mrdancer wrote:

Our farm was five
miles from the highway, subject to South Dakota winters.

East or west river? ;-) My brother & family are south of Reva, 6 miles from
their next-door neighbor.

-- Mark

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:24:38 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:12:30 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:
Maybe instead of complaining about how little they get paid there, we
should be more worried about why it costs so much to live here?

We just spent 87 billion dollars of our tax dollars on nothing.

We do that constantly, thanks to the asshole in the oval office.

Mark wrote in message ...
Mark & Juanita wrote:


nice attempt at condescension.


Your the exception.

Maybe it's because you live in the sticks that you don't get to see how
many SUVs are sold to people who would think your unimproved road an
extreme off road experience.

I think the problem is that, as more and more people purchase utility
vehicles expecting them to drive like cars, the manufacturers will
sacrifice real utility features in lieu of making them drive more
car-like and we'll end up with grossly over-sized station wagons or El
Caminos. The other gripe is that many of these dip-****s are
overwhelmed by the vehicle's size, as demonstrated by their inability
to park or carry out a U-turn. If somebody has trouble parking a
Camry, why the heck are they buying an Excursion?

Cheers,
Mike

Mike wrote:
The other gripe is that many of these dip-****s are
overwhelmed by the vehicle's size, as demonstrated by their inability
to park or carry out a U-turn. If somebody has trouble parking a
Camry, why the heck are they buying an Excursion?



To push Camrys out of the way.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

In article ,
says...
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
s.com...
In article ,
says...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:37:55 GMT, Mark
wrote:

Seems she thought she was in something car like she was driving a car.
Wound up on her top twice.


This is what caused some manufacturers to lower, widen, and install
independent suspension on SUV's ("New" Explorer, Trail Blazer,
etc...), ruining the semi-able off-road performance they actually had.
G

The funny thing is, AWD minivans have been around for a long time,
which combines great load space with go in bad weather traction.
Unfortunately, they just aren't stylish enough at the soccer field.


nice attempt at condescension. Funny thing is AWD minivans aren't
built on a truck body. I live off of an unimproved road -- it gets
graded twice a year whether it needs it or not. When we looked to
replace our Ford Explorer, we considered a minivan, but after having
driven a minivan owned by a friend, we determined that there was no way
such a vehicle would hold up for the long haul on our roads. On the
other hand, since SUV's are built on a truck chassis, they are more
likely to provide long-term service in this kind of environment.

It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
choose to drive.

Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
everyone?

yeah, right.


Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to get
us around to everything in a station wagon.

Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
required more than an econobox.

On 14-Nov-2003, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
required more than an econobox.

Interesting hypothesis. Problem is that vans used to be a fad and have
always been outside the CAFE standards that you cite. They could have
bought vans instead of SUVs or station wagons.

The real reason is that SUVs are a fad. Nothing more, nothing less.
People buy them, so they make them. Utility, practicality, safety
etc have nothing to do with it. Just like pet rocks, frisbees,
hula-hoops etc. They will go away when the next fad kicks in. Only
those who need them will continue to buy them.

Mike

Mike Daly responds:

Funny thing is, the same people who are trying to kill SUV's are
responsible for the rise of the SUV and the death of the station wagon.
Station wagons died because the car mfg's couldn't meet average fleet
mileage standards if they kept station wagons in their product
offerings. However, people still had things they needed to haul that
required more than an econobox.

Interesting hypothesis. Problem is that vans used to be a fad and have
always been outside the CAFE standards that you cite. They could have
bought vans instead of SUVs or station wagons.

And minivans were always a perfect replacement for station wagons with more
space, more easily rearranged.

I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't be
hauled as easily in a minivan: I'm sure there's something, but I jsut can't
think of what it might be offhand.

The real reason is that SUVs are a fad. Nothing more, nothing less.
People buy them, so they make them. Utility, practicality, safety
etc have nothing to do with it. Just like pet rocks, frisbees,
hula-hoops etc. They will go away when the next fad kicks in. Only
those who need them will continue to buy them.

Yeah, well...almost everyone I know with a SUV bought it because it's "cool,"
which is probably one of the stupidest reasons (and one we all fall for) to buy
anything other than an air conditioner.

Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:21:56 GMT, Mark & Juanita
wrote:



It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
choose to drive.


You have exactly the right vehicle. I'm not talking about you.

