One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...
your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely that
it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...
your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation but
your body can do it 'easily'?

Cheers, T i m

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid symptoms.

On 30/03/2021 12:04, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the hysterical
at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.


/nocebo/ effect?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:03:36 -0000 (UTC), Scion
wrote:

snip

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid symptoms.

Ah, that's a good point.

Whilst that can't be ruled out, they are generally very careful with
it all and so think would have got it sooner than just before getting
the jab (but not impossible of course).

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:04:10 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the hysterical
at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.

Quite, although in the case of my mate and his Mrs (I don't know of
their friend), I would have thought (but could be wrong of course)
that they are both fairly pragmatic / realistic / healthy / sensible
people and neither hypochondriacs and reasonably fit (for retirees,
daily 3 mile walk etc).

They were given the appointments, went at their allotted time, had
whatever jab they were given and it was job done. No fears or other
considerations that I sensed in discussion with him.

I'm sure you are right in that all the negative hype is both stopping
some people from having it and making them believe they are reacting
to it though.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

I've had both too - Pfizer. No reaction and barely even felt the actual
jab. Did wonder if the needle is smaller than for the AZ, as some have
felt that.

Being old, most of my mates etc have had it. Straw poll of those says few
have had any reaction at all, and those that did just mild pain in the arm
for a day or so. Really no different from the reaction to a flue jab.

--
*Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:07:01 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 30/03/2021 12:04, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the hysterical
at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.


/nocebo/ effect?

I was thinking more along the scientific lines though, *actual*
information re how different people may biologically handle such a
process.

Like, what if the Mrs and I have had Covid19 asymptomatically? If
asked by any medical personnel 'have you had covid or the symptoms'
within the last 2 weeks (or whatever) we would have replied 'no', or
'not at all' (not just the last two weeks) but could have had covid
and therefore already have the antibodies?

We both recently had routine blood tests (mine was due at the time of
the first lockdown and so didn't bother getting it done) and mine was
done prior to my jab (only the one so far) so would they 'routinely'
check for covid antibodies in that (none was mentioned other than 'all
normal' etc)?

How many 65-70 years old have carried Covid19 asymptomatically do we
know? Aren't they carry a higher likelihood for the worst symptoms?

I think they are currently running tests that may (better) answer some
of this?

Cheers, T i m

Scion posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?


My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first by
a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was fine on
the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up several times
with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had headache, nausea,
general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I felt unable to keep
warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the evening.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting any
reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a few
weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia); and (c)
several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse, some less
bad.

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid symptoms.

No, the vaccine side-effect symptoms were entirely different. And also
they disappeared completely by the following day, which a symptomatic
Covid infection would not have done.

--
Algernon

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:24:04 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

I've had both too - Pfizer. No reaction and barely even felt the actual
jab.

No, we didn't feel ours either (and I'm no fan of needles /
injections).

Did wonder if the needle is smaller than for the AZ, as some have
felt that.

We had AZ and the Mrs wasn't even aware they had done it. But then
she's got a full and long service history and her Gold blood donors
badge so has probably experienced far worse.

Being old, most of my mates etc have had it. Straw poll of those says few
have had any reaction at all, and those that did just mild pain in the arm
for a day or so.

Yah, we might have just felt / had that.

Really no different from the reaction to a flue jab.

I'll have to take your word on that. ;-)

I did get a recorded message offering one and when in conversation
with the doctors receptionist on another matter a week later I was
informed 'they have stopped offering them now'. I could get one done
anywhere else and if I did I could stipulate it be the vegan one (and
why wouldn't everone do that, if they knew the consequences of using
eggs and that there was a choice)?

Cheers, T i m

On 30/03/2021 12:21, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:07:01 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 30/03/2021 12:04, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the
hysterical at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.


/nocebo/ effect?

Well nocebo happens when you *know* the substance you are taking is a
sugar pill.

Placebo is when it's the real thing - or you believe it is.

