In article , Larry Jaques
says...
On 08 Feb 2004 08:57:49 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

SS is laoded with debt because the money was used in the general fund to pay
for various governmental and public excesses.

How could we ever allow them to do things like this?
(After we, the people, had been told they were doing so.)


It's how ol' FDR set the plan up in the first place. There was no
mechanism to accumulate actual value to be paid for later, after all,
that would get the fed into the private sector by investing.

If a private company or publicly held corporation did with their
pension funds what the federal government has, by design, done with
Social Security, the corporate officers would be put so far away, you'd
have to pump air to them. When our federal elected officials do it,
they get re-elected.

Charlie Self wrote:

Doug Winterburn writes:

And the king of pork I believe is a senator from your state that keeps
getting re-elected and re-elected.

This ain't my state, I never voted for him, never will, and I'll be out of
here as soon as someone buys this house.

Missed that original post in all the bustle of this thread. No, the King of
Pork is a represnative in my beloved own district. Rick Boucher. One of
these days people will stop re-electing him, but I suspect not until a few
decades after he's dead.

Only in Virginia's 9th would we spend hundreds of millions of federal tax
dollars on a road that's a dead end at both ends, which nobody can drive
on. You go, Rick!

He's the guy who speaks on behalf of the State Department too. Whee.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

It is the point. Last time I checked each person has the right to buy and
drive anything they like.
There is a big difference between buying smart, being cheap and being
wasteful. Smart buyers buy the things they need or want without sacrificing
quality at the best price available. Cheap and wasteful buyers shop at
Harbor Freight and the like. Then discover they now own a piece or junk,
toss it (this is the waste part), then finally decide they need a decent one
and decide to save the money to buy a quality woodworking tool. (The use of
woodworking tool is to maintain the woodworking part of the this thread.)

If you want to buy my old car or truck, God bless you. The automotive world
needs people like you.
Dave



"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
TeamCasa writes:

We all want profit in one fashion or another. People leave the house to
work at a job for the money. To think otherwise is the height of
naiveté.
Sure some people love what they do, some are wealthy enough not to be
forced, however, most decide to work to support themselves and their
families.


Uh, yeah. WTF does that have to do with SUVs and waste?

As far as profit goes, I've mentioned this befo except for one abortive
and
short period, I've owned my own business for way over 30 years.


Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark
Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:00:52 GMT, Mark & Juanita
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article , Larry Jaques
says...
On 08 Feb 2004 08:57:49 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

SS is laoded with debt because the money was used in the general fund to pay
for various governmental and public excesses.

How could we ever allow them to do things like this?
(After we, the people, had been told they were doing so.)


It's how ol' FDR set the plan up in the first place. There was no
mechanism to accumulate actual value to be paid for later, after all,
that would get the fed into the private sector by investing.

sigh


If a private company or publicly held corporation did with their
pension funds what the federal government has, by design, done with
Social Security, the corporate officers would be put so far away, you'd
have to pump air to them. When our federal elected officials do it,
they get re-elected.

grumble grumble is all I can say.


--
REMEMBER: First you pillage, then you burn.
---
http://diversify.com Full Service Website Development

Mark & Juanita writes:


If a private company or publicly held corporation did with their
pension funds what the federal government has, by design, done with
Social Security, the corporate officers would be put so far away, you'd
have to pump air to them. When our federal elected officials do it,
they get re-elected.

But you can say that about almost everything the Feds do. Start with bidding
processes that have so many requirements that prices are inflated ($500
hammers, $600 toilet seats, $3000 coffee makers).

Someone once posted the list of requirements for a chocolate chip cookie. I
didn't show it to my in-house master cookie baker because she'd have hurt
herself laughing. God aloneknows what they'd think of the pineapple upside down
cake she made the other day (but the other women at her part-time job were
stunnded that she'd actually baked a cake...Jesus, I gotta get out of the
city).


Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Silvan responds:

Missed that original post in all the bustle of this thread. No, the King of
Pork is a represnative in my beloved own district. Rick Boucher. One of
these days people will stop re-electing him, but I suspect not until a few
decades after he's dead.

Only in Virginia's 9th would we spend hundreds of millions of federal tax
dollars on a road that's a dead end at both ends, which nobody can drive
on. You go, Rick!

Now, c'mon Michael. Are you saying the Smart Road is stupid?

Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

I thought of your statement and a strange thought come to me. I guess a
feeling of irony. This thought comes from reading about the home automation
industry where you could pay $10,000 for a single speaker and you need 7 of
them.
Background: We all want Cheap, but we all want to be paid the big bucks
(like a union that wants an increase to $30/hr. but won't settle to stay at
$27.50 for a year and save 300 local jobs), so businesses outsource to other
country's for cheap (we want our cake and eat it too). The irony: Then we
get the BIG BUCKs [somehow] and then buy expensive from overseas (such as
the Swiss and Germans) who by past reputation are good so we buy from them
for unfounded quality issues (such as clock movements and electronics), even
though our country has pioneered most technologies (like audio enhancement)
and we could probably pay the same price here as there.
Ok that still doesn't come out right but does anyone catch the gist?

--


"mttt" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...



The manager types who want a global economy, and who may have been put
through bidness school by fathers who worked with their hands, want
access to cheap labor and goods.

No! You do! You want cheap cars, cheap lettuce and cheap TV's. Hell, I
want cheap cars and TV's (I don't like lettuce.)

Why is IT any different?
It's a burdensome cost on a business - like any milling machine in a
plant.

You want cheap long distance?
You're forcing me to look for folks who can write software for $10 hour.

The problem is *us*.

you get a C+

--


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Mark Jerde asks:


As far as profit goes, I've mentioned this befo except for one
abortive and short period, I've owned my own business for way over 30
years.

100 words or fewer: what's the essence, the secret?


80 hours a week.

Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark
Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

In article ,
says...
Only in Virginia's 9th would we spend hundreds of millions of federal tax
dollars on a road that's a dead end at both ends, which nobody can drive
on. You go, Rick!

Anyone here remember Happy Chandler as govenor of Kentucky? He built a
four lane highway that went to, you guessed it, his house!

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

my thoughts exactly.
as a single living with my parents at the moment I can get by on $15,000 per
year (that includes two student loans, car, insurance) but I tell you more
than that seems great. I mean hey better car, my own house, Loans get paid
off in large amounts (5 years instead of 20). you get the picture. It is
all about what we need vs. what we want. And yeah I can't even get that
anymore and my credit rating is going down the tubes, while the other guy is
spending like crazy.



--


"tmbg" wrote in message
news
I'd be willing to work for the wage that employers want to pay... if they
were willing to pay something that I could actually live on. And I'm not
even talking "oh, I can't live without $80k/yr to cover my house, three
cars, and boat", I mean, my last job I made $30k/yr, and while I would
have liked more, I could get by on $20k. I can't even get that anymore.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.

RB

Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:


All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of
work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?


My wife is the HR person for a company that rents out computer
consultants. These are mostly long term contracts that involve
programmers and project managers.

A large part of her job has come to be helping folks from India deal
with getting into the country so that they can take computer jobs away
from folks like you.

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.

But the special exemptions stand.

Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

I was wondering where that story was going.

--


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:54:02 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


It came to light here recently in sWisconsin that the
gub'ment agency in charge of getting people off of the
welfare rolls and back to taxable paying jobs had contracted
their phone center work to a non-gub'ment private sector
firm who then re-contracted it to a call center in India.

Ironic, ain't it?

UA100


I've got these magnetic salt and pepper shakers that stick together
real good so the don't lose each other (I'm not sure why that would be
important but they were a gift).

I can't read the newspaper at the kitchen table no more because the
salt and pepper shakers jump off the table onto the broadsheet.

Attracted by all the irony contained therein, I'm guessing.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

--


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:04:05 -0500, "George"
wrote:

They speak better English than those welfare mothers?

I have more language problems (and repeats) from government affirmative
hires than the TAs at school, who are non-native speakers of American.


Aside from the fact that the above is an incredibly tortured piece of
language; I haven't the slightest idea of what you are trying to say.

You do speak English as a first language?

You mean there are those who do?

Sounds like the NY governor elections...............

--


"RB" wrote in message
...


Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:


Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure
it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get
the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?



My first question to my boss, when we were sending drawings over to
the Chinese guy, with the name of our customer printed all over them,
was - "What's to keep the Chinese guy from doing an end run around us
and going direct to our customer?"

Ya see, the Chinese guy is a store fixture manufacturer, not just a
metal fabricator.

My bosses answer was, "He doesn't sell in our market."

I'm a FNG, having only been in this job for about a month - so I
didn't complete the thought with, "Yeah, not yet."

I like my new job. I don't like the fact that my company buys from
China but the Chinese guy was the low bidder. I'm fifty-three years
old with knees that are too bad to work in the shop full time anymore.

My protest will be filed next November.

How? There doesn't appear to be a choice worth voting for. I used to
be able to pick the "least worst." Can't even figure out how to do that
this time.

RB

"On election day, I will be essentially doing the same thing you folks
are doing, except that when I'm finished masturbating I'm gonna have a
little more to show for it."

