My quest for a new cabinet saw ended Thursday. It's not in my shop
yet but the order is placed. I want to thank all who knowingly and
unknowingly assisted me in making my decision. (SWMBO didn't think I
would ever decide)

I went with the Delta Unisaw, left-tilt with a 30" Biesemeyer fence,
purchased locally from Woodcraft on their "10% off day." My reasons
are many and I will expound on them below. Those that don't care can
stop reading here. [g]

The possible choices in order of decreasing price and theoretical
superiority:

1) General 650-T50. Widely considered to be the best saw with the
crappiest documentation and customer service. Dealers are essentially
non-existent. Only available with a 50" fence. Finely ground
tabletop. Lousy dust collection. Top fully assembled when delivered.
Built in North America. Reported to have "massive" trunnions. (Ever
notice that "massive" always precedes trunnion when table saws are
mentioned. Sort of like "Powerful" House Ways and Means Committee.)
An email to Wilke Machine asking whether a 30" fence was an option was
answered almost two weeks later. They offered to "modify" to 30".
Cost was $1,850 plus $200 shipping charge! An email to an alleged
dealer in Arizona was never answered.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct 2003, private
email-Wilke.

2) Powermatic PM-66. Relatively pricey. Many issues with quality of
cut, miter gauge slot badly machined and general fit and finish
issues. Finely ground tabletop. Table inserts are junk. Lousy dust
collection. Can be had with 30" fence although without a right side
cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is trouble. "Massive"
trunnions. Built in USA. Available locally (Tucson) from Woodworkers'
Source.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003, private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553942


3) Delta Unisaw. The original American standard. Company is a nomad
moving from owner to owner. Made in USA although some production
moved? or moving? offshore. Can be had with 30" fence although without
a right side cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is
problematic. Cast iron extension can be purchased separately. Many
issues with tabletop flatness. Top not as finely ground as other saw
in class. Excellent dust collection and quality of cut. Blade guard
sucks. Available with a "real" Biesemeyer fence. Tech support hard to
reach. I got one question answered after six transfers and 10 minutes
of wait. Gave up on another call. Available locally.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003.

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553853

4) Jet. Considered to be the best of the imports. Excellent fit and
finish. Nicely ground top although main table has a thick bevel on
front edge and iron wings have none. Not well advertised but can be
had with 30" Biesemeyer clone fence and two iron table extensions.
Some quality of cut issues. Poorly written manual. Available locally
from two dealers at competitive prices with home delivery. A strong
contender.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003. Dealer
visits.

5) Grizzly. The mystery saw. The mystery is whether you will get a
good one in one piece or not. Comes with a 30" fence and two iron
extensions. Some owners love them and some wish they'd never seen one.
A lot of saw for the money and often no more tweaking to get running
than saws costing twice as much. Some quality of cut issues. Some
fence issues although this is (supposed to be) being addressed. (How
do you know?) Motor failures. Delivery is problematic. Lots of
damaged saws are reported.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003, private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=552982

I mentioned what and where I bought, here's the why.

I really wanted a short fence. The trend is to 50-52" fences with
huge tables. I could park one of these in my garage/shop but actually
using it would be a problem. I spoke to a Delta rep at Woodcraft and
asked about this trend and why they didn't do an "X" saw package for
the short saw. He replied that he has a short one too but today
woodworkers want big tables, now with routers installed and he
expected that they will soon offer table-mounted TV sets too.

The short fence requirement and their dealer problem eliminated
General.

Powermatic is the "gold" standard, but it seems more so with people
that don't actually own one. When I visited a local dealer and
indicated that I could afford one if there were compelling reasons, he
showed me a Jet. Too much money for no obvious superiority.

I shopped for a Jet at Tool Crib (aka Amazon). I've bought a lot of
stuff from them, but the guy I spoke to couldn't have been less
knowledgeable or helpful. As far as he knew Jet offers 52" fence
versions only. Not so.

Woodworker's Source was *very* helpful. They showed me their Jet
setup in the shop and offered to "build" whatever Jet system I wanted.
They had competitive pricing, actually had the machines in stock and
offered free delivery to my shop plus I have a $100 coupon burning a
hole in my pocket. It was tough to not buy here, especially with the
promise of local follow-on support.

Grizzly was just too iffy. This is a once-in-a-lifetime purchase that
I didn't want to regret. A few hundred dollars more are lost in the
noise after a few years.

This left Delta. There are a lot of detractors, however, the saw is a
proven design with parts and service widely available. It reportedly
has a quality of cut second only to General; the industry standard
Biesemeyer fence and excellent dust collection.

I shopped Woodworker's Supply for this saw, since their catalog
actually shows the "build your own saw" option and I've successfully
done business with them in the past. When I couldn't find some prices
on their web site for accessory packages, I called on the telephone.

The sales guy couldn't find package prices either and quoted me the
individual piece prices. When I said that that didn't seem like a
package deal to me he got testy and more or less hung up without
trying to close a deal. I emailed some folks there with the info that
they had web site problems and Woodcraft's 10% off sale and their
sales guy's attitude made it difficult to consider shopping with them.

I got a response that they would beat any local dealer's price if I
would call back. I emailed again and asked for a written quote and
shipping methods and costs and got back a list of catalog prices with
another request that I call back. I know why they didn't want to put
it in writing but I was the customer and I had other options.