No. The placebo effect is additional good effects from believing that
the medicine (real or not) will do good. The Nocebo effect is additional
bad effects from believing that the medicine (real or not) will have
side-effects.

On 30/03/2021 12:34, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Scion posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?


My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first by
a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was fine on
the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up several times
with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had headache, nausea,
general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I felt unable to keep
warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the evening.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting any
reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a few
weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia); and (c)
several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse, some less
bad.

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid
symptoms.

No, the vaccine side-effect symptoms were entirely different. And also
they disappeared completely by the following day, which a symptomatic
Covid infection would not have done.

Short term effects like that may not be nice, but they are a perfectly
normal response to many vaccines and do no real harm. Well worth it for
knowing that you now have at least some protection.

I am booked in for my first jab on Thursday. I hope I have no reaction,
but if I do feel ill, I've got the long weekend to recover.

On 30/03/2021 12:32, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:07:01 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 30/03/2021 12:04, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the hysterical
at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.


/nocebo/ effect?

I was thinking more along the scientific lines though, *actual*
information re how different people may biologically handle such a
process.

Like, what if the Mrs and I have had Covid19 asymptomatically? If
asked by any medical personnel 'have you had covid or the symptoms'
within the last 2 weeks (or whatever) we would have replied 'no', or
'not at all' (not just the last two weeks) but could have had covid
and therefore already have the antibodies?

We both recently had routine blood tests (mine was due at the time of
the first lockdown and so didn't bother getting it done) and mine was
done prior to my jab (only the one so far) so would they 'routinely'
check for covid antibodies in that (none was mentioned other than 'all
normal' etc)?

How many 65-70 years old have carried Covid19 asymptomatically do we
know? Aren't they carry a higher likelihood for the worst symptoms?

I think they are currently running tests that may (better) answer some
of this?


I responding only to Jethro's post


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

My sleep pattern has changed over the past few months and I tend to
listen to the world news in the early hours of the morning.

A few things that were reported (during interviews)....

Those who have a greater reaction to the vaccine may be those who would
have had the most serious outcome if they caught the virus.

The consequences of being obese: Age is the overriding factor and
obesity just pushes your risk up the age range. The risk with age
doubles for each 8 years of age. Someone who is 20 and is obese has the
same risk as a 30 year old. But someone who is 60 and obese may have
the same risk as someone at 66. By the time you get to 75 obesity
doesn't increase the risk by much because you are already entering the
high age risk group.

Covid mortality in India is low and it hasn't been explained yet by the
medical profession. This seems contrary to the reported experience in
the UK.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:34:23 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:

snip

My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first by
a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was fine on
the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up several times
with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had headache, nausea,
general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I felt unable to keep
warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the evening.

Thanks for the feedback.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting any
reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a few
weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia);

Ok.

and (c)
several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse, some less
bad.

Do you mean independently on their jabs unbeknown to you or wouldn't
the fact that they did have a reaction, add, not detract from any
possible 'psychological effect' on you?

snip

Cheers, T i m

On 30/03/2021 12:52, Steve Walker wrote:
On 30/03/2021 12:34, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Scion posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?


My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first
by a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was fine
on the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up several
times with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had headache,
nausea, general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I felt unable
to keep warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the evening.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting
any reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a
few weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia); and
(c) several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse,
some less bad.

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid
symptoms.

No, the vaccine side-effect symptoms were entirely different. And also
they disappeared completely by the following day, which a symptomatic
Covid infection would not have done.

Short term effects like that may not be nice, but they are a perfectly
normal response to many vaccines and do no real harm. Well worth it for
knowing that you now have at least some protection.

I am booked in for my first jab on Thursday. I hope I have no reaction,
but if I do feel ill, I've got the long weekend to recover.

You may well get a stringer reaction to a 2nd dose.

--
Michael Chare

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:00:51 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

My sleep pattern has changed over the past few months and I tend to
listen to the world news in the early hours of the morning.

A few things that were reported (during interviews)....

Those who have a greater reaction to the vaccine may be those who would
have had the most serious outcome if they caught the virus.