My point was that the "soccer mom" market is driving the SUV designers
to make them more and more car-like. Oddly enough, this makes the
SUV less usable to people like you, who WANT the truck features. I
also own an SUV that goes off-road, as well as an AWD car that stays
on the road.

The soccer mom buys an SUV to appear outdoorsy, rugged, non-soccer
momish. Why else would someone install "appearance only" bash guards
all over the vehicle. The bash guards are right up there with the
fake roll bars on the pickups of the 70's and 80's. It's all about
apperances to them. Obviously, that's not you.

Barry

Mark & Juanita writes:


[...]


It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
choose to drive.

It's because the typical SUV convez the message (especially if
equipped with "reinforcement bars" at the front): "I dont't care what
happens to the people that i crash my extra heavy car into, as long as
my laquer doesn't get scratched"
Especially if the SUV's aggessive apearance is heightened by black
paint or military background (like a hummer or jeep) it makes people
want to fire a bozooka at it.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

"Brush Guards" have saved my life, and the lives of a couple of my
co-workers by taking the impact of a deer, and, as the upper bar projects
outward beyond the lower, pushing the corpse underneath the ambulance rather
than allowing it to join me in the seat. I have also entered vehicles
where the former operator and the unwanted passenger were virtually
indistinguishable bloody parts.

Oh yes - one was a Volkswagen.

"Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message
...

It's because the typical SUV convez the message (especially if
equipped with "reinforcement bars" at the front): "I dont't care what
happens to the people that i crash my extra heavy car into, as long as
my laquer doesn't get scratched"
Especially if the SUV's aggessive apearance is heightened by black
paint or military background (like a hummer or jeep) it makes people
want to fire a bozooka at it.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Charlie Self wrote:


I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't be
hauled as easily in a minivan: I'm sure there's something, but I jsut can't
think of what it might be offhand.


Ass. My first car was a Ford Custom wagon with a 427, that bad boy would
fly.


I think it has less to do with what a vehicle will carry and more what
the driver/ owner is willing to carry.


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:28:37 +0000, mrdancer wrote:


Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
everyone?

Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to get
us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles from
the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems like
most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets without an
SUV.

SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ

Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?

-Doug

Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able
to get
us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles
from
the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems
like
most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets
without an
SUV.

SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ

Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?

-Doug

3 in the front, 3 in the middle, 3 in the back and 4 to push it through
the snow.

"A Dog Named Stain" wrote in message
. ..

Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were
able
to get
us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five
miles
from
the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it
seems
like
most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets
without an
SUV.

SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ

Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?

-Doug

3 in the front, 3 in the middle, 3 in the back and 4 to push it
through
the snow.

As you can tell, math's not my strong suit.

Mark & Juanita wrote:

It amazes me the vehemence some people have over what other people
choose to drive.

Personally, I can't stand them because most people who drive them are
grossly unqualified to handle a vehicle that large and unwieldy. They also
tend to bring out the worst in people, and I see people taking foolish,
dangerous chances all the time.

In my opinion, formulated by years of driving thousands of miles every week,
SUVs are in a class by themselves in terms of the danger they present to
themselves, to other SUVs, and to everyone else on the road. They're
followed closely by those little asshole generation X hotrods, and then by
crotch rockets. Ironically, some of the very safest, most conservative and
courteous drivers on the road are piloting Corvettes and Vipers.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
...
mrdancer wrote:

Our farm was five
miles from the highway, subject to South Dakota winters.

East or west river? ;-) My brother & family are south of Reva, 6 miles
from
their next-door neighbor.

West River. Gregory County - pheasant capital of the world. ;-)

Here's a funny true story. When I was going to college at SDSU, I had a
classmate from Minnesota. One day he asked me where the town of West River
was. I said 'huh?'. He said that a lot of people he has asked where they
are from, reply 'West River'. He'd spent all night looking at a map of
South Dakota trying to find the town of 'West River'!

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
s.com...
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:28:37 +0000, mrdancer wrote:


Maybe because some vehicles raise insurance rates and fuel prices for
everyone?

Growing up with 13 siblings, I'm amazed at how my parents were able to
get
us around to everything in a station wagon. Our farm was five miles
from
the highway, subject to South Dakota winters. These days, it seems like
most folks can't get their two kids across town on paved streets without
an
SUV.

SUV = Slow Unwieldy Vehicle :þ

Howdja get 16 people safely in a station wagon?

Well, since there was 23 years span among us 14 kids, there usually wasn't
more than a half dozen of us that needed to be anywhere off the farm at one
time.

