Mark Jerde responds:

My understanding (which could be wrong) is the U.S. lacks many of the
necessary quantities of raw materials (like oil and many metals) for
extended self-sustained manufacturing anyway.

Oh, hell yeah. But we've got all the oil we need for 10 mpg SUVs.

Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

Manny Davis responds:

I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this
one. Even a bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably
haven't for several years.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/

Unfortunately, they seem to have everything but. What I'm talking about is the
Microsoft Natural keyboard, with the two splits in the keys that let your
wrists arch more naturally.

Helps reduce my carpal tunnel symptoms...and I've been using it so long, it's a
PITA to use a straight keyboard now.

Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.

It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.


I'd agree though that US minimum wage jobs aren't the ones going to
China.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:25:58 -0500, "RKON"
wrote:

I work selling
software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to India,
China and Phillipines.

I'm an unemployed UK IT guy. _My_ job didn't go to India, but I used
to write software that was used by people in UK call centres. As their
jobs went to India (and they surely are going), there was no longer a
need for people like me in the UK.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.

It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.

So what are YOU going to do about it?
Really, I'm curious about what individuals are going to do in the face of
this over the next 10-50 years.

-Jack

RKON wrote:
Steve:

I think you need to wake up about jobs going oversea's. I work selling
software and all of my clients are moving their IT staff over to
India, China and Phillipines. It is call L-1 Visa's and offshoring.
These are $40,000 -100,000+ jobs. Never coming back. Go to
Businessweek.com and search on L-1 Visa or outsourcing. You will be
suprised that it is also accounting, radiology, engineering,
architects, drafting,and on and on.

(I lost my computer-related job as part of the .com crash and have yet to
make 50% of the income I was making before. I personally feel the pain.)

If indeed we're in a global economy, why isn't this "natural" or even
"desireable"? The key is for the workers who lost their jobs to find other
ways to add even more value to the entire human species. See the writings
of Paul Zane Pilzer for more on this.

I have yet to realize the way in which I can add sufficient value to the
human race to derive the income I wish to receive, but believe me, I'm
working on it. You can't sit around and wish for things to be as they used
to be!

-- Mark

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

BRuce wrote in message news:1068494853.663258@sj-nntpcache-3...

minimum wage has nothing to do with offshore jobs, just greed, plain ole
Merican greed.

Greed is a portion of the equation. Consumers DEMAND low prices. Are you
willing to pay a higher price for USA made goods?

I would if the product was in fact superior, however most are not. Yup,
I know I'm adding to the overall problem too.

Andy Dingley wrote:

I'm an unemployed UK IT guy. _My_ job didn't go to India, but I used
to write software that was used by people in UK call centres. As their
jobs went to India (and they surely are going), there was no longer a
need for people like me in the UK.

Once upon a time I was a super-expert (IMHO g) on xBASE, especially on
combination DOS / UNIX development and implementation. I was the lead on
one project that literally took xBASE to its design limits in the call
stack. I architected and implemented a data-dictionary based directory
crawler that would update database versions overnight. (Extremely necessary
when developing systems whilst data entry people were typing in data. g)

Then Microsoft released MS Access 1.0 for $99.00. Literally overnight, I
saw all my hard-won
SET EXCLUSIVE ON
skills had gone the way of the horse and buggy.

Adapt or die.

Currently, I'm closer to dying than adapting, but I'm trying... g

-- Mark

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II.

It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.


I'd agree though that US minimum wage jobs aren't the ones going to
China.

Back when I used to make a lot of money as a software programmer, I knew it
was a short-term jig. Much of what I spent time doing was trivial,
repetitive, and essentially useless.

I have a book titled "Bus Maintenance" from the 1920's. Lots of mechanics
were employed in those days fixing problems many people today haven't seen a
single example of -- like broken axles. I bought my first home/business
computer in 1983. From the mid 1980's to the .dot com crash I fixed a lot
of software broken axles. The basic engineering has improved in both cases
so you don't need a room full of people. Toyota's don't (as a rule) break
their axles; connecting PCs on a network doesn't "break their axles" anymore
either.

Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.

-- Mark

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" wrote:

So what are YOU going to do about it?