That's what I was wondering, if there was any linkage to the level of
reaction and the likelihood of catching / suffering (dying) from it.

The consequences of being obese: Age is the overriding factor and
obesity just pushes your risk up the age range. The risk with age
doubles for each 8 years of age. Someone who is 20 and is obese has the
same risk as a 30 year old. But someone who is 60 and obese may have
the same risk as someone at 66. By the time you get to 75 obesity
doesn't increase the risk by much because you are already entering the
high age risk group.

Makes sense.

Covid mortality in India is low and it hasn't been explained yet by the
medical profession. This seems contrary to the reported experience in
the UK.

It will be interesting to see what pans out in the end (if there is
'an end' etc).

Cheers, T i m

Dave Plowman (News) brought next idea :
Being old, most of my mates etc have had it. Straw poll of those says few
have had any reaction at all, and those that did just mild pain in the arm
for a day or so. Really no different from the reaction to a flue jab.

I had no reaction to my first ever flu jab in October.

I had my first Pfizer early Feb, hardly felt the needle, no reaction to
it, no sore arm, just a slight feeling of a bruise in the area if I
felt for it, but no mark.

My partner had the AZ last Thursday, fear of needles so I went with
her. Not much reaction, though a slight headache and a heavy arm. She
was sent home half an hour early on the Friday from the school where
she works.

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:23:07 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

snip

I am booked in for my first jab on Thursday. I hope I have no reaction,
but if I do feel ill, I've got the long weekend to recover.

You may well get a stringer reaction to a 2nd dose.

OOI, my Mrs got the same reaction to her second as her first and that
was next to none (a slight sensitivity at the actual injection point).


Cheers, T i m

On 30-03-2021 13:23, Michael Chare wrote:
On 30/03/2021 12:52, Steve Walker wrote:
On 30/03/2021 12:34, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Scion posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?


My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first
by a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was
fine on the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up
several times with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had
headache, nausea, general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I
felt unable to keep warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the
evening.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting
any reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a
few weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia); and
(c) several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse,
some less bad.

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid
symptoms.

No, the vaccine side-effect symptoms were entirely different. And
also they disappeared completely by the following day, which a
symptomatic Covid infection would not have done.

Short term effects like that may not be nice, but they are a perfectly
normal response to many vaccines and do no real harm. Well worth it
for knowing that you now have at least some protection.

I am booked in for my first jab on Thursday. I hope I have no
reaction, but if I do feel ill, I've got the long weekend to recover.

You may well get a stringer reaction to a 2nd dose.

I think the Pfizer is more powerful because I've had both vaccines (I am
clinically highly vulnerable) and the Pfizer gave me more side effects
than the Astra Zeneca.

On 30 Mar 2021 12:37:13 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 30 Mar 2021 at 11:44:02 BST, T i m wrote:

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine ...

If you're not allergic to any component of the jab, then there's no reason for
your body to do anything except, over a small number of weeks, your immune
system notices the foreign item and starts priming your T-cells to eat it up.

So ignoring / discarding any physiological / environmental / unlinked
effects, why do some people seem to suffer quite strong after effects?

snip

Cheers, T i m

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

All of the above are possible...

(I had my first one this morning, so I will find out which if any kick
in for me!)

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?)

Sometimes it's an attenuated or weakened version of the actual pathogen
(or possibly a genetically engineered version with its "payload"
removed), but more commonly its just a part of it - typically some of
the surface proteins since these will be what the immune system will
"see" first following infection.

in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

Yup - some of the symptoms we associate with "infection" like raised
temperature etc are just those of the bodies immune system "activating".

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...

AIUI, if you already have some antibodies to the pathogen then you are
more likely to have a more noticeable reaction to the vaccine - as it
will be "recognised" and provoke a more direct response.

