Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan

On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

I think it was who stated:

What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some
plastic or EEEK, aluminum?

Uhhh . . . I suppose Harry puts the saw in "Bypass Mode" to
temporarily disable the brake and does his aluminum cutting, perhaps?
I don't think plastic cutting is an issue (I read the owner's manual
on the SawStop Web site). What is "EEEK"?

It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
you are around construction sites very much..

The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
situations, does it? Duh.

--
"What do *you* care what other people think?" --Arline Feynman

wrote:

In a shop where they are using uiniform materials in a repetitive
process that makes sense.
What happens the first time Harry Homeowner decides to chop up some
plastic or EEEK, aluminum?

Some of us do other thinghs beside fine cabinetry.

It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
you are around construction sites very much..


The SawStop would cut plastic just fine. I don't know about aluminum
but it will cut embedded nails and staples without triggering the stop
action. Since the SawStop is cabinet saw (a very good one from the
reviews), I don't see the point of the construction comments.

I know of woodworkers who have lost fingers to table saws because of a
moments distraction. The SawStop would have prevented those accidents.

And no, I don't work for SawStop or sell them. I'm one of those Harry
Homeowners.

Jess.S

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:24:27 -0500, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank


Yeah, good point. Especially the second paragraph sounds more like an
advertisement to me.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:00:47 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:49:42 -0500, Don Fearn
wrote:

It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
you are around construction sites very much..

The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
situations, does it? Duh.

I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
are also irrelevant.


For sure it is a valid question.
Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes.
For example -
The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than
those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic.
Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see
in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated
information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
variable, it means very little.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.

I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...

I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...

Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so we
make our decisions accordingly.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.

I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...

I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...

Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so we
make our decisions accordingly.

Cheers -

Rob Lee



Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Frank

Frank Boettcher (in ) said:

| Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
| regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who
| is "we"?

Rob is the President of Lee Valley Tools Ltd, and generally lurks more
than he posts.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Rob runs Lee Valley Tools.


Chris

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Robin is president of Lee Valley Tools who I believe are the largest hand
tools retailer in Canada. Request a catalogue online and I expect you'll
become a customer.

http://www.leevalley.com/

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
. ..
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.

I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...

I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...

Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
we
make our decisions accordingly.

Cheers -

Rob Lee



Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Frank

Hi Frank -

I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches....

(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)

We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
environment (many users, multiple skill levels).

I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
be buying a Sawstop.

Cheers -

Rob

"arw01" wrote in message
oups.com...
Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

I have heard of this happening several times from posters in the group.
LeeValley has gone this route and I would not be suprised if WoodCraft
follows that trend now that they actually sell the SawStop.




They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

I have only heard of 1 complaint/problem with the SawStop having a false
positive. SawStop corrected the problem and IIRC the person having the
problem was reported to have later had a positive trigger that saved him
from injury. Do a DAGS to locate the post in this group.
Other than that I have only heard and read praise about the machine from
ACTUAL users.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 06:32:19 -0400, Joe Bemier
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 00:00:47 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:49:42 -0500, Don Fearn
wrote:

It also makes me wonder how many of these "saw accidents" were guys on
a metal framing job/trim job with "chopsaw" or just the guy you see on
a ladder with a skilsaw or cutting 2x4s on his knee. You see that if
you are around construction sites very much..

The SawStop doesn't have anything to do with either of those
situations, does it? Duh.

I was just wondering how many "accidents" in the statistic they used
are also irrelevant.


For sure it is a valid question.
Statistics are very easily portrayed as one wishes.
For example -
The death rate among persons over 63 who quit smoking is higher than
those who continue to smoke. This is a true and valid statistic.
Thus, statistics can be very misleading. Most of the statistics we see
in our daily lives are worthless because we don't have associated
information. USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
variable, it means very little.

In a Political Science class I once had it was pointed out that year
after year there is a proven direct correlation between the
consumption of ice cream and the incidence of rape. Look at any year
and you will see that starting in January as the total amount of ice
cream per week or month increases, so do the number of reported rapes.
Some might be tempted to proclaim that this is proof that the
consumption of ice cream causes rape and decide that we should outlaw
ice cream. I suppose others might conclude that rapists must consume
vast quantities of ice cream after doing their crime and thus police
should stake out Ben & Jerrys to look for rapists.


Others might be tempted to note that both ice cream consumption and
rape tend to increase and decrease as outside temperatures vary.

I believe Mark Twain noted that there are three kinds of lies...lies,
damned lies and statistics.

Dave hall

Leon wrote:

I have only heard of 1 complaint/problem with the SawStop having a false
positive. SawStop corrected the problem and IIRC the person having the
problem was reported to have later had a positive trigger that saved him
from injury. Do a DAGS to locate the post in this group.
Other than that I have only heard and read praise about the machine from
ACTUAL users.

