For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs UKPC.

Another Dave

Another Dave
wibbled on Thursday 15 July 2010 12:02

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave

Stupid way to do it IMO.

The "right" way is to have a Pay and Display machine and refund the cost of
the ticket if you buy more than £5, £10, whatever's worth of shopping in
Lidl (they make tickets with tear off stubs for this, used in Sainsburies'
car park in Tonbridge).

I often do something like you - stupid to keep moving the car contributing
to town congestion.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Another Dave" wrote in message
...
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in town
and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car park. This
morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by UKPC issued the
minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to 2
hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave the
site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They don't
care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave


So ignore it, and when (if) they write to the registered keeper of the car,
point out that they have written to the registered keeper, and suggest they
might want to persue the driver of the vehicle at the time (Which you don't
have to tell them who was)

Toby...

Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave




Christ, £90 is a bit steep. I got a ticket cancelled on a technicality
after taking advice from this site

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Might be worth a try

Toby wrote:
"Another Dave" wrote in message
...
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in town
and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car park. This
morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by UKPC issued the
minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to 2
hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave the
site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They don't
care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave


So ignore it, and when (if) they write to the registered keeper of the car,
point out that they have written to the registered keeper, and suggest they
might want to persue the driver of the vehicle at the time (Which you don't
have to tell them who was)

Toby...


Yes, I think this thread probably sums it up

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=1490213

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Another Dave
saying something like:

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

****'em, they're a bunch of robbing *******s who just love to shaft
people. I was watching 'V' last night - some good stuff in that.
If enough people complain about it, Lidl might do something - ****ing
off their customers isn't a good move.

In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
I was watching 'V' last night - some good stuff in that.
Yeah, I watched it again. Here in France it was Bastille
day, so fireworks outside and also on the 'box'

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

I bet being with gamblers anonymous will work this time

Tim Watts wrote:
Another Dave
wibbled on Thursday 15 July 2010 12:02

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave

Stupid way to do it IMO.

The "right" way is to have a Pay and Display machine and refund the cost of
the ticket if you buy more than £5, £10, whatever's worth of shopping in
Lidl (they make tickets with tear off stubs for this, used in Sainsburies'
car park in Tonbridge).

I often do something like you - stupid to keep moving the car contributing
to town congestion.



The right way to do it is either not to charge at all, unless you exceed
say 5 hours, or have a barrier and charge unless you can show aq vlid
invoice for goods ijn excess of some serious money.

Waitrose does both: They do not mind being used as a town center car
park provided you still do the weekly shopping there.

Its only whne you hand parking over to a company that has to make a
profit out of it that you start getting jobsworths whose jobs depend on
issuing lots of swingeing fines, that people get ****ed off with the
whole affair.

There are whole towns run like that that I simply don't go to any more.

Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave
and issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.
Another Dave

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've got any
right to feel aggrieved about it. By your own admission you've been doing
this and getting away with it for years and yet now you've been caught
you're whingeing about it on here??

There's a retail park around here that's always difficult to find a parking
space on - no wonder if the car park is full of cars belonging to *******
like you who are somewhere else. This is exactly WHY retail parks are
introducing these schemes.

Common courtesy and consideration for others obviously mean nothing to you
do they? Just why, exactly, do you think it's acceptable to park up in one
shopping place and then go do your shopping elsewhere?

On Jul 15, 2:53*pm, "John" wrote:
Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave
and issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.
Another Dave

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've got any
right to feel aggrieved about it. By your own admission you've been doing
this and getting away with it for years and yet now you've been caught
you're whingeing about it on here??

There's a retail park around here that's always difficult to find a parking
space on - no wonder if the car park is full of cars belonging to *******
like you who are somewhere else. This is exactly WHY retail parks are
introducing these schemes.

Common courtesy and consideration for others obviously mean nothing to you
do they? Just why, exactly, do you think it's acceptable to park up in one
shopping place and then go do your shopping elsewhere?

Which part of "returned to shop in Lidl" didn't you understand, John?

