If you have followed for a while, I got a cheap Sioux/Milwaukee angle
drill clone last fall. I did an abuse test on it to see how good or bad
it really was. It wore out in less than 2 months, and I did abuse it.
The failure was due to the casing around the drill shaft wearing out,
not the bearings as I thought. If there was metal or other support
around the shaft, it would have lasted longer. I had a few friends who
got them also, and although I haven't heard of any wearing out, there
were some problems with the trigger failing. They were under warrenty,
were returned, and replaced.
The next part of the story is that I next set out to wear out a
Milwaukee drill. It was brand new, and I put it to work as soon as the
cheap one died. The Milwaukee died on Friday. Bearings I think. This is
about a 6 month life span in my shop, which for most other people will
mean a year or five. I run 3 inch discs on it, I blow it out regularly,
I put in some 8 hour sanding days ( yes, I do put some things off too
long and then need to work overtime to catch up). Oh yes, it is the
slow speed model.
$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.
robo hippy

In article .com,
"robo hippy" wrote:

$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.

In my opinion, that's not really an accurate comparison.

The cheapie must be *replaced* due to housing failure - an item likely
not easily/inexpensively procured. The Milwaukee/Sioux can be
*repaired*. The upper and lower bearings can both be replaced for, what,
$12-$15 total? (not going to take mine apart to find out what specific
bearings are required - but the general range for "premium"
double-sealed electric motor bearings would likely be less than $5 each
and certainly not a difficult job to do for an owner/user)

So, taking the tool life spans at your values, your comparison should
really be: at 6 months - $150 (M/S) vs. $120; at 12 months - $165 (M/S)
vs. $240; at 24 months $190 (M/S) vs. $480. This doesn't take into
consideration the environmental waste and impact of manufacturing,
shipping, and packaging, plus material waste, involved in purchasing 8
new cheapie units per year.

Mr. Hippy, if you have the habit of throwing away all your tools,
appliances and cars when repairs are needed, I'll be headed down I-5 to
haul this "trash" away for you.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

"robo hippy" wrote:

$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.

Owen Lowe wrote:

The cheapie must be *replaced* due to housing failure - an item likely
not easily/inexpensively procured.

Being a cheap bahstid, I wonder if a glob of epoxy might do it, but I'm
having a bit of trouble envisioning the failure mode from the
description.

Owen Lowe wrote:

The Milwaukee/Sioux can be
*repaired*. The upper and lower bearings can both be replaced for, what,
$12-$15 total? (not going to take mine apart to find out what specific
bearings are required - but the general range for "premium"
double-sealed electric motor bearings would likely be less than $5 each
and certainly not a difficult job to do for an owner/user)

You'd have to check to be sure. A different model of Milwaulkee I have
needed a 25 cent (my estimate) brush holder and spring, but that was
only available as part of a $22.50 kit with a bunch of other parts I did
not need (this being for a drill I got on sale for $100). Bearings at
least might be more generic with a good bearing supply house.

An observation - the Hip Robot might well have entered the level of use
and abuse (8 hour sanding days) where certain inherent advantages of air
tools come to the fore (though one does have to bite the price of a big
enough compressor if you don't start with that in hand). They run cool
and they keep the dust blown out of themselves.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On 7 May 2006 22:59:24 -0700, "robo hippy" wrote:

If you have followed for a while, I got a cheap Sioux/Milwaukee angle
drill clone last fall. I did an abuse test on it to see how good or bad
it really was. It wore out in less than 2 months, and I did abuse it.
The failure was due to the casing around the drill shaft wearing out,
not the bearings as I thought. If there was metal or other support
around the shaft, it would have lasted longer. I had a few friends who
got them also, and although I haven't heard of any wearing out, there
were some problems with the trigger failing. They were under warrenty,
were returned, and replaced.
The next part of the story is that I next set out to wear out a
Milwaukee drill. It was brand new, and I put it to work as soon as the
cheap one died. The Milwaukee died on Friday. Bearings I think. This is
about a 6 month life span in my shop, which for most other people will
mean a year or five. I run 3 inch discs on it, I blow it out regularly,
I put in some 8 hour sanding days ( yes, I do put some things off too
long and then need to work overtime to catch up). Oh yes, it is the
slow speed model.
$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.
robo hippy

Reed... seems like I got my Ebay special about the same time as you got your
drill...

I use it a lot, probably not as much as you do yours as I have 3 drills and use
the one that's closest, but I've put a LOT of hours on the poor clone..

I don't blow it out, brush it off or do any maintenance on it... I abuse the
hell out of it with too much pressure, long sanding sessions on hot days, etc...
I've worn out or over heated several H&L sanding pads but the drill seems to be
like new...
That said, I have to wonder about quality control, especially on the cheaper
tools... I could have got the only good drill in a box of many...