So for people who have already had a similar infection they may get a
more noticeable response to the first vaccine. For others who have not
been previously exposed, they may get more response to the second.

your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Some people seem to have less response than others anyway. Older people
tend to have less response. With some vaccines that can mean that they
are less effective in older people, however with the current covid ones,
that does not appear to be the cases. They have all been shown to
provoke very strong antibody response across all the age groups,
regardless of the reaction experienced by the recipient.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:26:45 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

All of the above are possible...

Ok.

(I had my first one this morning, so I will find out which if any kick
in for me!)

Cool. A live study. ;-)

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?)

Sometimes it's an attenuated or weakened version of the actual pathogen
(or possibly a genetically engineered version with its "payload"
removed), but more commonly its just a part of it - typically some of
the surface proteins since these will be what the immune system will
"see" first following infection.

Understood.

in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

Yup - some of the symptoms we associate with "infection" like raised
temperature etc are just those of the bodies immune system "activating".

But can some people have these things going on and not experience any
noticeable reaction whilst other do then?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...

AIUI, if you already have some antibodies to the pathogen then you are
more likely to have a more noticeable reaction to the vaccine - as it
will be "recognised" and provoke a more direct response.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. A bigger gun to fight back with etc.

So for people who have already had a similar infection they may get a
more noticeable response to the first vaccine. For others who have not
been previously exposed, they may get more response to the second.

Ok (and explains why a second jab as mentioned elsewhere might create
a greater action).

your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Some people seem to have less response than others anyway. Older people
tend to have less response. With some vaccines that can mean that they
are less effective in older people, however with the current covid ones,
that does not appear to be the cases. They have all been shown to
provoke very strong antibody response across all the age groups,
regardless of the reaction experienced by the recipient.

Ok thanks. Please let us know how you feel over the next 24 hours. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:34:23 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:
It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting any
reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a few
weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia);
and (c)
several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse, some less
bad.

Do you mean independently on their jabs unbeknown to you or wouldn't
the fact that they did have a reaction, add, not detract from any
possible 'psychological effect' on you?

I didn't know about them until a week or two later, so it couldn't have
affected my reaction to the jab.

--
Algernon

On 30/03/2021 12:32, T i m wrote:

Like, what if the Mrs and I have had Covid19 asymptomatically? If
asked by any medical personnel 'have you had covid or the symptoms'
within the last 2 weeks (or whatever) we would have replied 'no', or
'not at all' (not just the last two weeks) but could have had covid
and therefore already have the antibodies?

Yup, it's possible. The amount of asymptomatic transmission was one the
big unknowns in the early days, but now we know there is lots of it.

We both recently had routine blood tests (mine was due at the time of
the first lockdown and so didn't bother getting it done) and mine was
done prior to my jab (only the one so far) so would they 'routinely'
check for covid antibodies in that (none was mentioned other than 'all
normal' etc)?

I suspect they could do a search if required, but that is not usually
part of a standard blood test.

How many 65-70 years old have carried Covid19 asymptomatically do we
know? Aren't they carry a higher likelihood for the worst symptoms?

There may be figures, but I don't have them.

I think they are currently running tests that may (better) answer some
of this?




--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:11:38 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:

T i m posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:34:23 +0100, Algernon Goss-Custard
wrote:
It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting any
reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a few
weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia);
and (c)
several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse, some less
bad.

Do you mean independently on their jabs unbeknown to you or wouldn't
the fact that they did have a reaction, add, not detract from any
possible 'psychological effect' on you?

I didn't know about them until a week or two later, so it couldn't have
affected my reaction to the jab.

Thanks for clarifying.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:13:16 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

We both recently had routine blood tests (mine was due at the time of
the first lockdown and so didn't bother getting it done) and mine was
done prior to my jab (only the one so far) so would they 'routinely'
check for covid antibodies in that (none was mentioned other than 'all
normal' etc)?

I suspect they could do a search if required, but that is not usually
part of a standard blood test.

Ok thanks. (I did emphasise the vegan thing and hoped that might get
them to do a more specific / detailed test in that direction but I
don't know if they did or not. They did specifically answer my
question on the follow up phone call re the likes of B12 as 'normal'
(FWTMBW etc)

How many 65-70 years old have carried Covid19 asymptomatically do we
know? Aren't they carry a higher likelihood for the worst symptoms?

