Hi Charles,

I took the liberty of looking over some of the HTML on your site.
I write web sites and pages by hand, so I though I would offer you a
few suggestions based on my meager experience.

You are using layers (DIV tags) in your pages. Unfortunately, these
use fixed locations, and different fonts will cause the problems you
are seeing on certain browsers. As the fonts scale up and down,
taking varying amounts of real-estate on the screen, the Layers stay
stationary, fixed at a certain percentage or pixels from the top and
left side.

If you plan on doing this frequently, you might consider buying
Macromedia Dreamweaver. I would avoid Front Page like the plague,
although it is better than it used to be. From the looks of the code
you are creating with SiteBuilder, I would lose it as well. g

This is what I see on a box stock Windows install:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/cs_page1.jpg

This is what I see on a stock Firefox install:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/cs_page2.jpg

I would sit down with a piece of paper and come up with a layout that
suits you, and translate it into Tables, and avoid the use of Layers
entirely. Think about press layout/markups. Think Columns and Rows.

Use fonts that are present as native or substitutes on Macs, PCs,
Windoze and Unix systems. The fonts you are using are going to give
you fits! Fonts are often sold for print use, bundled with desktop
publishing and word processing programs, and are generally
copyrighted, so the fonts you have may not be on another's system.

Not trying to be a smart-ass, only to help.

FWIW,


Greg G.

Greg G. said:

Hi Charles,

I took the liberty of looking over some of the HTML on your site.
I write web sites and pages by hand, so I though I would offer you a
few suggestions based on my meager experience.

Download this file and look at one way tables may be done: (nested)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/CS_Hardwood.exe

(Self-Extracting EXE file - simply point it to a destination on your
drive. This is so your browser will download it instead of opening
it. The picture links should work if you upload it to your site.)

Grab the browser window and drag it wider and narrower and watch the
way the different sections adapt to changing widths. Everyone doesn't
run the same screen resolution as your layout machine, so take this
under consideration as well.

Keep in mind I didn't take time to format this stuff, but the way you
are approaching this is simply WAY too complicated and inconsistent to
work with all browsers. It's a nightmare out there...

I know you are attempting to achieve a specific layout, but
unfortunately the web is not a desktop publishing program.
Your Sitebilder generated code is filled with thousands of unneeded
font tags and non-breaking spaces and soft-spaces and DIVs and....

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Greg G. said:

Hi Charles,

I took the liberty of looking over some of the HTML on your site.
I write web sites and pages by hand, so I though I would offer you a
few suggestions based on my meager experience.

Download this file and look at one way tables may be done: (nested)

http://www.thevideodoc.com/CS_Hardwood.exe

(Self-Extracting EXE file - simply point it to a destination on your
drive. This is so your browser will download it instead of opening
it. The picture links should work if you upload it to your site.)

Grab the browser window and drag it wider and narrower and watch the
way the different sections adapt to changing widths. Everyone doesn't
run the same screen resolution as your layout machine, so take this
under consideration as well.

Keep in mind I didn't take time to format this stuff, but the way you
are approaching this is simply WAY too complicated and inconsistent to
work with all browsers. It's a nightmare out there...

I know you are attempting to achieve a specific layout, but
unfortunately the web is not a desktop publishing program.
Your Sitebilder generated code is filled with thousands of unneeded
font tags and non-breaking spaces and soft-spaces and DIVs and....

Thanks, Greg, but whatever it was, when I downloaded and hit the extract
button, it all disappeared.

I'm going to change some of the headers to images later today...but I'm not
sure I want to get involved with Dreamweaver, or other programs that cost
that much.

I've worked with HTML in the past, and, truthfully, I can't really deal with
the boredom. I do have...if I can recall the name...NoteTab or some such
already on my hard drive, so I'll try to look at the site with that later
on. It may be possible to clean it up that way.

It does seem as if each and every fast and easy web site program either
costs a small fortune or adds a lot of debris.

In article ,
Greg wrote:

Not trying to be a smart-ass, only to help.



I have discovered that proper tools for proper jobs are required in all fields.
I spent a year's worth of 'a couple-of-hours-a-day' messing with all kinds of
web design kits.
I finally borrowed a copy of Adobe GoLive...2 weeks later I bought it as the one
I evaluated had been superceded by 2 versions.
It helped to read the manual in order to get the text scaling and auto
justifying (with hyphenation *g*) etc. happening.

A lot of time was spent on previewing and resolving the gamma conflicts.

The site has been rock solid and updates are a snap.

I don't work for Adobe, just a happy Go-Live customer.

Rob

Charles Self said:

Greg G. said:

Grab the browser window and drag it wider and narrower and watch the
way the different sections adapt to changing widths. Everyone doesn't
run the same screen resolution as your layout machine, so take this
under consideration as well.

Keep in mind I didn't take time to format this stuff, but the way you
are approaching this is simply WAY too complicated and inconsistent to
work with all browsers. It's a nightmare out there...

I know you are attempting to achieve a specific layout, but
unfortunately the web is not a desktop publishing program.
Your Sitebilder generated code is filled with thousands of unneeded
font tags and non-breaking spaces and soft-spaces and DIVs and....


Thanks, Greg, but whatever it was, when I downloaded and hit the extract
button, it all disappeared.