- George Carlin


I'm just not sure how, yet.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On 09 Feb 2004 10:16:19 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Mark & Juanita writes:


If a private company or publicly held corporation did with their
pension funds what the federal government has, by design, done with
Social Security, the corporate officers would be put so far away, you'd
have to pump air to them. When our federal elected officials do it,
they get re-elected.

But you can say that about almost everything the Feds do. Start with bidding
processes that have so many requirements that prices are inflated ($500
hammers, $600 toilet seats, $3000 coffee makers).

Funny thing about the $500 hammers etc. I used to work with an
accountant who was in the National Guard in supply services. (he got
fired during Desert Storm (Gulf War I) because he was gone for 3
months on active duty, could have cleaned out the company (and should
have) but was too nice a guy) We got talking once about the huge
prices on some things and he pulled out some papers he had on
different purchases. It was pretty revealing to say the least. The
*average* military price for things is about 1/3 of what you will pay
on any normal purchase contract. I was amazed by things like gasoline
at about ten cents a gallon, Pepsi around 2 cents a can, all sorts of
things at incredibly low prices. The military has a pretty intense
bidding process and they get about the lowest prices anyone can get.
Where the money starts to add up is in things that have to be
precisely spec-ed, like a toilet seat for a stealth bomber or a coffee
pot for a B-52. The military doesn't like to take chances with
"mission critical" stuff, and like it or not, a cheap coffee maker
shorting out could cause a lot more problems than just running out of
Java.

There is a lot of waste in the military (and other government
programs) but it is unfair to characterize the entire system by a few
anomalous cases. By and large the bidding process and specialized
requirements work pretty well. If you want to look at wasted military
money look at bases that are kept open for political reasons and
weapons systems that are developed and implemented after the generals
have determined they don't want or need them.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...


http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/7900006.htm


'The answer, boiled down by panel moderator Bill Siegle, chief information
officer of ACE INA Holdings, was essentially "yes, but."'

Coming to that very same conclusion as I explore it.
Good to know I can always go back and be a consultant, when I offshore
myself...

Ah see that is where the problem lies. You assume that Voting, Not voting,
and not seeing a difference are all intertwined. But its not. Its the
sense of duty "I am a Citizen I have a Right and responsibility to vote" By
voting I make my opinion stated. Just because my opinion isn't acknowledged
doesn't mean that I shouldn't say it (case in point war protestors don't let
that stop them).
The fact is it is never one man that changes a vote for the bad but a bunch
of voters thinking they are only one man.
Then again Texas became a State because of a series of one votes. In this
case one old man thought his vote counted.
Also, I was told once by someone who knows the ins and outs of a politicians
office. That if you call your state representative and file a complaint,
because he has access to voter registration lists, he will acknowledge the
complaint by weather it was filed by a voter or a non-voter. Take a guess
which complaint gets trashed. If you don't think that such actions really
matter then you are unfamiliar with dead laws like HR-71 etc.
--


"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...
On 07 Feb 2004 12:13:24 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

We must again engage the burdens and blessings of Citizenship and
perform our natural function in the Polis

But how, when probably 60% of the public isn't interested, and half or
more of
the rest is rabidly for or against some party platform that is of slight
importance on any long term scheme of things?

HTF do we get them interested?

The problem has become that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you
get the same result. You don't have walnut, oak and maple, it's just
poplar stained differently. People stop voting when they feel that
their vote makes no difference. I've voted in every election I could
since I reach legal age, but there is precious little to recommend
doing so. No matter who wins the economic foolishness will continue
and there is basically nothing that can be done about it at the polls.

If we want people to be interested in voting there need to be real
choices and real impact on what happens in government. Trying to
select between 2 moderate Democans running for president just doesn't
seem to matter. We won't see any better choices as long as the
campaign process is focused on finding fault with opponents. No
decent, intelligent person wants to run for office and face all the
garbage. I'd run for office because of my convictions, but absolutely
never will because of some stupid things I did when I was young. Only
those whose egos are big enough to allow them to ignore their own
faults are willing to run, so you get Bush, Clinton, Gore, Dean, Clark
et. al. and as far as I can tell there isn't a nickel's worth of
difference between them. So I'll keep my nickel and use it to tune my
table saw.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

you don't need a law degree to be a politician.