Well right this week, I'm planning on starving 8-(

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:55:02 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.

8-)

I did fairly well on the dot.com boom (but nothing like as well as
some). Now I'm chasing work that isn't there, for rates that are
somewhere near they were 15 years ago, and less than half I was
getting two years ago.

I'm old. I was doing this stuff _long_ before the dot.com thing, and
I'm good at it (if I go to an overseas conference, it's because I'm an
invited speaker). But there's a horde of mid-20s dot-com idiot Nathans
out there who think they know it all, yet will now work for peanuts.
It's very hard to find work in this climate.

Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
to run a business (BTDT, hated it).

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" wrote:

So what are YOU going to do about it?

Well right this week, I'm planning on starving 8-(

Guess the bottom has fallen out of the trebuchet market...

-Jack

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:55:02 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Much of the .com boom was the incompetent doing the unnecessary for the
unrealistic, with the net result of inconsequentiallty.

8-)

I did fairly well on the dot.com boom (but nothing like as well as
some). Now I'm chasing work that isn't there, for rates that are
somewhere near they were 15 years ago, and less than half I was
getting two years ago.

I'm old. I was doing this stuff _long_ before the dot.com thing, and
I'm good at it (if I go to an overseas conference, it's because I'm an
invited speaker). But there's a horde of mid-20s dot-com idiot Nathans
out there who think they know it all, yet will now work for peanuts.
It's very hard to find work in this climate.

Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
to run a business (BTDT, hated it).

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Try building furniture with bellbottoms...

-Jack "Trying to be helpful here"

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:43:21 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Adapt or die.

I have no intention of "adapting" to a new skillset.
I _invent_ the new skillsets.

A local research lab is currently working on triple stores for RDF
(what you use when you realise XML doesn't work). The prototypes they
have are still very inefficient and damned slow on large datasets. One
day they'll notice that one of the patents I left there three years
ago solves a useful piece of this. ( Or maybe the whole company will
fold first. )

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

JackD wrote:

Try building furniture with bellbottoms...

LOL! I was in high school in the 1970's. I'd still wear bell bottoms if
they were available!

-- Mark

Andy Dingley wrote:

Adapt or die.

I have no intention of "adapting" to a new skillset.
I _invent_ the new skillsets.

A local research lab is currently working on triple stores for RDF
(what you use when you realise XML doesn't work). The prototypes they
have are still very inefficient and damned slow on large datasets. One
day they'll notice that one of the patents I left there three years
ago solves a useful piece of this. ( Or maybe the whole company will
fold first. )

(100% honest) Best of luck to you!

-- Mark

Andy Dingley writes:

Even woodworking isn't paying. All I can get is minimum-wage labouring
work. I can't even get a decent joinery job, because I'm not
officially trained as a toobefour chopsaw merchant. Then I come home
to my own workshop and agonise over the accuracy of my 17th century
sandarac varnish formulation, or the exact proportions of a Greene &
Greene bridle joint. The only option seems to be selling my own work,
but that's fighting against Ikea's pricing and I really _don't_ want
to run a business (BTDT, hated it).

Well, then...I'm working on a couple books, but, like you, I had no intention
of going back in business, at least full-time, again, until Ms MBA changed my
mind abruptly (after helping force me to shear off the old ties a few months
earlier).

So, what the hell. This WV/retail writer (that's a joke, but I didn't know it
until too late) adventure cost me enough so retirement is out of the question
for now, but at least I've still got a marketable skill, though it's difficult
to implement some parts of it in a garage workshop with a single 115 volt
circuit.

Come spring, go house, get my tail back to VA and a full-sized shop and really
wind things up. Unless someone wants to buy a small (1550 square feet) house on
a tiny lot in a dying town right NOW!


Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:29:56 +0000 (UTC), Henry E Schaffer wrote:

In article ,
Bay Area Dave wrote:
I'd rather have a good tool that worry about somebody's job. ...

This seems to translate to, "I've got mine."

You can vote with your dollars, but I'll vote for the specific tool for
the task, regardless of what country it was made in. ...

It should be possible to have both - if people cared to buy high
quality tools made in the USA, then they would be available. I'll pay
more, and understand that some of that will come back to me.