XP Firewall probably ate it... ;-)

I'm going to change some of the headers to images later today...but I'm not
sure I want to get involved with Dreamweaver, or other programs that cost
that much.

Sorry, I haven't priced DW it in a while, but it does generate clean
code that is easier to modify by hand, and by other programs. I use
it, but it's an older version. It is the only program that created
code clean enough for me to abandon the use of hand coded pages...
I do web sites in HTML, ASP, etc. as a supporting service to our
relational data-base customers, and is a part of our income.

And while I don't care for some of the designs and color schemes
customers chose - hey, they're payin for it, not me. ;-)

I've worked with HTML in the past, and, truthfully, I can't really deal with
the boredom. I do have...if I can recall the name...NoteTab or some such
already on my hard drive, so I'll try to look at the site with that later
on. It may be possible to clean it up that way.

Yes, HTML editing is boring - especially on large scale projects.
You could create a template and use it for all your other/new pages.
NotePad comes with Windoze, and can be used to edit manually.
DO NOT, however, use WordPad - it will make a mess of things.

It does seem as if each and every fast and easy web site program either
costs a small fortune or adds a lot of debris.

Welcome to the wonderful (NOT) world of HTML and cross browser
incompatibilities... ;-)

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do... Sorry I butted in.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Charles Self said:

Greg G. said:

Grab the browser window and drag it wider and narrower and watch the
way the different sections adapt to changing widths. Everyone doesn't
run the same screen resolution as your layout machine, so take this
under consideration as well.

Keep in mind I didn't take time to format this stuff, but the way you
are approaching this is simply WAY too complicated and inconsistent to
work with all browsers. It's a nightmare out there...

I know you are attempting to achieve a specific layout, but
unfortunately the web is not a desktop publishing program.
Your Sitebilder generated code is filled with thousands of unneeded
font tags and non-breaking spaces and soft-spaces and DIVs and....


Thanks, Greg, but whatever it was, when I downloaded and hit the extract
button, it all disappeared.

XP Firewall probably ate it... ;-)

I'm going to change some of the headers to images later today...but I'm
not
sure I want to get involved with Dreamweaver, or other programs that cost
that much.

Sorry, I haven't priced DW it in a while, but it does generate clean
code that is easier to modify by hand, and by other programs. I use
it, but it's an older version. It is the only program that created
code clean enough for me to abandon the use of hand coded pages...
I do web sites in HTML, ASP, etc. as a supporting service to our
relational data-base customers, and is a part of our income.

And while I don't care for some of the designs and color schemes
customers chose - hey, they're payin for it, not me. ;-)

I've worked with HTML in the past, and, truthfully, I can't really deal
with
the boredom. I do have...if I can recall the name...NoteTab or some such
already on my hard drive, so I'll try to look at the site with that later
on. It may be possible to clean it up that way.

Yes, HTML editing is boring - especially on large scale projects.
You could create a template and use it for all your other/new pages.
NotePad comes with Windoze, and can be used to edit manually.
DO NOT, however, use WordPad - it will make a mess of things.

It does seem as if each and every fast and easy web site program either
costs a small fortune or adds a lot of debris.

Welcome to the wonderful (NOT) world of HTML and cross browser
incompatibilities... ;-)

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do... Sorry I butted in.

Suggestions always welcome. Which doesn't mean they're always taken, of
course.

Checked Amazon: Dreamweaver is $399. Ouch. That would almost buy the new
lens I want (almost, minus $399--the lens is about $799).

Checked Amazon: Dreamweaver is $399. Ouch. That would almost buy the
new
lens I want (almost, minus $399--the lens is about $799).

You can find a copy on ebay lots cheaper.

Charles Self said:

Greg G. said:

Welcome to the wonderful (NOT) world of HTML and cross browser
incompatibilities... ;-)

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do... Sorry I butted in.

Suggestions always welcome. Which doesn't mean they're always taken, of
course.

Checked Amazon: Dreamweaver is $399. Ouch. That would almost buy the new
lens I want (almost, minus $399--the lens is about $799).

And here is the _really_ sad part - in 10 years, that lens will still
be worth near that much or more - the software will be valueless.

I don't blame you a bit for not wanting spend that much money on
software for a single site. They all ultimately generate HTML code in
the end. But do keep my suggestions about fonts, style sheets, and
absolute positioned layers (DIVs) in mind - with whatever software you
chose.

I am, at this moment, sitting amidst a crop of computers, including
Win9x, Win2000, XP and Server, plus a couple of Linux boxes - simply
for compatibility testing... No one said it was an easy job... ;-)


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Charles Self said:

Greg G. said:

Welcome to the wonderful (NOT) world of HTML and cross browser
incompatibilities... ;-)

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do... Sorry I butted in.

Suggestions always welcome. Which doesn't mean they're always taken, of
course.

Checked Amazon: Dreamweaver is $399. Ouch. That would almost buy the new
lens I want (almost, minus $399--the lens is about $799).

And here is the _really_ sad part - in 10 years, that lens will still
be worth near that much or more - the software will be valueless.

I don't blame you a bit for not wanting spend that much money on
software for a single site. They all ultimately generate HTML code in
the end. But do keep my suggestions about fonts, style sheets, and
absolute positioned layers (DIVs) in mind - with whatever software you
chose.