Back to Woodcraft. Earlier in the week they offered the sale price
without waiting for sale day. Since I wanted some other stuff I
waited until Thursday. SWMBO went next door to clothes shop. I had
my aforementioned conversation with the Delta rep and finalized my
decision to buy a 36-831LA. Sales tax of 5.6% will offset much of the
discount, but for the money I get eyeball-to-eyeball service and a
one-year "if I'm not happy bring it back guarantee." Plus they'll
deliver it to my house for $15 for "gas money." At the current price
of gasoline that's not much more than it would cost to drive my
454-powered Chevy 4X4 into town. [g]

SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:13:53 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote:

My quest for a new cabinet saw ended Thursday.

SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I said,
"No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

So lessee- This is an overview of all the popular cabinet saws, an update
on the state of your shop AND a drive-by SWMBO gloat? SOB

--
Joe Wells

Note: Truncation set to maximum

Wes Stewart wrote:
2) Powermatic PM-66. Built in USA.

I am cornfused. I had heard that WHM (WMH?) Group had
closed the Powermatic plant and it was converted over to a
distribution center (center Luigi). Had/have I heard
wrongly?

SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

And the gloat? It's the wimmen in your life.

Nicely crafted write-up Wes. I like a guy that does his
homework.

UA100

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:37:30 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

|Note: Truncation set to maximum
|
|Wes Stewart wrote:
|2) Powermatic PM-66. Built in USA.
|
|I am cornfused. I had heard that WHM (WMH?) Group had
|closed the Powermatic plant and it was converted over to a
|distribution center (center Luigi). Had/have I heard
|wrongly?

Well, Amazon shows USA for country of manufacture. Of course until a
few days ago (after I sent them feedback), they showed USA for Jet
too. So I'm not sure [g]

|
|SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
|bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
|said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."
|
|And the gloat? It's the wimmen in your life.
|
|Nicely crafted write-up Wes. I like a guy that does his
|homework.

Thanks. We'll see how it works out.

Wes

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:02:46 -0600, Joe Wells
wrote:

|On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:13:53 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote:
|
| My quest for a new cabinet saw ended Thursday.
|
| SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
| bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I said,
| "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."
|
|So lessee- This is an overview of all the popular cabinet saws, an update
|on the state of your shop AND a drive-by SWMBO gloat? SOB

Gotta cover all of the bases. But is that "SOB" as in Boo Hoo, or Son
of a Bitch? [g]

Wes Stewart writes:
SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

Reminds me of an old story from my first employer. The sales dude
spent a great deal of time negotiating with a customer over a $400k
mainframe. Finally, with the deal nearly done, the customer mentions
they'd like a boatload of PCs and printers to go with it - to the tune
of another $800k.

good choice, Wes. I'd humbly disagree that the Powermatic is the "Gold
Standard", though. Without listing specific issues, I looked at the
Uni, PM, and Jet side by side for about 2 hours at Woodcrafters one
rainy afternoon, and I picked the Uni. I don't think think you are
settling for second or third best. 'course there are plenty of folks
who'd love to argue the point, but I for one, am happy I chose the
Unisaw. Just don't confuse me with a Delta advocate, as I have had my
share of negative Delta experiences which we'll skip for now.

The only time I had problems with reaching Delta's tech support was
during a holiday week. (Quality of support is a different subject g)

My Uni top polished up quite nicely with some elbow grease. Out of the
box it was ground pretty coarse.

The PM was $600 more than the Unisaw when I priced them 2 years ago, if
you consider the mobile base with both. Definitely, it's pricey!

Here are some tips for you from Tony Collums that he was kind enough to
post for me:


Tony Collums wrote:
Dave,
Congrats,
Just a couple of assembly hints I give all my customers.

1) Assemble the mobile base first the take saw body off of skid and
place in
MB.

2) It may not say in the manual, but make sure that you put the
switch on
before assembling the rails to the saw. Taking them back off is real
frustrating and aggravating.

3) Since your going to be on a mobile base, don't follow the layout
pattern
for the legs. The manual assumes that your not going to have a
mobile base.

4) When attaching the cast iron wings to the saw, level the center
first
then the outer edges. Just make sure that nothing is higher than
the saw
table itself. If the wings are a little low, it will not hurt a
thing other
than your fence make a slight bumping sound when you move across
it. Use the
same on the extension table.

5) Make sure that you tighten the belts, they are not tensioned at the
plant. This is done to save unnecessary jarring on the bearings during
shipment.

6)When installing the blade for the first time, don't be surprised
if it's
not a little difficult. Delta machines the arbor and face flange
with the
carriage and bearings already installed for accuracy (no one else does
this). There can sometimes be a few burrs left. Take some 150 or
180 grit
sandpaper and wrap it around the arbor and turn the arbor, you will not
damage the arbor. What ever you do, do not try to force the blade
on. You
could create a bigger problem. Just be patient. Put your hat on
straight and
put a little hair around the hole. It will go on.

7) Count all of your fingers, plug it in, turn it on, have fun, recount
fingers, if the number is the same, you had a successful day. If
not, check
the floor, call the wife and go to the doctor. Make sure he puts on
a water
proof bandage so you can wash it off when your hands get dirty
while in the
shop next time.