--


"CW" wrote in message
...
I'm glad I'm not the only one that has thought of that. It would seem that
what everyone is pushing these days is buying low and selling high. Just
be
a middleman, don't actually make anything. What happens when your customer
finds out that he doesn't need a middleman to take a cut. Buy direct. How
about when the Chinese company that is selling you this stuff finds out
what
kind of markup you are putting on it and starts selling retail. He can
underprice you and cut you right out. I'm starting to think that all those
years that I spent in school (machining, drafting, electronics, computers)
were a waste. I should have gone for a law degree so I could be a
politician
too. Problem is, my moral standards are just to high to be a professional
sleezeball.

"Mike" wrote in message
news:e7CUb.234130$na.377281@attbi_s04...
Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure
it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get
the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?

Actually in some sense the Problems in Africa will probably accelerate its
industrialization. The current adult generation is considered a write off.
But many of them were uneducated. The survivor orphans are getting a boost
in their education and will probably be the next leaders.

--


"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:54:17 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Apparently, it wasn't to hard to figure out. You did it.

Yeah, but I've got doubts about Africa becoming another China.
They've got a serious problem with an illness killing many of the
people that would do the work along with a lot of individual nations,
not one large one that sets policy.


"Lazarus Long" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:09:18 -0800, "CW"
wrote:

Yes, I do. Two things that come to my mind immediately. (1) I will not
live
long enough to see China in Japans place. (3) By that time, they will
figure
out how to industrialize Africa. A lot of that country would love to
make
a
dollar a day.


You mean "continent", not country.

preach it.

--


"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Few things in history give such clear cut cause and effect as the fact
that
change is inevitable. Those who rail against it fail, those who adapt to
it,
succeed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/05/04


"Cape Cod Bob" wrote in message

If you insist on making sense, you will not be welcome in this thread.

Actually there is really nothing special about most manufactured items. The
difference is the worker. X# of bricks will still cost $5.65/hr + Materials
(or whatever minimum wage is now) to make in the united states. The
materials will cost at minimum $5.65/hr to produce/excavate (+ overhead like
machinery that only costs $30+ for the overhaul).
In Africa the same # of bricks will cost maybe 50c per hour (if the worker
is lucky)+ Materials that only cost 50c per hr to excavate (plus overhead
like machinery which may cost 2 or 3 $ per hour to overhaul).
Basically it is the cost of the worker that decides the price.

--


"Greg O" wrote in message
...

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.



On This Old House some time ago, they were doing some masonary with just
your old typical brick. They did mention that these bricks came from some
place in Africa. The kicker was when it was explained that the bricks were
nothing special, and they could have just as well have used bricks made
any
place, 'cept these were cheaper!

Fer crying out load! Bricks! How simple can it be! Mix up some water and
mud, maybe bake 'em, far from high tech! The African bricks were likely
made
by hand with wooded forms, a hand full at a time, where a supplier state
side would haxe some mechanical monster that spits 'em out hundreds at a
time. Then can you imagine shipping containers of bricks from overseas,
and
getting them here cheaper than they can be made down the road a piece! You
would think that freight would kill the price differance.
Greg

Tim Douglass writes:


There is a lot of waste in the military (and other government
programs) but it is unfair to characterize the entire system by a few
anomalous cases. By and large the bidding process and specialized
requirements work pretty well. If you want to look at wasted military
money look at bases that are kept open for political reasons and
weapons systems that are developed and implemented after the generals
have determined they don't want or need them.

The trouble is, the anomalies seem to be taking over the store. I'm curious
about some things that may have changed, but probably haven't: as an aviation
electronics tech (back in the days when it wasn't very tech), we badly needed
electrician's knives. Basic two blade pocket knife, of reasonable high quality.
IIRC, we had something like 8 men in our shop. We were allowed a gross of the
things annually or some such outrageous number (primarily because if you were
tieing things off and set the knife down to use both hands, the knife was gone
when you reached for it). The gross used to last maybe four weeks, maybe six.

Had another guy caught hauling white paint home. Claimed it was
surplus...surveyed, the marines used to call it.

This petty theft was common to all services, though I tend to think Marines
after years of getting the short end of the equipment stick had developed a
particular talent, and just kept it rolling a bit much between wars.

I wonder, I really do wonder, if the current situation offers more chances for
honesty.

Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 13:10:43 -0600, Phil brought
forth from the murky depths:

Operate on people's fears, expand one's power base, throw money by the ton at a
problem that is ill-defined, and there are still immense holes in our security
"blanket."

You don't think our fears are warrented? Terrorism by definition is illdefined.
So do you advocate we don't try to avoid further 9-11's?

Hell no. First, we cannot be fully protected from terrorism
because it is MUCH more often the result of someone who
lives here. Any single person could cause a horrible disaster
and no matter how many police and feds we throw at a problem
like that, you cannot protect against it and we should stop
trying.