Besides, we didn't worry about safety (we grew up on a farm, one of the most
dangerous occupations in the world). We didn't really know or care what
seatbelts were. In 1978 my Dad got a 'town' truck that we could drive into
town. He put a topper on it and hauled a bunch of us in the back of that
when we went to town.

Living in muddy hilly river country, we got our first 4wd truck in 1984,
although we never had much problem getting around in the snow with 2wd.
That's kinda why I laugh at what so many people 'think' they need. They too
often confuse want with need.

Btw, I wear my seatbelt religiously these days. I don't even think about it
when I put it on - it's pure habit. I just feel naked without it.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:41:05 -0500, "George"
wrote:

"Brush Guards" have saved my life, and the lives of a couple of my
co-workers by taking the impact of a deer, and, as the upper bar projects
outward beyond the lower, pushing the corpse underneath the ambulance rather
than allowing it to join me in the seat.

Of course, your ambulance has REAL brush guards not the non-protective
bling-bling pop riveted to a typical SUV.

My Jeep has REAL push bars and nerf bars. They attach to the frame
and do their job very well.

Barry

Mark wrote:

I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't
be hauled as easily in a minivan:

Ass.

Yes, quite. The thing they seem to have in common is that they have
absolutely no ass whatsoever. The damn things just won't pull a hill at
all. I pass them all the time going up mountains in a tractor-trailer.

I guess part of the problem is that people don't know how to drive them. I
can get up hills with Dad's anemic minivan a lot better than most because I
know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan responds:


I have trouble imagining what can be hauled in a station wagon that can't
be hauled as easily in a minivan:

Ass.

Yes, quite. The thing they seem to have in common is that they have
absolutely no ass whatsoever. The damn things just won't pull a hill at
all. I pass them all the time going up mountains in a tractor-trailer.

I guess part of the problem is that people don't know how to drive them. I
can get up hills with Dad's anemic minivan a lot better than most because I
know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.


On some. On others, like my SIL's Chrysler with a peppy V6, it just blows up
the local mountains (around your area, though admittedly he does spend more
time running towards Charlottesville) even with a load of kids and their junk.
As with most other vehicles, there are engine options, as there were with
station wagons.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

Ever so often I like to mull this one over. Not that I
particularly care (I don't really (OK I do but I'm jaded))
but it gives me something to do between the trips to the
drive-up windows. Anyway, it certainly appears that maybe
we don't have a whole lot of say anymore. Like for
instance,

Let's say I take my hard earned dollars ('Murican money
David) and we take it to Jet/Powermatic/Wilton
(JetConGlomCo) or Grizzly and we give it/them to the nice
man there. He in turn begins a process of giving the
dollars to his company and eventually they (the company)
splits off a couple few dollars here to stay in 'Murica
(warehouse/office admin/other such peoples based on 'Murican
soil) , some goes to the corporate side of things (based
where ever in the world, I think its a mobile home in
Nebraska) and the rest goes to the country of origin where
raw materials are paid for, 'lektricuty is paid for and the
children who manufacture the 'chinery get their daily bread.

Seems like a sad trek that the dollars take, eh? Then I got
to thinking, what of the dollars we spend directly to a
'Murican company. Well, they keep a larger percentage here
as one might expect but most 'Murican companies reside in a
GlowBall market and, well, some of those good, hard earned
dollars get mixed in with the corporate spit and, well,
guess what? Uh-huh, you got it Chester. They've gone and
wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
you/we ask for? Well, let's see. You've given the nice man
the money and what does he do with it? Yep, he goes to the
Pigg-a-la Wigg-a-lee and he buys Pop Tarts and Tang (Made In
'Murica) for the family breakfast table. On the way home he
notices he needs gasoline for the auto-mobile so he stops to
top off the tank. We all know that money stays here, I
mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
of our lifetimes. While gassing up he notices he needs new
tennis shoes so its off to Kohls (they have the best tennis
shoe prices) where he drops $40ish on new shoes. But, but,
but, but, doesn't that money go off shore? Why yes it does
but only a very small percentage. $5 goes to the country of
origin to pay for raw materials and manufacture (to pay the
children who make our shoes/clothes). $5 goes to the
corporate entity who have masterminded this ekonomik
scenario. The rest of the money goes to good and tall
'Murican athletes who then in turn use it to stimulate the
national ekonomy buy buying Escalades and tennis bracelets.