Best of luck,

Tony Collums


dave

Wes Stewart wrote:

My quest for a new cabinet saw ended Thursday. It's not in my shop
yet but the order is placed. I want to thank all who knowingly and
unknowingly assisted me in making my decision. (SWMBO didn't think I
would ever decide)

I went with the Delta Unisaw, left-tilt with a 30" Biesemeyer fence,
purchased locally from Woodcraft on their "10% off day." My reasons
are many and I will expound on them below. Those that don't care can
stop reading here. [g]

The possible choices in order of decreasing price and theoretical
superiority:

1) General 650-T50. Widely considered to be the best saw with the
crappiest documentation and customer service. Dealers are essentially
non-existent. Only available with a 50" fence. Finely ground
tabletop. Lousy dust collection. Top fully assembled when delivered.
Built in North America. Reported to have "massive" trunnions. (Ever
notice that "massive" always precedes trunnion when table saws are
mentioned. Sort of like "Powerful" House Ways and Means Committee.)
An email to Wilke Machine asking whether a 30" fence was an option was
answered almost two weeks later. They offered to "modify" to 30".
Cost was $1,850 plus $200 shipping charge! An email to an alleged
dealer in Arizona was never answered.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct 2003, private
email-Wilke.

2) Powermatic PM-66. Relatively pricey. Many issues with quality of
cut, miter gauge slot badly machined and general fit and finish
issues. Finely ground tabletop. Table inserts are junk. Lousy dust
collection. Can be had with 30" fence although without a right side
cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is trouble. "Massive"
trunnions. Built in USA. Available locally (Tucson) from Woodworkers'
Source.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003, private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553942


3) Delta Unisaw. The original American standard. Company is a nomad
moving from owner to owner. Made in USA although some production
moved? or moving? offshore. Can be had with 30" fence although without
a right side cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is
problematic. Cast iron extension can be purchased separately. Many
issues with tabletop flatness. Top not as finely ground as other saw
in class. Excellent dust collection and quality of cut. Blade guard
sucks. Available with a "real" Biesemeyer fence. Tech support hard to
reach. I got one question answered after six transfers and 10 minutes
of wait. Gave up on another call. Available locally.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003.

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553853

4) Jet. Considered to be the best of the imports. Excellent fit and
finish. Nicely ground top although main table has a thick bevel on
front edge and iron wings have none. Not well advertised but can be
had with 30" Biesemeyer clone fence and two iron table extensions.
Some quality of cut issues. Poorly written manual. Available locally
from two dealers at competitive prices with home delivery. A strong
contender.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003. Dealer
visits.

5) Grizzly. The mystery saw. The mystery is whether you will get a
good one in one piece or not. Comes with a 30" fence and two iron
extensions. Some owners love them and some wish they'd never seen one.
A lot of saw for the money and often no more tweaking to get running
than saws costing twice as much. Some quality of cut issues. Some
fence issues although this is (supposed to be) being addressed. (How
do you know?) Motor failures. Delivery is problematic. Lots of
damaged saws are reported.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003, private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm

http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=552982

I mentioned what and where I bought, here's the why.

I really wanted a short fence. The trend is to 50-52" fences with
huge tables. I could park one of these in my garage/shop but actually
using it would be a problem. I spoke to a Delta rep at Woodcraft and
asked about this trend and why they didn't do an "X" saw package for
the short saw. He replied that he has a short one too but today
woodworkers want big tables, now with routers installed and he
expected that they will soon offer table-mounted TV sets too.

The short fence requirement and their dealer problem eliminated
General.

Powermatic is the "gold" standard, but it seems more so with people
that don't actually own one. When I visited a local dealer and
indicated that I could afford one if there were compelling reasons, he
showed me a Jet. Too much money for no obvious superiority.

I shopped for a Jet at Tool Crib (aka Amazon). I've bought a lot of
stuff from them, but the guy I spoke to couldn't have been less
knowledgeable or helpful. As far as he knew Jet offers 52" fence
versions only. Not so.

Woodworker's Source was *very* helpful. They showed me their Jet
setup in the shop and offered to "build" whatever Jet system I wanted.
They had competitive pricing, actually had the machines in stock and
offered free delivery to my shop plus I have a $100 coupon burning a
hole in my pocket. It was tough to not buy here, especially with the
promise of local follow-on support.

Grizzly was just too iffy. This is a once-in-a-lifetime purchase that
I didn't want to regret. A few hundred dollars more are lost in the
noise after a few years.

This left Delta. There are a lot of detractors, however, the saw is a
proven design with parts and service widely available. It reportedly
has a quality of cut second only to General; the industry standard
Biesemeyer fence and excellent dust collection.

I shopped Woodworker's Supply for this saw, since their catalog
actually shows the "build your own saw" option and I've successfully
done business with them in the past. When I couldn't find some prices
on their web site for accessory packages, I called on the telephone.

The sales guy couldn't find package prices either and quoted me the
individual piece prices. When I said that that didn't seem like a
package deal to me he got testy and more or less hung up without
trying to close a deal. I emailed some folks there with the info that
they had web site problems and Woodcraft's 10% off sale and their
sales guy's attitude made it difficult to consider shopping with them.

I got a response that they would beat any local dealer's price if I
would call back. I emailed again and asked for a written quote and
shipping methods and costs and got back a list of catalog prices with
another request that I call back. I know why they didn't want to put
it in writing but I was the customer and I had other options.