Don't disagree with you can't 100% protect against it, but you can have some impact.
If you stop one act that would kill 100000 people it's worth it.

Yes, tracking down potential terrorists is a worthy
goal, but nothing they have done has made one bit of difference.
I carried a 9" sharpened pencil (in plain view in my shirt
pocket) right through 4 airport checkpoints and wasn't ever
questioned about it. A college kid planted fake bombs, a Sudanese
man carried on bullets, and I'm sure lots of other things have
made it onto planes since we wasted all that money on nothing.


Some peolpe steal and get away with it, should you have no laws against stealing
because we can't catch 100%?


Sure, the sniffers are probably not a bad idea, but physically
checking every 50th passenger means 49 could smuggle something
non-detectable onboard. Patrolling only 80% of the country's
borders leaves gaping holes. How else do illegal aliens get in?
Plenty of ways.


My point is that all of this Patriot Act/Homeland is done for
show and for control. It has absolutely no effect on potential
terrorism. None whatsoever.The bad guys just changed plans.

So your admitting it had some effect, they had to change plans.

Many thousands of potential terrorists of middle-eastern descent were

already in the country (due to lax personnel similar to the new
fully-trained lax personnel) before 9/11. Many thousands of
potentially postal people are getting laid off by corporations.
Many others will go crazy for other reasons. How many will turn
into terrorists? Will anything in the Acts help? No.
Christ, buy a clue, sheeple.

Terrorism by definition is illdefined.

By the Acts? Yes.

So do you advocate we don't try to avoid further 9-11's?

Correct. I feel that our open way of life is undefendable
from terrorism. We already had advisors/people in place to
help protect against it when 9/11 happened and since advice
was not heeded, it happened. Adding further layers to the
mess is just wasted money. We need to stop training the
terrorists and propping up bad governments. That will avoid
further escalation of terror.

True, but we also need to stop creating safe havens for terrorists, financial havens
and make governments that turn a deaf ear to them, wake up.


The War on Terrorism is a freakin' reelection campaign show.

The Iraquis are in worse shape now than before.


According to the mass media you must listen to, polls in Iraq show the vast majority
think they will be better off.


And the USA is in more danger now than before Afghanistan and
Iraq. If we don't curb our imperialism soon, the world is going
to show us just how much they don't like it.



Disagree, but your entitlted to your opinion. If we could leave Afganistan and Iraq
and they survive and thrive on their own, I at least believe we wouldn't be there.
Afganistan has nothing to be imperialistic about. If we wanted the oil in Iraq we
could have just lifted the sanctions.

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:38:19 -0600, Phil brought
forth from the murky depths:

Don't disagree with you can't 100% protect against it, but you can have some impact.
If you stop one act that would kill 100000 people it's worth it.

Good point. Let's see, how many times in history have
single acts or events caused 100k deaths? Look it up,
Phil, and I guarantee you won't like what you find.


My point was that we were -already- having "some impact".


Some peolpe steal and get away with it, should you have no laws against stealing
because we can't catch 100%?

Oh, now you want to have strip searches into and out of each
and every boutique, store, coffee shop, and gas station?


So your admitting it had some effect, they had to change plans.

It has as much effect as a detour has on our getting to our
destination. Are all your arguments this full of holes?



So do you advocate we don't try to avoid further 9-11's?

Correct. I feel that our open way of life is undefendable
from terrorism. We already had advisors/people in place to
help protect against it when 9/11 happened and since advice
was not heeded, it happened. Adding further layers to the
mess is just wasted money. We need to stop training the
terrorists and propping up bad governments. That will avoid
further escalation of terror.

True, but we also need to stop creating safe havens for terrorists, financial havens
and make governments that turn a deaf ear to them, wake up.


The War on Terrorism is a freakin' reelection campaign show.

The Iraquis are in worse shape now than before.


According to the mass media you must listen to, polls in Iraq show the vast majority
think they will be better off.

(Hmm, "the mass media you must listen to"? I don't even GET
the broadcast network channels.)

Consider for the last year, fresh running water has been
cut off to more people than it had been before we got there.
(that one's documented) How would you like to live there
under those conditions? Polls show that the vast majority
of people cheering in the streets think they will be better
off. But they're only perhaps 3% (swag) of the population
and perhaps the only part of the population willing to talk
about it. Show me the polling techniques, personnel, and raw
data and I'll get back to ya.


And the USA is in more danger now than before Afghanistan and
Iraq. If we don't curb our imperialism soon, the world is going
to show us just how much they don't like it.

Disagree, but your entitlted to your opinion. If we could leave Afganistan and Iraq
and they survive and thrive on their own, I at least believe we wouldn't be there.

