Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Ayup....sucks huh?

Makes you wonder why they don't put the term "complacent" at the beginning
of every dictionary.....

Rob

--



******PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW EMAIL ADDRESS******



Please visit our (recently updated) web site:
http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?

So, now I work with my uncle-in-law-to-be, doing cabinetry, also which is
being put out of business by overseas mass-producers. All our work these
days comes from malls and such, for custom vendor stands.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:50:36 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:

Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:

All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?

My wife is the HR person for a company that rents out computer
consultants. These are mostly long term contracts that involve
programmers and project managers.

A large part of her job has come to be helping folks from India deal
with getting into the country so that they can take computer jobs away
from folks like you.

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.

But the special exemptions stand.

Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.

RB

Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:


All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?


My wife is the HR person for a company that rents out computer
consultants. These are mostly long term contracts that involve
programmers and project managers.

A large part of her job has come to be helping folks from India deal
with getting into the country so that they can take computer jobs away
from folks like you.

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.

But the special exemptions stand.

Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.


Well, that sorta goes to my buried point.

In sectors of the economy that are coming to be ruled by global pay
scales, and where we cannot compete on price and quality, we are
getting hosed.

The manager types who want a global economy, and who may have been put
through bidness school by fathers who worked with their hands, want
access to cheap labor and goods.

There is little thought for the ole neighborhood and what might be
best for it.

We are the largest consumers but we do not protect our market.

I've read enough economics and history enough to be sensitive to the
arguments against protected markets but I've lived in areas that have
been gutted both economically and spiritually by the results of an
open trade policy.

Do we want our standard of living to regress to the mean, in a global
sense?




Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote in
:

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.


Well, that sorta goes to my buried point.


The answer is to throw out our current tax system and replace it totally
with import duties. I don't care who makes it, if it enters the US it
gets hit with a tax that is in relation to the ratio of wages in our
country and the other country.

Over time this tax policy will motivate companies to locate here and
hire here. If another country is at our econimic level then there is an
even playing field and the import duties would be minimal.

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...



The manager types who want a global economy, and who may have been put
through bidness school by fathers who worked with their hands, want
access to cheap labor and goods.

No! You do! You want cheap cars, cheap lettuce and cheap TV's. Hell, I
want cheap cars and TV's (I don't like lettuce.)

Why is IT any different?
It's a burdensome cost on a business - like any milling machine in a plant.

You want cheap long distance?
You're forcing me to look for folks who can write software for $10 hour.

The problem is *us*.

Tom Watson wrote:
But the special exemptions stand.
Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.

Part of the problem is that the bums get to write the laws so that they
aren't affected. What other job gives a pension if you ever get hired,
no matter how long you stay? I've never had a job that let me vote
myself a raise, or take money from people to get the job in the first
place. Politicians are interested in taking money from anyone who
offers it and paying them back by granting favors if they get elected.
As long as that isn't seen as illegal this country will continue to go
down the tubes. Don't expect them to pass laws making it illegal.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:27:42 GMT, wrote:


Part of the problem is that the bums get to write the laws so that they
aren't affected. What other job gives a pension if you ever get hired,
no matter how long you stay? I've never had a job that let me vote
myself a raise, or take money from people to get the job in the first
place. Politicians are interested in taking money from anyone who
offers it and paying them back by granting favors if they get elected.
As long as that isn't seen as illegal this country will continue to go
down the tubes. Don't expect them to pass laws making it illegal.
Dave in Fairfax


So, run for office.

I'll send you a coupla bucks.

If I get to go to one of them big dinners and eat my fill of chicken.

Ain't it just so appropriate that low level political dinners serve
chicken?

My guess is that the menu is different on the level where the serious
money gets thrown around.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

I'd be willing to work for the wage that employers want to pay... if they
were willing to pay something that I could actually live on. And I'm not
even talking "oh, I can't live without $80k/yr to cover my house, three
cars, and boat", I mean, my last job I made $30k/yr, and while I would
have liked more, I could get by on $20k. I can't even get that anymore.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.

RB

Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:


All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?


My wife is the HR person for a company that rents out computer
consultants. These are mostly long term contracts that involve
programmers and project managers.

A large part of her job has come to be helping folks from India deal
with getting into the country so that they can take computer jobs away
from folks like you.

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.

But the special exemptions stand.

Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

my thoughts exactly.
as a single living with my parents at the moment I can get by on $15,000 per
year (that includes two student loans, car, insurance) but I tell you more
than that seems great. I mean hey better car, my own house, Loans get paid
off in large amounts (5 years instead of 20). you get the picture. It is
all about what we need vs. what we want. And yeah I can't even get that
anymore and my credit rating is going down the tubes, while the other guy is
spending like crazy.



--


"tmbg" wrote in message
news
I'd be willing to work for the wage that employers want to pay... if they
were willing to pay something that I could actually live on. And I'm not
even talking "oh, I can't live without $80k/yr to cover my house, three
cars, and boat", I mean, my last job I made $30k/yr, and while I would
have liked more, I could get by on $20k. I can't even get that anymore.

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:41:57 -0500, RB wrote:

There aren't enough qualified "Murrican IT people....who will work for
the wage that employers now want to pay. They just forgot to complete
the sentence.

RB

Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:


All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of
work
now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed overseas to
India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a nation full of
billions of people who got a PhD in computer science for free and who's
willing to work for $1USD/hour?


My wife is the HR person for a company that rents out computer
consultants. These are mostly long term contracts that involve
programmers and project managers.

A large part of her job has come to be helping folks from India deal
with getting into the country so that they can take computer jobs away
from folks like you.

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.

But the special exemptions stand.

Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:
Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


It came to light here recently in sWisconsin that the
gub'ment agency in charge of getting people off of the
welfare rolls and back to taxable paying jobs had contracted
their phone center work to a non-gub'ment private sector
firm who then re-contracted it to a call center in India.

Ironic, ain't it?

UA100

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:54:02 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


It came to light here recently in sWisconsin that the
gub'ment agency in charge of getting people off of the
welfare rolls and back to taxable paying jobs had contracted
their phone center work to a non-gub'ment private sector
firm who then re-contracted it to a call center in India.

Ironic, ain't it?

UA100


I've got these magnetic salt and pepper shakers that stick together
real good so the don't lose each other (I'm not sure why that would be
important but they were a gift).

I can't read the newspaper at the kitchen table no more because the
salt and pepper shakers jump off the table onto the broadsheet.

Attracted by all the irony contained therein, I'm guessing.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

I was wondering where that story was going.

--


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:54:02 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

Tom Watson wrote:
Throw the bums out - and put new bums in who will retract such laws.


It came to light here recently in sWisconsin that the
gub'ment agency in charge of getting people off of the
welfare rolls and back to taxable paying jobs had contracted
their phone center work to a non-gub'ment private sector
firm who then re-contracted it to a call center in India.

Ironic, ain't it?

UA100


I've got these magnetic salt and pepper shakers that stick together
real good so the don't lose each other (I'm not sure why that would be
important but they were a gift).

I can't read the newspaper at the kitchen table no more because the
salt and pepper shakers jump off the table onto the broadsheet.

Attracted by all the irony contained therein, I'm guessing.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

They speak better English than those welfare mothers?

I have more language problems (and repeats) from government affirmative
hires than the TAs at school, who are non-native speakers of American.

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
It came to light here recently in sWisconsin that the
gub'ment agency in charge of getting people off of the
welfare rolls and back to taxable paying jobs had contracted
their phone center work to a non-gub'ment private sector
firm who then re-contracted it to a call center in India.

Ironic, ain't it?

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:04:05 -0500, "George"
wrote:

They speak better English than those welfare mothers?

I have more language problems (and repeats) from government affirmative
hires than the TAs at school, who are non-native speakers of American.


Aside from the fact that the above is an incredibly tortured piece of
language; I haven't the slightest idea of what you are trying to say.

You do speak English as a first language?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...


On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:00:54 GMT, tmbg wrote:

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.


Tom,

I thought you said you picked the Chinese supplier for the low price.
I'm sending software projects to India for the exact same reason.

No void involved. Just "bidness" in a Global Economy.
Did I miss your point?

mttt asks:

The special laws that allow this sort of thing were passed by people
that we elected who claim that there are not enough qualified
'Murrican IT people and that rules needed to be relaxed to fill the
void,

What void? I don't see any void.


Tom,

I thought you said you picked the Chinese supplier for the low price.
I'm sending software projects to India for the exact same reason.