Back to Woodcraft. Earlier in the week they offered the sale price
without waiting for sale day. Since I wanted some other stuff I
waited until Thursday. SWMBO went next door to clothes shop. I had
my aforementioned conversation with the Delta rep and finalized my
decision to buy a 36-831LA. Sales tax of 5.6% will offset much of the
discount, but for the money I get eyeball-to-eyeball service and a
one-year "if I'm not happy bring it back guarantee." Plus they'll
deliver it to my house for $15 for "gas money." At the current price
of gasoline that's not much more than it would cost to drive my
454-powered Chevy 4X4 into town. [g]

SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:27:39 GMT, Bay Area Dave wrote:

|good choice, Wes.

Thanks, I needed that.

|I'd humbly disagree that the Powermatic is the "Gold
|Standard", though.

Hey, it's the only one painted "gold." [g]

|Without listing specific issues, I looked at the
|Uni, PM, and Jet side by side for about 2 hours at Woodcrafters one
|rainy afternoon, and I picked the Uni. I don't think think you are
|settling for second or third best. 'course there are plenty of folks
|who'd love to argue the point, but I for one, am happy I chose the
|Unisaw. Just don't confuse me with a Delta advocate, as I have had my
|share of negative Delta experiences which we'll skip for now.
|
|The only time I had problems with reaching Delta's tech support was
|during a holiday week. (Quality of support is a different subject g)
|
|My Uni top polished up quite nicely with some elbow grease. Out of the
|box it was ground pretty coarse.
|
|The PM was $600 more than the Unisaw when I priced them 2 years ago, if
|you consider the mobile base with both. Definitely, it's pricey!
|
|Here are some tips for you from Tony Collums that he was kind enough to
|post for me:

[good stuff snipped]

Thanks for this, 'preciate it.

"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
Reminds me of an old story from my first employer. The sales dude
spent a great deal of time negotiating with a customer over a $400k
mainframe. Finally, with the deal nearly done, the customer mentions
they'd like a boatload of PCs and printers to go with it - to the tune
of another $800k.

Well 400k is not shabby, but the moral is to give good service ALL the time.

Just yesterday I was in our Manchester CT Woodcraft to get a set of $15 cool
blocks. They wee out. Salesman said they always run out fast and that I
should put my name on the list and they would hold them for me. Nice
gesture, but it is an 80 mile round trip.

I suggested that perhaps they should order more. He said "yeah, maybe we
should". Left there and spent over $120 at another store. Found the other
store also has better prices on other tools and will continue to shop there.
Woodcraft will never know how much it cost them.
Ed

Hey Barry,

Yeah, I've got a 650, with no dust collection issues. No probs with the
machine whatsoever. Local dealer is awsome has been around for years.

Cheers,

aw

you're welcome. those instructions saved me some grief. everything
went "according to Hoyle".

dave

Wes Stewart wrote:


Thanks for this, 'preciate it.

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:48:27 GMT, B a r r y
wrote:

|On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:13:53 -0700, Wes Stewart
|wrote:
|
|Nice write up with one comment.
|
|
|1) General 650-T50. Widely considered to be the best saw with the
|crappiest documentation and customer service. Dealers are essentially
|non-existent. Only available with a 50" fence. Finely ground
|tabletop. Lousy dust collection.
|
|The latest versions of the 650 & 350 have a sheet metal chute leading
|to the dust port. This makes quite a difference in the dust
|collection. I have one with the chute, and a local dealer.

Okie Dokie. The sources I relied on didn't indicate this.

I would have loved to see this saw in person.


Wes

i'm still waiting for delivery of my 650-T50 (5 hp) with excalibur
table. ... still waiting. ... and waiting. been 5 weeks, was told it
would be 10-14 days. oh well.

good to hear there are not DC issues. was a bit worried.

-- dz


A Dubya wrote:
Hey Barry,

Yeah, I've got a 650, with no dust collection issues. No probs with the
machine whatsoever. Local dealer is awsome has been around for years.

Cheers,

aw

Hey Wes,

I have no problems with a Uni, I've been in shops that had both, most guys
tend to use the General. They're close, but the General, seems to be a
heavier, more solidly built machine. If you get a chance, look how they're
built, access to the General motor/dust chute doesn't involve tools, and the
size and weight of components on the General are alot heavier.

Cheers,

aw

....you'll never need service on the 650 g I've got an old...and I mean old
General 590 bandsaw (did I mention it was old), walked into the dealership
for a part. 2 minutes later, left the dealer with with the part.

cheers,

aw

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:07:12 -0600, David Zaret wrote
(in message ):

i'm still waiting for delivery of my 650-T50 (5 hp) with excalibur
table. ... still waiting. ... and waiting. been 5 weeks, was told it
would be 10-14 days. oh well.

I waited 6 weeks after calling my "local" dealer a few times (100 miles
away), and after much prodding he called General to find out where the 650
was I ordered. They were waiting on some parts and couldn't give an estimate
of when it would ship. I was a bit frustrated by the whole lack of
communication between the dealership and General. Add to the fact that it was
100 miles to the closest dealer and I finally opted for my second choice, and
bought the Delta left tilt at Woodcraft minus their 10% off. Went in this
weekend to pick up a Jet air filtration unit that had been on order for 5
weeks, and found out the saw had arrived minus the table. Delta was said it
was in transit and should arrive on Tuesday or Wednesday.