If Lidl allow 2 hrs parking on condition that you shop there, what
difference does it make to them whether you use some of that 2 hrs to
shop elsewhere too or if you buy a can of beans and then spend the
rest of the two hours reading the paper, having a fag and laughing at
self-righteous ******* called John circling the carpark in their
invalid carriages?

mike wrote:
On Jul 15, 2:53 pm, "John" wrote:
Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must
not leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you
leave and issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger
of a ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that
employs UKPC.
Another Dave

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've
got any right to feel aggrieved about it. By your own admission
you've been doing this and getting away with it for years and yet
now you've been caught you're whingeing about it on here??

There's a retail park around here that's always difficult to find a
parking space on - no wonder if the car park is full of cars
belonging to ******* like you who are somewhere else. This is
exactly WHY retail parks are introducing these schemes.

Common courtesy and consideration for others obviously mean nothing
to you do they? Just why, exactly, do you think it's acceptable to
park up in one shopping place and then go do your shopping elsewhere?

Which part of "returned to shop in Lidl" didn't you understand, John?

Oh, I understood it quite alright thanks. Probably about 10 minutes or less
spent in Lidl justifies hours using a parking space that others may want to
use does it? No, it doesn't.

If Lidl allow 2 hrs parking on condition that you shop there, what
difference does it make to them whether you use some of that 2 hrs to
shop elsewhere too or if you buy a can of beans and then spend the
rest of the two hours reading the paper, having a fag and laughing at
self-righteous ******* called John circling the carpark in their
invalid carriages?

The sign says 2 hours now but I'll bet "Another Dave" left his car there
longer than 2 hours in the months and years before Lidl got UKPC in and the
sign appeared. And if others were doing it as well, maybe Lidl had a car
park full of cars that would have implied great takings for the day but
actually amounted to very little revenue, so they felt they had to get a
company in to look after the car park.

On 15/07/2010 15:21, mike wrote:


Which part of "returned to shop in Lidl" didn't you understand, John?

If Lidl allow 2 hrs parking on condition that you shop there, what
difference does it make to them whether you use some of that 2 hrs to
shop elsewhere too or if you buy a can of beans and then spend the
rest of the two hours reading the paper, having a fag and laughing at
self-righteous ******* called John circling the carpark in their
invalid carriages?

He also seems to have a shaky idea of the space-time continuum - if I
weren't parked in Lidl, I would be parked across the road at Tesco or in
the municipal car park round the corner.

Incidentally, Uttoxeter is a small town in rural Staffordshire, not
central London. NO car parks EVER get even half full.

Another Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "John" saying
something like:

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've got any
right to feel aggrieved about it

Is that the Tiscali ****** again? Certainly reads like it.

On 15/07/10 14:53, John wrote:
Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave
and issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.
Another Dave

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've got any
right to feel aggrieved about it. By your own admission you've been doing
this and getting away with it for years and yet now you've been caught
you're whingeing about it on here??

There's a retail park around here that's always difficult to find a parking
space on - no wonder if the car park is full of cars belonging to *******
like you who are somewhere else. This is exactly WHY retail parks are
introducing these schemes.

Common courtesy and consideration for others obviously mean nothing to you
do they? Just why, exactly, do you think it's acceptable to park up in one
shopping place and then go do your shopping elsewhere?


No,
we pop into town, park at Lidl,
spend at Lidl,
then nip to the chemist to get things Lidl dont sell.

If the OP can find receipts from many LIDL visits
then I'd hassle them for the money back,
write to the local paper,
embarass the rotters.

The 2 hour limit is fair,
fining you for going to the chemist (or public toilets - do they have
toilets in your LIDL?
is rotten.

Was the carpark full up?

[g]

Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

Exactly the same scam is operating in the local retail park. First exposed
in the local rag when a pensioner left the car park to use the public
toilets opposite (no toilets on retail park).

He was shopping in the B&Q and had the till reciepts. Made page 2 with
pictures of him outside B&Q. Ticket cancelled.

Local Wickes has a similar thing, maximum 1 hour stay. I went in to price
up some stuff, then had a bacon roll at the stall in the car park & made a
few calls, so I overstayed the hour.

Wrote to Wickes & the parking company on two fronts; reminding Wickes of
the £5K I spent with them last year and also claiming that under The Unfair
Contract Terms Act fines or charges cannot be punative, but must reflect any
loss suffered. I said that if they could prove Wickes lost £90 because I
was in a space for over an hour I would pay up, or they could take me to
court.

