.
It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got
such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )



I use my Starrett combination square. It's a little bit better than
using an index card.

"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
message ...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.


If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.
I like that it is graduated--seems very usable indeed.

My thanks to everyone who has helped with this thread!

Bill

"Bill" wrote:

If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance,
do you just use the base of the double square?

No tools required, just a piece of scrap and a miter gage.

Lew

"Bill" wrote in message
...

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
message ...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.


If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.


If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a mile.

"CW" wrote:

If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or
throw it away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD
combination square a they are very versatile. You won't find a good
one at Home Depot. I would suggest Starrett (though I have a
Mititoyo). There are several top end combo squares that are as
accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very reasonable
charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for it.
Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at
your local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine,
you need accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will
transfer this inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many
pieces, all the errors will ad up to the point things won't fit.
This is particularly bad for the less experienced as they may not
know what the problem is, They will likely think it is something
they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up machine. You
often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork. For
some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a
mile.

Just curious.

Since most of the above applies to metal working machinery, how does
it transfer to wood working tolerances?

You can machine a metal piece +\- 0.001" and come back a month later
and find the piece to still be within spec assuming ambient
temperatures are similar.

Machine a piece of wood to the same +\- 0.001" in the morning and it
will be out of spec in the afternoon.

Basic reason any material that gets machined, gets glued up the same
day, at least in my boat yard.

IMHO, expecting to maintain wood tolerances greater than +\-1/64" over
any length of time is a stretch.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" writes:

Since most of the above applies to metal working machinery, how does
it transfer to wood working tolerances?

I'm not a big tolerance proponent, but making something like a 12" by
12" by 12" box with 1/8th" thickness required careful tolerances.
That's because small errors accumulate over distance and over cobined
angles.

I have a few combination squares. I bought a Starrett off eBay at a
good price. (I actually bought pieces separately - cheaper than buying
a set.) Note that there are two kinds of heads - hardened or not.
One has a pebbled finshish, and the other is smoother.

The Starrett, even though it's old and has a patina, is still very
readable. I have a Lufkin and Stanley rule one that has some slight
rust, and the readability of the Starrett is much nicer. It's brighter
and easier to read in dim light. There is not as much tarnish on
it. Perhaps it's the hardened blade. Also - the little pin you use to
scribe has a nice solid feel to it, compared to the other two combo
squares I have.

There's a certain joy in using a Starrett.

One of these days I'm going to get a 4" or 6" double square Starrett.
I like the Lee Valley DS ($20 on sale) very much, but one of these days....

On Nov 25, 2:39*am, "CW" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...







"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.

If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a mile.- Hide quoted text -

Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 2:39 am, "CW" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...







"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
...
"Bill" writes:

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do
you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.

If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end
combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at
your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors
will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely
think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for
woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a
mile.- Hide quoted text -

Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

If I get what you are asking, 1/64 out on a dovetail might as well be a
mile. Many people would be amazed at the tolerances that have to be held for
joints such as dovetails, box joints, mortise and tennon et.Got to admire
guys that can hand cut really nice joints. I've hand cut dovetails. They
worked but were anything but nice fitting, not to mention being ugly.

"Bill" writes:

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
message ...
I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.


If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?


I move the blade so that it's flush with the handle, so it has the
same shape as an engineering square.

It's also handy to measure router bit height, etc.

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
message ...
"Bill" writes:

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in
message ...
I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.


If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?


I move the blade so that it's flush with the handle, so it has the
same shape as an engineering square.

It's also handy to measure router bit height, etc.



I read a bunch of review on Starrett squares at amazon.com--they have
a lot of particularly satisfied customers!

Beginner's question: Say I use a fine square to mark a 3 or 4 inch
line "perfectly", with an awl or knife. How can I extend that line to, say,
10 or 20 inches with accuracy that would please Starrett's customers?
Does it suffice to place the knife blade into the first cut, and press the
edge of the Starrett rule up against it and continue cutting with the knife
against the rule?
If not, what is the SOP here?

A long while ago when I actually made a lot of projects, they always seemed
just a little bit off where ends were supposed to meet and such. Back then
I was probably using a ruler and a pencil--where, of course, the corner of a
ruler
could double as a square... I thought someone said that a good craftsman
doesn't blame his tools...but I agree that it seems to make sense to spend a
little on the
one tool that all of the rest of the tools are going to be set up with...
Thanks.

Bill

"Bill" writes:

Beginner's question: Say I use a fine square to mark a 3 or 4 inch
line "perfectly", with an awl or knife. How can I extend that line to, say,
10 or 20 inches with accuracy that would please Starrett's customers?

Well, a Starrett fan would have a 24" combination ruler. But I would
either make additional marks along the edge, and especially the other
end of the piece of wood, extending the line. and then use a
straightedge or framing square.

As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
cough::

Bill