On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:08:01 -0500, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

-MIKE- writes:

FWIW, The TS Aligner Jr can do several things
Mitre Gauge alignment
Sliding Table alignment
Spindle alignment on a drill press
Jointer blade height


The one I made for 15 bucks does all that.
It's a dial indicator on a stick, there's nothing ingenious about that. :-)

Interesting. Is there any write-up? For instance, how do you get the
table of a drill press to be square to the spindle?


For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

Phisherman wrote:
....
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--

dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least several
inches from the center point or the point that straight rod in the
chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of he hanger
should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is level. It's
kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by removing the blade
and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own, then checking that
the arbor just touches the table as he arm is swung and the motor pulled
along the arm.

dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it
lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the
way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

It's the same procedure as leveling the table on an RAS to the blade. You
can use a coat hanger, a dowel, anything that gives you a reference height.

He's assuming you have a radial drill press or a table that moves laterally
and in and out I think.

Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least several
inches from the center point or the point that straight rod in the
chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of he hanger
should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is level. It's
kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by removing the blade
and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own, then checking that
the arbor just touches the table as he arm is swung and the motor pulled
along the arm.

If the idea was/is the single-point, simply a chunk of 10ga wire bent
would be simpler. Maybe that's what phish was suggesting just use the
hanger for the wire, I'm still not sure...

--

Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own,
then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm is
swung and the motor pulled along the arm.

Now that's clever--bending the hanger.

dpb wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top.
No special tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight
own, then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm
is swung and the motor pulled along the arm.

If the idea was/is the single-point, simply a chunk of 10ga wire bent
would be simpler. Maybe that's what phish was suggesting just use the
hanger for the wire, I'm still not sure...

A single point doesn't give you levelling.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it
lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the
way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

It's the same procedure as leveling the table on an RAS to the blade. You
can use a coat hanger, a dowel, anything that gives you a reference
height.

He's assuming you have a radial drill press or a table that moves
laterally
and in and out I think.



No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck. Bring the
table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the wire comes close to
touching the table and turn the spindle by hand. Keep creeping down until
the end of the wire touches the table all the way around as you turn the
spindle. The further the end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the
more accurate it will be.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it
lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the
way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

It's the same procedure as leveling the table on an RAS to the blade. You
can use a coat hanger, a dowel, anything that gives you a reference
height.

He's assuming you have a radial drill press or a table that moves
laterally
and in and out I think.



No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck. Bring the
table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the wire comes close to
touching the table and turn the spindle by hand. Keep creeping down until
the end of the wire touches the table all the way around as you turn the
spindle. The further the end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the
more accurate it will be.

J. Clarke wrote:
....

Rotating it does (or can assuming a fair amount which was the reason for
the ??? to try to ken what was the way the suggester thought this works...)

--

J. Clarke wrote:
....

Rotating it does (or can assuming a fair amount which was the reason for
the ??? to try to ken what was the way the suggester thought this works...)

--

J. Clarke wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!
??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own,
then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm is
swung and the motor pulled along the arm.

Now that's clever--bending the hanger.

Again what I said -- it that's the intent, simpler to take the wire and
bend it w/o the hanger itself. Of course, it assumes it's mounted in
the chuck and up to the point at which the bend occurs is straight and
perpendicular, otherwise it rotates around a non-vertical axis...

--

J. Clarke wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
special tools needed!
??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own,
then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm is
swung and the motor pulled along the arm.

Now that's clever--bending the hanger.

Again what I said -- it that's the intent, simpler to take the wire and
bend it w/o the hanger itself. Of course, it assumes it's mounted in
the chuck and up to the point at which the bend occurs is straight and
perpendicular, otherwise it rotates around a non-vertical axis...

--

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"CW" wrote:

No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand.
Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the table all
the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the end of the
wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
=================================

Clever.


Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular and
straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...

The point isn't the quill itself bent, it's finding a piece of hanger wire
that isn't...

Whatever error there is in it is amplified by the radius or rotation...

The idea is ok, it's the implementation that has to be good to get it to
work in practice....

--


Machinists have been doing it this way for at least 150 years. I, myself,
have done it hundreds of times (yes, I am a machinist).
It doesn't even matter if the chuck or spindle is bent, this method will get
the table perpendicular to the spindles axis of rotation.

"dpb" wrote in message
...

The point isn't the quill itself bent, it's finding a piece of hanger wire
that isn't...

Whatever error there is in it is amplified by the radius or rotation...

The idea is ok, it's the implementation that has to be good to get it to
work in practice....

--


Machinists have been doing it this way for at least 150 years. I, myself,
have done it hundreds of times (yes, I am a machinist).
It doesn't even matter if the chuck or spindle is bent, this method will get
the table perpendicular to the spindles axis of rotation.