No void involved. Just "bidness" in a Global Economy.
Did I miss your point?

I think you did. He was talking about importing people to do jobs kept here,
not exporting jobs to other areas.

Different tree, so if you want to compare apples to apples, don't shake the
lemon tree.

Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

tmbg wrote:
All too true... I'm a mid-career software engineer that's been out of
work now for two years due to nearly all technical work headed
overseas to India, Czechoslovakia, etc. How can I compete with a
nation full of billions of people who got a PhD in computer science
for free and who's willing to work for $1USD/hour?

I got a B.S. in Computer Science in 1982 and have been expecting this for
years. Why? Writing software didn't used to be much different from the way
they built medival cathedrals -- lots of folks using hand tools to do jobs
that could be easily automated.

BTW, I lost my computering job as part of the .com crash and have yet to
earn more than about 40% of what I made before the crash. I feel your pain
as I feel my pain.

There used to be lots of farming jobs for people to drive teams of horses.
Tractors made those go away. Computer programming reached the same kind of
"lack of need for manual labor."

Adapt or die. Currently, I'm closer to dying... g

-- Mark

Well how about us poor Europeans,we have been members of the european
market for years,faithfully paid our taxes so the assholes in Brussels
can make rules and standards for how a carrott should look or what
constitutes a real chocolate bar or whether a farmer who has been making
cheese for centuries is making it to their standards.....well those
assholes have just given permission to Poland Czechoslovakia hungary and
**** load of other third world ex iron curtain countries to join our
happy band of west european lands.What effect will this have on my
working life.Poland had the cheek to say that they would only join if
their farmers got the same subsidies as the French.well **** them cheeky
*******s.I will not employ any of them even if it means me going
under,how long will it be before whats left of the manufacturing
industry ends up going east...they work for peanuts and they ain`t
monkeys.My neighbour has a holiday house in Czechoslovakia and had some
doors made there for less than I pay for the material.Globalisation
sucks big time,I was once quite left of middle in my political ideas but
they are beginning to swing to the right and that hurts
grunt grunt very unhappy so spare a thought for our futures as well and
dont buy Rojek stuff
Russell

Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?

Yeah, we got a real problem with our current crop of government officials.
They are committed to making us a third world country because they can't get
close enough to the lobbyist and corporate money pits. One recent example is
in the prescription bill which congress approved. There is a provision where
the government cannot negotiate costs with any of the drug manufacturers,
sweet isn't it?

I am retired now and thank God for that everyday. I am truly saddened by
what I am seeing happening. It is not the America I grew up in where almost
anyone who wanted to work could find a decent paying job and even support a
family on one wage and still have money left over at the end of the week.

What's the answer? Maybe term limits of one term and above all, the
elimination of all special interests and lobbyists for starters. In
addition, a little compassion for your fellow Murricans, boycotting Walmart
(China's 8th largest trade partner) and Lowes (outsourcing to India some of
their back office operations) might be a step in the right direction.

Mike


"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?


My first question to my boss, when we were sending drawings over to
the Chinese guy, with the name of our customer printed all over them,
was - "What's to keep the Chinese guy from doing an end run around us
and going direct to our customer?"

Ya see, the Chinese guy is a store fixture manufacturer, not just a
metal fabricator.

My bosses answer was, "He doesn't sell in our market."

I'm a FNG, having only been in this job for about a month - so I
didn't complete the thought with, "Yeah, not yet."

I like my new job. I don't like the fact that my company buys from
China but the Chinese guy was the low bidder. I'm fifty-three years
old with knees that are too bad to work in the shop full time anymore.

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

.... snip

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.



.... and there lies the heart of the problem. For all of the anger at
Bush's approach, the other side doesn't like Bush's plan because it
doesn't go far enough and is not an all-out stated amnesty for these
folks. You don't see either side pushing to make the borders secure and
stop illegal immigrants. Neither side is pushing to stop the H-1B
problem for professional immigrants either.

Yep, where ya gonna go?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

What H-1B problem Mark?

Rob

--



******PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW EMAIL ADDRESS******



Please visit our (recently updated) web site:
http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
s.com...
In article ,
says...
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:

... snip

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.