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.

I use the flexible shaft, which goes for 50 or 60, depending on source, and
use it for a couple/three years. Not to mention the advantage gained by
having a sander I can support on the rest rather than the work when sanding
on the lathe. Couple hundred pieces a year average usage.

Then there's the benefit gained in having a great lap sander as well. Put
the piece between my knees, grip one edge, sand with a full handshake grip
on the handle. Tough to beat it for a lot of work, especially the bowls of
the spoons I carve..

Oh yes, I never blow it out, the motor residing some three or so feet away
from the sanding dust production. Easy to pick up ninety plus percent at
the source.

Oh yes, the 'rest' of the story.

I gave the cheap drill to a friend in our club who is one of those 'oh
boy, this gives me something to do during my lunch break' types. Me, I
love to use my tools, but don't like to work on them. Kind of like
cars, that is a mechanics job. My friend is going to try some epoxy in
the shaft (where the chuck attaches to the drill, there was a lot of
wobble in the pad (1/4 inch) as it spun) and see if that works. I will
take my M/S drill, and have it repaired which is usually about $75. I
probably could repair it myself, but they can do it a lot faster, and
easier than I can.

Right now, I am starting in on a pneumatic Sioux angle drill that I
have had, but not used much, and see what I can do to it.
robo hippy

robo hippy wrote:

$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is

$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.
robo hippy

If I were to use them as a drill, for the sake of accuracy and
dependability, I would go with the Milwaukee. But.. that is using it
as a drill, not a sander.

But if you are only using the machine to spin a piece of sandpaper I
think you are missing the boat. Next time Harbor Freight has their
model on sale, go buy it for $29 bucks. Then add the 1 year
replacement warranty for $5 that may start after the original 90
warranty (I think it is literally $5 for anything under $50). It would
give you a minimum of 12 months replacement in the store. This would
preclude replacing anything inside the drill or taking anything apart
to find out what broke. It would save you a few hours anyway by the
time you dismantle the drill, locate the parts, drive to get them, and
reassemble.

And it would compare favorably with your economic model.

Milwaukee - $150 X 2 (one year) = $300 annually

Current brand X Chiawanese - $120 X 2 (one year) = $240 annually

HF Chiawanese with warranty - $35 for one year = well, $35 for one year

Robert

In article .com,
wrote:

Milwaukee - $150 X 2 (one year) = $300 annually

I'll gladly pay the postage for you guys replacing your
Milwaukee/Sioux's to ship them to me.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

In article .com,
"robo hippy" wrote:

I will
take my M/S drill, and have it repaired which is usually about $75. I
probably could repair it myself, but they can do it a lot faster, and
easier than I can.

I think you're selling yourself short as well as paying at least $50 too
much over buying the bearings and replacing them yourself. I can
certainly understand your reluctance to regularly plop down $75 twice a
year to repair a tool - but it's something that's easy to do and only
costs the price of the bearings.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

Owen Lowe wrote:

wrote:
Milwaukee - $150 X 2 (one year) = $300 annually


I'll gladly pay the postage for you guys replacing your
Milwaukee/Sioux's to ship them to me.


I think you mistunderstood my post. I was following his economic model
for thriftiness.

I am happily hanging on to my Sioux/Milwaukee. However, I use my
Sioux/Milwaukee for drilling and light sanding, not dedicated to
sanding. The intent of my illustration was to expand on this and
earlier reports and experiences that pertained to the $29.95 drills. I
personally would not use a drill of the caliber of Miwalukee as a
dedicated sander as that is not its strong suit.

If all you are wanting to do, knowing that you will wear out the tool
no matter what, is find a solution to spinning sandpaper around (no
accuracy needed) why not go the least expensive route? If a set of
bearings is almost $30 for the S/M on one hand, and on the other you
have a machine under warranty that allows you to replace the whole
thing with no repairs or money at all on your part, why not? I am not
understanding your reluctance to this since the original investment in
the tool you know you will break regardless of the brand, is about
the cost of bearings for the S/M drill and you don't have to go get
them and install them. I think the key for me is that he KNOWS he will
break either machine.

For me, I have my S/M drill that I use when needed on cabinet
installations. But for sanding, I love my $29.95 special that I got
for $24.95 on sale. It spins paper just fine. And if it craps out, I
wlll buy another if it gets out of warranty. i have never drilled a
hole with it though...

Robert

I bought a 3/8" CTC drill for $35 complete with a 3 year warrantee. I think
I have a drill (sander) for life!
wrote in message
oups.com...
robo hippy wrote:

$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is

$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.
robo hippy

If I were to use them as a drill, for the sake of accuracy and
dependability, I would go with the Milwaukee. But.. that is using it
as a drill, not a sander.