On Dec 1, 4:56*am, Phisherman wrote:

For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. *When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. * No special
tools needed!

Very entertaining thread! Thanks guys. With all the stress and
anxiety these days, I really appreciate a good laugh every now and
then.

Yep, all you need to do is bend up a wire coat-hanger and sweep the
drill press table with it's tip. Keeping in mind that it's going to
be all springy and bouncy, if you're good at making such subjective
"hear the scrape" judgments, then you can get adequate results.
Primitive, but feasible. Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators. It reminds me of the guy who says "I don't need to
know how to read; I learn all I need to know by watching TV and
listening to the radio." The excuses for some people's aversion to
dial indicators often sounds just like the ignorant excuses that
illiterate people use to justify their situation. They put themselves
thorough all sorts of absurd and convoluted procedures so that they
can cope in a world where everyone else can read. A bent up coat
hanger? Geez! Cough up the $10-$15 for a dial indicator and learn
some useful skills.

shameless_plug
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
table saw at:

http://www.tablesawalignment.com

Sign up today!
/shameless_plug

I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
people buy it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

On Dec 1, 4:56*am, Phisherman wrote:

For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. *When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. * No special
tools needed!

Very entertaining thread! Thanks guys. With all the stress and
anxiety these days, I really appreciate a good laugh every now and
then.

Yep, all you need to do is bend up a wire coat-hanger and sweep the
drill press table with it's tip. Keeping in mind that it's going to
be all springy and bouncy, if you're good at making such subjective
"hear the scrape" judgments, then you can get adequate results.
Primitive, but feasible. Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators. It reminds me of the guy who says "I don't need to
know how to read; I learn all I need to know by watching TV and
listening to the radio." The excuses for some people's aversion to
dial indicators often sounds just like the ignorant excuses that
illiterate people use to justify their situation. They put themselves
thorough all sorts of absurd and convoluted procedures so that they
can cope in a world where everyone else can read. A bent up coat
hanger? Geez! Cough up the $10-$15 for a dial indicator and learn
some useful skills.

shameless_plug
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
table saw at:

http://www.tablesawalignment.com

Sign up today!
/shameless_plug

I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
people buy it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

Ed Bennett wrote:
Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.


How is that goofy? We're talking woodworking, here.
If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.



Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.

I have one and I use it.
I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.



shameless_plug
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
table saw at:

http://www.tablesawalignment.com

Sign up today!
/shameless_plug

I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
people buy it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Ed Bennett wrote:
Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.


How is that goofy? We're talking woodworking, here.
If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.



Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.

I have one and I use it.
I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.



shameless_plug
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
table saw at:

http://www.tablesawalignment.com

Sign up today!
/shameless_plug

I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
people buy it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Nov 23, 10:52*pm, "BobS" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...





How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. *It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.

On Nov 23, 10:52*pm, "BobS" wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...





How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
BS, etc?
Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
my workbench to be (so I
need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
so much
for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. *Some of you have
seen
me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. *What should I be
collecting along these
lines?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. *It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.

The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length.
If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in -
that side is high....

It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.

Martin

dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--

The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length.
If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in -
that side is high....

It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.

Martin

dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--

-MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300

(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
of the whole thing.

Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
the indicator touches the table.

Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
way around.

Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

-MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300

(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
of the whole thing.

Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
the indicator touches the table.

Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
way around.

Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Dec 2, 1:28*am, Morris Dovey wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:
Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators. *
Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. *:-)

Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like

* *http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300

(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
of the whole thing.

Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
the indicator touches the table.

Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
way around.

Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

That's how set the table/quill alignment. 'Cept I lay down a slab of
quartz down on the table to give the DI a nice smooth ride.

J. Clarke wrote:
....

The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin the chuck
is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to the quill--you then
align the table to that circle.

Indeed, which is what I've said...

_IF_ that circle is rotating slightly off-axis, the length of the wire
to the point amplifies that and you align the table to it...

It relies for accuracy on the axis of rotation being colinear w/ the
quill precisely...

--

dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
...

The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin
the chuck is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to
the quill--you then align the table to that circle.

Indeed, which is what I've said...

_IF_ that circle is rotating slightly off-axis, the length of the wire
to the point amplifies that and you align the table to it...

It relies for accuracy on the axis of rotation being colinear w/ the
quill precisely...

Fine, you keep doing it however you're doing and the rest of us will go back
to working our wood.

Morris Dovey wrote:
Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300

(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
of the whole thing.

Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
the indicator touches the table.

Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
way around.

Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set.


On sale for 20 bucks. I have a coupon for free shipping from Enco.
Hmmmm, might have to pick up at least a set of metal sticks. :-)
That would've saved me some time making my TS jig.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:
Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.

How is that goofy?