I am, at this moment, sitting amidst a crop of computers, including
Win9x, Win2000, XP and Server, plus a couple of Linux boxes - simply
for compatibility testing... No one said it was an easy job... ;-)

I intend to keep much of what I've learned in mind, even if I don't, or
can't, implement it at the moment. Playing with a web site that MAY be the
source of future earnings is fun, but one does have to lean down, grab the
traps and haul the sled of current earnings along, too. Which is what I need
to do for at least 80 hours next week, some of which I'm looking forward to
greatly. Some, well...

A lot of the problem with what shows up on SiteBuilder may be in how I'm
using it, too. I kind of jumped in fast, and I find as I go along, there are
more functions and features than I expected. Not as many as I had hoped, but
still more than I can use at the moment.

I have four--no, five, my old, old, old Mac is buried under boxes in a
basement corner--computers here. That's enough. One is unstable, either a
bad hard drive or power supply, the laptop is a sumbitch with a ****ant
keyboard, and the other two are fine. Maybe my 19" Viewsonic monitor is part
of the problem, though. Bright, accurate, semi-color corrected (colors match
prints).

Next monitor change will bring a 20" or larger LCD. My wife's machine
(actually, my back-up machine, but let's not tell her) has a 17" LCD that is
wonderful, if not exactly like this one. Durned near as much viewing area as
the 19" CRT, too.

Charles Self said:

I intend to keep much of what I've learned in mind, even if I don't, or
can't, implement it at the moment. Playing with a web site that MAY be the
source of future earnings is fun, but one does have to lean down, grab the
traps and haul the sled of current earnings along, too. Which is what I need
to do for at least 80 hours next week, some of which I'm looking forward to
greatly. Some, well...

Understood. I'm not fully up to speed on the W3 standards myself -
there simply isn't time for one human to digest all the changing
technologies that exist in the computer world. It gives me a
migraine.

A lot of the problem with what shows up on SiteBuilder may be in how I'm
using it, too. I kind of jumped in fast, and I find as I go along, there are
more functions and features than I expected. Not as many as I had hoped, but
still more than I can use at the moment.

That's how you learn. Or how I learn anyway...
Play with it a bit, then read some of the documentation so that you
now know what the hell they are talking about... g
And it's still an excruciatingly dry read...
Then play with it some more. Don't paint yourself into a corner while
trying to stick with one method - but consider your options and be
flexible. JMHO.

I have four--no, five, my old, old, old Mac is buried under boxes in a
basement corner--computers here. That's enough. One is unstable, either a
bad hard drive or power supply, the laptop is a sumbitch with a ****ant
keyboard, and the other two are fine. Maybe my 19" Viewsonic monitor is part
of the problem, though. Bright, accurate, semi-color corrected (colors match
prints).

I use a Viewsonic 2182PS - they call it a 21" but it measures more
like 19.5" diag. Huge freaking thing that eats up 3 square feet of
desk space. But my aging eyes plus multiple concurrent screen
displays make it a necessity. And, yeah, it sure looks pretty... g
I use a KVM switch to select between the four computers that _may_ be
in use at any given time.

But monitors sold for $199 or bundled with systems are notoriously bad
at color correction. Pantone color charts don't quite pan out...
Odd thing is, if they would take the time to provide a color
correction INF with the monitor, some of it could be dealt with in
software. It won't correct for sweep non-linearity and poor RGB
tracking, but you can get the color and luminosity levels a lot closer
than they are out of the box.

Next monitor change will bring a 20" or larger LCD. My wife's machine
(actually, my back-up machine, but let's not tell her) has a 17" LCD that is
wonderful, if not exactly like this one. Durned near as much viewing area as
the 19" CRT, too.

I've never warmed up to LCDs. The originals were horrible, and the
off-angle viewing is poor on all. Other than sweep linearity issues,
I still think CRT's look better than even the new units. Of course,
they weigh a fraction, and have a much smaller footprint.
Everything's a compromise, eh?

FWIW,

Greg G.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:29:34 -0500, Greg wrote:

I've worked with HTML in the past, and, truthfully, I can't really deal with
the boredom. I do have...if I can recall the name...NoteTab or some such
already on my hard drive, so I'll try to look at the site with that later
on. It may be possible to clean it up that way.

You could create a template and use it for all your other/new pages.
NotePad comes with Windoze, and can be used to edit manually.
DO NOT, however, use WordPad - it will make a mess of things.

I agree with that. I wouldn't even use NotePad. It has some
surprisingly severe limitations that aren't apparent if you're just
writing 2 and 3K documents. There's a NotePad+ freeware substitute out
in networld somewhere that's installed as a substitute on every
computer I get my hands on. Far, far better than the native NotePad.

However, I now use EditPad Lite and it's almost everything I've wanted
in a text editor used for HTML coding.

I've downloaded probably four other editors, too, but I was already
ingrained with EditPad when I did, so didn't feel the overwhelming
urge to wring any of them out.

I, too, hand code all of my HTML. Obviously I maintain my own site
(below), but I also maintain ShopTours.org, and I code articles in the
Articles section at WoodCentral as well.