In some ways I'm sorry I didn't wait for the General, but the whole buying
experience was tough. While they make a great product, they really need to
establish better dealer networks in the USA. I understand that in Canada this
isn't a problem (and having lived there for a time myself I know how true
this can be for a Canadian product in Canada), however with NAFTA and a lot
of woodworkers here in the States, it almost seems ludicrous that they don't
try harder to sell their products here in the states.

FYI, I have a zero insert for a General 350/650 that I picked up when I paid
for the General (prior to cancelling it). For those General owners that want
it, it can be yours for the price of shipping. (Drop me an email).

B.A. Dave, thanks for the tips on setting up the Unisaw. The only problem I
have is the base unit is something that I have to send in a coupon for
apparently, so looks like I'm going to have to put the base unit on after the
fact. :-(

Wayne

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:48:06 -0600, A Dubya wrote
(in message ):

...you'll never need service on the 650 g I've got an old...and I mean old
General 590 bandsaw (did I mention it was old), walked into the dealership
for a part. 2 minutes later, left the dealer with with the part.

Saw on the net somewhere (wish I could remember the URL) pictures of
somebody's 1950's General saw that wasn't made any longer. They were able to
call General and apparently get all but 1 part (new) from General. I only
wish my buying experience had been similar.

Wayne

Wes, I know it's been some time since you made this post but I to am
looking for a Cabinet saw with a 30" fence. Grizzly nolonger makes a
saw with these dimensions. It looks like the Delta is my best choice.
And since I have some extra money, I'll go ahead and do it.

My quesiton is about mobile bases. Delta recommends the 50-273 with
50-285 extension. Amazon list a 50-273K (a combo of the above two
items). What base did you get? I really wanted to use the space
underneath the wing to place a small cabinet, (similar to what I did
for my Jet saw,
http://home.covad.net/~dbdors/Woodwo...s_forsale.html)

Did you get the Delta base? If yes, how well has it worked out. If
no, what did you choose?

Darrell


Wes Stewart wrote:
My quest for a new cabinet saw ended Thursday. It's not in my shop
yet but the order is placed. I want to thank all who knowingly and
unknowingly assisted me in making my decision. (SWMBO didn't think I
would ever decide)

I went with the Delta Unisaw, left-tilt with a 30" Biesemeyer fence,
purchased locally from Woodcraft on their "10% off day." My reasons
are many and I will expound on them below. Those that don't care can
stop reading here. [g]

The possible choices in order of decreasing price and theoretical
superiority:

1) General 650-T50. Widely considered to be the best saw with the
crappiest documentation and customer service. Dealers are
essentially
non-existent. Only available with a 50" fence. Finely ground
tabletop. Lousy dust collection. Top fully assembled when
delivered.
Built in North America. Reported to have "massive" trunnions. (Ever
notice that "massive" always precedes trunnion when table saws are
mentioned. Sort of like "Powerful" House Ways and Means Committee.)
An email to Wilke Machine asking whether a 30" fence was an option
was
answered almost two weeks later. They offered to "modify" to 30".
Cost was $1,850 plus $200 shipping charge! An email to an alleged
dealer in Arizona was never answered.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct 2003, private
email-Wilke.

2) Powermatic PM-66. Relatively pricey. Many issues with quality of
cut, miter gauge slot badly machined and general fit and finish
issues. Finely ground tabletop. Table inserts are junk. Lousy dust
collection. Can be had with 30" fence although without a right side
cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is trouble. "Massive"
trunnions. Built in USA. Available locally (Tucson) from
Woodworkers'
Source.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003,
private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm


http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553942


3) Delta Unisaw. The original American standard. Company is a nomad
moving from owner to owner. Made in USA although some production
moved? or moving? offshore. Can be had with 30" fence although
without
a right side cast iron extension. Right side laminate table is
problematic. Cast iron extension can be purchased separately. Many
issues with tabletop flatness. Top not as finely ground as other saw
in class. Excellent dust collection and quality of cut. Blade guard
sucks. Available with a "real" Biesemeyer fence. Tech support hard
to
reach. I got one question answered after six transfers and 10
minutes
of wait. Gave up on another call. Available locally.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003.


http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=553853

4) Jet. Considered to be the best of the imports. Excellent fit
and
finish. Nicely ground top although main table has a thick bevel on
front edge and iron wings have none. Not well advertised but can be
had with 30" Biesemeyer clone fence and two iron table extensions.
Some quality of cut issues. Poorly written manual. Available
locally
from two dealers at competitive prices with home delivery. A strong
contender.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003.
Dealer
visits.

5) Grizzly. The mystery saw. The mystery is whether you will get a
good one in one piece or not. Comes with a 30" fence and two iron
extensions. Some owners love them and some wish they'd never seen
one.
A lot of saw for the money and often no more tweaking to get running
than saws costing twice as much. Some quality of cut issues. Some
fence issues although this is (supposed to be) being addressed. (How
do you know?) Motor failures. Delivery is problematic. Lots of
damaged saws are reported.

Info sources. FWW No. 136, June 1999; Wood Magazine Oct, 2003,
private
email-Jack Loganbill-see:

http://thewoodshop.20m.com/g1023s.htm


http://woodmagazine.com/wood/dgroups...&thread=552982

I mentioned what and where I bought, here's the why.

