On 12 Feb 2004 03:29:23 GMT, (David Hall) wrote:

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it
almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC. In retrospect
all the terror tactics of WWI and WWII backfired. Perhaps that is
something that today's crop of terrorists need to realize - that
terror tactics have historically done more damage to the perpetrators
than to the victims. The German air attacks on London, intended to
instill terror in the people and bring about capitulation, instead
hardened the resolve of a nation that was on the brink of seeking a
compromise. In many ways you can say that Germany's defeat in WWII was
a direct result of their terror attacks. Terrorism as a means of
breaking the will of a group of people has failed virtually every time
it has been used.

Tim Douglass

Seemed to work on Japan.

I suppose that's true in a way, but I see a terror attack as an
attempt to cow the people through attacks that are focused entirely on
civilians to create an atmosphere of fear and doubt. The atomic bomb
attacks were not really intended to undermine the morale of the
civilian population but to demonstrate to the Japanese military that
we had the means to totally destroy them. It may not be a real
distinction, but it is sort of a contrast between attacking from
weakness and attacking from strength. Terrorism is normally used when
you are attacking from a weak position.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On 12 Feb 2004 10:20:34 -0800, (WoodChuck34)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.

I see 2 editions in my library system; 2nd ca. 1971 and
3rd ca. 1978. What year was yours put out? How quick
are the 438 pages to read? Is the info still timely?

I picked up Amy Chua's "World On Fi How Exporting Free
Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability"
at the library today. That and "The Pleasure of Finding
Things Out: The best short works of Richard Feynman".
I'll probably have more fun with the latter, y'think?


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

In article , Larry Jaques
says...
On 12 Feb 2004 10:20:34 -0800, (WoodChuck34)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.

I see 2 editions in my library system; 2nd ca. 1971 and
3rd ca. 1978. What year was yours put out? How quick
are the 438 pages to read? Is the info still timely?

I picked up Amy Chua's "World On Fi How Exporting Free
Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability"
at the library today.

If the title is indicative of the content, that seems a singularly
self-centered, arrogant attitude: "we have freedom, but it would be
wrong to help other people achieve such freedom. They and the world are
so much better off under the thumbs of despotic rulers". Either that or
it is a whine for "... we should not have the freedom we do either, we
need a dictator to tell us what to do. i.e. a self-abasing work on how
too much choice and freedom are bad for the world -- but probably, of
course excluding the author, who by virtue of her unique and lofty
insights should be one of those telling the sheep what to do". Or, is
the title satirical?

No, I don't believe in judging a book by its cover, but the title is
(or at least better be) an indication of what is inside.

That and "The Pleasure of Finding
Things Out: The best short works of Richard Feynman".
I'll probably have more fun with the latter, y'think?

Larry Jaques wrote in message . ..
On 12 Feb 2004 10:20:34 -0800, (WoodChuck34)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.

I see 2 editions in my library system; 2nd ca. 1971 and
3rd ca. 1978. What year was yours put out? How quick
are the 438 pages to read? Is the info still timely?

I picked up Amy Chua's "World On Fi How Exporting Free
Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability"
at the library today. That and "The Pleasure of Finding
Things Out: The best short works of Richard Feynman".
I'll probably have more fun with the latter, y'think?

I checked for my copy last night and I couldn't find it, so I'll have
to do a more thorough search. I can't remember what the copyright is
but as far as timeliness, I read it for an economics class in college
(call Problems with the American Economy, incidentally) in 1994.

Like any Economist, he makes certain assumptions, but I think after
reading the book it certainly explains why we've become a service
oriented economy and gives you some direction for the future even if
his theories are not 100% accurate.

Enjoy!

Tim Douglass wrote in message . ..
On 12 Feb 2004 03:29:23 GMT, (David Hall) wrote:

Dresden, I dunno. I'm not as familiar with the rationale there, but it
almost
certainly was felt to be necessary at the time.

Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC. In retrospect
all the terror tactics of WWI and WWII backfired. Perhaps that is
something that today's crop of terrorists need to realize - that
terror tactics have historically done more damage to the perpetrators
than to the victims. The German air attacks on London, intended to
instill terror in the people and bring about capitulation, instead
hardened the resolve of a nation that was on the brink of seeking a
compromise. In many ways you can say that Germany's defeat in WWII was
a direct result of their terror attacks. Terrorism as a means of
breaking the will of a group of people has failed virtually every time
it has been used.