But if you are only using the machine to spin a piece of sandpaper I
think you are missing the boat. Next time Harbor Freight has their
model on sale, go buy it for $29 bucks. Then add the 1 year
replacement warranty for $5 that may start after the original 90
warranty (I think it is literally $5 for anything under $50). It would
give you a minimum of 12 months replacement in the store. This would
preclude replacing anything inside the drill or taking anything apart
to find out what broke. It would save you a few hours anyway by the
time you dismantle the drill, locate the parts, drive to get them, and
reassemble.

And it would compare favorably with your economic model.

Milwaukee - $150 X 2 (one year) = $300 annually

Current brand X Chiawanese - $120 X 2 (one year) = $240 annually

HF Chiawanese with warranty - $35 for one year = well, $35 for one year

Robert

I guess that my real point if that most people only think of buying one
drill, and probably won't wear it out like I do. Which one is the
better value for the origional investment? I probably should get
another cheap one, and see how long it lasts. I think that I will wear
out the pneumatic one first.
robo hippy

On Mon, 8 May 2006 11:16:55 -0400, "George" George@least wrote:


"robo hippy" wrote in message
roups.com...
$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.

I use the flexible shaft, which goes for 50 or 60, depending on source, and
use it for a couple/three years. Not to mention the advantage gained by
having a sander I can support on the rest rather than the work when sanding
on the lathe. Couple hundred pieces a year average usage.

Then there's the benefit gained in having a great lap sander as well. Put
the piece between my knees, grip one edge, sand with a full handshake grip
on the handle. Tough to beat it for a lot of work, especially the bowls of
the spoons I carve..

You wear kevlar boxers when you lap sand? *g*

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On 8 May 2006 08:32:05 -0700, "robo hippy" wrote:

Oh yes, the 'rest' of the story.

I gave the cheap drill to a friend in our club who is one of those 'oh
boy, this gives me something to do during my lunch break' types. Me, I
love to use my tools, but don't like to work on them. Kind of like
cars, that is a mechanics job. My friend is going to try some epoxy in
the shaft (where the chuck attaches to the drill, there was a lot of
wobble in the pad (1/4 inch) as it spun) and see if that works. I will
take my M/S drill, and have it repaired which is usually about $75. I
probably could repair it myself, but they can do it a lot faster, and
easier than I can.

Right now, I am starting in on a pneumatic Sioux angle drill that I
have had, but not used much, and see what I can do to it.
robo hippy

IMHO, being really cheap and lazy, I'd buy 3 more cheap drills before spending
$75 to fix a good one...
Let's see... a holder over the chisel rack with 3 cheap drills holding maybe 80,
180 & 220 grit....

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Hi Reed

It's not only the Sioux/Milwaukee angle drills that have the problem of
the bearing problem, I have had this happen with a B&D drill that I
used for sanding, this problem occurs just because we use these drills
for sanding, and when those shielded only bearings do get grit inside
of them the outside race gets yanked around and the plastic housing
just does not stand up to that. (some of those bearings are shielded on
one side only)

So I wonder how long a brand new Milwaukee would last if they had the
shielded bearings replaced for sealed bearings (or do it themselves)
before using it, I would expect that the initial investment would pay
off well, and the drills last for several years.

I use just normal cheap drills and my Milwaukee only when I am unable
to do the sanding with my other drills.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

One thing that I am noticing about the pneumatic Sioux, is that it
keeps my compressor running continuously (5 hp, 60 gal. Cambel
Hausfeld). I know that the compressor used a lot more ecectricity than
the M/S drills do. That may end up being a considerable cost that I did
not consider. On the other hand, it works very well, and the cool
breeze is a relief, as I am one of those people who is always warm. I
wish it had a better air flow mechanism than the toggle switch it has.
You can't fine tune it, and wide open is 2200 rpm. The trigger switch
is very touchy, and it is difficult to get fine control. So far, 50
bowls from 16 inch diameter to 7 inch, and about 16 hours. Another 6 or
so hours tomorrow, then off to a show.
robo hippy

to be continued

On 9 May 2006 23:29:11 -0700, "robo hippy" wrote:

One thing that I am noticing about the pneumatic Sioux, is that it
keeps my compressor running continuously (5 hp, 60 gal. Cambel
Hausfeld). I know that the compressor used a lot more ecectricity than
the M/S drills do. That may end up being a considerable cost that I did
not consider. On the other hand, it works very well, and the cool
breeze is a relief, as I am one of those people who is always warm. I
wish it had a better air flow mechanism than the toggle switch it has.
You can't fine tune it, and wide open is 2200 rpm. The trigger switch
is very touchy, and it is difficult to get fine control. So far, 50
bowls from 16 inch diameter to 7 inch, and about 16 hours. Another 6 or
so hours tomorrow, then off to a show.
robo hippy

to be continued

To which Mac added, see ya there Saturday, Reed...