Surprise surprise the both fell over & appologised.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:02:41 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

Setting aside that you did break the rules, ignore the 'ticket'. Do
not enter any communication with them at all. They will write to you
several times over a period of months making threats about legal
action but ultimately nothing will come of it.

I have today heard from Control Account plc acting on behalf of Euro
Car Parks who claimed that I parked in a car park I don't even know
the location of more than100 miles from where I live last November. In
December, when they first wrote to me, they wanted £50. In March, in a
notice before action, they wanted £79.38. Now they will settle for £50
to avoid the initial expense of litigation. In my case they've made a
mistake but if you keep your nerve you'll be OK.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:41:57 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Another Dave
wibbled on Thursday 15 July 2010 12:02

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave

Stupid way to do it IMO.

The "right" way is to have a Pay and Display machine and refund the cost of
the ticket if you buy more than £5, £10, whatever's worth of shopping in
Lidl (they make tickets with tear off stubs for this, used in Sainsburies'
car park in Tonbridge).

I often do something like you - stupid to keep moving the car contributing
to town congestion.

I hate those pay and displays. Firstly I've frequently not got any change
in my pocket - if I do, it gets used up in the drinks machine at work or
dropped into the charity box next to it (and I can't keep change in the
car, 'cos with young kids, they always "find" it!) Secondly, I always
forget to claim the parking back when I pay for my shopping and with three
kids fussing around, I'm not going back to customer services to do it!

Why does everywhere expect you to have change on you? Quite often in large
amounts - one car park I decided not to use charged £9 and only took coins.

Our local hospital has just declared (finally) that it will stop charging
for parking in September - just what idiot decided to charge for parking at
a hospital with A&E and a maternity unit? Who's in any condition to find
money under those circumstances? A friend of mine was told hard luck and he
may get clamped when he drove there with two broken fingers when his only
change was in a tight jeans pocket on the side with the broken fingers! I
could understand if it was in a town centre and people might park there all
day while they work, but there is nothing else around to park there for -
and the council kindly made the parking on the road outside 30 minutes
only.

SteveW

On Jul 16, 7:00 am, Steve Walker wrote:

Our local hospital has just declared (finally) that it will stop charging
for parking in September - just what idiot decided to charge for parking at
a hospital with A&E and a maternity unit?

A hospital in NZ has a chapel on the grounds. A parking warden tried
to wheel clamp a hearse parked outside the chapel. The funeral was for
a gang member, and all his scary friends forcibly restrained the
warden from clamping.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:53:09 +0100, "John" wrote:

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.
Another Dave

Whilst I can't agree with Lidl's use of UKPC, I hardly think you've got any
right to feel aggrieved about it. By your own admission you've been doing
this and getting away with it for years

Yes, a mutually beneficial arrangement under a different set of terms.

and yet now you've been caught
you're whingeing about it on here??

There's a retail park around here that's always difficult to find a parking
space on - no wonder if the car park is full of cars belonging to *******

There's absolutely zero probability of that.

like you who are somewhere else. This is exactly WHY retail parks are
introducing these schemes.


Why and there was I thinking the car park operator had been offered a
cut of the proceeds. I must be stupid.

Common courtesy and consideration for others obviously mean nothing to you
do they?

All the major supermarkets around here (We've all except Waitrose)
within 3 Km plus the White Rose shopping centre offer free
uncontrolled parking and have done so for years, and I certainly owe
no duty of consideration to Reggie Kray (Successors Ltd) trading as
Shyster, Flywheel and Shyster car parking controls.

Just why, exactly, do you think it's acceptable to park up in one
shopping place and then go do your shopping elsewhere?

They offer car parking, I gratefully accept. The establishments
"Elsewhere"might well recprocate by offering parking of their own.

Should they so choose It would be perfectly easy for them to make a 2
quid (say) charge and offer a refund at the till against a £5.00 (or
whatever) purchase. Many do.

Are you trying to tell us you move the car to a new parking space
every time you go from the supermarket to the bank, to the post
office, building society etc ?

Whatever, there is no legal basis for imposing a £90.00 charge. In
England a private company cannot impose penalties of their own
(whatever next?), they can only make a charge for carrying out a
service they deliver under a freely negotiated contract, but no such
contract exists. A contract is not established merely by one party
sticking a notice up on a lamp post..

Derek

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:56:14 +0100, Peter Johnson
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:02:41 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

Setting aside that you did break the rules,

He never did agree to this set of rules. Simples.

Indeed if he has been parking there for years there would be an
argument to say that the operative set of rules are those established
by custom and practice over many years. IE free unmetered parking.

ignore the 'ticket'. Do
not enter any communication with them at all. They will write to you
several times over a period of months making threats about legal
action but ultimately nothing will come of it.

I have today heard from Control Account plc acting on behalf of Euro
Car Parks who claimed that I parked in a car park I don't even know
the location of more than100 miles from where I live last November. In
December, when they first wrote to me, they wanted £50. In March, in a
notice before action, they wanted £79.38. Now they will settle for £50
to avoid the initial expense of litigation. In my case they've made a
mistake but if you keep your nerve you'll be OK.

Derek

On 15/07/2010 12:02, Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and
issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave



If Lidll have a problem with lack of space in their car park the thing
to do is to reduce the parking time from 2hrs to something less than one
hour. How long does it take to shop in Lidls ? half an hour is probably
enough, add another say 15 mins for the slow coaches, surely that's the
sensible approach.
Don

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:26:05 +0100, Donwill wrote:
On 15/07/2010 12:02, Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and
issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave



If Lidll have a problem with lack of space in their car park the thing
to do is to reduce the parking time from 2hrs to something less than one
hour. How long does it take to shop in Lidls ? half an hour is probably
enough, add another say 15 mins for the slow coaches, surely that's the
sensible approach.
Don

But if that's as long as it takes (and no-one overstays by leaving the
site) then there's nothing to be gained from dropping the limit from 2 hours.
Since everyone would be in-parked-shopped-out in the 45 minutes it takes.
Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.

--
www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/page2.php

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...

Whatever, there is no legal basis for imposing a £90.00 charge. In
England a private company cannot impose penalties of their own
(whatever next?), they can only make a charge for carrying out a
service they deliver under a freely negotiated contract, but no such
contract exists. A contract is not established merely by one party
sticking a notice up on a lamp post..

Derek

I agree with the penalty charge point, but a contract can be entered into by
a company putting up a clear, legible and prominent notice, you reading it
and then you taking an action that implies accepting its terms, like parking
underneath it.

If these sort of contracts were not legal then the clamping companies would
not be the profitable organisations they are in England today.

Regards
Bruce

On 16/07/2010 08:39, pete wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:26:05 +0100, Donwill wrote:

On 15/07/2010 12:02, Another Dave wrote:

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and
issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave




If Lidll have a problem with lack of space in their car park the thing
to do is to reduce the parking time from 2hrs to something less than one
hour. How long does it take to shop in Lidls ? half an hour is probably
enough, add another say 15 mins for the slow coaches, surely that's the
sensible approach.
Don

But if that's as long as it takes (and no-one overstays by leaving the
site) then there's nothing to be gained from dropping the limit from 2 hours.
Since everyone would be in-parked-shopped-out in the 45 minutes it takes.
Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.


At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two hours
otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion. If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the parking
spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage people who
take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering away to do their
shopping at other places.
Don
Don

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:19:21 +0100, Donwill wrote:
On 16/07/2010 08:39, pete wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:26:05 +0100, Donwill wrote:

On 15/07/2010 12:02, Another Dave wrote:

For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted
to 2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not
leave the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and
issue a ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a
ticket). They don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs
UKPC.

Another Dave




If Lidll have a problem with lack of space in their car park the thing
to do is to reduce the parking time from 2hrs to something less than one
hour. How long does it take to shop in Lidls ? half an hour is probably
enough, add another say 15 mins for the slow coaches, surely that's the
sensible approach.
Don

But if that's as long as it takes (and no-one overstays by leaving the
site) then there's nothing to be gained from dropping the limit from 2 hours.
Since everyone would be in-parked-shopped-out in the 45 minutes it takes.
Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.


At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two hours
otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion. If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the parking
spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage people who
take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering away to do their
shopping at other places.

It would only double the capacity if everyone who uses it now stayed to
the maximum time allowed - 2 hours. However if they only stay for the time
it takes them to shop, then until the parking time limit is less than this,
no reduction will have an effect.
What Lidl have done in this case is effectively say "you can only stay for
as long as your shopping in the store takes, OR for 2 hours: whichever is
the shorter".
Since we've agreed that the median time is somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes
the 2 hour limit becomes moot. Consequently reducing this will not increase
the number of vacant parking spots.