On my site, I have two or three templates that I use for most of the
various functions, so the 500+ files on site don't necessarily mean I
hand wrote every line of code for each. I mean I did, but the vast
majority of it was cut-and-paste of my original work.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

LRod said:

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:29:34 -0500, Greg wrote:

I've worked with HTML in the past, and, truthfully, I can't really deal with
the boredom. I do have...if I can recall the name...NoteTab or some such
already on my hard drive, so I'll try to look at the site with that later
on. It may be possible to clean it up that way.

You could create a template and use it for all your other/new pages.
NotePad comes with Windoze, and can be used to edit manually.
DO NOT, however, use WordPad - it will make a mess of things.

I agree with that. I wouldn't even use NotePad. It has some
surprisingly severe limitations that aren't apparent if you're just
writing 2 and 3K documents. There's a NotePad+ freeware substitute out
in networld somewhere that's installed as a substitute on every
computer I get my hands on. Far, far better than the native NotePad.

Never claimed to _use_NotePad, only suggesting it as a possible
solution. I use UltraEdit, and back in the good-old DOS days, used
Qedit by Semware - which was then a local company.

However, I now use EditPad Lite and it's almost everything I've wanted
in a text editor used for HTML coding.

Haven't use that one - but there are literally thousands...

I've downloaded probably four other editors, too, but I was already
ingrained with EditPad when I did, so didn't feel the overwhelming
urge to wring any of them out.

Here is a scary though... It took me forever to break the habit of
the using WordStar conventions while typing. CTL-K, D etc. I
absolutely despise(d) Windoze - although less so as they began to
include hot keys for common operations.

I, too, hand code all of my HTML. Obviously I maintain my own site
(below), but I also maintain ShopTours.org, and I code articles in the
Articles section at WoodCentral as well.

I don't have the time to code by hand anymore, and use DW for initial
layout, but still tweak by hand. I haven't updated my bloated, ADD*
personal site since 2000. It was the first site I wrote, way back in
1998, and consisted of various experiments grafted together into one
big, offensive mess. There are more graphics, JAVA applets, eye-candy
and animated GIFs than should be allowed by law. ;-)

Maybe I'll fix it one day...

On my site, I have two or three templates that I use for most of the
various functions, so the 500+ files on site don't necessarily mean I
hand wrote every line of code for each. I mean I did, but the vast
majority of it was cut-and-paste of my original work.

The gist of my original site was a JavaScript Engine that pulled pages
into a framed screen - similar to pressing buttons on a TV and
receiving different channels. There is a JAVA applet in the top
frame, a music player frame, a static navigation frame, and all the
_other_ things a good designer avoids. But the actual pages were
nothing but content, and were boiler-plated. So it made updates and
additions a snap to perform.

Since I have since decided that television and most other things
electronic are the devils spawn, I should update it to CSS (which did
not functionally exist at that time) and be done with it.

Believe me, none of my customers have been burdened by such an
atrocity... ;-)

*Attention Deficit disorder...


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

You are using layers (DIV tags) in your pages. Unfortunately, these
use fixed locations, and different fonts will cause the problems you
are seeing on certain browsers. As the fonts scale up and down,
taking varying amounts of real-estate on the screen, the Layers stay
stationary, fixed at a certain percentage or pixels from the top and
left side.


Layers are what you should be using now that CSS support has matured in
all browsers. CSS support is not perfect in all browsers, but I have
found that it is adequate to do what I want for my personal website. You
can specify if a layer has a fixed or variable size, and you can specify
if it's location is fixed or dynamic.

I would sit down with a piece of paper and come up with a layout that
suits you, and translate it into Tables, and avoid the use of Layers
entirely. Think about press layout/markups. Think Columns and Rows.

I have to disagree with designing page layout based on tables. This
restricts your page layout to be only what you can accomplish with table
tags. You should only use tables when you need to present data in a
table fashion, but do not design your entire page around tables.
However, if you don't want to use CSS, then you can use tables for page
layout. However, using tables over CSS for page layout is analogous to
driving a riding lawn mower to work instead of using a car. Both get you
there, but one of them does a much better job.

Use fonts that are present as native or substitutes on Macs, PCs,
Windoze and Unix systems.

This is important, as not everyone can see fonts that you may have
installed on your computer.

Take a look at my site.

The big advantage of CSS is being able to restructure your site without
modifying HTML code. My site has a header at the top, links on the left,
and content on the right. If I decided to put the links on the right and
remove the header, I can do this for every page on my website just by
editing 1 css file.

If you want to get a feel for how powerful CSS is, visit
http://www.csszengarden.com
Look at the various pages that people have submitted to see how the
layouts change by only modifying the 1 CSS file. People do create lots
of images that are defined in the CSS files to achieve their own look.

--
Brad Curfman
http://www.curfman.net

Brad Curfman wrote:
Greg G. wrote:

If you want to get a feel for how powerful CSS is, visit
http://www.csszengarden.com


I just went back to the previous thread on your site and saw that Dave
already pointed you to this site. When I first stumbled upon this CSS
goldmine, I spent a few hours learning basic CSS. Most of my learning
came by modifying the css file to see the effect.

I understand that not everyone wants to take the time to learn something
new, but if you're serious about layout on your site, you really need to
use CSS.

Nvu is a free WYSIWYG HTML editor with CSS support. It isn't as polished
as Dreamweaver or Frontpage, but it is free.

I only use a text editor with syntax coloring (TextPad) for modifying my
site. I've been writing HTML for over 10 years now, and know enough for
what I need to use. I know enough CSS that I can write it without a CSS
editor, but I do consult CSS references for help when doing something new.