I think the machine itself is great. The saw appears well-made,
operates smoothly, generally a nice piece of equipment. The stopping
mechanism is impressive to watch (saw it at a wood show).

At the moment it's too expensive for me as a home user (half again as
much as a made-in-Canada General?), and I think the political
machinations are despicable.

Chris

Joe Bemier wrote:
USA Today likes to print fancy looking charts and graphs
to go with a particular story. However, try to find the confidence
interval or standard deviation to go with the data. The charts are
nice, but unless we can see how the data was prepared and the
variable, it means very little.

Not only that-- the way they scale their charts is almost always
extremely misleading. Say, for example, they've got some stat that's
gone from 1012 up to 1097 over some period of time. That's under 8.5%,
not very impressive really. So they start the Y axis of the damned
chart at 1000 instead of zero and end at 1100. Now the number goes from
near the bottom to near the top, and it looks like whatever they're
reporting has octupled. It drives me crazy.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:15:40 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.

I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...

I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...

Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
we
make our decisions accordingly.

Cheers -

Rob Lee



Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Frank

Hi Frank -

I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches....

(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)

We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
environment (many users, multiple skill levels).

I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
be buying a Sawstop.

Cheers -

Rob



Rob,

Thanks for responding. It's good to have a substantiated claim by
someone who has made the decision to move in that direction, and I
hope you were not offended by my lack of recognition.

SawStop has been somewhat controversial and I've detected some trolls
in the past when this subject comes up. I suspect that if, the
quantity of table saw injuries that have sometimes been put on this
board without substantiation were true, someone from my organization
would have be in deposition twenty-four hours a day.

The controversy, in my opinion, is not in the area of advancing the
technology which is a good thing, but in getting the UL/CSA standards
boards or the goverment to mandate the technology and force it on
every manufacturer. I'm not in favor of that.

Based on the crowd they drew at IWF this year and years past, they
should be able to promote the technology without the mandate.

Frank

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:15:40 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 09:30:48 -0400, "Rob Lee"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep 2006 17:36:44 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Been in production use for 2 years in the small building I was at. I
was told the main factory had another 12 of them. Last summer they
sold all the Powermatics and Unisaws (10) at an auction.

They loved the saw, and it had made two saves for them in the last 2
years, both ended up with a tiny scar after a band-aid was applied.
The workman's compensation claims would have been HUGE.

Alan


Since this is a controversial subject it would be appropriate for you
to name the organization that you speak of and provide contact
information so that others may check for themselves.

Frank

Frank - we've made exactly the same decision here... replacing all of our
table saws with Sawstops... (14 at least, probably more...)

I hope none of them ever goes off - but I can almost guarantee at least
one
will eventually. I can also tell you from personal experience that the
fine
for at fault accidents (and this is determined by a trial) is 100K. That
does not include Workmans Comp, legal fees, or management time.

I can also add that all of our staff really like the saw too...

I don't find two "saves" to be a stretch at all...

Statistically - an invidual isn't likely to lose a digit, and makes
decisions accordingly. Statistically as a corporation, we're likely to
have
an accident with the number of saws we have and the number of users - so
we
make our decisions accordingly.

Cheers -

Rob Lee



Good for you, Rob, and pardon my ignorance in the event you are a
regular poster to this newsgroup, well known to all but me, but who is
"we"?

Frank

Hi Frank -

I'm just a guy who doesn't like staff with with stitches....

(As noted - Lee Valley Tools.)

We have 13 stores - each with a woodshop (for staff to use, and for building
displays, giving seminars etc...). Our manufacturing and R&D shops also have
saws... Should also note that we've stopped using dado sets too... nothing
wrong with them, there are just safer ways to achieve the same thing in our
environment (many users, multiple skill levels).

I personally have an Inca with a sliding table (and riving knife) - so won't
be buying a Sawstop.

Cheers -

Rob



That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
...


That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.


On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.

Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
of a deterrent.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:35:28 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
.. .


That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.

For whatever reason, Leon - the point is he won't be buying one.


On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.

Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
of a deterrent.

You are citing logic (and I agree with you) but, I'm interested to
know the reality. There are many *should nots* in this world but we
can never depend on that. Here's one- People *should not* operate a
motor vehicle while intoxicated.

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...

I think the machine itself is great. The saw appears well-made, operates
smoothly, generally a nice piece of equipment. The stopping mechanism is
impressive to watch (saw it at a wood show).

Well perhaps in the future as the contractor versions come out or as other
manufacturers follow Powermatic in starting to add more safety features the
saw will come down in price.


At the moment it's too expensive for me as a home user (half again as much
as a made-in-Canada General?), and I think the political machinations are
despicable.