--
www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.org/page2.php

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:08:36 +0100, "BruceB" wrote:



"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
.. .

Whatever, there is no legal basis for imposing a £90.00 charge. In
England a private company cannot impose penalties of their own
(whatever next?), they can only make a charge for carrying out a
service they deliver under a freely negotiated contract, but no such
contract exists. A contract is not established merely by one party
sticking a notice up on a lamp post..

Derek

I agree with the penalty charge point, but a contract can be entered into by
a company putting up a clear, legible and prominent notice, you reading it
and then you taking an action that implies accepting its terms, like parking
underneath it.


How do they prove you read it,, are literate, and understand English ?

How do they prove it was you driving the car?

Anyhow, it is most certainly not the case if there is no provision for
you to negotiate the terms of the contract. That means someone from
the parking outfit has to be there with authority to vary terms and
ultimately enforce your removal from the land (within the provisions
of the law)..

If these sort of contracts were not legal then the clamping companies would
not be the profitable organisations they are in England today.


Who says they are profitable. They are usually just a gang of ex (?)
-criminal chancers trying to cash in on easy money. Communications
from them usually originate from a set of nested incestuous companies
who's sole function is to intimidate the Oi Polloi into coughing up.

Under the last government there was always the possibility that their
activities could eventually be legalised so that Prescott's (spit)
unsavoury mates could cash in . Think Klondike all over again.

FWIR only one such case has been awarded against a motorist. That
because he thought his case was so self evident he didn't even bother
arguing it in court. but the judge took the view that it wasn't down
to him to argue the case for one or other party.

Derek

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:19:21 +0100, Donwill
wrote:


Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.


At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two hours
otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion.

Charging £90 for parking 3 minutes over in a "Free" car park cannot by
any stretch of their imagination be described as fair.

Even if a claim against the motorist was to succeed the car park
operator can only claim for their losses (Or the actual cost to them).

If they say the car park is free then out of their own mouths they
have established the cost basis of operating the parking space. In
this respect t is immaterial where you go once you have left the car.

If Lidl want to reserve spaces for/give precedence to their own
customers whilst in the store they can do so 1000 ways without trying
to take £90.00 off of ordinary shoppers.

In fact one wonders what the magical attraction of the £90.00 charge
is. - Oh yes I forgot, you can spend it . :-))

If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the parking
spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage people who
take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering away to do their
shopping at other places.

If you are trying to tell us you would move your car out of a
supermarket car parking space if you had to go to a Bank or the Post
Office, in the full knowledge that there would be no parking there I
don't believe you.

Pull the other one - it's got bells on.

Derek

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:19:21 +0100, Donwill
wrote:


Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.


At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two hours
otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion.

Charging £90 for parking 3 minutes over in a "Free" car park cannot by
any stretch of their imagination be described as fair.

Even if a claim against the motorist was to succeed the car park
operator can only claim for their losses (Or the actual cost to them).

If they say the car park is free then out of their own mouths they
have established the cost basis of operating the parking space. In
this respect t is immaterial where you go once you have left the car.

If Lidl want to reserve spaces for/give precedence to their own
customers whilst in the store they can do so 1000 ways without trying
to take £90.00 off of ordinary shoppers.

In fact one wonders what the magical attraction of the £90.00 charge
is. - Oh yes I forgot, you can spend it . :-))

If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the parking
spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage people who
take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering away to do their
shopping at other places.

If you are trying to tell us you would move your car out of a
supermarket car parking space if you had to go to a Bank or the Post
Office, in the full knowledge that there would be no parking there I
don't believe you.

Pull the other one - it's got bells on.

Derek

Given that some councils are contracting parking enforcement out to
cowboy organisations, just as Lidl have done, what are the legal
implications of that? Presumably the council will be the ones taking you
to court, the ticket having been issued on their behalf. I suppose it's
unlikely Lidl would take you to court, whereas the council might well do.

On 15 July, 12:02, Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

*From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs UKPC.

Another Dave

AFAIAA these charges are uneforceable ...

Derek Geldard wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:19:21 +0100, Donwill
wrote:


Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and
people go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.


At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two
hours otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion.