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On 7 May 2006 22:59:24 -0700, "robo hippy"
wrote:


$150 for 6 months vs $30 times 4 (I am figuring 1 1/2 months life) is
$120 for the same time span. The cheap one may be the better deal.

Man, you killed a Milwalkee in 6 mos.? They're good tools...
Maybe you're using the wrong tool for the job, have you considered
using a heavy-duty angle grinder instead?

He might be using sandpaper that has the grit come off and get into the
drills bearings.

And to think that a pair of double sealed bearings on sale at Enco cost
only $4.78 right now and normally only about $3.50 each.

They would keep all the crap out and the drills last a lot longer.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

I buy my sanding paper from Klingspoor, in 12 inch wide strips, and
then cut my own discs (slightly larger than the ones you order). If
there is sand getting in, then it is minimal. I have had maybe 10
rebuilds on three of the four electric drills that I own, the Milwaukee
was brand new. The angle grinders just look too bulky. When I take the
next drills in to be repaired, I will ask about double sealed bearings,
and see if that makes a difference, or if that is what they have been
putting in all along.
robo hippy

robo hippy wrote:

I will ask about double sealed bearings,
and see if that makes a difference

I hope you let us know here. That could be a nice piece of info to
keep in the back of your mind until bearing time came up.

Robert

Couldn't you use a regulator?

You can't fine tune it, and wide open is 2200 rpm. The trigger switch
is very touchy, and it is difficult to get fine control.

In article .com,
"robo hippy" wrote:

When I take the
next drills in to be repaired, I will ask about double sealed bearings,
and see if that makes a difference, or if that is what they have been
putting in all along.

Just popped open my M/S to see what kind of bearings are in there...
WOW, it never occurred to me there are 3 pairs. One pair for the chuck
shaft, one for the intermediate shaft between the chuck shaft and the
armature shaft, and the armature which has the last pair. Most are
relatively small - maybe 5/8" outside diameter (the chuck shaft pair is
larger - maybe 3/4") - and appear to be shielded *only* - not sealed.
The difference in replacement cost of sealed vs. shielded would be quite
minimal, about 40 or 50 cents more per bearing.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

IMHO, being really cheap and lazy, I'd buy 3 more cheap drills before
spending
$75 to fix a good one...
Let's see... a holder over the chisel rack with 3 cheap drills holding maybe
80,
180 & 220 grit....

You know, that's really not a bad idea - AAMOF, it's a really good idea.
Let's say one commonly uses 5 grits - 120, 180, 220, 320, 400. By having
5 cheap sanders @ $30 each, you're laying out the same cash as for the
M/S, gain a lot of convenience and also extend your 1.5 month cheapie
tool life by 5 times or more if the failures are a factor of long run
times and heat buildup.

I just may have to look into this myself and dedicate my M/S to the
drilling tasks it's made for.

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:39:23 -0700, Owen Lowe wrote:

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

IMHO, being really cheap and lazy, I'd buy 3 more cheap drills before
spending
$75 to fix a good one...
Let's see... a holder over the chisel rack with 3 cheap drills holding maybe
80,
180 & 220 grit....

You know, that's really not a bad idea - AAMOF, it's a really good idea.
Let's say one commonly uses 5 grits - 120, 180, 220, 320, 400. By having
5 cheap sanders @ $30 each, you're laying out the same cash as for the
M/S, gain a lot of convenience and also extend your 1.5 month cheapie
tool life by 5 times or more if the failures are a factor of long run
times and heat buildup.

I just may have to look into this myself and dedicate my M/S to the
drilling tasks it's made for.

See... further proof that great minds think alike, Owen.. *g*

The downside is having several mandrels, but since I go through them pretty
quickly, the overall cost would be the same, because each one would be used less
per bowl.. *g*

I use 2 sanders right now because it's a hassle changing back and forth from 3"
to 2" H&L pads..

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

I use 2 sanders right now because it's a hassle changing back and forth from
3"
to 2" H&L pads..

Well, now you've just upped the quantity of cheapie drills needed to 10!

--
Owen Lowe

Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm

Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness.

On Fri, 12 May 2006 11:43:01 -0700, Owen Lowe wrote:

In article ,
mac davis wrote:

I use 2 sanders right now because it's a hassle changing back and forth from
3"
to 2" H&L pads..

Well, now you've just upped the quantity of cheapie drills needed to 10!

And doubles the size of the shop/shelf/rack required.. *rofl*

The shop would look like a brew pub with funny red tapper handles..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm