"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...



The manager types who want a global economy, and who may have been put
through bidness school by fathers who worked with their hands, want
access to cheap labor and goods.

No! You do! You want cheap cars, cheap lettuce and cheap TV's. Hell, I
want cheap cars and TV's (I don't like lettuce.)

Why is IT any different?
It's a burdensome cost on a business - like any milling machine in a plant.

You want cheap long distance?
You're forcing me to look for folks who can write software for $10 hour.

The problem is *us*.

In article ,
says...
The answer is to throw out our current tax system and replace it totally
with import duties. I don't care who makes it, if it enters the US it
gets hit with a tax that is in relation to the ratio of wages in our
country and the other country.

The last time we set it up that way, the North fought the South because
the South favored free trade and Lincoln was afraid all the federal taxes
would dry up :-).

Other than that, I think it's a great idea.

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

mttt asks:

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.


Tom,

I thought you said you picked the Chinese supplier for the low price.
I'm sending software projects to India for the exact same reason.

No void involved. Just "bidness" in a Global Economy.
Did I miss your point?

I think you did. He was talking about importing people to do jobs kept here,
not exporting jobs to other areas.

Different tree, so if you want to compare apples to apples, don't shake the
lemon tree.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

mttt writes:


The manager types who want a global economy, and who may have been put
through bidness school by fathers who worked with their hands, want
access to cheap labor and goods.

No! You do! You want cheap cars, cheap lettuce and cheap TV's. Hell, I
want cheap cars and TV's (I don't like lettuce.)


Well, I'm perfectly willing to drive used vehicles. Mostly I do anyway. Bought
my first new car in more than a decade about 3-1/2 years ago and have regretted
it with consistency. Dump the dealer and dump the brand and I'll still buy used
next time. As far as lettuce goes, I can grow my own most of the year, thanks.
And TV...yeah, I like cheap TVs. I hardly ever watch, so it's not worth a lot
of money to me.

But there's cheap and there's cheap. And we are now living the results of a
decade of cheap #2, with some companies aiming at cheap #3.

Absolutely the only thing that matters for far too many companies today, large
and small, is the bottom line. How you get there is becoming totally
irrelevant.

And that is unfortunate.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Are you looking for someone who can write software for $10/hour? I'll
take it!

You want cheap long distance?
You're forcing me to look for folks who can write software for $10 hour.

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Yes, I do. Two things that come to my mind immediately. (1) I will not live
long enough to see China in Japans place. (3) By that time, they will figure
out how to industrialize Africa. A lot of that country would love to make a
dollar a day.


You mean "continent", not country.

Apparently, it wasn't to hard to figure out. You did it.

"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Yes, I do. Two things that come to my mind immediately. (1) I will not
live
long enough to see China in Japans place. (3) By that time, they will
figure
out how to industrialize Africa. A lot of that country would love to make
a
dollar a day.


You mean "continent", not country.

So, run for office.
I'll send you a coupla bucks.
If I get to go to one of them big dinners and eat my fill of chicken.
Ain't it just so appropriate that low level political dinners serve
chicken?
My guess is that the menu is different on the level where the serious
money gets thrown around.

The food is different. I'm not about to run for any political office,
though. I have a bad tendency to say what I mean, and that rules out
public office. Also, I don't like the people I'd have to work with. I
admit to having relatives 9in-laws) who are politicians, lawyers and
democrats as well, to my shame. They show pictures of themselves with
an ex-1st lady. I try to ignore their jobs and just deal with them as
people, but there are problems with that as well. Run for office?
After I cut my throat, maybe.
Dave in fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

Well how about us poor Europeans,we have been members of the european
market for years,faithfully paid our taxes so the assholes in Brussels
can make rules and standards for how a carrott should look or what
constitutes a real chocolate bar or whether a farmer who has been making
cheese for centuries is making it to their standards.....well those
assholes have just given permission to Poland Czechoslovakia hungary and
**** load of other third world ex iron curtain countries to join our
happy band of west european lands.What effect will this have on my
working life.Poland had the cheek to say that they would only join if
their farmers got the same subsidies as the French.well **** them cheeky
*******s.I will not employ any of them even if it means me going
under,how long will it be before whats left of the manufacturing
industry ends up going east...they work for peanuts and they ain`t
monkeys.My neighbour has a holiday house in Czechoslovakia and had some
doors made there for less than I pay for the material.Globalisation
sucks big time,I was once quite left of middle in my political ideas but
they are beginning to swing to the right and that hurts
grunt grunt very unhappy so spare a thought for our futures as well and
dont buy Rojek stuff
Russell

Without getting to deeply involved. Believe it or not that was the original
idea of paying for the government. However that was back when an airplane
didn't cost the government 40 million to build neither did a ship. It
didn't have a social welfare program, it didn't have an FBI, CIA, Or
homeland security. Most politicians had their own businesses/plantations so
didn't need to make over $100,000 per year off of politicking and most
payments were mad by states. States paid entirely for schools and
education. I could continue.
Tariffs aren't the answer for the most part either although I think "Free
Trade" has changed our economy for sometimes the worst.
Anyway yeah I think some of the problem is how we view our business vs.
china.