Tim Douglass

Seemed to work on Japan.

I suppose that's true in a way, but I see a terror attack as an
attempt to cow the people through attacks that are focused entirely on
civilians to create an atmosphere of fear and doubt. The atomic bomb
attacks were not really intended to undermine the morale of the
civilian population but to demonstrate to the Japanese military that
we had the means to totally destroy them. It may not be a real
distinction, but it is sort of a contrast between attacking from
weakness and attacking from strength. Terrorism is normally used when
you are attacking from a weak position.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

First let me say that I basically agree with Truman's decision to drop
the bombs on Japan. That said, those bombs and especially such bombing
campaigns as Dresden and the firebombing of numerous Japanese cities
were specifically designed to terrorize the civilian populations into
no longer supporting their governments and war efforts. They were a
larger scale and more intense version of Sherman's march to the sea.
They clearly were not destruction of war production nor even partially
attempts to destroy armed forces - they were terror campaigns. What
should not be lost in the analysis was that no matter how horrible the
non-nuclear attacks were (and they were exteremely horrible) they had
little impact on shortening the war in either Europe or Japan. The
germans were simply not going to capitulate until the armies battled
it out and forced the death of Hitler. No amount of mass destruction
of their cities or deaths of civilians seemed to matter. I don't know,
but I do not doubt that Dresdan and other massive destruction of
non-military or industrial sites had little impact on the time it took
to get Germany to surrender or in the total number of allied
casualties. In Japan it seems quite clear that even though we were
firebombing cities right and left that Japan was prepared to fight to
the bitter end. The massive destruction of their civilian
infrastructure and civilian deaths did not seem to be ending the war.
The atomic bombings, however, were so horrible because it was so quick
and total that the strategy finally did actually accomplish its
intended goal.

Mark & Juanita wrote:


(someone else wrote)I picked up Amy Chua's "World On Fi How Exporting Free
Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability"
at the library today.


If the title is indicative of the content, that seems a singularly
self-centered, arrogant attitude: "we have freedom, but it would be
wrong to help other people achieve such freedom. They and the world are
so much better off under the thumbs of despotic rulers". Either that or
it is a whine for "... we should not have the freedom we do either, we
need a dictator to tell us what to do. i.e. a self-abasing work on how
too much choice and freedom are bad for the world -- but probably, of
course excluding the author, who by virtue of her unique and lofty
insights should be one of those telling the sheep what to do". Or, is
the title satirical?



First your point (?) is disjunctive. You seem to think the worlds made up of
either dictators or democracies. I assure you this is not the case.

If you wish to define democracy as having complete freedom then we all live in a
dictatorship. We are not free to do as we wish, in all things, even if it does
not effect others.

Second, you seem to believe Free Market Democracy is a one size fits all
solution. You seem to believe the entire world should embrace what you hold
dear. You assume these people want what you believe in.

Third, you seem to believe we are justified in forcing our beliefs on others.
What a marvel of arrogance.

Mark, for someone claiming to have the ability to see a 'big picture' you
certainly are myopic.




--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 04:30:59 GMT, Mark & Juanita
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article , Larry Jaques
says...
On 12 Feb 2004 10:20:34 -0800, (WoodChuck34)
brought forth from the murky depths:

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.

I see 2 editions in my library system; 2nd ca. 1971 and
3rd ca. 1978. What year was yours put out? How quick
are the 438 pages to read? Is the info still timely?

I picked up Amy Chua's "World On Fi How Exporting Free
Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability"
at the library today.

If the title is indicative of the content, that seems a singularly
self-centered, arrogant attitude: "we have freedom, but it would be
wrong to help other people achieve such freedom. They and the world are
so much better off under the thumbs of despotic rulers".

Judging by your remark, you might want to do a quick check
on any possible personal arrogance, Mark. =:0 What works
for us (or does it?) doesn't necessarily work in an entirely
different environment with entirely different cultures and
histories.


Either that or
it is a whine for "... we should not have the freedom we do either, we
need a dictator to tell us what to do. i.e. a self-abasing work on how
too much choice and freedom are bad for the world -- but probably, of
course excluding the author, who by virtue of her unique and lofty
insights should be one of those telling the sheep what to do". Or, is
the title satirical?

To paraphrase the overleaf (I haven't yet read it.) says "we
thought it would bring world peace but the effects turned out
just the opposite."


No, I don't believe in judging a book by its cover, but the title is
(or at least better be) an indication of what is inside.

I'm sure the content is provocative as well.
Read Kaplan's "The Coming Anarchy" and you'll be a whole
lot more understanding about the title, Mark.

That and "The Pleasure of Finding
Things Out: The best short works of Richard Feynman".
I'll probably have more fun with the latter, y'think?

What, no comment on this one?


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On 13 Feb 2004 06:39:40 -0800, (David Hall)
wrote:

First let me say that I basically agree with Truman's decision to drop
the bombs on Japan. That said, those bombs and especially such bombing
campaigns as Dresden and the firebombing of numerous Japanese cities
were specifically designed to terrorize the civilian populations into
no longer supporting their governments and war efforts. They were a
larger scale and more intense version of Sherman's march to the sea.
They clearly were not destruction of war production nor even partially
attempts to destroy armed forces - they were terror campaigns. What
should not be lost in the analysis was that no matter how horrible the
non-nuclear attacks were (and they were exteremely horrible) they had
little impact on shortening the war in either Europe or Japan. The
germans were simply not going to capitulate until the armies battled
it out and forced the death of Hitler. No amount of mass destruction
of their cities or deaths of civilians seemed to matter. I don't know,
but I do not doubt that Dresdan and other massive destruction of
non-military or industrial sites had little impact on the time it took
to get Germany to surrender or in the total number of allied
casualties. In Japan it seems quite clear that even though we were
firebombing cities right and left that Japan was prepared to fight to
the bitter end. The massive destruction of their civilian
infrastructure and civilian deaths did not seem to be ending the war.
The atomic bombings, however, were so horrible because it was so quick
and total that the strategy finally did actually accomplish its
intended goal.

Well stated. My original point was exactly as you state - that
(setting aside the atomic bombs) no terror campaign had any impact on
shortening the war. I think that is generally true in regard to
terrorism as a military tactic, it has an almost 100% failure rate.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

(David Hall) wrote in message . com...

First let me say that I basically agree with Truman's decision to drop
the bombs on Japan. That said, those bombs and especially such bombing
campaigns as Dresden and the firebombing of numerous Japanese cities
were specifically designed to terrorize the civilian populations into
no longer supporting their governments and war efforts. They were a
larger scale and more intense version of Sherman's march to the sea.
They clearly were not destruction of war production nor even partially
attempts to destroy armed forces - they were terror campaigns.


But they _were_ in fact partially that.

The "Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works" and "Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance
Works/Torpedo Works" were destroyed beyond repair by the Nagasaki
bomb.

The Hiroshima bomb exploded near the headquarters of the Japanese
Third Army (responsible for the defense of Kyushu) and instantly
killed 20,000 soldiers stationed there.

Tim Douglass wrote in message . ..
On 10 Feb 2004 19:31:46 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC.


Yes, in regards to the British attack that deliberately bombed
throughout the city to create a firestorm.

But no, in regards to the US attack, which focused on the Dresden
railyards.

Tim Douglass writes:

Tim Douglass wrote in message
...
On 10 Feb 2004 19:31:46 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:


Dresden was an acknowledged terror attack, carried out with the same
rationale and justification as the attacks on the WTC.


Yes, in regards to the British attack that deliberately bombed
throughout the city to create a firestorm.

But no, in regards to the US attack, which focused on the Dresden

Fair enough. But...I was NOT the poster of the above. I said up front that I
didn't know enough about the rationale of the Dresden bombing to classify it.
Someone responded with the above answer.

Charlie Self
"Love is not the dying moan of a distant violin - it's the triumphant twang of
a bedspring." S. J. Perelman

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

In article ,
(WoodChuck34) wrote:

Anyone interested in researching this problem should read

"The New Industrial State" by John Kenneth Galbraith

It may open some eyes.