I really wanted a short fence. The trend is to 50-52" fences with
huge tables. I could park one of these in my garage/shop but
actually
using it would be a problem. I spoke to a Delta rep at Woodcraft and
asked about this trend and why they didn't do an "X" saw package for
the short saw. He replied that he has a short one too but today
woodworkers want big tables, now with routers installed and he
expected that they will soon offer table-mounted TV sets too.

The short fence requirement and their dealer problem eliminated
General.

Powermatic is the "gold" standard, but it seems more so with people
that don't actually own one. When I visited a local dealer and
indicated that I could afford one if there were compelling reasons,
he
showed me a Jet. Too much money for no obvious superiority.

I shopped for a Jet at Tool Crib (aka Amazon). I've bought a lot of
stuff from them, but the guy I spoke to couldn't have been less
knowledgeable or helpful. As far as he knew Jet offers 52" fence
versions only. Not so.

Woodworker's Source was *very* helpful. They showed me their Jet
setup in the shop and offered to "build" whatever Jet system I
wanted.
They had competitive pricing, actually had the machines in stock and
offered free delivery to my shop plus I have a $100 coupon burning a
hole in my pocket. It was tough to not buy here, especially with the
promise of local follow-on support.

Grizzly was just too iffy. This is a once-in-a-lifetime purchase
that
I didn't want to regret. A few hundred dollars more are lost in the
noise after a few years.

This left Delta. There are a lot of detractors, however, the saw is
a
proven design with parts and service widely available. It reportedly
has a quality of cut second only to General; the industry standard
Biesemeyer fence and excellent dust collection.

I shopped Woodworker's Supply for this saw, since their catalog
actually shows the "build your own saw" option and I've successfully
done business with them in the past. When I couldn't find some
prices
on their web site for accessory packages, I called on the telephone.

The sales guy couldn't find package prices either and quoted me the
individual piece prices. When I said that that didn't seem like a
package deal to me he got testy and more or less hung up without
trying to close a deal. I emailed some folks there with the info
that
they had web site problems and Woodcraft's 10% off sale and their
sales guy's attitude made it difficult to consider shopping with
them.

I got a response that they would beat any local dealer's price if I
would call back. I emailed again and asked for a written quote and
shipping methods and costs and got back a list of catalog prices with
another request that I call back. I know why they didn't want to put
it in writing but I was the customer and I had other options.

Back to Woodcraft. Earlier in the week they offered the sale price
without waiting for sale day. Since I wanted some other stuff I
waited until Thursday. SWMBO went next door to clothes shop. I had
my aforementioned conversation with the Delta rep and finalized my
decision to buy a 36-831LA. Sales tax of 5.6% will offset much of
the
discount, but for the money I get eyeball-to-eyeball service and a
one-year "if I'm not happy bring it back guarantee." Plus they'll
deliver it to my house for $15 for "gas money." At the current price
of gasoline that's not much more than it would cost to drive my
454-powered Chevy 4X4 into town. [g]

SWMBO returned just as I was paying up. She asked whether I had also
bought that dovetail doodad I'd been thinking about (Leigh D4). I
said, "No". She said, "Why not?" I said, "Add a D4 to the list."

Darrell writes:


Wes, I know it's been some time since you made this post but I to am
looking for a Cabinet saw with a 30" fence. Grizzly nolonger makes a
saw with these dimensions. It looks like the Delta is my best choice.
And since I have some extra money, I'll go ahead and do it.

Where do you get your info? GG1023SL; G1023S.

Charlie Self
"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some
kind of federal program." George W. Bush, St. Charles, Missouri, November 2,
2000

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Darrell writes:


Wes, I know it's been some time since you made this post but I to am
looking for a Cabinet saw with a 30" fence. Grizzly nolonger makes a
saw with these dimensions. It looks like the Delta is my best choice.
And since I have some extra money, I'll go ahead and do it.

Where do you get your info? GG1023SL; G1023S.

Charlie Self

From the Grizzly catalog and website. Both of these saws have 26" capacity,
not 30". I even contacted Grizzly to see if they could sell a G1023SL
without a fence or provide a 30" fence. They could not do it.

Darrell

On 1 Feb 2005 19:05:33 -0800, "Darrell" wrote:

Wes, I know it's been some time since you made this post but I to am
looking for a Cabinet saw with a 30" fence. Grizzly nolonger makes a
saw with these dimensions. It looks like the Delta is my best choice.
And since I have some extra money, I'll go ahead and do it.

My quesiton is about mobile bases. Delta recommends the 50-273 with
50-285 extension. Amazon list a 50-273K (a combo of the above two
items). What base did you get? I really wanted to use the space
underneath the wing to place a small cabinet, (similar to what I did
for my Jet saw,
http://home.covad.net/~dbdors/Woodwo...s_forsale.html)

Did you get the Delta base? If yes, how well has it worked out. If
no, what did you choose?

Yes, I got the Delta base and it's worked out fine for me. It seems
to me that there were some assembly order problems, but I don't
remember exactly what they were, so I guess they weren't a big deal.
Just a few long-forgotten swear words [g]. The saw moves around
easily and even in my somewhat cramped space I can "park it" nicely.