--


"Joe Willmann" wrote in message
.77...
Tom Watson wrote in
:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.


Well, that sorta goes to my buried point.


The answer is to throw out our current tax system and replace it totally
with import duties. I don't care who makes it, if it enters the US it
gets hit with a tax that is in relation to the ratio of wages in our
country and the other country.

Over time this tax policy will motivate companies to locate here and
hire here. If another country is at our econimic level then there is an
even playing field and the import duties would be minimal.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...


Absolutely the only thing that matters for far too many companies today,
large
and small, is the bottom line. How you get there is becoming totally
irrelevant.

And that is unfortunate.

Enron's, Tyco's aside - it is about making a profit.
Here's what I believe:
- I believe the vast majority of businesses operate ethically.
- I believe publicly traded companies are obligated to increase profits
- I believe we all profit when they profit.

Call me naive - but I've been working for Fortune 500 companies for almost
30 years now.
Many of those for one of the "damned Pharmaceuticals".
And now, I'm in a position to determine an offshoring strategy for the IT
org.

What a long, strange trip it's been...

"tmbg" wrote in message
news


Are you looking for someone who can write software for $10/hour? I'll
take it!

What kind of software can you write?
What's your domain expertise?
Gimme a short C.V.

Charlie,
We all want profit in one fashion or another. People leave the house to
work at a job for the money. To think otherwise is the height of naiveté.
Sure some people love what they do, some are wealthy enough not to be
forced, however, most decide to work to support themselves and their
families.

I know some penny pinching (HF and Walmart shoppers) people that care little
for any repercussions as long as they get their whatever a buck or two
cheaper. Our society and shopping habits have created the borgs, mega-malls
and other such places of get it cheap, screw the customer service. The
people line up like lemmings and take it - day after day.

I try to practice what I preach. I do not shop at HF, Walmart or Costco but
I'm stuck with the borg for reasons we all know well. I try to buy from
local shopkeepers whenever possible and try to buy the best quality product
for a good price. Do I deny myself because it's not on sale? Sometimes.
Mostly, if I need it, I go and buy it. Do I stop at the check out door to
*show my receipt* before being allowed to leave - not a chance. (Add a
dozen more rants about poor service here.)

Work hard, think for yourself, don't settle for less, love and play hard,
give to the poor and needy and you will be successful and happy.

Phew!
Dave




"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Snip

Well, I'm perfectly willing to drive used vehicles. Mostly I do anyway.
Bought
my first new car in more than a decade about 3-1/2 years ago and have
regretted
it with consistency. Dump the dealer and dump the brand and I'll still buy
used
next time. As far as lettuce goes, I can grow my own most of the year,
thanks.
And TV...yeah, I like cheap TVs. I hardly ever watch, so it's not worth a
lot
of money to me.

But there's cheap and there's cheap. And we are now living the results of
a
decade of cheap #2, with some companies aiming at cheap #3.

Absolutely the only thing that matters for far too many companies today,
large
and small, is the bottom line. How you get there is becoming totally
irrelevant.

And that is unfortunate.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no
other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

mttt responds:


Absolutely the only thing that matters for far too many companies today,
large
and small, is the bottom line. How you get there is becoming totally
irrelevant.

And that is unfortunate.

Enron's, Tyco's aside - it is about making a profit.

No ****. That's no surprise. My statement didn't say there was a damned thing
wrong with making a profit. As someone who has spent all but 14 months since
'68 in business for himself, I realize that's the reason for all the work.

But there are ways to make profits and then there are ways to make more profit.
Too many companies are going for #1. Enron and Tyco and Andersen may be glaring
examples of rotten apples of immense size, but if you look around at tool
manufacturers, for one group, you'll find those who are moving their legal
locations offshore to escape U.S. taxes and others doing similar fun things.
Why? To add another 50 million bucks to the gross profits line.

Sorry, but I do not believe that's ethical, and I do believe it is widespread.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

The problem is easy, you have to look no farther than yourself (me too).
All of us USA citizens are to blame. The solution is us also, but we're
doomed. Why, a whole host of reasons.
1. We want a social safety net called welfare, cause we might lose our job
one day and we want the government to fall back on. Well that cost all of
us, individual income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and a small
amount each US made product we buy cause it comes out of the bottom line.
2. We want a retirement system call social security, guess who pays, you ,
the company you work for when they match the social security tax that is
taken out of your paycheck. And the people that buy our products because
it’s a cost that has to be paid.
3. We want an old age medical system called Medicare. Same cost
implication as above.
4. Now we want cheap prescription drugs and healthcare. Guess who pays,
companies, you and I in the form of taxes, and those who buy our
products. Nothing from the government is free, it’s our tax money!
5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and vision
insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability…… It all goes into the bottom line so our products are more
expensive.

I had to laugh the other day when one of the technicians was ragging on
the current administration about how they were taking care of the rich,
and how he didn’t make enough to consider himself as middle class
anymore. Of course he did this just after getting off his cell phone on
a call from his wife on her cell phone going over details on their new
2700 sq ft ranch (I understand it plush, not cheap either, and they
haven’t sold their existing home). Of course this was before he left for
the day in his 2 year old $35,000 pickup he bought new. Yes his wife
works, but makes less than him, and they haven’t inherited any money
either. TRUE STORY!!!

Folks, this class warfare blaming the rich, and the politicians is
blinding us to the truth, anything we hit our employers or the government
for in income or benefits costs us! And we just keep digging the hole
deeper!!! Yes I have my cell phone, and comfy home, and lots of
unnecessary stuff, I’ll claim social security, want better roads, and
cheaper healthcare insurance, so I am just as guilty as the next guy, but
I don’t vote for and don’t want more government, do you? What really
****es me off these days is people want cheaper healthcare insurance. So
we have no or low co-payments, but it’s now costing us weekly premiums out
of our paychecks cause everybody goes to the Dr. when they sneeze. The
people that use the service should pay. Everybody else should pay a
reasonable amount for the risk of a costly medical issue. There is a
large portion of our society that beats the drum of socialism that doesn’t
label it socialism. The call it the “government should do it or our
employeer should”. Well the government gets all it’s money from us folks,
and the products we provide is our wages and benifits, same products I
provide, you buy.
11. Nothing will change until each person takes responsibility for
themselves and their family, ask less of their employeer, local, state and
federal government. i.e. we’re doomed. The majority cost of each US
product we buy is made up of wages, taxes and benifits. A business is
considered successfull if they profit 10 cents on the dollar. Oh, buy the
way, that 10 cents of profit comes to you and me in our mutual funds,
pensions (equities), Certificate of Deposits.........

Free enterprise works, trouble is the rest of the world hasn't gotten
social security, welfare, healthcare, good roads yet so their cheaper. So
we buy from them more and more.

Phil


Tom Watson wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

The problem is easy, you have to look no farther than yourself (me too).
All of us USA citizens are to blame. The solution is us also, but we're
doomed. Why, a whole host of reasons.
1. We want a social safety net called welfare, cause we might lose our job
one day and we want the government to fall back on. Well that cost all of
us, individual income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and a small
amount each US made product we buy cause it comes out of the bottom line.
2. We want a retirement system call social security, guess who pays, you ,
the company you work for when they match the social security tax that is
taken out of your paycheck. And the people that buy our products because
it’s a cost that has to be paid.
3. We want an old age medical system called Medicare. Same cost
implication as above.
4. Now we want cheap prescription drugs and healthcare. Guess who pays,
companies, you and I in the form of taxes, and those who buy our
products. Nothing from the government is free, it’s our tax money!
5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and vision
insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability…… It all goes into the bottom line so our products are more
expensive.

I had to laugh the other day when one of the technicians was ragging on
the current administration about how they were taking care of the rich,
and how he didn’t make enough to consider himself as middle class
anymore. Of course he did this just after getting off his cell phone on
a call from his wife on her cell phone going over details on their new
2700 sq ft ranch (I understand it plush, not cheap either, and they
haven’t sold their existing home). Of course this was before he left for
the day in his 2 year old $35,000 pickup he bought new. Yes his wife
works, but makes less than him, and they haven’t inherited any money
either. TRUE STORY!!!

Folks, this class warfare blaming the rich, and the politicians is
blinding us to the truth, anything we hit our employers or the government
for in income or benefits costs us! And we just keep digging the hole
deeper!!! Yes I have my cell phone, and comfy home, and lots of
unnecessary stuff, I’ll claim social security, want better roads, and
cheaper healthcare insurance, so I am just as guilty as the next guy, but
I don’t vote for and don’t want more government, do you? What really
****es me off these days is people want cheaper healthcare insurance. So
we have no or low co-payments, but it’s now costing us weekly premiums out
of our paychecks cause everybody goes to the Dr. when they sneeze. The
people that use the service should pay. Everybody else should pay a
reasonable amount for the risk of a costly medical issue. There is a
large portion of our society that beats the drum of socialism that doesn’t
label it socialism. The call it the “government should do it or our
employeer should”. Well the government gets all it’s money from us folks,
and the products we provide is our wages and benifits, same products I
provide, you buy.
11. Nothing will change until each person takes responsibility for
themselves and their family, ask less of their employeer, local, state and
federal government. i.e. we’re doomed. The majority cost of each US
product we buy is made up of wages, taxes and benifits. A business is
considered successfull if they profit 10 cents on the dollar. Oh, buy the
way, that 10 cents of profit comes to you and me in our mutual funds,
pensions (equities), Certificate of Deposits.........

Free enterprise works, trouble is the rest of the world hasn't gotten
social security, welfare, healthcare, good roads yet so their cheaper. So
we buy from them more and more.

Phil


Tom Watson wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,
"Phil" wrote in message
...
The problem is easy, you have to look no farther than yourself (me too).
All of us USA citizens are to blame. The solution is us also, but we're
doomed. Why, a whole host of reasons.
1. We want a social safety net called welfare, cause we might lose our job
one day and we want the government to fall back on. Well that cost all of
us, individual income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and a small
amount each US made product we buy cause it comes out of the bottom line.
2. We want a retirement system call social security, guess who pays, you ,
the company you work for when they match the social security tax that is
taken out of your paycheck. And the people that buy our products because
it's a cost that has to be paid.
3. We want an old age medical system called Medicare. Same cost
implication as above.
4. Now we want cheap prescription drugs and healthcare. Guess who pays,
companies, you and I in the form of taxes, and those who buy our
products. Nothing from the government is free, it's our tax money!
5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and vision
insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability.. It all goes into the bottom line so our products are more
expensive.

I had to laugh the other day when one of the technicians was ragging on
the current administration about how they were taking care of the rich,
and how he didn't make enough to consider himself as middle class
anymore. Of course he did this just after getting off his cell phone on
a call from his wife on her cell phone going over details on their new
2700 sq ft ranch (I understand it plush, not cheap either, and they
haven't sold their existing home). Of course this was before he left for
the day in his 2 year old $35,000 pickup he bought new. Yes his wife
works, but makes less than him, and they haven't inherited any money
either. TRUE STORY!!!

Folks, this class warfare blaming the rich, and the politicians is
blinding us to the truth, anything we hit our employers or the government
for in income or benefits costs us! And we just keep digging the hole
deeper!!! Yes I have my cell phone, and comfy home, and lots of
unnecessary stuff, I'll claim social security, want better roads, and
cheaper healthcare insurance, so I am just as guilty as the next guy, but
I don't vote for and don't want more government, do you? What really
****es me off these days is people want cheaper healthcare insurance. So
we have no or low co-payments, but it's now costing us weekly premiums out
of our paychecks cause everybody goes to the Dr. when they sneeze. The
people that use the service should pay. Everybody else should pay a
reasonable amount for the risk of a costly medical issue. There is a
large portion of our society that beats the drum of socialism that doesn't
label it socialism. The call it the "government should do it or our
employeer should". Well the government gets all it's money from us folks,
and the products we provide is our wages and benifits, same products I
provide, you buy.
11. Nothing will change until each person takes responsibility for
themselves and their family, ask less of their employeer, local, state and
federal government. i.e. we're doomed. The majority cost of each US
product we buy is made up of wages, taxes and benifits. A business is
considered successfull if they profit 10 cents on the dollar. Oh, buy the
way, that 10 cents of profit comes to you and me in our mutual funds,
pensions (equities), Certificate of Deposits.........

Free enterprise works, trouble is the rest of the world hasn't gotten
social security, welfare, healthcare, good roads yet so their cheaper. So
we buy from them more and more.

Phil


Tom Watson wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Oh wow thats brilliant.

CW wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,
"Phil" wrote in message
...
The problem is easy, you have to look no farther than yourself (me too).
All of us USA citizens are to blame. The solution is us also, but we're
doomed. Why, a whole host of reasons.
1. We want a social safety net called welfare, cause we might lose our job
one day and we want the government to fall back on. Well that cost all of
us, individual income taxes, corporate taxes, sales taxes, and a small
amount each US made product we buy cause it comes out of the bottom line.
2. We want a retirement system call social security, guess who pays, you ,
the company you work for when they match the social security tax that is
taken out of your paycheck. And the people that buy our products because
it's a cost that has to be paid.
3. We want an old age medical system called Medicare. Same cost
implication as above.
4. Now we want cheap prescription drugs and healthcare. Guess who pays,
companies, you and I in the form of taxes, and those who buy our
products. Nothing from the government is free, it's our tax money!
5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and vision
insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability.. It all goes into the bottom line so our products are more
expensive.

I had to laugh the other day when one of the technicians was ragging on
the current administration about how they were taking care of the rich,
and how he didn't make enough to consider himself as middle class
anymore. Of course he did this just after getting off his cell phone on
a call from his wife on her cell phone going over details on their new
2700 sq ft ranch (I understand it plush, not cheap either, and they
haven't sold their existing home). Of course this was before he left for
the day in his 2 year old $35,000 pickup he bought new. Yes his wife
works, but makes less than him, and they haven't inherited any money
either. TRUE STORY!!!

Folks, this class warfare blaming the rich, and the politicians is
blinding us to the truth, anything we hit our employers or the government
for in income or benefits costs us! And we just keep digging the hole
deeper!!! Yes I have my cell phone, and comfy home, and lots of
unnecessary stuff, I'll claim social security, want better roads, and
cheaper healthcare insurance, so I am just as guilty as the next guy, but
I don't vote for and don't want more government, do you? What really
****es me off these days is people want cheaper healthcare insurance. So
we have no or low co-payments, but it's now costing us weekly premiums out
of our paychecks cause everybody goes to the Dr. when they sneeze. The
people that use the service should pay. Everybody else should pay a
reasonable amount for the risk of a costly medical issue. There is a
large portion of our society that beats the drum of socialism that doesn't
label it socialism. The call it the "government should do it or our
employeer should". Well the government gets all it's money from us folks,
and the products we provide is our wages and benifits, same products I
provide, you buy.
11. Nothing will change until each person takes responsibility for
themselves and their family, ask less of their employeer, local, state and
federal government. i.e. we're doomed. The majority cost of each US
product we buy is made up of wages, taxes and benifits. A business is
considered successfull if they profit 10 cents on the dollar. Oh, buy the
way, that 10 cents of profit comes to you and me in our mutual funds,
pensions (equities), Certificate of Deposits.........

Free enterprise works, trouble is the rest of the world hasn't gotten
social security, welfare, healthcare, good roads yet so their cheaper. So
we buy from them more and more.

Phil


Tom Watson wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

What H-1B problem Mark?

Rob

--



******PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW EMAIL ADDRESS******



Please visit our (recently updated) web site:
http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
s.com...
In article ,
says...
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

... snip

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.



... and there lies the heart of the problem. For all of the anger at
Bush's approach, the other side doesn't like Bush's plan because it
doesn't go far enough and is not an all-out stated amnesty for these
folks. You don't see either side pushing to make the borders secure and
stop illegal immigrants. Neither side is pushing to stop the H-1B
problem for professional immigrants either.

Yep, where ya gonna go?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Phil wrote:

4. Now we want cheap prescription drugs and healthcare. Guess who
pays, companies, you and I in the form of taxes, and those who buy our
products. Nothing from the government is free, it’s our tax money!

Now, if the government would _shorten_ drug patent length to encourage
generic medicines and allow foreign dugs to be imported you would have a
point.

The government, though, is taking the side of the big business (drug
companies) and so that's what's really pushing the costs of health care
up. This has nothing to do with taxes.

5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and
vision insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability…… It all goes into the bottom line so our products are
more expensive.

This is not a new concept... I would buy it if everyione had started
demanding health care in recent years. What is truly happening is health
care cost is going up, with benefits going down. How do you explain
that?

What really ****es me off these days is people want cheaper
healthcare insurance.

Actually we want insureance prices not ro rise. Where is the big
movement for cheaper health insurance?

There are lots of examples, though, of health insurance costs rising so
much that companies have started to pass most of (or all of) the
insurance costs to the employee. Simply look at the grocery worker case
in southern California.

So we have no or low co-payments, but it’s now
costing us weekly premiums out of our paychecks cause everybody goes
to the Dr. when they sneeze.

You DO have the option of not belonging to a health insurance plan you
know. Why not just get out of it?

The people that use the service should
pay.