Each American may witness the conclusive proof that Bush2 facilitated
9-11: http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/2002/06/scsb.bush.mov

Tie that reality to Project for the New American Century's "prescient"
design for Big Oil in the Middle East;

The indisputable fact that Bush1 was instrumental in the assassinaton of
JFK in service to Rome and Rockefeller's CFR
http://www.bobharris.com/cooldocs/bushmemo.htm Proof Bush in CIA when
they killed JFK.
http://www.internetpirate.com/bush.htm Proof Bush1 was 100miles from
Dealey Plaza 75 minutes after assassination...though has proclaimed his
inability to recall his whereabouts upon learning of JFK's assassination.

Cap it with grandfather Prescott Bush's having capitalized Adolf Hitler
on behalf of Rome and their banker Rockefeller...for whom Bushes/Walkers
have worked for four generations.

Those who know of a conspiracy and fail to do anything about it are part
of it....this one is shedding much innocent blood.

Kerry is no better...just "backup" should Bush be I.D.'d.

Righteous Nation frothed:
Those who know of a conspiracy

It must be a full moon. He's from Bellsouth.net, BTW.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

If Detroit started putting together a reliable electric car with a
reliable wind electric generator; a reliable photovoltaic panel and a
reliable exercise machine electric generator-to charge the car's
battery: I'de buy it on the spot! The problem is in places like
Detroit- not Peking!



Tom Watson wrote in message . ..
Today I was making up Purchase Orders for fabricated steel parts to go
into a store fixture project that I'm working on.

I had sent out a half dozen Requests For Quote to five 'Murrican
suppliers and one to a fella over in China. The guy in China was
recommended to the company that I work for as a cheap and reliable
source for fabricated metal parts.

One of the 'Murrican suppliers is just on the other side of the wall
from where our offices are (He's the guy with the welder that makes my
computer screen jump when it fires off).

The least involved piece that I sent out for quote came back at $6.05
from the low bidder - that is the low bidder who was a "Murrican.

The guy in China quoted a price that would make it $0.87, when the
shipping fees were added that would get the pieces to our warehouse.
You don't even want to know what the price was without shipping.

Lest you think that the guy in China is a stinkpot operation that
cranks out easy to do stuff with slave labor - all the complicated
stuff was similarly below the nearest 'Murrican bidder and the guys
quotes came in on the best looking computerized format of any of the
bidders, quoting weights, volumes and shipping costs and quoting a
firm leadtime (to the day) as opposed to the "three to six weeks" of
the 'Murricans.

Guess who I was writing out the Purchase Order to?

Yeah, it's bidness but it's damned sad.

It seems to me that the guys we've come to let be in charge of this
country have decided that we will be a nation of managers, paper
pushers and the kind of professionals who support bidness type stuff.

What are we going to do with all of our guys who work in factories, if
this continues?

Will economics drive them into an underclass that we will pay, through
welfare, to keep them from revolting - for a while?

What will we do when we have to manufacture defense items but no
longer have the ability?

Somebody done gave away the store.

I'm paying careful attention to this election. I don't see much in
the way of raw talent that will make for much of a change.

Same guys. Same attitudes. Same relation to money.

Maybe I'll start studying Mandarin.


Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
(Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

misterfact blathers:

If Detroit started putting together a reliable electric car with a
reliable wind electric generator; a reliable photovoltaic panel and a
reliable exercise machine electric generator-to charge the car's
battery: I'de buy it on the spot! The problem is in places like
Detroit- not Peking!


Sure you would. The whole package. A reliable wind generation system is fairly
complex--what happens on the days the wind doesn't blow and your batteries are
already drawn down, and the sun doesn't shine? If you want to pedal a bike for
the time it takes to charge batteries large enough to move a car, go for it.
I've got bad knees.

And you're writing of an end product of several industries, not one, while
you're ignoring the fact that many U.S. manufacturing jobs are moving to China,
if not to Peking. Would you buy the same unit if it were designed and made in
China--for half the price of the U.S. made unit? That's the problem being
discussed.

Charlie Self
"Health food makes me sick." Calvin Trillin

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html