The US has to forget "pile 'em high / sell 'em cheap" as a basis for
it's economy. With the demands in living standards that Americans
expect, you will be beaten into a bloody pulp by the developing
world if the US continues to try and pursue it.

You have to get into niche markets.

For instance in the UK we used to have large British owned car
manufacturers producing 100,000s of crappy cars every year. Now we
have a thriving industry supplying racing cars and engines for Indy,
F1 etc. All the large scale car manufacturing is Japanese.

The US has to get over the fact that it is going to lose it's
large-scale manufacturing base. Fixing the figures by driving your
economy through defense spending isn't going to work for
ever.....people will eventually get ****ed off at being in a constant
state of war/state of fear and wont wear it. There are reports here
that more Americans are beginning to think that the war in Iraq was
not a very good idea and it can only be a matter of time before they
start questioning harder the given motives for it.

Imposing tarrifs on foreign imports can also only be a stop-gap
measure, so expect a farming crisis in your country in the not too
distant future.

The US economy growing at 7% a year, the Japanese and most European
economies pretty much stagnant? That's an imbalance that doesn't make
sense and can't go on forever whatever St. Alan Greenspan thinks.

To get back OT. Lie Nielsen is showing the way: small scale and value
added. Veritas also - very good customer service if the comments on
this group are anything to go by and good kit aswell.

--

Frank


The machine stops - EM Forster

Charlie Self wrote:

Unfortunately, they seem to have everything but. What I'm talking about is
the Microsoft Natural keyboard, with the two splits in the keys that let
your wrists arch more naturally.

Helps reduce my carpal tunnel symptoms...and I've been using it so long,
it's a PITA to use a straight keyboard now.

What, yours is busted? I have a knockoff that's similar except they put the
6 on the wrong side of the split, and the backslash is in a stupid place.
Other than the minor inconvenience, it's a pretty solid keyboard. I have
it on my son's computer, but he never uses it. I'd be happy to send it
your way if you need it. Dad gave it to me a long time ago, and I've been
hanging onto it mostly as a spare in case my own Natural keyboard kicks the
bucket. Thing is so old that most of the letters are worn off.

I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
alone.

Yup. Made in USA.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:51:35 -0800, "JackD" wrote:

Guess the bottom has fallen out of the trebuchet market...

There never was a trebuchet market. Anyone fool enough to want one
also wants to build their own.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Mark Jerde wrote:

single example of -- like broken axles. I bought my first home/business
computer in 1983. From the mid 1980's to the .dot com crash I fixed a lot
of software broken axles. The basic engineering has improved in both

That's a really good analogy.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Andy Dingley wrote:

It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.

I hear you guys (by way of the BBC World Service) frequently talking about
the glory days of the Britsh Empire with a combination of nostalgia and the
pragmatic realization that those days are forever relegated to the pages of
history.

I'm feeling the same about the US, so it's funny you should put my feeling
into words so succinctly. We're losing the limelight, and the empire is
collapsing. I don't know if it will be China's century, or the EU's, but I
fear it won't be America's.

I'm thinking what will make or break us will be the space race to Mars.
Whoever gets there first gets the stage, and at this point it's likely that
the first human language spoken from the surface of the red planet will not
be English.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Mark Jerde wrote:

I have yet to realize the way in which I can add sufficient value to the
human race to derive the income I wish to receive, but believe me, I'm
working on it. You can't sit around and wish for things to be as they
used to be!

All of this makes me feel a little better that I didn't go into CS, I must
admit. Though I guess it would be nice to have some of that money in the
bank. Most of my friends went on to earn huge bucks, but they're probably
all unemployed now, and all of them had to flit off to the four corners of
America to find those jobs.

Me, I stayed right here. Majored in foreign languages, which has never
earned me a penny, and I drive a truck to provide my societal value and pay
for my house. The up side is that I'm no worse off for the big crash, but
the down side is that my body's beat all to hell at 31, and I feel very
old. My knees and wrists are fighting to see which one is going to put me
out of work first. I may end up like the rest of you not long off once
something finally blows out.