And I disagree and feel that yours is a naive opinion. We
are there to prop up yet another bad government who just
happens to be willing to work with us. You do realize that
(I'm ashamed to say) our USA hoisted Hussein to the top,
trained his men, and -created- this little Hellish scenario,
don't you?


Afganistan has nothing to be imperialistic about. If we wanted the oil in Iraq we
could have just lifted the sanctions.

Perhaps an encyclopedia would help, Phil. Look up the terms
"imperialism" and "territory". And can you say "pipeline to
Pakistan"? I knew you could.


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:17:09 -0500, "Young_carpenter"
wrote:

Ah see that is where the problem lies. You assume that Voting, Not voting,
and not seeing a difference are all intertwined. But its not. Its the
sense of duty "I am a Citizen I have a Right and responsibility to vote" By
voting I make my opinion stated. Just because my opinion isn't acknowledged
doesn't mean that I shouldn't say it (case in point war protestors don't let
that stop them).

I was explaining *why* people don't vote. Whether or not they are
right in their assumption is immaterial, their actions are based on
their perceptions. When the vote is perceived as nothing more than a
sop to the masses to give them an illusion of involvement then they
stop voting.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Larry Jaques responds:
Don't disagree with you can't 100% protect against it, but you can have some
impact.
If you stop one act that would kill 100000 people it's worth it.

Good point. Let's see, how many times in history have
single acts or events caused 100k deaths? Look it up,
Phil, and I guarantee you won't like what you find.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki and I'm not sure about Dresden's fatalities.

Why should that make him uneasy or upset. If the atomic bomb hadn't been used,
the estimate of allied deaths in a fight towards, and invasion of, Japan itself
started at 1 million, with many, many more Japanese deaths.

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Coming along 55 or 60 years after such events with 20-20 hindsight is just a
bit silly.

Some peolpe steal and get away with it, should you have no laws against
stealing
because we can't catch 100%?

Oh, now you want to have strip searches into and out of each
and every boutique, store, coffee shop, and gas station?


So your admitting it had some effect, they had to change plans.

It has as much effect as a detour has on our getting to our
destination. Are all your arguments this full of holes?

Agree. If that much. I've seen too many little old ladies pulled out of line
for wand and personal searches, and had to take my shoes off too many times to
believe any of that BS is effective. Hell, I always wear sneakers on aircraft.
Please tell me what I could hide in those that I don't already have in my shirt
pocket.

Charlie Self
"Why isn't there a special name for the tops of your feet?" Lily Tomlin

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

actually 9.98 a box when it came out around here and that is for a 10 day
supply most Prescriptions come in 30 day supply or more

--


"gabriel" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Joe Willmann wrote:

For an eye opening experience sit down with a doctor and ask them. You
What they say? My wife's doctor has quit.

I will not deny that paperwork does add a lot to the cost. But this is
not why the doctor quit. The doctor quit because he/she did not want to
take the only other option out the Work for an HMO.

I was a determined pre-med a decade ago until I realized this.

you go out and double your staff what do you think happens? Your cost
goes up so your price has to too.

Fine, now picture this: You run an HMO, and your doctors prescribe meds.
You pay the (vast?) majority of the cost of the meds (for example, I pay
$15 per prescription fill at Kaiser, no matter what the medicine is).
Now you have a patient that just got diagnosed with AIDS. The drug
cocktail costs you $2000 a month. There are no generics because the
drugs are under patent. You can only charge the patient $100 a month.
Can you say "OUCH!"?

Now another scenario: The allergy medicine Allegra costs $50 per box. A
week later the patent runs out and immediately generics are sold for it.
Result: Allegra and the generics drop in cost to $7 per box. Also
immediately, the request is approved to dispense Allegra over the
counter, reducing your costs even more. All of this because the patent
monopoly ended.

The money isn't going to the health care people. It is being swallowed
by overhead and taxes.

Oh puhleeze! It's not going to the doctors, and to a large extent, it's
not going to the HMO operators either. I already mentioned who it's
going to.

But you're right, hospitals are folding left and right due to several
reasons.

--
gabriel

I think we should start a new party. Woodworkers for a Better President
Party. How many of you want to run. You have to be about 40 years of age.

--


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 07 Feb 2004 12:06:37 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Joe WIllman writes:

I have several friends that are doctors. One, an othopedic surgeon, has
had his after tax income go down continually for the past 10 years. He
showed me his tax forms. 10 years ago his AGI was about $350K. Last
year it was $250K. He works twice as many hours as he used to but has
less after taxes.