Chris


IMHO until you actually loose a digit you may never agree with how it is
brought to market. I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
finishing the cut and after turning the saw off. My position is that in
this particular case I think every one would benefit from this device
because proper technique does not guarantee freedom from injury. Say a
child sneaks into your shop and turns the saw on and the unthinkable
happens. There are millions of possibilities.

I am kind of like a parent that becomes involved in the prevention of a
disease after he looses a child to that disease. You really don't see the
big picture until it is too late. The government got involved and required
kids to be immunized before starting school and as a result many child hood
diseases were almost wiped out. Unfortunately the government does not
enforce this as strictly it has in the past and some of those diseases are
on the rise. I am sure there are still some parents that wish the
government had not gotten involved in immunizations also. Whether your
view is pro or con IMHO this is one of the situations where government
involvement would better serve the general public than many other situations
it is involved in.
I don't want the government involved any more than the next person but in
this situation I can find it easier to swallow that pill.

"Leon" wrote:


"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
.. .


That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.

Maybe, although your argument is less than compelling. (I don't think
I would be trading down from my Ryobi, just because I would be giving
up a sliding tableVBG.)


On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.

Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and the
fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
of a deterrent.

I agree it shouldn't. But it would be nice to see data to support or
refute that (not that LV's experience, even over many years, would be
statistically significant).
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:35:28 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
. ..


That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.

For whatever reason, Leon - the point is he won't be buying one.

Exactly. You wanted to attach an opinion,

Further reinforcing the opinion that the technology is good in some
applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

So did I.



On a side note; I will be interested to know if your *fire rate*
exceeds that of historical accident rates. In other words will the
safety mechanism result in operators becoming more sloppy.

Operators should not become more sloppy just as gun owners did not become
more sloppy when the safety was added. A blade spinning at 100 mph and
the
fact that a blade that is not spinning will still cut you should be enough
of a deterrent.

You are citing logic (and I agree with you) but, I'm interested to
know the reality. There are many *should nots* in this world but we
can never depend on that. Here's one- People *should not* operate a
motor vehicle while intoxicated.

Well, I see the point you are trying to make, I think, however should we not
try to improve because we know that we cannot protect against every senerio?

"alexy" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote:


"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
. ..


That's good info, Rob. I particularly note the fact that you will not
be buying one for personal use. Further reinforcing the opinion that
the technology is good in some applications, but should not be forced
on those who don't feel the need.

That would be trading down as Sawstop does not offer a sliding table.

Maybe, although your argument is less than compelling. (I don't think
I would be trading down from my Ryobi, just because I would be giving
up a sliding tableVBG.)

LOL, yeah, I forgot to include the brand saw he is using also.

Leon wrote:

...... The government got
involved and required kids to be immunized before starting school and
as a result many child hood diseases were almost wiped out. Unfortunately
the government does not enforce this as strictly it has
in the past and some of those diseases are on the rise.

Sorry Leon, but that is not correct. Having been employed with public health
for 17+ years, I can assure you the enforcements are even stricter than
before. However, your observation that there has been a rise in the
incidents of childhood infectious disease is correct. If you look at the
demographic breakdown, you'll see that the rise is occuring due to illegal
migrants. The mexican, central and south american countries do not have the
same level of immunization laws and required compliance as America.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

clipped

| In a Political Science class I once had it was
pointed out that
| year after year there is a proven direct correlation
between the
| consumption of ice cream and the incidence of rape.
Look at any | year and you will see that starting in
January as the total
| amount of ice cream per week or month increases, so
do the
| number of reported rapes. Some might be tempted to
proclaim | that this is proof that the consumption of
ice cream causes rape | and decide that we should
outlaw ice cream. I suppose others
| might conclude that rapists must consume vast
quantities of ice | cream after doing their crime and
thus police should stake out
| Ben & Jerrys to look for rapists.
|
|
| Others might be tempted to note that both ice cream
| consumption and rape tend to increase and decrease as
outside
| temperatures vary.
|
| I believe Mark Twain noted that there are three kinds
of
| lies...lies, damned lies and statistics.
|
| Dave hall

Reminds me of the book "How To Lie With Statistics" by
Darrell Huff. It covers a multitude of ways to mislead
(lie) people. It's probably time to blow the dust off
it and re-read, refresh and re-arm myself.

John Flatley

--
My generation never got a break. When I was young they
taught me to respect my elders. Now that I am older,
they tell me to listen to the youth of the country.

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

...... The government got
involved and required kids to be immunized before starting school and
as a result many child hood diseases were almost wiped out.
Unfortunately the government does not enforce this as strictly it has
in the past and some of those diseases are on the rise.