A'yup, I wish I had a lead on some used machinery right
about now so I could contribute to this little machine.

UA100, who keeps his own stimulus package in his pants...

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message


sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
you/we ask for?

Good idea in theory. Let's say you spark a good idea and all of us stop
buying new today. Only used from the local papers so we keep the money in
our community.

Most likely, the local Woodworkers Warehouse stores will close. As will the
Woodcraft chain. They people at the Grizzly warehouse will be collecting
unemployment, standing in line with the guys from Jet, Delta, and a half
dozen importers.

With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.

Ed

Unisaw A100 wrote in
:

....

wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do?

Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
or not) results in ****tier, more expensive goods for all of us.

Manny Davis responds:

wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do?

Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
or not) results in ****tier, more expensive goods for all of us.

Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago, were B&D in
Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near Baltimore, too. Checking
personnel there, I saw probably 40% were colors other than white. Checking
company ownership, I'd have to guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese
conglomerate, while B&D is owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY be
"white" (neither you nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are
particolored. Be durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a multinational,
so I'd guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.

Let's not add excess bull**** to the baggage this problem already carries,
especially in response to a humorous question.

Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a day,
or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others in
their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers, especially
after tax.

There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade or
2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful about
jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days is
being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient" producers
are making.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
alone.

Yup. Made in USA.

funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Manny Davis responds:

wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do?

Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
or not) results in ****tier, more expensive goods for all of us.

Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago, were
B&D in
Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near Baltimore, too. Checking
personnel there, I saw probably 40% were colors other than white. Checking
company ownership, I'd have to guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese
conglomerate, while B&D is owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY
be
"white" (neither you nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are
particolored. Be durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a
multinational,
so I'd guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.

Let's not add excess bull**** to the baggage this problem already carries,
especially in response to a humorous question.

Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a
day,
or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others
in
their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers,
especially
after tax.

There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade
or
2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful
about
jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days
is
being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient"
producers
are making.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less
we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson


It's not quite that simple. A good many of the jobs are not "moving",
they're disappearing. Robotics is the main reason for this. I don't think
anyone has quite figured out what to do about the looming underemployment
problem. (I just heard an advertisiment for a Bernelli (sp?) sewing
machine that has a full Microsoft-driven, Intell microprocessor installed in
a HOME machine. Install enough micro-power and I might even be able to sew
a new shop apron. Stop laughing. It could happen!)

But there is another problem that's just now beginning to appear on the
horzion. One of the factors involved with the movement of raw manufacturing
into foreign environments, is the extremely cheap transportation costs of
moving the completed product(s) back into local markets. Fossil fuels are
NOT going to get any cheaper, and if you listen to some, the era of
(relatively) cheap energy is drawing to a close for everyone. (I don't
quite believe it myself, but some relatively rational people are predicting
that the peak oil production has already been reached and *no matter what*,
oil production world wide, will very gradually begin to decline.

Right now, labor costs are a prime consideration on manufacturing location.
However, if, as I suspect, we begin to see a increase in fuel costs, the
pressure to re-locate manufacturing much closer to target markets, is going
to become increasingly more of the mix. (None of this will happen
overnight, to be sure.) I very much look for a return to 19th Century
economics where it might be feasible, even desirable to to centralize around
specific transporation (railroads), or maybe a nuclear driven power grid,
but the very idea of loading a gigantic container transport, and then using
millions of gallons of diseal fuel to move relatively low value commodities
across the Pacific just, will become a thing of the past.

The increased energy costs alone are going to drive up the manufacture of
most tools. Right now, I can buy a quite acceptable Grizzley (Chinese)
cabinet saw for $1000. I assume most of those $1800 Powermatics are made
overseas, but let's assume that they're made in New Britain, Connectiucut.
It doesn't take much of a jump in trans-Pacific transportation costs for
that Powermatic, to become much more attractive. ESPECIALLY if Powermatic
would decentralize it's operations and begin manufacturing those Powermatics
in three, (or more!) smaller, but still efficient manufacturing centers
located around the US.

To be only somewhat facetious, this opera isn't over and the fat lady hasn't
even appeared on stage yet.

James....

Charlie Self wrote:

know when to punch it. Even so, it'll be doing way below the speed limit
by the top. The power to weight ratio just sucks royally.