Unfortunately for you, the foot-operated lift mechanism is going to
interfere (or vice-versa) with your cabinet.

FYI during my set-up process I documented some thoughts with the
intent to post them here. As I recall, I didn't follow through,
nevertheless, here they a

1. Decided to buy locally (glad I did) from Woodcraft during
their March (2004) 10% off sale. Went with a 30" Biesemeyer fence and
Delta mobile base. Paid all of $15 extra for home delivery.

2. Week later, saw arrives. Two Woodcraft guys deliver in PU
truck with no lift gate. Call next-door neighbor over and four of us
skid it down a couple of 4x4s without incident. Tilt indicator was
bright red before unloading and big hole in box but no apparent
damage. Sell Craftsman saw to neighbor for hundred bucks.

3. Manage to single-handedly get saw off pallet onto mobile base.
Work stops here during three-week trip.

4. Back home, back to assembly. Options a open all boxes and
do inventory and then lose parts before they are needed; or, wait
until parts are needed to open boxes. Choose second option.

5. Assemble left-hand cast iron extension wing. Doesn't line up.
Make it flush with the table front and rear and it sags 8 thou midway
along the joint line although one inch back from the front, the
extension is proud 4 thou. Left front outside edge of extension
droops 20 thou.

6. Call Wendy at Woodcraft. She says Delta will drop ship
replacement to me. Work stops for a week.

7. UPS man brings new extension wing. This one is worse than the
original! The finish is horrible. On both wings, it appears than
when the grinding wheel was introduced to the iron there was a lot of
chatter. The first couple of inches bear witness to this by being
very rough and showing the wheel marks. If I eat enough Wheaties, I
can turn this thing upside down and use it as a wood rasp. Say to
hell with it and reinstall original extension wing. Determine that
part of the misalignment is an artifact of the main table having a
high spot at the left front edge. Aligning the wing to this spot
creates misalignment along the rest of the interface. Use flat
grinding stone to hone this high spot down and fiddle fart around
until I figure it's good enough.

8. Install front and rear angle supports. Instructions say that
front support that holds rip fence rail must be installed to exact
dimension of 2 27/32" below table top. No way in hell will this
happen without enlarging mounting holes in table top. Start
elongating holes with rat-tail file. Slow going. Decide that since
angle surface is too low, another option would be to add shims between
angle and fence rail. Bolt on fence rail using ¼" flat washers as
shims. Works dandy.

9. Time to mount the laminate extension table. Manual says, and
photos show, mounting of "Z-bracket". No Z-bracket to be found in
boxes. Call Woodcraft. They say they will call Delta and call back.
Next day after not hearing from Woodcraft, I call Delta. Guy says,
"Oh, the Z-bracket isn't used with Beisemeyer fence, the manual is
wrong." While I have him on the phone I mention misalignment of fence
rail. He says, 'Be glad that it's too low, that way you can use shims
for alignment, some of them are too high then you have a real
problem." Lucky me! I also mention extension wing problem. He says
he will send another.

10. Ten days later, UPS man comes with extension wing. The box is
completely shredded and it is obvious that somewhere along the line,
the extension has exited the box and landed on a corner against a hard
object. Unless Delta sends somebody out to retrieve this one, I now
have a heavy-duty surface plate of questionable accuracy.

End of old story.

The saw works fine. I'm using my old Freud blade. Tried a super-duper
Forrest WW-II and it shook the saw apart. I know it was just a bad
one, but it went back for good. The fence is a dream, although there
is a slight dip in the laminate facing. I also got the Delta splitter
and did away with the blade guard. See:

http://www.inthewoodshop.org/reviews/splitter.shtml

This doesn't come with instructions and has to be tweaked depending on
which tilt you get. Makes an interesting mental quiz.

There you have it.

Wes

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
news
On 1 Feb 2005 19:05:33 -0800, "Darrell" wrote:

Yes, I got the Delta base and it's worked out fine for me. It seems
to me that there were some assembly order problems, but I don't
remember exactly what they were, so I guess they weren't a big deal.
Just a few long-forgotten swear words [g]. The saw moves around
easily and even in my somewhat cramped space I can "park it" nicely.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond with some good notes about
your experience.
I have to say you really have me concerned about my decision to buy the
Delta. Many will say go with the Uni over the imports for the Delta quality
and support. But gee!!!!. For my $1450 I'm expecting a good top, wing and
fence. I'm not expecting a perfect saw, but I sure am expecting good fit
and finish from the top and wing.

Did you get the extension for the mobile base as well? Is it needed?
--
Darrell

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:04:25 -0600, "Darrell Dorsey"
wrote:

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message
news
On 1 Feb 2005 19:05:33 -0800, "Darrell" wrote:

Yes, I got the Delta base and it's worked out fine for me. It seems
to me that there were some assembly order problems, but I don't
remember exactly what they were, so I guess they weren't a big deal.
Just a few long-forgotten swear words [g]. The saw moves around
easily and even in my somewhat cramped space I can "park it" nicely.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond with some good notes about
your experience.

Not a problem. I had most of it already typed up...just never posted.


I have to say you really have me concerned about my decision to buy the
Delta. Many will say go with the Uni over the imports for the Delta quality
and support. But gee!!!!. For my $1450 I'm expecting a good top, wing and
fence. I'm not expecting a perfect saw, but I sure am expecting good fit
and finish from the top and wing.