Do you even know what the business model of insurance is???? Jeeez!

Everybody else should pay a reasonable amount for the risk of a
costly medical issue.

There are plans for that. If that's what you really want, get out of
your HMO/PPO and join one of those you describe. There are dirt cheap
plans that come with a $5000/year deductible. This is exactly what you
describe. Don't attack HMOs because the "M" in "HMO" stands for
"maintenance, which means "regular doctor visits."

There is a large portion of our society that
beats the drum of socialism that doesn’t label it socialism.

Absolutely, this surprises you?

11. Nothing will change until each person takes responsibility for
themselves and their family, ask less of their employeer, local, state
and federal government.

Won't happen. Governments exist precisely because this will never
happen.

If you don't have police, the dirt bag with the bigger gun will win. If
you do not have structured laws and a court system to enforce them you
have no progress. If you want to live a life without outside support at
all (ie, from the govt), you better set up a farm, and buy lots of guns.

US product we buy is made up of wages, taxes and benifits. A business
is considered successfull if they profit 10 cents on the dollar. Oh,
buy the way, that 10 cents of profit comes to you and me in our mutual
funds, pensions (equities), Certificate of Deposits.........

Dude, you need to study economics. This makes no sense.

Free enterprise works, trouble is the rest of the world hasn't gotten
social security, welfare, healthcare, good roads yet so their cheaper.
So we buy from them more and more.

You really, really, really need to study economics. This is not how the
world works. Chinese labor is NOT cheaper because they pay less for
medical insurance. The solution to our problem is NOT to let our roads
deteriorate to an Afghanistan level. You need to study economics.

--
gabriel

CW wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,

The point being?

--
gabriel

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:20:23 +0000, gabriel wrote:


This is not a new concept... I would buy it if everyione had started
demanding health care in recent years. What is truly happening is health
care cost is going up, with benefits going down. How do you explain
that?

Lawyers.

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:14:49 GMT, "mttt"
wrote:


Call me naive - but I've been working for Fortune 500 companies for almost
30 years now.
Many of those for one of the "damned Pharmaceuticals".
And now, I'm in a position to determine an offshoring strategy for the IT
org.

What a long, strange trip it's been...



Was it perhaps "Smith Pharmaceuticals" who begat "Smith Kline", who
begat "Smith-Kline-Beecham", who begat "Smith-Kline-Beckham", who
begat Glaxo-Smith-Kline", as they continued on their way?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:50:36 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.


No, the problem ain't easy, as some have suggested.

The problem doesn't even appear to be a problem to the vast majority
of people.

The problem is not solvable on the personal level, as some have
suggested.

The problem doesn't even appear to be a problem to the vast majority
of people.

The problem with the problem is that it doesn't even appear to be a
problem with the vast majority of people.

It's a problem.

I'm just wondering about how we are going to go about solving the
problem.

Y'all can get partisan- political about it if you want.

That means dick.

We have an economic problem that will lead to a revolution in our
lifetime if the problem is not addressed.

What are we going to do about it?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Just about as brilliant as your standard "screw the people and tell them
they are better off for it"mantra.


"Phil" wrote in message
...
Oh wow thats brilliant.

CW wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,
"Phil" wrote in message
...
The problem is easy, you have to look no farther than yourself (me
too).
All of us USA citizens are to blame. The solution is us also, but
we're

The point being that it was not worth reading.

"gabriel" wrote in message
rvers.com...
CW wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,

The point being?

--
gabriel

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:10:18 -0600, Astral****ant ScoobeyDoo
wrote:


Don't define standard of living in inches of television screen.

Did I?



Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:04:05 -0500, "George"
wrote:

They speak better English than those welfare mothers?

I have more language problems (and repeats) from government affirmative
hires than the TAs at school, who are non-native speakers of American.


Aside from the fact that the above is an incredibly tortured piece of
language; I haven't the slightest idea of what you are trying to say.

You do speak English as a first language?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article ,
otforme says...
Tom Watson responds:

GRL notes:

The light at the end of the tunnel is that really low labor rates cannot
last as a country develops economically. Remember when stuff from Japan was
cheap?

True, but we're not going to enjoy the trip downhill.


And their trip uphill ain't gonna happen fast enough for our trip
downslope to be avoided to a degree that doesn't cause serious social
problems in this country.

When I was a small bean going to Grammar School we studied
Citizenship, wherein we learned about the interdependence of the
electorate and the elected and studied things like the "Good of the
Commonweal".

They've dropped Citizenship in favor of the study of Consumer Issues.

Makes a man want to throw up.