When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not
ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the
spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you
can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has
no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with
relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of
error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.

We're talking woodworking, here.

Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the
machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square.
It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!

If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting
to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand
corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square
against a drill bit isn't goofy.

I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.

People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would
you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent
that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to
within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close
fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a
friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.

I have one and I use it.
I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.

That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for
more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired
new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques
that are prone to all sorts of error.

BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made
alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The
jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all
commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will
be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive
experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial
indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who
knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is
constructed (i.e. plans).

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part.
It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos
and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation,
that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of
people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now
you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.

I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you
don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a
TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and
support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own
personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept
employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll
tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed)
generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you
go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine
shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and
utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price
and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher
than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will
put your cost under water.

BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.

Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
do have to sign up.

I hope that this answers all of your questions.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

"Ed Bennett" wrote in message
news:6c79126b-5841-4b98-84af-

BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.

Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
do have to sign up.


FWIW, I didn't get past the registration page.



I hope that this answers all of your questions.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

Ed Bennett wrote:
On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:
Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.
How is that goofy?

When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not
ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the
spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you
can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has
no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with
relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of
error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.


None of my bits are tapered.
I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
Nothing you said is an issue.

I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.


We're talking woodworking, here.

Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the
machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square.
It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!


Yeah, because that's the same as what I said.


If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting
to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand
corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square
against a drill bit isn't goofy.


This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.


I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.

People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would
you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent
that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to
within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close
fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a
friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.


Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.


Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators.
I have one and I use it.
I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.

That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for
more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired
new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques
that are prone to all sorts of error.

BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made
alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The
jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all
commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will
be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive
experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial
indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who
knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is
constructed (i.e. plans).

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part.
It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos
and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation,
that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of
people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now
you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.

I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you
don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a
TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and
support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own
personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept
employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll
tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed)
generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you
go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine
shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and
utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price
and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher
than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will
put your cost under water.


I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
bunch.
I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
make you fell inferior for not joining their club.

And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
thingamajigs.

Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)


BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.

Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
do have to sign up.

I hope that this answers all of your questions.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
bunch.
I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

You're ****ing in the wind arguing with Ed ... it won't get you
anywhere. Just do yourself a favor and DAGS ... you'll quickly find this
subject has been beaten to death over at least a decade, as well as find
out quickly that some of us aren't the only cranky old farts around here.

That said, his TS-Aligner Jr is above just being an excellent tool, it
is also something of a rarity in manufacturing in the US in this day and
age. While many may not consider it a necessity, just like the Fein
Multi-tool, there is little else that will do the job as well when you
really need it.

Suffice it to say, if you used one just once, you wouldn't want to go
back to anything else.

Let sleeping dogs lie ... a word to the wise.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:06:04 -0600, dpb wrote:

J. Clarke wrote:
...

The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin the chuck
is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to the quill--you then
align the table to that circle.

Indeed, which is what I've said...

_IF_ that circle is rotating slightly off-axis, the length of the wire
to the point amplifies that and you align the table to it...

It relies for accuracy on the axis of rotation being colinear w/ the
quill precisely...

This method won't measure runout or even that the quill is parallel
(much less collinear) to the axis of rotation, only that the plane of
the table is perpendicular to the axis of rotation.

On Dec 2, 6:33*pm, Swingman wrote:


Let sleeping dogs lie ... a word to the wise.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...batoy/dOUG.jpg

Grazes the surface that is :

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length.
If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in -
that side is high....

It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.

Martin

dpb wrote:
Phisherman wrote:
...
For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
would be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--

On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:52:28 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-
scrawled the following:

Ed Bennett wrote:
On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
Ed Bennett wrote:
Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.
How is that goofy?

When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not
ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the
spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you
can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has
no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with
relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of
error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.


None of my bits are tapered.

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"


This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.

I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his
expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. shrug

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

Larry Jaques wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"


Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.



This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.


There should be a question mark at the end of that sentence.
Since you used a colon to extend it, the entire sentence is a question.


I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his
expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. shrug


"were were?" Ok, I'll give you that one as a typo or a cut-n-paste
error.

See what you get for sticking up for me? :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

I've measured femto-seconds on a consistent basis.
Martin
-MIKE- wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

None of my bits are tapered.

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"


Really, Larry? You're that guy.
Ok, then..... :-)

My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...

If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are."
In my useage, bits can be counted.



This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut
with an axe.


There should be a question mark at the end of that sentence.
Since you used a colon to extend it, the entire sentence is a question.


I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his
expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. shrug


"were were?" Ok, I'll give you that one as a typo or a cut-n-paste
error.

See what you get for sticking up for me? :-p