Part of my unpublished tale that I left out earlier was:

"In other threads I railed against what I perceived as lousy quality
control and the fact (in my mind) that manufactures didn't sell saws,
they sold saw kits; a bunch of parts that needed to be finished by the
sucker-err---buyer, to complete the construction. I gotta a lot of
flack over that one so without further ado or editorial comment
follows the ongoing story of the Delta Unisaw…"

I stand by those remarks. No matter what you buy, you will get to
finish the product, if my research is any indication. The one ace in
the hole for me was that I bought locally from Woodcraft and they
promised I could bring it back anytime during the first year. I had
to pay sales tax, but Amazon wouldn't offer me this deal. If you have
a local dealer, keep your city green would be my major piece of
advice.

It's easy to wax poetic about these things, but consider what you're
really buying. You're buying a steel box with a motor inside and a
slab of cast iron on top. It is a "tool" used to cut wood (and if my
"shop" is typical, to serve as an extra horizontal work and storage
surface). There are pros and cons to all of them, so make a decision,
buy one, never look back and have fun cutting wood.


Did you get the extension for the mobile base as well?

Yes

Is it needed?

Yes. The right side table (laminate) is supported by a pair of legs.
These in turn are supported by the extension.

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
nk.net...

If you really need 30" over the various 25-26" Grizzly fences simply order
a 52" fence and cut the rails off... The steel is soft and a good hacksaw,
and mill file to deburr, would handle the job.

John

Thanks John for the suggestion. The Grizzly 52" version sells for approx.
$1,380 (with shipping), then I have to cut it up. I can get the Delta for
$1,450 (and maybe a little cheaper with a 5% first time buyer discount from
WW supply) and free shipping. If a Delta is all the people say, then I
might as well spend the extra $100 and get a Delta. I have nothing in
against the Grizzly. I have a nice 8" Grizzly jointer. The jointer is
wonderful and met my needs.

Also, I'm, not sure I really need the 30" fence. I know I've made many
cuts that pushed the limits of the 30" fence. I'm thinking that I would
miss it. Going with 26" seems to going in the wrong direction.

Darrell

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message Yes, I got the Delta
base and it's worked out was:

Did you get the extension for the mobile base as well?

Yes

Is it needed?

Yes. The right side table (laminate) is supported by a pair of legs.
These in turn are supported by the extension.

Thanks again, the reason I asked it that my Jet has a right cast iron wing
and a small table board, but no legs.

Darrell

"Darrell Dorsey" wrote in message
ervers.com...
"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
nk.net...

If you really need 30" over the various 25-26" Grizzly fences simply
order a 52" fence and cut the rails off... The steel is soft and a good
hacksaw, and mill file to deburr, would handle the job.

John

Thanks John for the suggestion. The Grizzly 52" version sells for approx.
$1,380 (with shipping), then I have to cut it up. I can get the Delta for
$1,450 (and maybe a little cheaper with a 5% first time buyer discount
from WW supply) and free shipping. If a Delta is all the people say, then
I might as well spend the extra $100 and get a Delta. I have nothing in
against the Grizzly. I have a nice 8" Grizzly jointer. The jointer is
wonderful and met my needs.

Also, I'm, not sure I really need the 30" fence. I know I've made many
cuts that pushed the limits of the 30" fence. I'm thinking that I would
miss it. Going with 26" seems to going in the wrong direction.

Darrell

I struggled with this same issue. I had a Jet Contractor saw with 30" xacta
fence and fought with sheets goods a number a times. When I got the Jet
Cabinet saw it had the 50" xacta fence. I was going to cut the rails down to
maybe 40" as I didn't think I had the room for the longer fence. However,
before doing anything rash, I set the saw up with the long rails and put it
on a Delta mobile base to see how it worked out. It's been like that for a
year now and I don't intend to change it. Only once in that year did I have
trouble getting something past the saw -- two days ago in fact -- and I
simply lifted the cabinet over the saw. I can always swing the saw 90
degrees if I have to get something past it that is too heavy to lift over
it.

With the dilemma you have, for $100 I'd go with the Delta. Of course you
could take my approach and spend the $100 on a mobile base and leave the
fence alone. ;-)

John

I struggled with this same issue. I had a Jet Contractor saw with 30" xacta
fence and fought with sheets goods a number a times. When I got the Jet
Cabinet saw it had the 50" xacta fence. I was going to cut the rails down to
maybe 40" as I didn't think I had the room for the longer fence. However,
before doing anything rash, I set the saw up with the long rails and put it
on a Delta mobile base to see how it worked out. It's been like that for a
year now and I don't intend to change it. Only once in that year did I have
trouble getting something past the saw -- two days ago in fact -- and I
simply lifted the cabinet over the saw. I can always swing the saw 90
degrees if I have to get something past it that is too heavy to lift over
it.

With the dilemma you have, for $100 I'd go with the Delta. Of course you
could take my approach and spend the $100 on a mobile base and leave the
fence alone. ;-)

John

======================
I installed the rails offset about a foot to the left on my Jet...just
to get a little extra room to the right of the saw...in my smallish
shop..
Did this 15 years ago and while I "only" have about 40 couple of
inches for a rip on the right of the blade I have close to 20 on the
left... Works for me....

Bob Griffiths