Or "shop till he drops." What a social slogan that was. Unfortunately, it's
also true. I know middle class people who use shopping for recreation. Many of
them, in fact. I used to think they were laughable, yard saling items that were
bought and never used, but find that both pathetic and frightening now. These
are hard working people, fairly bright, both with good jobs, one kid out of the
house and the other ready to go, with both having decent, if not high, incomes.
Both are in jobs that will provide secure (as secure as anything is) retirement
at a good rate, their house is almost paid for, their vehicles are in good
shape, so they shop, or at least the wife does, and the junk builds up until
yard sale time.

Weird way to buy. I shop, too, of course. But I shop for what I need or think I
need. I do not shop for recreation. In fact, I'd rather drop large rocks on my
toes than shop, so that helps keep it in line.


If it's shopping on a Saturday, I say "Bring on the rocks!"

Other days, maybe only if they're less than 10 pound rocks.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:50:36 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.


No, the problem ain't easy, as some have suggested.

The problem doesn't even appear to be a problem to the vast majority
of people.

The problem is not solvable on the personal level, as some have
suggested.

The problem doesn't even appear to be a problem to the vast majority
of people.

The problem with the problem is that it doesn't even appear to be a
problem with the vast majority of people.

It's a problem.

I'm just wondering about how we are going to go about solving the
problem.

Y'all can get partisan- political about it if you want.

No need. Neither side will even admit that it is a problem. Forget doing
anything about it.


That means dick.

True.

We have an economic problem that will lead to a revolution in our
lifetime if the problem is not addressed.

What are we going to do about it?

Revolution or (more likely) war.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"CW" wrote in
:

The point being that it was not worth reading.

"gabriel" wrote in message
rvers.com...
CW wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,

The point being?

--
gabriel



But it is true.

gabriel wrote in
rvers.com:

5. We want our companies to give us free health, life, dental and
vision insurance, higher pensions, retirement health care, long term
disability…… It all goes into the bottom line so our products are
more expensive.

This is not a new concept... I would buy it if everyione had started
demanding health care in recent years. What is truly happening is
health care cost is going up, with benefits going down. How do you
explain that?


For an eye opening experience sit down with a doctor and ask them. You
What they say? My wife's doctor has quit. It seems that for every 15
minute apointement she had to fill out 2 hours worth of paperwork. So
she had to hire enough staff to handle it. Then congress created HIPA.
The overhead just doubled. So when the goverment requires by law that
you go out and double your staff what do you think happens? Your cost
goes up so your price has to too.

I have several friends that are doctors. One, an othopedic surgeon, has
had his after tax income go down continually for the past 10 years. He
showed me his tax forms. 10 years ago his AGI was about $350K. Last
year it was $250K. He works twice as many hours as he used to but has
less after taxes.

The money isn't going to the health care people. It is being swallowed
by overhead and taxes.

Lets not even talk about the $100K per year in malpractice insurance.

Oh, be sure and vote for Edwards. A trial lawer, he will fix it for us!

On 06 Feb 2004 10:40:11 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Tom Watson responds:

When I was a small bean going to Grammar School we studied
Citizenship, wherein we learned about the interdependence of the
electorate and the elected and studied things like the "Good of the
Commonweal".

They've dropped Citizenship in favor of the study of Consumer Issues.

Makes a man want to throw up.

Or "shop till he drops." What a social slogan that was.

My point was that our focus, as a culture and as "The Man Writ Large"
has shifted from the duties and responsibilities of Citizenship to the
irresponsible category of Consumer.

Consumers are not responsible for anything other than getting the best
deal; a Citizen, if I rightly understand the term, is responsible for
the health of the Polis, being a full and mindful partner in the
process that brings the Polis into being.

Democracy demands reciprocity between the governed and the governing.

Our current culture treats those who run our affairs as professionals,
who must be given great latitude as regards the affairs of state,
rather than treating them as fellow amateurs, who must be guided by
the fellows that put them in such high regard.

This would be a mistake.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Yes, I do. Two things that come to my mind immediately. (1) I will not live
long enough to see China in Japans place. (3) By that time, they will figure
out how to industrialize Africa. A lot of that country would love to make a
dollar a day.


I've asked this before and I'll ask it again:

CW, do you have any teeth?




Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

lighting we want installed by a local company. It will put more money
into the hands of our employees so they can live better and buy more US
made goods.

Except there *aren't* any US made goods to buy.