Then I guess I'll have to go back to Plan B and take up being an internet
pornographer. All I need is a digital camcorder and a buncha gorgeous
20-year-old college chicks. They'll have to be on top, because of my
knees. SWMBO can hold the camera. This should go over real well once I
tell her my plan. After she cuts my penis off, I can go on disability.
LOL!

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

t isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in
deep
doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks.
And
we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what
came
to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents
and
grandparents did it. I don't think we can.


Charlie Self

Why in the world would you think that a major war could possibly last long
enough today for anyone's production capacity to much enter into the equation?
Who are we going to fight with Tanks and major firepower that are big enough to
A) keep us from getting resupplied B) cause us to use up our existing weaponry
and C) wouldn't rather quickly escalate into a major mushroom event? A major
war that would be a slow starter like WWII that would allow time for us to
build lots of weapons like we did in WWII is not the least likely. Oceans
aren't going to protect us like they did then, enemys big enough to keep us
away from existing suppliers aren't going to be incapable of bringing the war
to us like in WWII. I don't think war preparedness is a valid argument against
free trade - although there are many valid arguments against it ( just as there
are many valid arguments for it).

Dave Hall

Put on your flameproof underwear. But as a tool and diemaker who has
seen my trade decimated in the last few years, I wholeheartedly agree
with you. That's why I bought a Unisaw that was made here. It seems like
the X5 series is Taiwanese, but the limited edition (phasing out) was
made here. I too would also rather pay a little more to keep some of
the manufacturing in the States.

Brian Elfert wrote:

Is any woodworking maachinery for the hobbyist still made in the USA?

I'm looking for a 14" bandsaw. Delta makes them in the USA, but the
current models don't have a great reputation. Powermatic is making a real
nice 14" bandsaw, but in Taiwan. I would rather see jobs stay in the USA
and pay a bit more for my tools.

Many other types of stationary tools simply aren't made in the USA unless
you want to buy high end models for thousands of dollars.

I was just at Home Depot a few days ago buying tools in the hand tool
promotion. I only bought stuff made in the USA. I may have paid a bit
more, but someone might have a job for another day now. I was going to
buying a socket set, but Husky tools are all made in Taiwan now so those
stayed on the shelf.

Brian Elfert

I too have been to China to visit manufacturing facilities. The workers
I have talked to are earning 30 cents an hour. Even if our minimum wage
was only $3.00 an hour, they would still be earning only %10 of an
American wage earner of minimum wage. So I don't know if the minimum
wage is the ONLY reason. Maybe the lack of an OSHA counterpart, and
healthcare are contributing.

SteveC1280 wrote:

Hi Charlie,

I'm a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without going
into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in the
USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
Americans used to do. More and more companies are moving jobs to China because
of our minimum wage, out-of-control health care costs, etc. What really scares
me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
China and now India.




Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.

Did you hear about the senator who carries a Green Beret that is made in
China? Pretty damn pitiful..... Look at American flags to see where
they are made. I have seen some MIC (made in China).

Charlie Self wrote:

stevec writes:


'm a long time reader, occasional contributor to the WREC. I submit that you
are wrong and I am right about the minimum wage jobs going to China. I am
going back to China this Sunday for the second time in a month. Without
going
into great detail, I visit production factories in China that used to be in
the
USA. 90% of the people who work there are doing the manual labor that
Americans used to do.


But those are not minimum wage jobs in the U.S. My guess is they're also not
minimum wage jobs in China, but maximum wage is so much lower that it's like
paying half the minimum here.

I really don't see how you can equate problems with minimum wage with people
who make two and three times minimum wage.


What really scares
me is the new trend to move high-end jobs, like engineering and software to
China and now India.


It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep
doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And
we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came
to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and
grandparents did it. I don't think we can.


Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:43:21 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
wrote:

Once upon a time I was a super-expert (IMHO g) on xBASE, especially on
combination DOS / UNIX development and implementation. I was the lead on
one project that literally took xBASE to its design limits in the call
stack. I architected and implemented a data-dictionary based directory
crawler that would update database versions overnight. (Extremely necessary
when developing systems whilst data entry people were typing in data. g)

Then Microsoft released MS Access 1.0 for $99.00. Literally overnight, I
saw all my hard-won
SET EXCLUSIVE ON
skills had gone the way of the horse and buggy.

Adapt or die.

Ha, another fellow victim. I was the resident Clipper programmer at a
shop in Atlanta. Wrote xBase Clipper code for a service managment
application that was multi-user/workstation with nested gets (!) and
tons of assembly UDFs. Thousands of hours of work reduced to
worthlessness in less than a year. The only advantage at this point
is that it will run on all those old 386s lining the landfills. :-|

Greg

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:21:24 -0000, Rich Andrews
wrote:

The last I checked, Stanley brand "slip joint pliers" were made offshore.
The Channellock brand was still made here in the States.

I bought a Stanley FatMAX tape rule a couple of days ago and when I
got it home, noticed the tiny letters "Made in Indonesia" stamped on
the back. Shoulda bought a Lufkin.

Jeeeesss....

Greg

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:48:42 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know
wrote:

You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.

The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
a reasonable price.

Ahhh, but they speak with the language of CHEAP. No matter that the
product falls apart in 6 months.

I DO, however, like to keep my neighbors employed and their homes off
the courthouse steps.

The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.

Hmmm, I have 3 Fords. But I stay away from mechanics and do the work
myself. And yes, their 4R70W transmission had a number of problems.
I bought a T-Bird cheap because 3 previous techs failed to properly
repair this car. That is 3 trannys in 80,000 miles!
I overhauled it myself, upgraded the problem points - so far, no
problems. It even chirps second when I get on it... ;-)

The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
and 12 years with no significant problems.

I have a '79 Toyota Supra with 360,000 miles and a Peugeot with
510,000 miles. But try finding parts... ;-)

You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?

Depends on whether you want to circulate your money back into this
economy or build yet another foreign world empire.

Oops... too late...

Greg

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:41 -0500, "RKON"
wrote:

I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America. So
it isn't the American worker.

It's the American bean counters and Wall Street investors wanting to
make a quick profit - something for nothing.

The bubble will burst.

Greg

On 10 Nov 2003 21:35:06 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

It isn't the loss of the high end hotshots that is the problem. It's the guys
and gals who build the machinery, in factories owned by Americans, kept on
American soil that we're losing, and they're the important ones. We're in deep
doodoo as our dearly beloved prez says if we are attacked by anyone who meets
with China's approval these days. If we can't manufacture tanks, guns, bombs
and bullets here, we're screwed, regardless of what the top echelon thinks. And
we're approaching that stage at a rapid pace. It was our manufacturing
capacity, the awakening of a sleeping giant, that won World War II. If we
couldn't have supplied our soliders and most of those of the rest of what came
to be known as the free world, we lost. We did it. Or, rather, our parents and
grandparents did it. I don't think we can.

Exactly.

The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.

We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
that rot into the ground in 15 years.

Greg

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:30:47 -0800, "JackD" wrote:

It's China's century Charlie, get used to it. America has had its
day, just like England had hers in the century before.

So what are YOU going to do about it?
Really, I'm curious about what individuals are going to do in the face of
this over the next 10-50 years.

Starve? War with neighbors for food and shelter? Live in that new
mini-storage warehouse at 90% of their monthly income?

Greg

On 10 Nov 2003 21:26:33 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

Greed is not a component, nor is a desire to save money on important
components. I'd GLADLY pay the same for another keyboard like this one. Even a
bit more. Forget it. They no longer exist and probably haven't for several
years.

Same here...
Don't laugh - I am using a genuine Heath/Zenith keyboard with real
American switches made in the 80s for the US Government military.

I have to modify the BIOS in every new system I build, 'cause it won't
work with each progression in speed - even though it 'should'.

You can't BUY that quality anymore. You have the choice of really
bad, or mediocre - whether made here or overseas.

Greg

Dr. Know wrote:

The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.

We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
that rot into the ground in 15 years.

Meanwhile, the Japanese are turning out nice little hybrids that get 50
MPG. I guess Bush thinks it's OK to churn out 10 MPG SUVs because
somebody's gotta buy all that Iraqi oil which Halliburton and Bechtel
are getting rich on. And once he finishes dismanteling what's left of
the EPA, Detroit won't have to worry about those pesky fleet mileage
goals anymore, right?