On some. On others, like my SIL's Chrysler with a peppy V6, it just blows
up the local mountains (around your area, though admittedly he does spend
more time running towards Charlottesville) even with a load of kids and
their junk. As with most other vehicles, there are engine options, as
there were with station wagons.

Yeah, but Dad's anemic, wheezy POS has a V6 too. When he bought the thing,
he looked into some kind of aftermarket ignition kit to make it zippier,
but we couldn't find five cubic inches of room under the hood anywhere to
install it.

I'm probably going to wind up with a minivan some day myself. Pretty
practical for a family man, I must say. Haul your kids and dogs, haul your
wood. I borrow Dad's van a lot. (I also spend long hours doing graphics
for his business for free, so don't cry for my poor Daddy...)

I'm not going to get one until I reach a point in life where I can pay
mechanics to do *all* the maintenance though. At only 30-something, I'm
still too damn old to be contorting myself into the hideous positions
demanded of mechanics working on those damn things.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.



Hate to tell you but buying beer and scrapping the cans outpaced many
401k's.





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

The solution seems to have already been decided upon: tax the crap out of
property owners.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"George" wrote in message

Then there's the other big problem, that we can't support a generous
government on income taxes from 8 buck jobs....

We're just, I believe, beginning to sort out the two-earner household.
That, I think has as much to do with this problem of labor as anything else.
When the second wage-earner trend began, there was a shortage of people,
therefore a higher rate of pay. As we get more and more (don't say they
"have" to work, that's far from universal, so far), we have an ample supply,
and decreased wages.

Trouble is, factor "x" is playing too - loss of the two-adult household.
Two adults in a household at 8 equals more or less one at fifteen in dough,
but certainly doesn't support two separate domiciles.

Then there's the other big problem, that we can't support a generous
government on income taxes from 8 buck jobs....

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
In response to some knee-jerk bigot.


Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking at
factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5 bucks a
day,
or less, with which those laborers live better than almost all the others
in
their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't buy most hamburgers,
especially
after tax.

There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next decade
or
2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be very joyful
about
jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is replaced these days
is
being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job. Eventually that will mean that
someone else is going to buy the products these emerging "efficient"
producers
are making.

Unisaw A100 wrote:

...........
sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used".



If I can avoid buying new I will.

I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease
of value by simple virtue of taking possession.


I look about the house and see a substantial amount is second hand.
Could I buy a new 250 watt RMS stereo for $25? Wife seems to think the
cabinet itself was worth the money. So what if I have to walk across the
room to turn it on.

Tools? Where would I begin? Three table saws and a 4" joiner for under
$300 total. One TS is a Craftsman, the rest are Rockwell's. Took a
little cleaning, even paying myself $20 an hour I made out like a
bandit. Dedicated Dado table? Is that a big thing? Funny , I was going
to set one up for this.

Another thing is, allot of this stuff can't be bought anymore. With the
TS/ Joiner I got a tendoner. Big solid rigid cast iron thing. Angle
can't be adjusted but that's why the saw blade tilts.

But there are things I won't buy used. My air compressor for instance. I
don't trust people to blow down their tanks. A ruptured tank is a bit
more excitement than I need. I have a Fluke 83, Damned if I'll trust my
life to a used meter. Have I bought used meters? Yes, but the Fluke is
the one I use when I have to know for sure.

(Wife's dropping hints about the time, Wife is now SWMBO).

Buy Used! Buy Often! Get more bang for the buck! Put the money in
someone's pocket who's going to buy new and take the hit!


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

otforme (Charlie Self) wrote in
:

Manny Davis responds:

wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do?

Understand that buying "American" is no different than buying
"white", and realize that supporting inefficient producers (American
or not) results in ****tier, more expensive goods for all of us.

Really? Damn. Last real production lines I saw, some few years ago,
were B&D in Maryland and Makita in SC. Lessee. Also GAF near
Baltimore, too. Checking personnel there, I saw probably 40% were
colors other than white.

You misunderstood or I didn't make myself clear (probably the latter).

The mindset that some people have had in the past (do business with only
white people) is no different, in principle, than the current, "do
business only with Americans".

Checking company ownership, I'd have to
guess, but Makita is part of a Japanese conglomerate, while B&D is
owned worldwide, so while U.S. management MAY be "white" (neither you
nor I know for sure, though), lots of the owners are particolored. Be
durned if I know who owns GAF now, but it is a multinational, so I'd
guess ownership is spread widely over various nations and colors.