I'm not one of those people who brag about using a text editor and mock
those who use tools such as Dreamweaver. For the amount of HTML
authoring I do, those tools aren't necessary. I used Dreamweaver when
building a website for one of my clients a few years back and loved it -
especially the template feature. Now, all of the web application
development I do for clients is back end Java stuff, so the only UI work
I get to do now is my personal site.

--
Brad Curfman
http://www.curfman.net

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:32:41 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

I agree with that. I wouldn't even use NotePad. It has some surprisingly
severe limitations that aren't apparent if you're just writing 2 and 3K
documents. There's a NotePad+ freeware substitute out in networld
somewhere that's installed as a substitute on every computer I get my
hands on. Far, far better than the native NotePad.

Never claimed to _use_NotePad, only suggesting it as a possible solution.
I use UltraEdit, and back in the good-old DOS days, used Qedit by Semware
- which was then a local company.

There's always vi.

Brad Curfman said:

Greg G. wrote:

You are using layers (DIV tags) in your pages. Unfortunately, these
use fixed locations, and different fonts will cause the problems you
are seeing on certain browsers. As the fonts scale up and down,
taking varying amounts of real-estate on the screen, the Layers stay
stationary, fixed at a certain percentage or pixels from the top and
left side.

Layers are what you should be using now that CSS support has matured in
all browsers. CSS support is not perfect in all browsers, but I have
found that it is adequate to do what I want for my personal website. You
can specify if a layer has a fixed or variable size, and you can specify
if it's location is fixed or dynamic.

It wasn't clear, but I meant explicitly positioned layers.
i.e. - top = 50 left = 35
It's been a problem here, but only when font sizes change due to bad
equivalencies or user configuration.

FWIW,

Greg G.

Larry Blanchard said:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:32:41 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

I agree with that. I wouldn't even use NotePad. It has some surprisingly
severe limitations that aren't apparent if you're just writing 2 and 3K
documents. There's a NotePad+ freeware substitute out in networld
somewhere that's installed as a substitute on every computer I get my
hands on. Far, far better than the native NotePad.

Never claimed to _use_NotePad, only suggesting it as a possible solution.
I use UltraEdit, and back in the good-old DOS days, used Qedit by Semware
- which was then a local company.

There's always vi.

Ah, yes. But I have to write this stuff on Windoze, not *nix.
We are MVPs~ for SQL and Access DB stuff.
While there is WinVi, it's spotty and doesn't provide hex editing.
And I refuse to use an editor named Elvis... ;-)



~ = A pointless, misleading title that actually means nothing...


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Larry Blanchard said:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:32:41 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

I agree with that. I wouldn't even use NotePad. It has some surprisingly
severe limitations that aren't apparent if you're just writing 2 and 3K
documents. There's a NotePad+ freeware substitute out in networld
somewhere that's installed as a substitute on every computer I get my
hands on. Far, far better than the native NotePad.

Never claimed to _use_NotePad, only suggesting it as a possible
solution.
I use UltraEdit, and back in the good-old DOS days, used Qedit by
Semware
- which was then a local company.

There's always vi.

Ah, yes. But I have to write this stuff on Windoze, not *nix.
We are MVPs~ for SQL and Access DB stuff.
While there is WinVi, it's spotty and doesn't provide hex editing.
And I refuse to use an editor named Elvis... ;-)


I'm not sure where Note Pad came from in the discussion. I mentioned, or
meant to, a low priced program I bought about three years ago, called Note
Tab Pro. It's actually pretty easy to use, but, IIRC (haven't used it in a
couple years) is one helluva long ways from WSIWYG unless you have broadband
or a lot more patience than I was born with.

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:40:27 -0500, Greg G wrote:
Larry Blanchard said:

There's always vi.

Ah, yes. But I have to write this stuff on Windoze, not *nix.
We are MVPs~ for SQL and Access DB stuff.

You could use,

While there is WinVi, it's spotty and doesn't provide hex editing.
And I refuse to use an editor named Elvis... ;-)

Ah, nevermind. Elvis has, in fact, left the building.

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:40:27 -0500, Greg G. wrote:

There's always vi.

Ah, yes. But I have to write this stuff on Windoze, not *nix. We are
MVPs~ for SQL and Access DB stuff. While there is WinVi, it's spotty and
doesn't provide hex editing. And I refuse to use an editor named Elvis...
;-)

I'd forgotten that one. There was a vim for Windiws, IIRC - or to be
acurae, for a DOS in a window :-).

I'd meant the vi reference more or less as a joke, but it really is a lot
more powerful than a lot of folks realize. The problem is leaning all
hose esoteric command sequences :-).

Greg G. wrote:

and back in the good-old DOS days, used Qedit by Semware - which was
then a local company.

It is still a local company. We started out in Smyrna, moved to
Kennesaw, moved to Marietta, and then moved back to Kennesaw. All in
Georgia :-)

--
Sam Mitchell
semware.com

said:

Greg G. wrote:

and back in the good-old DOS days, used Qedit by Semware - which was
then a local company.

It is still a local company. We started out in Smyrna, moved to
Kennesaw, moved to Marietta, and then moved back to Kennesaw. All in
Georgia :-)

I wasn't aware you guys were still around. I really loved QEdit -
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.