There may be figures, but I don't have them.

I think they are working on that now.

Cheers, T i m

On 30/03/2021 13:38, Tim Streater wrote:
On 30 Mar 2021 at 12:04:10 BST, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

It's worth remembering - especially as reporting verges on the hysterical
at times - the placebo effect is very, very real.

I had a mildly aching arm for 24 hours, then nothing more. SWMBO had nothing
at all.

They will have been noting people's reactions during the clinical trials.

With the AZ trials they also used an existing real vaccine in the
placebo group, so that the placebo group would not be made aware they
were in the placebo group due to a lack of any reaction.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...
your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Cheers, T i m

just the same as the flue jag ....

--
It wouldn't be the first time reality took theory and conjecture out
behind the shed and gave them a good thrashing

On 30/03/2021 14:12, Radio Man wrote:
On 30-03-2021 13:23, Michael Chare wrote:
On 30/03/2021 12:52, Steve Walker wrote:
On 30/03/2021 12:34, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
Scion posted
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:44:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?


My wife and I both had the AZ vaccine in February, hers coming first
by a couple of weeks. She had no adverse reaction whatever. I was
fine on the day I had it, but during the following night I woke up
several times with an extremely dry mouth. In the morning I had
headache, nausea, general malaise, very like a bad hangover. Also I
felt unable to keep warm and had to go to bed. This lasted until the
evening.

It was unlikely to be psychological because (a) I was not expecting
any reaction, having seen none in my wife; (b) I had had a flu jab a
few weeks before and had no reaction then (so no needle-phobia); and
(c) several of our friends have had the same reaction, some worse,
some less bad.

There's always the chance that they actually caught Covid a short
while
before having the jab and the 'reaction to the vaccine' was Covid
symptoms.

No, the vaccine side-effect symptoms were entirely different. And
also they disappeared completely by the following day, which a
symptomatic Covid infection would not have done.

Short term effects like that may not be nice, but they are a
perfectly normal response to many vaccines and do no real harm. Well
worth it for knowing that you now have at least some protection.

I am booked in for my first jab on Thursday. I hope I have no
reaction, but if I do feel ill, I've got the long weekend to recover.

You may well get a stringer reaction to a 2nd dose.

I think the Pfizer is more powerful because I've had both vaccines (I am
clinically highly vulnerable) and the Pfizer gave me more side effects
than the Astra Zeneca.
thought that wasn't recommended brian ? ...

--
It wouldn't be the first time reality took theory and conjecture out
behind the shed and gave them a good thrashing

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.


ZOE has the statistics which ISTR are about 20% notice something on the
first jab and a slightly higher proportion on the second jab. Females
typically more prone to side effects (due to lower blood volume and a
stronger immune reponse according to my tame biochemist).

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/vacci...eady-had-covid

They have some quite good seminars from time to time.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

My wife was knocked sideways by it the day after. I just felt a bit
lethargic for a day. Slightly sore shoulder (as in couldn't lie on it
for one night) after 2 days and that was about it.

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

It is the initial response to the challenge of alien proteins. The mRNA
vaccines being slightly different to the AZ one which uses

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...
your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

The most common symptom is slightly swollen lymph nodes nearest to the
vaccination point. Most people won't even notice though.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 30/03/2021 14:42, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:26:45 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:

One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

All of the above are possible...

Ok.

(I had my first one this morning, so I will find out which if any kick
in for me!)

Cool. A live study. ;-)

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?)

Sometimes it's an attenuated or weakened version of the actual pathogen
(or possibly a genetically engineered version with its "payload"
removed), but more commonly its just a part of it - typically some of
the surface proteins since these will be what the immune system will
"see" first following infection.

Understood.

in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

Yup - some of the symptoms we associate with "infection" like raised
temperature etc are just those of the bodies immune system "activating".