... and there lies the heart of the problem. For all of the anger at
Bush's approach, the other side doesn't like Bush's plan because it
doesn't go far enough and is not an all-out stated amnesty for these
folks. You don't see either side pushing to make the borders secure and
stop illegal immigrants. Neither side is pushing to stop the H-1B
problem for professional immigrants either.

Yep, where ya gonna go?


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article laWUb.4832$Qa3.3887@edtnps89, says...
What H-1B problem Mark?

Rob



H1-B's are the visas used to import foreign professional jobs. There
has been a quota on the number of those visas that are permitted to be
issued per year. Cries of "engineer shortage" from various industries
led to raising the quota on H1-Bs. The original idea was to allow
hiring foreign workers when no domestic professionals are available to
fill job openings. The employer must advertise and be able to prove
that there are no qualified domestic professionals to be had in order to
get an H1-B worker. What has happened is some employers will advertise
for a ridiculous position, such as a mechanical engineer with 10 years
of experience, finite element modeling experience, and a PhD, salary:
$42k per year. Of course no qualified domestic employee would take that
salary,but there are foreigners who will. Since the quota was raised (I
believe it occurred during about the mid-90's during the ".com boom")

Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:


Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?



My first question to my boss, when we were sending drawings over to
the Chinese guy, with the name of our customer printed all over them,
was - "What's to keep the Chinese guy from doing an end run around us
and going direct to our customer?"

Ya see, the Chinese guy is a store fixture manufacturer, not just a
metal fabricator.

My bosses answer was, "He doesn't sell in our market."

I'm a FNG, having only been in this job for about a month - so I
didn't complete the thought with, "Yeah, not yet."

I like my new job. I don't like the fact that my company buys from
China but the Chinese guy was the low bidder. I'm fifty-three years
old with knees that are too bad to work in the shop full time anymore.

My protest will be filed next November.

How? There doesn't appear to be a choice worth voting for. I used to
be able to pick the "least worst." Can't even figure out how to do that
this time.

RB

"On election day, I will be essentially doing the same thing you folks
are doing, except that when I'm finished masturbating I'm gonna have a
little more to show for it."

- George Carlin


I'm just not sure how, yet.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Sounds like the NY governor elections...............

--


"RB" wrote in message
...


Tom Watson wrote:
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 01:30:50 GMT, "Mike" wrote:


Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure
it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get
the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?



My first question to my boss, when we were sending drawings over to
the Chinese guy, with the name of our customer printed all over them,
was - "What's to keep the Chinese guy from doing an end run around us
and going direct to our customer?"

Ya see, the Chinese guy is a store fixture manufacturer, not just a
metal fabricator.

My bosses answer was, "He doesn't sell in our market."

I'm a FNG, having only been in this job for about a month - so I
didn't complete the thought with, "Yeah, not yet."

I like my new job. I don't like the fact that my company buys from
China but the Chinese guy was the low bidder. I'm fifty-three years
old with knees that are too bad to work in the shop full time anymore.

My protest will be filed next November.

How? There doesn't appear to be a choice worth voting for. I used to
be able to pick the "least worst." Can't even figure out how to do that
this time.

RB

"On election day, I will be essentially doing the same thing you folks
are doing, except that when I'm finished masturbating I'm gonna have a
little more to show for it."

- George Carlin


I'm just not sure how, yet.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson wrote:

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.

Bill Cosby 2004!

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan responds:

Tom Watson wrote:

My protest will be filed next November.

I'm just not sure how, yet.

Bill Cosby 2004!

Jesus. Don't we have enough arrogance in DC already?

Charlie Self
"We're 269 days from the election, and that's several political lifetimes."
TERRY HOLT, Bush campaign spokesman.


http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Charlie Self wrote:

Bill Cosby 2004!

Jesus. Don't we have enough arrogance in DC already?

Come on now. Chocolate cake for breakfast, Jell-O pudding pops for
everyone... What could be better?

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Mike" wrote in message
news:e7CUb.234130$na.377281@attbi_s04...
What's the answer? Maybe term limits of one term and above all, the
elimination of all special interests and lobbyists for starters. In
addition, a little compassion for your fellow Murricans, boycotting
Walmart
(China's 8th largest trade partner) and Lowes (outsourcing to India some
of
their back office operations) might be a step in the right direction.

The answer is a change of attitude and the controlling of greed. But, it's
never going to happen. Who would complain that they were making too much
money at a million dollars a year? Take an athlete making many times that
and always negotiating for more. If you or I were making five million a year
and it was arbitrarily reduced to a million a year, we would scream our
damned heads off. It's all about personal greed not much else. Eventually
the time will come when the money grubbers will be overwhelmed by the have
nots, but a lot is going to happen before that time.

Upscale wrote:
..

The answer is a change of attitude and the controlling of greed. But,
it's never going to happen. Who would complain that they were making
too much money at a million dollars a year? Take an athlete making
many times that and always negotiating for more. If you or I were
making five million a year and it was arbitrarily reduced to a
million a year, we would scream our damned heads off. It's all about
personal greed not much else. Eventually the time will come when the
money grubbers will be overwhelmed by the have nots, but a lot is
going to happen before that time.

You bring up a good point. I've heard many peoplecomplain about corporate
greed and how the big salary of the CEO is driving up their prices. Then
the same guy will be talking sports and the $30million contract that Pete
the Pitcher just signed nd say "he's good, he's worth it". And pay an
inflated price for Budweiser to support him.

--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 05:48:47 GMT, "Upscale"
wrote:


The answer is a change of attitude and the controlling of greed.

If there is "An Answer", it is a change in concept, back to a previous
concept that we all shared, through education and enculturation.

We were, once upon a time, taught "Citizenship". We learned that we
were a part of a whole.and that we had both rights and
responsibilities.

I hear a lot of people making a lot of noise about "rights' but I do
not hear a concomittent outcry regarding "responsibilities".

At some point we were all convinced that we had become "Consumers",
who have no responsibilities and who have only rights.

We must again engage the burdens and blessings of Citizenship and
perform our natural function in the Polis.



Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Tom Watson responds:

The answer is a change of attitude and the controlling of greed.

If there is "An Answer", it is a change in concept, back to a previous
concept that we all shared, through education and enculturation.

We were, once upon a time, taught "Citizenship". We learned that we
were a part of a whole.and that we had both rights and
responsibilities.

I hear a lot of people making a lot of noise about "rights' but I do
not hear a concomittent outcry regarding "responsibilities".

At some point we were all convinced that we had become "Consumers",
who have no responsibilities and who have only rights.

Yes. Case in point: my wife and I educate ourselves as much as possible for
every election, local, state and national. We vote, or try to, the issues. The
youngest kid has yet to vote and may never: she's 28 going on 29, and does her
civic "duty" working as a court clerk.

Why?

You got me.

We must again engage the burdens and blessings of Citizenship and
perform our natural function in the Polis

But how, when probably 60% of the public isn't interested, and half or more of
the rest is rabidly for or against some party platform that is of slight
importance on any long term scheme of things?

HTF do we get them interested?

Charlie Self
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first." Mark Twain

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

Charlie Self wrote:

We must again engage the burdens and blessings of Citizenship and
perform our natural function in the Polis

But how, when probably 60% of the public isn't interested, and half
or more of the rest is rabidly for or against some party platform
that is of slight importance on any long term scheme of things?

HTF do we get them interested?

Unfortunately it will probably take personal pain. Like if Jane Fonda had
lived for 5 to 10 years as a *non* *celeb* in North Vietnam.

-- Mark

On 07 Feb 2004 12:13:24 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

We must again engage the burdens and blessings of Citizenship and
perform our natural function in the Polis

But how, when probably 60% of the public isn't interested, and half or more of
the rest is rabidly for or against some party platform that is of slight
importance on any long term scheme of things?

HTF do we get them interested?

The problem has become that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you
get the same result. You don't have walnut, oak and maple, it's just
poplar stained differently. People stop voting when they feel that
their vote makes no difference. I've voted in every election I could
since I reach legal age, but there is precious little to recommend
doing so. No matter who wins the economic foolishness will continue
and there is basically nothing that can be done about it at the polls.