I lived less than 5 miles from your place in Marietta back in the late
80's. Lived in Florida from 1992-2000, then moved back to Georgia
after a brief stint in NJ.

How do you like the traffic these days... ugghh....


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

I wasn't aware you guys were still around.**I*really*loved*QEdit*-
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.

I remember that one too. But my favorite was the full C compiler (no,
not a subset) that ran on the Z80. Others had said it couldn't be
done. Came on 2 (IIRC) 8" floppies. I wish I could remember the
company name, but my memory is getting old along with the rest of me.

And my favorite computer error message was from a Fortran compiler
written for the GE400 computers by Charley ... (damn memory). The
message was:

"The compiler has gotten lost - there are a myriad of possible reasons."

Still makes me chuckle :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard wrote:
Greg G. wrote:


I wasn't aware you guys were still around. I really loved QEdit -
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.



I remember that one too. But my favorite was the full C compiler (no,
not a subset) that ran on the Z80. Others had said it couldn't be
done. Came on 2 (IIRC) 8" floppies. I wish I could remember the
company name, but my memory is getting old along with the rest of me.

Now you've ticked me off cause I should remember. Now I'm gonna be
trying to remember for days. :-(

I presume this was for CP/M -- cause I do remember something -- and I
don't mean Microsoft who was doing their Commercial BASIC as I recall.

Maybe we should give a free Dynabyte System to the person who remembers...

And my favorite computer error message was from a Fortran compiler
written for the GE400 computers by Charley ... (damn memory). The
message was:

"The compiler has gotten lost - there are a myriad of possible reasons."

Still makes me chuckle :-).

Never saw that one -- must have been a better FORTRAN programmer than I
thought I was. :-)





--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.” George Bernard Shaw

On 12/20/2005 9:22 PM WillR mumbled something about the following:
Larry Blanchard wrote:
Greg G. wrote:


I wasn't aware you guys were still around. I really loved QEdit -
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.



I remember that one too. But my favorite was the full C compiler (no,
not a subset) that ran on the Z80. Others had said it couldn't be
done. Came on 2 (IIRC) 8" floppies. I wish I could remember the
company name, but my memory is getting old along with the rest of me.

Now you've ticked me off cause I should remember. Now I'm gonna be
trying to remember for days. :-(

I presume this was for CP/M -- cause I do remember something -- and I
don't mean Microsoft who was doing their Commercial BASIC as I recall.

Maybe we should give a free Dynabyte System to the person who remembers...

And my favorite computer error message was from a Fortran compiler
written for the GE400 computers by Charley ... (damn memory). The
message was:

"The compiler has gotten lost - there are a myriad of possible reasons."

Still makes me chuckle :-).

Never saw that one -- must have been a better FORTRAN programmer than I
thought I was. :-)

BDS C is the only one I can remember. Targeted at the CP/M-80 systems
(Z80 and Intel 8080)

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:22:33 -0800, Larry Blanchard
wrote:

Greg G. wrote:

I wasn't aware you guys were still around.**I*really*loved*QEdit*-
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.

I remember that one too. But my favorite was the full C compiler (no,
not a subset) that ran on the Z80. Others had said it couldn't be
done. Came on 2 (IIRC) 8" floppies. I wish I could remember the
company name, but my memory is getting old along with the rest of me.

Was it Aztec or something like that?

I had a CP/M card on my Apple II+ with 80 column card and keyboard
enhancement (for that pesky upper and lower case stuff). No 8" drives,
though. A friend of mine who worked at Bell Labs was on me for a long
time to learn C. I somehow wound up with a C compiler, and I think I
might have actually ran it once, but I was a long ways from trying C
out in those days. Still am, frankly, but I don't have need for it
now. You know, those who can, do, those who can't...well, I can't even
do that.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:22:04 -0500, WillR wrote:

Now you've ticked me off cause I should remember. Now I'm gonna be
trying to remember for days. :-(

I presume this was for CP/M -- cause I do remember something -- and I
don't mean Microsoft who was doing their Commercial BASIC as I recall.

Maybe we should give a free Dynabyte System to the person who remembers...

And my favorite computer error message was from a Fortran compiler
written for the GE400 computers by Charley ... (damn memory). The
message was:

"The compiler has gotten lost - there are a myriad of possible reasons."

Still makes me chuckle :-).

Never saw that one -- must have been a better FORTRAN programmer than I
thought I was. :-)

learn to deal with it, Will.. it gets worse as ya get older...
Label it a "senior moment" and turn the page.. *g*



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:40:34 +0000, LRod wrote:

Was it Aztec or something like that?

I had a CP/M card on my Apple II+ with 80 column card and keyboard
enhancement (for that pesky upper and lower case stuff). No 8" drives,
though. A friend of mine who worked at Bell Labs was on me for a long
time to learn C. I somehow wound up with a C compiler, and I think I
might have actually ran it once, but I was a long ways from trying C
out in those days. Still am, frankly, but I don't have need for it
now. You know, those who can, do, those who can't...well, I can't even
do that.


Oh ****... now you're making me remember my $5,000 apple II+ system... that got
replaced later with a $1,000 846..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

WillR wrote:

I remember that one too.**But*my*favorite*was*the*full*C*compiler
(no, not a subset) that ran on the Z80.**Others*had*said*it*couldn't
be done.**Came*on*2*(IIRC)*8"*floppies.**I*wish*I*cou ld*remember*the
company name, but my memory is getting old along with the rest of me.