But can some people have these things going on and not experience any
noticeable reaction whilst other do then?

Yup. Much the same as with an infection itself - some might experience
worse effects of a cold than someone else with the same infection.

Age is a factor - generally immune responses weaken with age. (that was
one of the things that made the 1919 "spanish" flu do deadly - it tended
to cause a massive over-response in the immune system (a "cytokine
storm"), and so uncharacteristically tended to make fit healthy people
with strong immune systems more sick than the more traditional very old
and very young)

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...

AIUI, if you already have some antibodies to the pathogen then you are
more likely to have a more noticeable reaction to the vaccine - as it
will be "recognised" and provoke a more direct response.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. A bigger gun to fight back with etc.

So for people who have already had a similar infection they may get a
more noticeable response to the first vaccine. For others who have not
been previously exposed, they may get more response to the second.

Ok (and explains why a second jab as mentioned elsewhere might create
a greater action).

Yup, after the first, it's a "novel" pathogen that the body has to learn
how to fight. The second time, it's seen all the wanted posters :-)

your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Some people seem to have less response than others anyway. Older people
tend to have less response. With some vaccines that can mean that they
are less effective in older people, however with the current covid ones,
that does not appear to be the cases. They have all been shown to
provoke very strong antibody response across all the age groups,
regardless of the reaction experienced by the recipient.

Ok thanks. Please let us know how you feel over the next 24 hours. ;-)
Will do - so long as I live :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 30/03/2021 15:42, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

just the same as the flue jag ....

Is that similar to a Daimler exhaust pipe?



--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/03/2021 13:00, alan_m wrote:
Covid mortality in India is low and it hasn't been explained yet by the
medical profession. This seems contrary to the reported experience in
the UK.

*Reported* covid mortality in India is low. People in India die on the
streets all the time. Who knows what they die of?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...af1_story.html

In short its really just another example of 'we really haven't a ****ing
clue, but lets spin some inadequate data to make a story'


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On 30/03/2021 14:12, Radio Man wrote:

I think the Pfizer is more powerful because I've had both vaccines (I am
clinically highly vulnerable) and the Pfizer gave me more side effects
than the Astra Zeneca.

That seems like a leap of logic too far. For starters you would not
necessarily expect the same response to the first jab as you get to the
second, and you can only be a COVID19 vaccine virgin the once.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:19:41 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

But can some people have these things going on and not experience any
noticeable reaction whilst other do then?

Yup. Much the same as with an infection itself - some might experience
worse effects of a cold than someone else with the same infection.

Yes, of course and I would have thought because of similar reasons,
eg, just how 'easily' the body can deal with such an imposter /
threat.

Age is a factor - generally immune responses weaken with age. (that was
one of the things that made the 1919 "spanish" flu do deadly - it tended
to cause a massive over-response in the immune system (a "cytokine
storm"), and so uncharacteristically tended to make fit healthy people
with strong immune systems more sick than the more traditional very old
and very young)

Oooerr.

snip

Ok (and explains why a second jab as mentioned elsewhere might create
a greater action).

Yup, after the first, it's a "novel" pathogen that the body has to learn
how to fight. The second time, it's seen all the wanted posters :-)

Hehe.

snip

Ok thanks. Please let us know how you feel over the next 24 hours. ;-)

Will do - so long as I live :-)

Well, I'm sure we all hope so (well, not all, I'm sure there are
plenty of livestock that might prefer you weren't, if they were given
the choice) and who would sort the diy-Wiki stuff? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 30/03/2021 14:16, T i m wrote:
On 30 Mar 2021 12:37:13 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 30 Mar 2021 at 11:44:02 BST, T i m wrote:

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine ...

If you're not allergic to any component of the jab, then there's no reason for
your body to do anything except, over a small number of weeks, your immune
system notices the foreign item and starts priming your T-cells to eat it up.

So ignoring / discarding any physiological / environmental / unlinked
effects, why do some people seem to suffer quite strong after effects?