He's got less BEFORE taxes, too, which seems to be the primary reason he
has
less AFTER taxes.

If he's working twice as many hours for half the pay, the
new job at a different hospital must be lower paying, y'think?
I'll bet he didn't tell Joe that he's paying less in tax
these years.


Oh, be sure and vote for Edwards. A trial lawer, he will fix it for us!

Probably not. Do you think Shrub will?

I don't think anyone in the Rep/Dem lineup so far can/will.
I hope someone comes along who looks like he can at least
START fixing things, beginning with a smaller gov't who does
more with less. Pork and hand-outs have to stop and the
deficit has to be paid off. The IRS has to collect owed taxes
and stop harassing the little guys who can't afford to fight
back. Loopholes and graft have to disappear, too.

Newp, I'm not holding my breath for any or all of this.

-
The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com
so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

My point goes back farther in time. Say 30-40 years ago, we didn't
have as many drugs to cure what ails us. Now days we have many many
more drugs for all the ailments. Maybe we even have new ailments.

Renata


On 07 Feb 2004 18:02:08 GMT, (David Hall) wrote:
--snip--:

1) Higher drug costs,

2) Longer drug patent terms, which keep high drug costs for a longer time.
As soon as generics come out, drug prices plummet.

And a lot more use of the much larger variety of expensive drugs.

Renata

Most insurance programs have two entirely seperable components - 1. health
insurance and 2. prescription drug plan. While the prescription drugs plans
have certainly been increasing at a faster rate than the medical insurance
portion, both have been increasing far too rapidly. Our company's plans
increased the last two years as follows:

Health care (HMO)- 2003 up 24% 2002 up 27%

Prescription drug plan - 2003 up 32% 2002 up 34%

So clearly it ain't all the drugs, but they certainly are part of the problem.

BTW the combined total for a family plan is now in excess of $10,500 per year.
Premium co-pays are limited to a max of $900 per year - yeah a good employer -
and the union took a strike over that $900, they wanted to continue with no
co-pay.

Dave Hall

How does $75000 sound for a ~30 day stay at a rehab place where
they're supposed to be rehabbing one's broken back, but lost the brace
and so the patient sits in the bed day in, day out. Period. Nuttin
else.

Renata

On 08 Feb 2004 19:04:55 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Doug Winterburn writes:
Know of a recent case of a non CV
fit elderly person going to emergency cause of a sensation in the chest.
The local guys not wanting or being able to handle it call in the medivac
copter and haul this individual to the big city - a 20 minute ride, rather
than use an ambulance - a 45 minute ride. Yeah, 25 minutes mighta made a
difference, but since the symptoms had been going on for 6 months, I doubt
it. The response of the individual involved - "sure glad medicare covers
this". The rehab after the baloon job is CV, but in the meantime, I'd
like to know the difference in tax bux for the ride.

Ah well. A few years ago, I had to call the rescue squad for chest pains. They
get there, all set to take me into the tiny hospital in town. I insisted on
going to VA. One guy got so ****ed he left. I got to VA, it turned out to be
pancreatitis from the Atkins diet (too much fat) or from drinking. I hadn't had
a drink in 15 years.

Basic rationale: I'd just got finished paying almost $9000 to a GD surgeon and
opeprating room bill (anyone who thinks $4500 for 1-1/2 hours of outpatient
surgical room is reasonable, raise your hand--then go have your head examined)
from the parent hospital for a botched knee surgery. I wanted no more, nuttin,
and the VA was as close as anywhere else. Guy was ****ed cause he was afraid
I'd die on the way. I told him I'd rather die than pay those *******s another
dime. I was not kidding. Then or now.


Charlie Self
"Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:05:17 -0500, "George"
wrote:

Hmm, we got a big grant for our FD tanker, more for training on mass
disasters, and ambulance money for next year.

Methinks Renata is using the unreliable sources.


Twas on ABC News last week. Guess I better start watching Fox...

Renata


--snip--

On 10 Feb 2004 19:31:46 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Larry Jaques responds:
Don't disagree with you can't 100% protect against it, but you can have some
impact.
If you stop one act that would kill 100000 people it's worth it.

Good point. Let's see, how many times in history have
single acts or events caused 100k deaths? Look it up,
Phil, and I guarantee you won't like what you find.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki and I'm not sure about Dresden's fatalities.

Why should that make him uneasy or upset. If the atomic bomb hadn't been used,
the estimate of allied deaths in a fight towards, and invasion of, Japan itself
started at 1 million, with many, many more Japanese deaths.

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Coming along 55 or 60 years after such events with 20-20 hindsight is just a
bit silly.