Now you've ticked me off cause I should remember. Now I'm gonna be
trying to remember for days. :-(

I presume this was for CP/M -- cause I do remember something -- and I
don't mean Microsoft who was doing their Commercial BASIC as I recall.

Maybe we should give a free Dynabyte System to the person who
remembers...

I remember! I remember! It was a company called Ecosoft - If you sent
them a bug report they'd fix it and send you an updated compiler with
your bug and others reported all fixed.

And yes it was CP/M.

Can I have an Ohio Scientific system instead?

--
Keep Saturn in Saturnalia

LRod wrote:


Was it Aztec or something like that?

Right! I finally remembered the company (Ecosoft) but not the compiler
name.

--
Keep Saturn in Saturnalia

Greg G. wrote:

I wasn't aware you guys were still around. I really loved QEdit -
especially the ability to write your own help, macros, and keyboard
maps, and then write them back into the EXE, resulting in one compact
executable to keep track of.

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes, rumors of our demise are greatly exaggerated :-) Actually, we
just celebrated our 20th anniversary this November.

How do you like the traffic these days... ugghh....

I know what you mean. And it just keeps getting worse. I avoid
Barrett Parkway (by Town Center) if at all possible.

--
Sam Mitchell

On 12/21/2005 5:53 PM Larry Blanchard mumbled something about the following:
LRod wrote:

Was it Aztec or something like that?

Right! I finally remembered the company (Ecosoft) but not the compiler
name.


Ecosoft was EXPENSIVE, and had a nasty habit of crashing while compiling
if you had a syntax error in your code instead of just reporting the
syntax error.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

said:

Greg G. wrote:

I wasn't aware you guys were still around. I really loved QEdit.

Thanks for the kind words.

Well deserved, considering the other options available at the time.
I learned WordStar as my first real word processor, and the keyboard
mapping allowed me to emulate it quite well. I despised WordPerfect
and those annoying, inconsistent function key mappings. While there
may have been a way around it, I never used it enough to find out.

The "Mark Column" feature was novel as well, as I recall (on the PC).
But that was a long time ago, and I was just a lad at the time. ;-)
We did computer maintenance primarily for local military installations
before the infamous suspicious fires and eminent domain acquisitions
of Bacon's Grand Vision for the city that National Geographic referred
to as the little redneck town on the outskirts of Atlanta.

BBS's and PC bridge software to ARPANET were the norm for us.
Ah, yes. I (barely) remember $450 300baud modems, Windows 1.0, the
GEM GUI, CP/M, $2,000 dollar 10 meg hard drives, IBM BIOS lawsuits,
FTL and Robert Voysteres, Heathkit, DRDOS, FIDOnet, the DEC Rainbow,
RHIME and PCRelay. Man, I feel old...

Worked as a contractor to IBM briefly, a laughable place replete with
college students in poorly-fitting polyester suits who did programming
support for obsolete System 34 consoles and the fumbling,
soon-to-be-released AS400 whose tape drives seemed destined to spill
magnetic media onto the floor with the least hint of provocation.
I hate suits - both kinds. ;-)

West Coast programmers got to wear shorts, T-shirts and beenie caps,
play with rubber chickens, and I'm forced to wear an uncomfortable
suit and tie while pulling floor tiles for a new network loom - for
far less money than I ever made in my life!

Cripes, I sound like a now-deceased grandfather...

Yes, rumors of our demise are greatly exaggerated :-) Actually, we
just celebrated our 20th anniversary this November.

Congratulations! I didn't mean to imply your demise, only that I
hadn't heard anything in a while.

I vacillate between regarding the computer as the source of many
modern evils and it being a useful tool for engineering use. After
investing time and energy into computer knowledge and then having it
rendered semi-obsolete within the span of a couple of years, I tend to
avoid anything new that is computer related if at all possible. ;-)

I took the opportunity to briefly look over your web site and the
features of TSE Pro. I like the idea of transparency - especially
when working with crowded, multiple source windows.

Unfortunately, much of the work I do uses VBA in Access, and the
editor, while much improved over Bill's _other_ Office excuses, is
integral to the program.

I still do some Assembly and C++ stuff - the latest being an in-house
replacement for the horrific JAVA based UPS software that came with
our American Power Conversion UPS units.

I installed that stuff, groaned in absolute disbelief, and axed it
immediately. After decoding the serial cable logic and peculiarities
of the UPS units themselves, I donned the LED port monitors and
proceeded to write my own Windoze Service, complete with a Control
Panel applet, and it's been smooth sailing on our 4 servers and
various workstations ever since - even through the infamous "Server
Won't Boot because of the aforementioned JAVA software license"
escapade of 8/16/2005. Never even noticed until the distraught
complaints started rolling in from dealers all over the US.
Unbelievable PITA!

How do you like the traffic these days... ugghh....

I know what you mean. And it just keeps getting worse. I avoid
Barrett Parkway (by Town Center) if at all possible.