Sorry Leon, but that is not correct. Having been employed with public
health for 17+ years, I can assure you the enforcements are even stricter
than before. However, your observation that there has been a rise in the
incidents of childhood infectious disease is correct. If you look at the
demographic breakdown, you'll see that the rise is occuring due to illegal
migrants. The mexican, central and south american countries do not have
the same level of immunization laws and required compliance as America.


The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
choice of words in that respect.

Leon wrote:

The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
choice of words in that respect.

Ah, I understand now. :-)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came along
to blame for all of society's woes...

Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or invade
Iraq did they?


John E.


"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
choice of words in that respect.

Ah, I understand now. :-)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"John Emmons" wrote in message
It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came
along
to blame for all of society's woes...

We didn't complain as much because we didn't pay as much in taxes to support
so many other people, illegal or not. Nor did we educate people in 20
different languages. Or try to.

No need to go to Iraq to invade a country. All they have to do is walk
across the border and invade this one.

todd

"John Emmons" wrote in message
...
It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came
along
to blame for all of society's woes...

Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or
invade
Iraq did they?


John E.


"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

The rise in illegal migrants was what I was getting at. Sorry for the
choice of words in that respect.

Ah, I understand now. :-)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

John Emmons wrote:

It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration
came along to blame for all of society's woes...

This isn't stuff made up to simply blame illegal immigrants, it is an
unfortunate reality. In our health district alone, it was becoming an almost
an overwhelming chase to try to track down the families of illegals to try
and get the kids immunized and to get TB testing done. In LA County there
were over 180 deaths last year due to measles; these outbreaks were
primarily among the unimmunized kids of illegals.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Bugg (in ) said:

| John Emmons wrote:
|
|| It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration
|| came along to blame for all of society's woes...
|
| This isn't stuff made up to simply blame illegal immigrants, it is
| an unfortunate reality. In our health district alone, it was
| becoming an almost an overwhelming chase to try to track down the
| families of illegals to try and get the kids immunized and to get
| TB testing done. In LA County there were over 180 deaths last year
| due to measles; these outbreaks were primarily among the
| unimmunized kids of illegals.

This isn't exactly a new scenario. I think I recall reading that
immigrants brought the first cases of smallpox, cholera, and several
varieties of VD to the Americas - leading to hundreds of thousands of
deaths and the demise of at least one major culture.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

John Emmons wrote:

SNIP

Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house

No, the "former" Cubans did (see election results - Florida)!

If you think Isreal's lobbying capacity and influence is pretty
powerful - check out the Anti-Castro Cuban American influence.
Wonder what they'll obsess on when Castro dies?

charlie b

My first "hard liquor" drink was a Cuba Libre - in Panama. At least
"la revolucion" had one positive affect.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:57:38 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
finishing the cut and after turning the saw off.

Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote in message
Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).

I believe the Sawstop system stays active until the blade stops spinning.

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:57:38 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

I was always careful and lost half of my thumb to my
old Craftsman saw. As careful as I am I still had the accident after
finishing the cut and after turning the saw off.

Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).


:~) If the blade is still spinning after the saw is turned off the blade
can still get you. Now that is pretty obvious but falls into one of the
millions of ways an accident can happen when you are not cutting wood. When
not cutting wood the average person is probably not as attentive as he
should be, I was not. The SawStop would prevent this because it still
works if the blade is turning after being turned off. I verified this
feature soon after the SawStop was introduced.

John Emmons wrote:
It's amazing, I wonder what people did before illegal immigration came along
to blame for all of society's woes...

Is there anything that can't be blamed on illegal immigration? I mean the
illegal folks didn't elect the criminal inhabiting the white house or invade
Iraq did they?


And who knows, maybe the illegals actually understand the meaning of the
word "criminal." From what is written above, it is obvious that you do not.

Glen
(who is amazed at how supposedly educated individuals throw loaded words
about with no regard to accuracy or truth)

Upscale wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message

Not trying to start an arguement here, but how would a SawStop have
helped you in the circumstances you describe? Or maybe you weren't
trying to make SS' case with your accident. It wasn't clear to me
which (nor was it in all the stuff I snipped).


I believe the Sawstop system stays active until the blade stops spinning.


You are correct, it does.

Glen

In the first place I ever worked where I used a table saw, the rule was that
the first thing that you did after turning off the saw was to crank the
blade down below the table. I still do that now. On the few occasions that
that is not practical, being in the habit of cranking it down forces you to
think about that blade being exposed.

"Leon" wrote in message
...
:~) If the blade is still spinning after the saw is turned off the blade
can still get you. Now that is pretty obvious but falls into one of the
millions of ways an accident can happen when you are not cutting wood.
When
not cutting wood the average person is probably not as attentive as he
should be, I was not. The SawStop would prevent this because it still
works if the blade is turning after being turned off. I verified this
feature soon after the SawStop was introduced.