The initial part of the trial for vaccines was to test for reactions to
different levels of dose.

I understand that was how AZ came to a conclusion the best efficacy was
from an initial 1/2 dose.

I guess putting any foreign substance into our body is going to get some
reaction, especially one that is intended to provoke an immune response.

On 30/03/2021 16:20, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/03/2021 15:42, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

just the same as the flue jag ....

Is that similar to a Daimler exhaust pipe?



no

--
It wouldn't be the first time reality took theory and conjecture out
behind the shed and gave them a good thrashing

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:49:50 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 30/03/2021 11:44, T i m wrote:
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.


ZOE has the statistics which ISTR are about 20% notice something on the
first jab and a slightly higher proportion on the second jab.

Ah, ok, so not feeling any side effects is by far the most common.

Females
typically more prone to side effects (due to lower blood volume and a
stronger immune reponse according to my tame biochemist).

Ok (handy thing to have in such times). ;-)

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/vacci...eady-had-covid

They have some quite good seminars from time to time.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

My wife was knocked sideways by it the day after.

Oh. ;-(

I just felt a bit
lethargic for a day.

I have days like that anyway so couldn't put it down to the Covid jab.
;-)

Slightly sore shoulder (as in couldn't lie on it
for one night) after 2 days

Ah. Mine was noticeable but only if you poked it (Doctor: Don't poke
it then). ;-)

and that was about it.

Ok, thanks.

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

It is the initial response to the challenge of alien proteins. The mRNA
vaccines being slightly different to the AZ one which uses

.... ?

snip

The most common symptom is slightly swollen lymph nodes nearest to the
vaccination point. Most people won't even notice though.

Yeah, we tend not to notice stuff if it doesn't become apparent on
it's own or doesn't hurt, and may only find it if we actually look for
it.

Whilst I don't have a particularly high threshold of pain (unlike the
Mrs, just as well considering her medical history) I can often endure
levels of discomfort that would send others up the wall. Like, I've
actually lost a padded shoe insole on a walk, meaning it must have
worked it's way out of the std position and everything in between
coming out of my shoe and me not noticing ... or maybe noticing but
ignoring etc.

I think it was something similar that caused me to get a 'Pyogenic
granuloma' under my heel that they suggest could have been caused by
some 'trauma', like walking some miles with a stone in my shoe ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/03/2021 15:42, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

just the same as the flue jag ....

Is that similar to a Daimler exhaust pipe?

Anorak here. Last Daimlers made by Jaguar had an exhaust either side. Jag
two together.

--
*Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A lot of questions, but I doubt if anyone knows the answers. This exact same
thing happens with the flu jab I stopped having mine as I got fed up of
several days of an itchy rash, well I got the same rash from the oxford
injection so one supposes its an allergic one of minor sort.
I read some data on the vaccines and not all the vaccine is the complete
spike part, it is often fragments of it to try to widen the net so to speak
to help fight mutations.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
One for the medical people ... As more and more people take the jab I
was wondering if there are any stats that cover what sort of reaction
they may have to one and why that might be?

eg. We both had the AZ jab (she's had both now) and neither of us had
any reaction at all.

In contrast, a mate, his Mrs and their friend all had theirs and all
three suffered ranging reactions from headaches, overall aching to
nausea etc?

As I understand it, the vaccine (most vaccines) start building our own
antibodies by exposing them to an inactive version of the target virus
(profile?) in readiness for the real / active virus and it's likely
that it's that load on our bodies that causes some of these reactions?

So assuming it is (and not just an allergic reaction etc) if you don't
have any reaction symptoms at all, could it be you haven't been given
the vaccine (a placebo, I'm not suggesting this likely in this case),
that you already had sufficient antibodies for some reason (previous
similar viral infection or just because) so the body didn't react ...
your body doesn't actually react (create antibodies), effectively
meaning that you are no better protected or you just happen to have a
different physiology to those who do seem to have more prominent
symptoms, where the same things are going on re antibody generation
but your body can do it 'easily'?

Cheers, T i m