I avoid _driving_ if at all possible! I go out in the daytime maybe
once a week, and tend to grit my teeth the whole time. I am one of
the few native born Atlanta residents left - most have fled, retiring
from successful businesses and leaving the commerce to the various
BORGS that seem destined to consume the world in a tsunami of
mediocrity and tacky strip malls. I-85N is no man's land, 400 is not
much better, and I-75N is just about to climax.

I used to work on Roswell Road in Sandy Springs and it is also quite a
different place these days. If it weren't for the Rockler Store, I
wouldn't go over there either. :-\

Glad to see you're still around, but just one more On-Topic question.
Do you actually engage in woodworking or did a WebSearch for "Semware"
call your attention to this newsgroup? IMWTK.

Well, I've rambled on for 15 minutes - long enough.
FWIW,

Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

I am one of the few native born Atlanta residents left - most have
fled, retiring

I know what you mean. When I worked for EREIM around Lenox (before
starting SemWare), my co-workers were amazed that I was from this
area, and had lived her all my life.

Glad to see you're still around, but just one more On-Topic question.
Do you actually engage in woodworking or did a WebSearch for
"Semware" call your attention to this newsgroup? IMWTK.

While I've built a (rickety) barn, a (wobbly) micro-wave stand, and
some (crooked) book-shelves, it was a google groups search that
brought me here. Sorry about that.

--
Sam Mitchell

said:

Greg G. wrote:

I am one of the few native born Atlanta residents left - most have
fled, retiring

I know what you mean. When I worked for EREIM around Lenox (before
starting SemWare), my co-workers were amazed that I was from this
area, and had lived her all my life.

I have a few other friends who remember when there was no I-285 or
Cumberland Mall, and vaguely recall the 688 club, but not many...

Glad to see you're still around, but just one more On-Topic question.
Do you actually engage in woodworking or did a WebSearch for
"Semware" call your attention to this newsgroup? IMWTK.

While I've built a (rickety) barn, a (wobbly) micro-wave stand, and
some (crooked) book-shelves, it was a google groups search that
brought me here. Sorry about that.

That's OK. Just curious.
Hang around, get out a crowbar for your wallet, and take up yet
another all consuming hobby. Then your stuff won't be as rickety,
wobbly, or crooked. ;-) It's really a lot of fun - mostly...

FWIW,

Greg G.

Odinn wrote:

Right!**I*finally*remembered*the*company*(Ecosoft) *but*not*the
compiler name.


Ecosoft was EXPENSIVE, and had a nasty habit of crashing while
compiling if you had a syntax error in your code instead of just
reporting the syntax error.

We're really getting into off-topic old, old history here, but I can't
resist one more comment.

You must have had an earlier version than I did. I remember Aztec C as
very reliable on my S100 buss CP/M system. I don't recall it being
expensive, but since I have no record of my purchase you may be right
there.

--
Keep Saturn in Saturnalia!

Greg G. wrote:

BBS's and PC bridge software to ARPANET were the norm for us.
Ah, yes.**I*(barely)*remember*$450*300baud*modems,*Win dows*1.0,*the
GEM GUI, CP/M, $2,000 dollar 10 meg hard drives, IBM BIOS lawsuits,
FTL and Robert Voysteres, Heathkit, DRDOS, FIDOnet, the DEC Rainbow,
RHIME and PCRelay.**Man,*I*feel*old...

Hah! When you start remembering Univac, Ramac, IBM650s, Readix, and
yes, plugboards, THEN you can feel old :-). I'm 68.

And I don't remember what I paid for my first 8" floppy drive, but I
remember it put a hole in my computing budget for a while :-).

--
Keep Saturn in Saturnalia!

wrote in news:1135267407.290682.124400
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

While I've built a (rickety) barn, a (wobbly) micro-wave stand, and
some (crooked) book-shelves, it was a google groups search that
brought me here. Sorry about that.

--
Sam Mitchell


Hey, that counts!

No need to apologize. There's a pretty large subset of tech-type wood-
dorkers in here.

--
Regards,

JT
Speaking only for myself....

Larry Blanchard said:

Greg G. wrote:

RHIME and PCRelay.**Man,*I*feel*old...

Hah! When you start remembering Univac, Ramac, IBM650s, Readix, and
yes, plugboards, THEN you can feel old :-). I'm 68.

I abdicate - that's a bit before my time.
I guess that makes you a superior old fart than I. ;-)

As a kid, I do remember buying surplus computer boards that had tiny
clip mounted vacuum tubes attached - but I never knew from equipment
what they originated. 1000 or so of these 12" x 9" boards would
functionally fit inside a 2mm x 2mm dot these days.

And I don't remember what I paid for my first 8" floppy drive, but I
remember it put a hole in my computing budget for a while :-).

As have many of my computer related purchases.
I still have some of it. Wanna see? ;-)


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:

I learned WordStar as my first real word processor, and the keyboard
mapping allowed me to emulate it quite well. I despised WordPerfect
and those annoying, inconsistent function key mappings. While there
may have been a way around it, I never used it enough to find out.


FYI: jstar, which comes with many Linux distros and is
on this account's FreeBSD system, is Joe Allen's joe
wordstar mode. Free. GPL

jstar(1): Joe's Own Editor - Linux man page
http://www.die.net/doc/linux/man/man1/jstar.1.html

Robert Sawyer's agrees with you on WordPerfect
WordStar: A Writer's Word Processor
URL: http://www.sfwriter.com/wordstar.htm