If we want people to be interested in voting there need to be real
choices and real impact on what happens in government. Trying to
select between 2 moderate Democans running for president just doesn't
seem to matter. We won't see any better choices as long as the
campaign process is focused on finding fault with opponents. No
decent, intelligent person wants to run for office and face all the
garbage. I'd run for office because of my convictions, but absolutely
never will because of some stupid things I did when I was young. Only
those whose egos are big enough to allow them to ignore their own
faults are willing to run, so you get Bush, Clinton, Gore, Dean, Clark
et. al. and as far as I can tell there isn't a nickel's worth of
difference between them. So I'll keep my nickel and use it to tune my
table saw.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has thought of that. It would seem that
what everyone is pushing these days is buying low and selling high. Just be
a middleman, don't actually make anything. What happens when your customer
finds out that he doesn't need a middleman to take a cut. Buy direct. How
about when the Chinese company that is selling you this stuff finds out what
kind of markup you are putting on it and starts selling retail. He can
underprice you and cut you right out. I'm starting to think that all those
years that I spent in school (machining, drafting, electronics, computers)
were a waste. I should have gone for a law degree so I could be a politician
too. Problem is, my moral standards are just to high to be a professional
sleezeball.

"Mike" wrote in message
news:e7CUb.234130$na.377281@attbi_s04...
Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure
it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get
the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?

you don't need a law degree to be a politician.

--


"CW" wrote in message
...
I'm glad I'm not the only one that has thought of that. It would seem that
what everyone is pushing these days is buying low and selling high. Just
be
a middleman, don't actually make anything. What happens when your customer
finds out that he doesn't need a middleman to take a cut. Buy direct. How
about when the Chinese company that is selling you this stuff finds out
what
kind of markup you are putting on it and starts selling retail. He can
underprice you and cut you right out. I'm starting to think that all those
years that I spent in school (machining, drafting, electronics, computers)
were a waste. I should have gone for a law degree so I could be a
politician
too. Problem is, my moral standards are just to high to be a professional
sleezeball.

"Mike" wrote in message
news:e7CUb.234130$na.377281@attbi_s04...
Gee Tom,

Maybe next time the guy who gave you the store fixture order will figure
it
out that he doesn't need your high priced Murrican labor and he can get
the
fixtures from China also. Think about it, we are all in this together
aren't we?

Mike wrote:

almost anyone who wanted to work could find a decent paying job and even
support a family on one wage and still have money left over at the end of
the week.

Well, that definitely used to be true, but my grandpa got me to thinking
about this the other day. When he retired, he was making $7 an hour in
1977 dollars. Looks like just under $21 an hour today, or a tad less than
$44,000 a year today.

Now, that's more than I make right now, but less than my wife and I make
together. We could live on a single income of $44,000, but not without
getting rid of cable TV, Pizza Friday, the occasional CD or DVD, a toy or
two for the kids, and basically all the other frivolous bacon fat of life
that is unnecessary, not particularly good for you, but oh so tasty. Like
my *shop*, say.

Looking at my grandparents today, they have enough money in the bank that
they can go buy whatever they want with $20 bills by the suitcase full.
They're not millionaires, but Paw-Paw has been retired since 1977, and he's
got more money now than when he retired. My grandmother has never had a
job in her life, and didn't even get a driver's license until she was in
her late 60s.

All of this on a single income, with less money (adjusted for inflation)
than my wife and I make today. How did they do it?

They didn't have any bacon fat at all. They grew up during the Depression,
and they learned to be thrifty in a way that my whole generation, even my
parents' generation, just can't understand.

We buy too many DVDs. We watch too many movies, pay too much for cable TV,
buy too many Delta Unisaws (OBWWR), buy too many computers, pay too much
for high speed internet, drive expensive SUVs that get terrible gas
mileage... We throw things away instead of fixing them. We throw things
away that are perfectly good, just because we like the color of the new one
better.

Few people today have ever had to wear feed sacks. Few people today have
ever recycled wrapping paper. Few people today would be content to raise a
family of three in a tiny four-room asbestos-shingled tract house with one
TV, one radio, one car out front, no clothes drier, no dishwasher, no
microwave oven, no cable TV, etc., etc., etc. Few people would still have
the same carpet on the floor for 40+ years.

If we looked at someone living in a house like that today, under those
conditions, we'd probably consider that they were poor. So how could poor
people have amassed a fortune well into the hundreds of thousands?

Because they didn't spend money unless they *had* to, and because they saved
and invested. My grandparents have never paid interest for *anything* in
their lives. Cars, houses, TVs, and yes, more recently, VCRs and DVD
players; everything has always been purchased with cash. No interest, and
the discipline to pay in full or do without.

A lot of wisdom has been lost, I think.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/