I'm saying two things with that. First, nobody is killing
on that large a scale...yet. The only people who have is
us, but that was during a World War. Let's hope it doesn't
happen again.


It has as much effect as a detour has on our getting to our
destination. Are all your arguments this full of holes?

Agree. If that much. I've seen too many little old ladies pulled out of line
for wand and personal searches, and had to take my shoes off too many times to
believe any of that BS is effective. Hell, I always wear sneakers on aircraft.
Please tell me what I could hide in those that I don't already have in my shirt
pocket.

We had to put our shoes through the scanners in Seattle
when I went to Anchorage last August while some laptop
could have been made of epoxy-coated C-4. I felt safer!


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

Shoot. I'm too old by about 25 yrs.
grumble,
j4

Young_carpenter wrote:
I think we should start a new party. Woodworkers for a Better President
Party. How many of you want to run. You have to be about 40 years of age.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:37:52 -0500, Renata
brought forth from the murky depths:

How does $75000 sound for a ~30 day stay at a rehab place where
they're supposed to be rehabbing one's broken back, but lost the brace
and so the patient sits in the bed day in, day out. Period. Nuttin
else.

I'd scream bloody murder if it were lost for more than a day.

It sounds like someone is potentially going to have problems
for the rest of their life and an attorney is going to make
the rehab place a very, very unhappy place. Much like the
person who didn't get the rehab while their back fused solid.


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

ever run an oil company?
Might make you VP


--


"jo4hn" wrote in message
link.net...
Shoot. I'm too old by about 25 yrs.
grumble,
j4

Young_carpenter wrote:
I think we should start a new party. Woodworkers for a Better President
Party. How many of you want to run. You have to be about 40 years of
age.

Charlie Self wrote:

Only in Virginia's 9th would we spend hundreds of millions of federal tax
dollars on a road that's a dead end at both ends, which nobody can drive
on. You go, Rick!

Now, c'mon Michael. Are you saying the Smart Road is stupid?

You mean the Porkbarrel Parkway? Yes it is.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On 10 Feb 2004 19:31:46 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC. In retrospect
all the terror tactics of WWI and WWII backfired. Perhaps that is
something that today's crop of terrorists need to realize - that
terror tactics have historically done more damage to the perpetrators
than to the victims. The German air attacks on London, intended to
instill terror in the people and bring about capitulation, instead
hardened the resolve of a nation that was on the brink of seeking a
compromise. In many ways you can say that Germany's defeat in WWII was
a direct result of their terror attacks. Terrorism as a means of
breaking the will of a group of people has failed virtually every time
it has been used.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it
almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC. In retrospect
all the terror tactics of WWI and WWII backfired. Perhaps that is
something that today's crop of terrorists need to realize - that
terror tactics have historically done more damage to the perpetrators
than to the victims. The German air attacks on London, intended to
instill terror in the people and bring about capitulation, instead
hardened the resolve of a nation that was on the brink of seeking a
compromise. In many ways you can say that Germany's defeat in WWII was
a direct result of their terror attacks. Terrorism as a means of
breaking the will of a group of people has failed virtually every time
it has been used.

Tim Douglass

Seemed to work on Japan.

Dave Hall

Bridger wrote:
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 05:43:01 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


CW,

Do you know if there is a way to open .SKD files in AutoCAD? .SKD is the
format that AutoSketch saves or saved drawings. IIRC at one time I could
open these file in older versions of AutoCAD LT. Maybe that was a dream.





seems I remember something about autodesk changing vendors on
autosketch a few years back and dumping a file format. could be what
you're up against.

pretty fuzzy memory, though.
I have autosketch 1.0. It will export to a .DXF format. Autocad 2004
will open a .DXF file. Hope that helps

--
Mule-Tracks
One for the board and two for the nail

Dave Hall responds:

rrorism as a means of
breaking the will of a group of people has failed virtually every time
it has been used.

Tim Douglass

Seemed to work on Japan.

I think you're both right here. I think generally terrorism doesn't work--the
Israelis would have packed it in long ago if it did; but I think the atomic
boms in Japan worked because they were not intended as terrorism, but as a
warning of what would happen if the war continued. There was none of this,
"We'll bomb Baghdad today and Kirkuk, tomorrow and killl some hundreds," for it
was simply, "Keep the war going, and we'll obliterate you." That creates
terror, of course, but the intent is to NOT have to continue, coupled to the
will to continue and that worked. In essence, it was a demonstration of what
could happen to entire cities.

IMO.

Charlie Self
"Love is not the dying moan of a distant violin - it's the triumphant twang of
a bedspring." S. J. Perelman

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.