Let's not add excess bull**** to the baggage this problem already
carries, especially in response to a humorous question.

Inefficient production is only a part of the equation. We're looking
at factories that can pay their laborers something on the order of 5
bucks a day, or less, with which those laborers live better than
almost all the others in their block(s). In the U.S., five bucks won't
buy most hamburgers, especially after tax.

It doesn't matter what they're willing to work for. Suppose they were
willing to work for free. Would Americans be worse off or better off if
foreign countries shipped goods over here for free? (forgetting other
production costs for the moment)

The people working in those factories are there because that is probably
their best option at the moment. Five bucks a day may mean the difference
between eating and not eating.

There's a leveling taking place, and my guess is that over the next
decade or 2, the U.S. and its counterpart nations are not going to be
very joyful about jobs. Almost every 15 or 20 buck an hour job that is
replaced these days is being replaced with a 6-7 buck an hour job.
Eventually that will mean that someone else is going to buy the
products these emerging "efficient" producers are making.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Good idea in theory. Let's say you spark a good idea and all of us stop
buying new today. Only used from the local papers so we keep the money in
our community.

I didn't imply that we "all" not buy new. Just those who
have a hankering for keeping their dollars in 'Murica.
Judging by what gets discussed here I don't quite have
visions of too many people with certain bumper stickers
plastered on their (insert truck name here).

Most likely, the local Woodworkers Warehouse stores will close. As will the
Woodcraft chain. They people at the Grizzly warehouse will be collecting
unemployment, standing in line with the guys from Jet, Delta, and a half
dozen importers.

I think you'd be surprised. The scenario you lay out would
involve a lot of people unable to adapt and as hooman beans
we do have that certain God given thinking capacity allotted
to survival. I mean, just ''cause we forgot how to hunt
down and kill woolly mammoths with our bare hands doesn't
mean we'll allow ourselves to go extinct.

Besides, from what I've gleaned from all the goings on,
places like Woodcraft would drop machinery in a heart beat,
if they could.

With the scarcity of new tools, a used Craftsman direct drive saw was that
sold new for $129 will bring $2900 from the widow Jones who is now living a
fancy life selling off the deceased hubby's tools. A Unisaw can be bartered
for a cottage on the lake. Security systems will be installed on 8"
jointers. Damn, my wife will be tempted to hasten my death as she sees the
value of my tools out pacing my 401k by 500%.

Hey man, don't bogart that thing, give the rest of us a
poke, won't you?

UA100

Mark wrote:
Buy Used! Buy Often! Get more bang for the buck! Put the money in
someone's pocket who's going to buy new and take the hit!

sigh...

The force is strong with this one.

UA100, who has seen no depreciation with his 'chinery
buys...

bad monkey!

dave

Unisaw A100 wrote:

Ever so often I like to mull this one over. Not that I
particularly care (I don't really (OK I do but I'm jaded))
but it gives me something to do between the trips to the
drive-up windows. Anyway, it certainly appears that maybe
we don't have a whole lot of say anymore. Like for
instance,

Let's say I take my hard earned dollars ('Murican money
David) and we take it to Jet/Powermatic/Wilton
(JetConGlomCo) or Grizzly and we give it/them to the nice
man there. He in turn begins a process of giving the
dollars to his company and eventually they (the company)
splits off a couple few dollars here to stay in 'Murica
(warehouse/office admin/other such peoples based on 'Murican
soil) , some goes to the corporate side of things (based
where ever in the world, I think its a mobile home in
Nebraska) and the rest goes to the country of origin where
raw materials are paid for, 'lektricuty is paid for and the
children who manufacture the 'chinery get their daily bread.

Seems like a sad trek that the dollars take, eh? Then I got
to thinking, what of the dollars we spend directly to a
'Murican company. Well, they keep a larger percentage here
as one might expect but most 'Murican companies reside in a
GlowBall market and, well, some of those good, hard earned
dollars get mixed in with the corporate spit and, well,
guess what? Uh-huh, you got it Chester. They've gone and
wrapped a couple hunnerts up and sent them off to (insert
your favorite emerging third world country here) to help pay
for their own operations based in that country.

sigh!