Charging £90 for parking 3 minutes over in a "Free" car park cannot by
any stretch of their imagination be described as fair.

Even if a claim against the motorist was to succeed the car park
operator can only claim for their losses (Or the actual cost to them).

If they say the car park is free then out of their own mouths they
have established the cost basis of operating the parking space. In
this respect t is immaterial where you go once you have left the car.

If Lidl want to reserve spaces for/give precedence to their own
customers whilst in the store they can do so 1000 ways without trying
to take £90.00 off of ordinary shoppers.

In fact one wonders what the magical attraction of the £90.00 charge
is. - Oh yes I forgot, you can spend it . :-))

If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the
parking spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage
people who take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering
away to do their shopping at other places.

If you are trying to tell us you would move your car out of a
supermarket car parking space if you had to go to a Bank or the Post
Office, in the full knowledge that there would be no parking there I
don't believe you.

The point that you (and everyone else it would seem) are missing is that it
is not a _public_ car park, it is _Lidl's_ car park. I assume that when Lidl
were spending the time, money and effort to build a car park outside their
shop, they were intending it to be for their own customers. The fact that
they didn't explicitly state this on a sign somewhere, or barrier it off to
all except Lidl customers should not matter. The car park is on their land,
outside their store, so by implication the car park is for their customers.

If your house has a driveway and/or a garage, the builder put it there for
the homeowner to use, not the public.

If you want to go to the bank or the Post Office and do general shopping,
use a public car park.

On 16 July, 09:08, "BruceB" wrote:
"Derek Geldard" wrote in message

...

Whatever, there is no legal basis for imposing a £90.00 charge. In
England a private company cannot impose penalties of their own
(whatever next?), they can only make a charge for carrying out a
service they deliver under a freely negotiated contract, but no such
contract exists. A contract is not established merely by one party
sticking a notice up on a lamp post..

Derek

I agree with the penalty charge point, but a contract can be entered into by
a company putting up a clear, legible and prominent notice, you reading it
and then you taking an action that implies accepting its terms, like parking
underneath it.

This is contentious. No UK court has ruled that it *is* acceptable ...


If these sort of contracts were not legal then the clamping companies would
not be the profitable organisations they are in England today.

A *clamping* company has one advantage: they will get their money
before the clamp comes off.

If someone were to get their car clamped, and then apply to the courts
to instruct the clampers to remove the clamp (and file a civil suite
for damages) then a court would be able to rule on the validity of the
contract. Many people have speculated it would not withstand such
scrutiny. Otherwise you, or I could put a small sign on our front door
saying that we charge £10 to press the doorbell ...

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:45:12 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:


Given that some councils are contracting parking enforcement out to
cowboy organisations, just as Lidl have done, what are the legal
implications of that?

Then all bets are off.

But the Council still have to comply with rules re signeage and double
yellow lines etc. It seems many don't. (Eg. double yellow lines have
to be "closed" at the ends with a yellow bar at ninety degrees)

Presumably the council will be the ones taking you
to court, the ticket having been issued on their behalf. I suppose it's
unlikely Lidl would take you to court, whereas the council might well do.

Yes but at least you have right of appeal at a legally constituted
tribunal, unlike Shyster, Grabbit & Waltzoff.

Derek

On 16 July, 11:45, stuart noble wrote:
Derek Geldard wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:19:21 +0100, Donwill
wrote:

Unless that Lidls car park is a destination in its own right and people
go there for the experience - though I can't imagine why.

At the moment people know that they cannot park for more than two hours
otherwise they will be penalised quite fairly in my opinion.

Charging £90 for parking 3 minutes over in a "Free" car park cannot by
any stretch of their imagination be described as fair.

Even if a claim against the motorist was to succeed the car park
operator can only claim for their losses (Or the actual cost to them).

If they say the car park is free then out of their own mouths they
have established the cost basis of operating the parking space. In
this respect t is immaterial where you go once you have left the car.

If Lidl want to reserve spaces for/give precedence to their own
customers whilst in the store they can do so 1000 ways without trying
to take £90.00 off of ordinary shoppers.

In fact one wonders what the magical attraction of the £90.00 charge
is. - Oh yes I forgot, you can spend it . *:-))

If they
reduced it to one hour then in theory it should have twice the parking
spaces available for genuine Lidl shoppers, and discourage people who
take advantage of Lidl car parking spaces by wandering away to do their
shopping at other places.