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:56:02 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

I have only one bench grinder in my shop, mostly for sharpening lawn
mower blades. It's a 3/4HP, costs $28, and made in China. Really
cheap, been running for years, and useful. I doubt the USA could make
them that cheap.

Probably not. Your neighbors want to make enough to live.
The US Gov. won't allow US MFGs to dump PCBs and motor varnishes into
the river, require safety measure in the plant, and regulate hours and
pay rates.

Mexico and China don't care. They just dump the dead workers bodies
into the Rio Grand along with the medical waste, trash, and dead
animals.

They also, and most importantly, don't have heards of avaricious
lawyers.

Greg

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:19:43 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

Dr. Know wrote:

The Japanese have long contended that we should become an agricultural
entity, and do what we do best - consume mass quantities of the
world's resources in exchange for all of our wealth.

We are well on our way with 10mpg SUVs and poorly built $250,000 homes
that rot into the ground in 15 years.

Meanwhile, the Japanese are turning out nice little hybrids that get 50
MPG. I guess Bush thinks it's OK to churn out 10 MPG SUVs because
somebody's gotta buy all that Iraqi oil which Halliburton and Bechtel
are getting rich on. And once he finishes dismanteling what's left of
the EPA, Detroit won't have to worry about those pesky fleet mileage
goals anymore, right?

Greed rules.
Those that HAVE, want MORE.
Those that don't HAVE, want to present the illusion that they do, lest
they be judged unfit.
Those that don't HAVE, never will, unless extremely lucky - hard work
and dedication just won't do it anymore.

rant on
Bush is a moron - a greed-monger for the HAVES. For those who are
still deluded by whatever 'charm' he exudes, hindsight will reveal him
for what he is - a fool, brandishing the flag as the weapon
instrumental in undermining the security of the nation and it's
economy before masses of short-sighted but adoring sheep.
rant off

JMHO,
Greg

Could it have anything to do with the quality of the paper? I for one get
tired of having to read 2-3 paragraphs of the reporters PC-BS before they
tell me what happened. News stories are / were suppose to be just that, an
unbiased view of an event that took place. There is a place for editorials
but not in EVERY story. I am at the point now where I skim down the article
until I find the NEWS.

Pops

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message news:3fafe433$0$75901
I work for a newspaper. Unless everything goes to the web, we'll still
be
around. So many people like to read real paper that newspapers will be
around for some time yet.

Retailers still need to advertise no matter where they get the good, so
my
job is reasonably secure.

Brian Elfert

Still be around, but less of you. Newspaper circulation has been in
decline
for some years now. People would rather watch the news on TV or listen on
the radio during their commute. I can think of a dozen major cities that
have lost at least one of their papers in the past 10 or 15 years.
Ed

Absolutely not the American Factory Worker but maybe the engineers who
design stuff to planned obsolescence.

You don't spec it to last, it won't last no matter who or where it is built.


"RKON" wrote in message
news:71Vrb.3113$vJ3.312@okepread05...
I have to agree with you on the American cars for the most part. But what
gets me is that many Toyota, Honda's and Nissans are now made in America.
So
it isn't the American worker.

Rich
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know
wrote:

You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.

The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
a reasonable price.

The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.

The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
and 12 years with no significant problems.

You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?

Brian Henderson wrote in
:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:13:01 -0500, Dr. Know
wrote:

You are one in a million. If more people spoke with their
pocketbooks, perhaps we wouldn't have unemployment rates that we do.

The problem is, people DO speak with their pocketbooks. Personally, I
don't care where it's built, so long as it's quality construction for
a reasonable price.

The same goes for cars. The last two Fords I've owned have been
complete crap. The latest one has been recalled by the factory twice,
has had the transmission fail within the first year and it STILL
doesn't work right, it's been nothing but a nightmare.

The Toyota that my wife had when we got married lasted over 300k miles
and 12 years with no significant problems.

You think I'm going to buy American with that kind of track record?

I have had nothing but German iron sitting in my driveway for the last 15
years. Ford's rate last in my book as well.

r


--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.