I mean, what's a body to do? Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
about it. Here we have a place where we can spend our money
and not only does it stay in the good old U.S. of A. but it
stays right down here on a local level. What more can/could
you/we ask for? Well, let's see. You've given the nice man
the money and what does he do with it? Yep, he goes to the
Pigg-a-la Wigg-a-lee and he buys Pop Tarts and Tang (Made In
'Murica) for the family breakfast table. On the way home he
notices he needs gasoline for the auto-mobile so he stops to
top off the tank. We all know that money stays here, I
mean, we have the oil reserves to last us well into the ends
of our lifetimes. While gassing up he notices he needs new
tennis shoes so its off to Kohls (they have the best tennis
shoe prices) where he drops $40ish on new shoes. But, but,
but, but, doesn't that money go off shore? Why yes it does
but only a very small percentage. $5 goes to the country of
origin to pay for raw materials and manufacture (to pay the
children who make our shoes/clothes). $5 goes to the
corporate entity who have masterminded this ekonomik
scenario. The rest of the money goes to good and tall
'Murican athletes who then in turn use it to stimulate the
national ekonomy buy buying Escalades and tennis bracelets.

A'yup, I wish I had a lead on some used machinery right
about now so I could contribute to this little machine.

UA100, who keeps his own stimulus package in his pants...

d hamann notes:

I absolutely detest Microsoft, but I have to admit that this has been an
excellent keyboard. I was bored and counted my lifetime usenet achievement
awhile back, and came up with around 18,000 messages. If you figure an
average of only 100 words per message, and five letters and a space per
word (both low, since I write big messages with lots of twenty dollar
college boy words), that's 10,800,000 keystrokes just for usenet posting
alone.

Yup. Made in USA.

funny... I turned my natural keyboard over, and "Made in Mexico"

How old is it, and how heavy is it? Mine is one of the originals, made in the
U.S., and my wife's is one I can't used it's so light (about 1/3 the weight of
this monster). Dunno where it was made, but it's only 2-3 years old, so
probably elsewhere.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:06:15 GMT, Mark
wrote:

If I can avoid buying new I will.

I'll let some goofball pay retail and let them take the hit of decrease
of value by simple virtue of taking possession.


Not to mention motor vehicles. G

Barry

J&K Copeland writes:

But there is another problem that's just now beginning to appear on the
horzion. One of the factors involved with the movement of raw manufacturing
into foreign environments, is the extremely cheap transportation costs of
moving the completed product(s) back into local markets. Fossil fuels are
NOT going to get any cheaper, and if you listen to some, the era of
(relatively) cheap energy is drawing to a close for everyone. (I don't
quite believe it myself, but some relatively rational people are predicting
that the peak oil production has already been reached and *no matter what*,
oil production world wide, will very gradually begin to decline.

Uh, yeah. Eventually. But back around '73, the parents of the guys and gals
making the current predictions swore up and down we'd be totally--not partly,
but totally--out of reclaimable oil by the late '80s or early '90s.

Whoops. Sane and rational doesn't add much to predictions, I'm afraid.
Nostradamus may have been a nut, and wrong 98% of the time, but that 2% right
is about 1000% higher than anyone else's rate.

Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson

In article , Unisaw A100
wrote:

Then it hit me like a bolt of
lightning. Specifically, my mantra, "Buy Used". Think
about it.

As useful an economic theory as any I've ever come across.

djb

--
There are no socks in my email address.

"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"

Hi

Here's a spreadsheet I made up of some simple numbers for the choice
Dewalt might have had for their cabinet saw line. The "Hi Quality"
numbers is the "made in America" choice, the "Low Quality" is the
Taiwanesse route.

You can play around with it, but the example below is one possible
cost structure..Where Hi Quality cost is only $100 more than Lo
Quality...you need a lot more sales (40% more) to make the same
profits...If making it in China is very cheap then you don't need a
very large % increase in sales to match the Hi quality profit... In
fact if the cost to make in China is $650, you still make more money
on only a 10 % increase in sales.

Notes: My assumption is that at a lower price you will increase sales.
Also, there are many hidden risks that most companies ignore in "off
shoring" for the first time..such as currency fluctuations, foriegn
government meddling in factory ownership/regulations, labor, shipping,
etc.etc....

Sales Numbers
Hi Quality Qty 1000
Low Quality Qty 1400

Hi Quality Sale Price 1200
Lo Quality Sale Price 1000

Clost Numbers
Hi Quality Cost 850
Lo Quality Cost 750

Hi Quality Lo Quality
Net Sales $1,200,000.00 $1,400,000.00
Less Cost $850,000.00 $1,050,000.00
Gross Profit $350,000.00 $350,000.00