It's an ugly problem. I guess it doesn't really affect my business one way
or the other though. Seven years ago, I was slinging a lot of American
made stuff out the back of my truck. Waterbeds and case goods from out
west. Futons from Virginia and North Carolina. Nowadays I'm slinging a
lot of Chinese and Indoesian made stuff out the back of my truck. Futons
and case goods from China. Futons and case goods from Indoesia. Not much
waterbed stuff anymore.

My job has remained more or less unchanged, but it has sucked picking up so
many last loads from so many American companies that went under, watching
people I knew staring unemployment in the face. My company had to compete,
and it had to sell what would sell. If we hadn't picked up all this far
eastern stuff, then ten drivers and 40 warehouse/office people would all be
unemployed.

The hell of it is the imported stuff is *way* better than most of the
American stuff was. Good wood, good finish, good joinery, instead of stuff
that's stapled and screwed together to save time and money. I used to pick
up tons of returns every week. Broken slats, missing parts, staples that
missed the mark.

Now the other side of this is that the American stuff was made that way
because the wood was obscenely expensive, because we have strict controls
on logging and such, and because the employees were all earning a decent
living wage by American standards. To make something priced low enough to
have any hope of selling, they pretty much *had* to turn out a shoddy
product. The Asians have no such problems. Pay people 50 cents a day,
raze the forests like there's no tomorrow, pollute like crazy.

At the end of the day, what they're doing out there is just wrong. Nuke the
hell out of the environment, sell cheap, put everyone in the West out of
business. As long as there's a choice, people will always buy that $400
dresser though, and we don't care how many babies in Xinxao are born with
no brains because of all the toxic chemicals in the ground. (I made that
up. I was actually thinking of that place on the other side of the Rio
Grande, and I used some poetic license here. So sue me.)

The only way I see to stem the tide of imported goods is to resort to
protectionism. Everyone tells me protectionism is doomed to failure.

So **** on it. I guess it doesn't matter. No matter what people are
buying, as long as people are buying something, I'll have something to
sling out the back of my truck.

My wife will have something to sell at Wal-Mart too.

I guess we're OK. Too bad we have $40,000 of education between us though,
and nothing to do with it. There was nothing to do with it a decade ago,
and now it's completely pointless to even think about it.

I'm not going to send my kids to college.

I guess maybe I'll send them to India or China, so they can get jobs.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:24:52 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Revolution or (more likely) war.

If that is your best answer, you're not worth much.



Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Doug Winterburn

Quoted:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:20:23 +0000, gabriel wrote:


This is not a new concept... I would buy it if everyione had started
demanding health care in recent years. What is truly happening is health
care cost is going up, with benefits going down. How do you explain
that?

And wrote::

"Lawyers."

Brilliant, Dougie; what did you want to be when you grew up?

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 02:47:54 +0000, S S Law NH wrote:

Doug Winterburn

Quoted:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:20:23 +0000, gabriel wrote:


This is not a new concept... I would buy it if everyione had started
demanding health care in recent years. What is truly happening is health
care cost is going up, with benefits going down. How do you explain
that?

And wrote::

"Lawyers."

Brilliant, Dougie; what did you want to be when you grew up?

Looking at you email id, would you deny that huge medical malpractice
settlements have not only driven up the cost of healthcare because of
increasaed insurance costs for doctors, and have led many doctors to
abandon their practices?

I'm already grown up and retired and have just had my health insurance
cost increase 50% in one year - and it ain't all because of the pill
manufacturers by any stretch. Tort reform is way overdue.

-Doug

In article laWUb.4832$Qa3.3887@edtnps89, says...
What H-1B problem Mark?

Rob



H1-B's are the visas used to import foreign professional jobs. There
has been a quota on the number of those visas that are permitted to be
issued per year. Cries of "engineer shortage" from various industries
led to raising the quota on H1-Bs. The original idea was to allow
hiring foreign workers when no domestic professionals are available to
fill job openings. The employer must advertise and be able to prove
that there are no qualified domestic professionals to be had in order to
get an H1-B worker. What has happened is some employers will advertise
for a ridiculous position, such as a mechanical engineer with 10 years
of experience, finite element modeling experience, and a PhD, salary:
$42k per year. Of course no qualified domestic employee would take that
salary,but there are foreigners who will. Since the quota was raised (I
believe it occurred during about the mid-90's during the ".com boom")

Those countries. Big deal, never made a mistake. BTW, your question makes no
more sense now that it ever did.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Yes, I do. Two things that come to my mind immediately. (1) I will not
live
long enough to see China in Japans place. (3) By that time, they will
figure
out how to industrialize Africa. A lot of that country would love to make
a
dollar a day.


I've asked this before and I'll ask it again:

CW, do you have any teeth?




Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/