If you are trying to tell us you would move your car out of a
supermarket car parking space if you had to go to a Bank or the Post
Office, in the full knowledge that there would be no parking there I
don't believe you.

Pull the other one - it's got bells on.

Derek

Given that some councils are contracting parking enforcement out to
cowboy organisations, just as Lidl have done, what are the legal
implications of that? Presumably the council will be the ones taking you
to court, the ticket having been issued on their behalf. I suppose it's
unlikely Lidl would take you to court, whereas the council might well do.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Local authorities have powers granted by statute, and (presumably) are
entitled to devolve these powers to contracted bodies.

The agency in question here has no statutory standing.

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...

How do they prove you read it,, are literate, and understand English ?

How do they prove it was you driving the car?

In the normal way, balance of probabilities when sitting in front of the
judge sitting in the small claims court. If you understand the English the
judge speaks to you he is likely to infer you can read a sign. More
difficult to prove it was you driving if you are willing to lie to the
judge. But if the have photo/video or you are the registered keeper with
insurance in your name only then do the math - again balance of
probabilities applies.


Anyhow, it is most certainly not the case if there is no provision for
you to negotiate the terms of the contract.

You are dreaming. It is perfectly possible under English law to enter a
contract by your actions without negotiation. Do you negotiate the cost of
electricity, water, gas etc before you start using it when you move into a
house? Do you fill your tank with petrol and then negotiate a price?



Who says they are profitable.

I assert it. Surely it is obvious that if it were not profitable then the
close to criminal types engaged in clamping activities would not be doing
it. I feel fairly sure I could make a profit charging £250 a time to
unclamp cars.


FWIR only one such case has been awarded against a motorist. That
because he thought his case was so self evident he didn't even bother
arguing it in court. but the judge took the view that it wasn't down
to him to argue the case for one or other party.

But you could look at it the other way and say that the millions of
motorists who have paid up and not taken the parking or clamping company to
court have not done so because the likelihood of them winning was low.


I am not saying these implied contracts are always fair in the sense of the
Unfair Contracts Terms Act nor that they may not fall foul of the
prohibition of 'penalties' in normal contract law, just that there is
nothing in principle to stop you entering into a contract by your actions.

Regards
Bruce

On Jul 15, 3:38*pm, "John" wrote:

Oh, I understood it quite alright thanks. Probably about 10 minutes or less
spent in Lidl justifies hours using a parking space that others may want to
use does it? No, it doesn't.

Yes, it does, John. Lidl say so on the notice. 2 hrs parking for
customers. If you want to bum round on site for 2 hrs and leave with
nothing more than a tin of beans, that's fine with them. It must be
terribly frustrating for you that reality doesn't coincide with your
fantasy world.

And what planet do you live in where people are queuing up to get in a
Lidl carpark?


The sign says 2 hours now but I'll bet "Another Dave" left his car there
longer than 2 hours in the months and years before Lidl got UKPC in and the
sign appeared.

And I'll bet you're wearing your mother's clothes whilst her corpse
moulders in the cellar. It's all supposition isn't it, John?


And if others were doing it as well, maybe Lidl had a car
park full of cars that would have implied great takings for the day but
actually amounted to very little revenue, so they felt they had to get a
company in to look after the car park.

If... maybe... felt...

Thanks for sharing your daydreams, John.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:59:35 +0100, "John" wrote:



The point that you (and everyone else it would seem) are missing is that it
is not a _public_ car park, it is _Lidl's_ car park.

T%hey can build a full scale model of the Empire State Building for
all I care.

I assume that when Lidl
were spending the time, money and effort to build a car park outside their
shop, they were intending it to be for their own customers. The fact that
they didn't explicitly state this on a sign somewhere, or barrier it off to
all except Lidl customers should not matter.

Well it does, trust me.

The car park is on their land,
outside their store, so by implication the car park is for their customers.


Perfectly fine. Motorists parking without the permission of Lidl are
trespassers. There is provision within the law for them to get redress
through the courts, story - end of.

If your house has a driveway and/or a garage, the builder put it there for
the homeowner to use, not the public.

Correct, if someone uninvited were to park on my drive I'd tell them
to leave. I don't recall Lidl doing any such thing their car
park, it would seem to be a rather ridiculous thing to do.

BTW I believe the law treats trespassers on commercial properties
differently to trespassers in someone's house and the police would
remove them, Viz Centre Point. They most certainly wouldn't expend
their resouces moving cars from Lidl's car park.


If you want to go to the bank or the Post Office and do general shopping,
use a public car park.


I keep asking this ... :-((

Are you trying to tell us you would move your car out of a supermarket
parking space if you had to go to post a letter, pay in a cheque
(etc) even if you knew there would be no parking available near the
postbox , bank etc ?

If so I don't believe you.

Derek

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 03:54:46 -0700 (PDT), Jethro
wrote:

On 15 July, 12:02, Another Dave wrote:
For years I've parked at Lidl in Uttoxeter. I've done my shopping in
town and returned to shop in Lidl; fair enough I have used their car
park. This morning I returned to find a £90 parking ticket issued by
UKPC issued the minute I left Lidl's car park.

There is a sign which says in BIG letters that parking is restricted to
2 hours and below this, in much smaller letters, that you must not leave
the site. It appears they employ somebody to watch you leave and issue a
ticket (but not to warn you that you're in danger of a ticket). They
don't care if you shop at Lidl or not.

*From now on I won't be shopping at Lidl or anywhere else that employs UKPC.

Another Dave

AFAIAA these charges are uneforceable ...

All in all they fall down on about 10 grounds.

There is nothing about them which is legal.

Derek

On 16/07/2010 11:59, John wrote:

The point that you (and everyone else it would seem) are missing is that it
is not a _public_ car park, it is _Lidl's_ car park. I assume that when Lidl
were spending the time, money and effort to build a car park outside their
shop, they were intending it to be for their own customers. The fact that
they didn't explicitly state this on a sign somewhere, or barrier it off to
all except Lidl customers should not matter. The car park is on their land,
outside their store, so by implication the car park is for their customers.

The OP is a customer of Lidl. So where's the problem?

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:14:47 +0100, "BruceB" wrote:



"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
.. .

How do they prove you read it,, are literate, and understand English ?

How do they prove it was you driving the car?

In the normal way, balance of probabilities when sitting in front of the
judge sitting in the small claims court. If you understand the English the
judge speaks to you he is likely to infer you can read a sign.

Perhaps not well enough to understand a contract

More
difficult to prove it was you driving if you are willing to lie to the
judge.

The judge will not ask the question.

But if the have photo/video or you are the registered keeper with
insurance in your name only then do the math - again balance of
probabilities applies.


Reg no. I can't accept. I have several cars driven by all drivers in
the family, at one time I was a Company Secretary and IIRC had a
couple of dozen cars registered in my name.

It would have to be a good photograph indeed (Probably taken from a
fixed camera) to identify me to the right standard driving behind a
car windscreen.


Anyhow, it is most certainly not the case if there is no provision for
you to negotiate the terms of the contract.

You are dreaming. It is perfectly possible under English law to enter a
contract by your actions without negotiation. Do you negotiate the cost of
electricity, water, gas etc before you start using it when you move into a
house?

Yes to all. But prices don't differ so much as to make it worth
spending much time on the task whilst the moving men are waiting on
the drive chafing at the bit.

Do you fill your tank with petrol and then negotiate a price?

I do it beforehand. True my negotiating position is on the weak side.
Effectively I accept their price or decline it

What position are you in if you draw fuel with no intention of paying
the price displayed. It would appear to be theft.

I do believe "abstracting electricity" (and gas) is an offence in it's
own right as many Cannabis growers have found out to their cost.



Who says they are profitable.

I assert it.

Hmm, some figures would be nice, but 1 mega-quid country wide is not a
whole lot of money (It's 3 houses round here. 1 in Gerrards Cross).

Surely it is obvious that if it were not profitable then the
close to criminal types engaged in clamping activities would not be doing
it. I feel fairly sure I could make a profit charging £250 a time to
unclamp cars.


1 a day and your earnings are on a par with a painter /decorator.
Won't pay many Solicitors/Bailffs/Heavies.


FWIR only one such case has been awarded against a motorist. That
because he thought his case was so self evident he didn't even bother
arguing it in court. but the judge took the view that it wasn't down
to him to argue the case for one or other party.

But you could look at it the other way and say that the millions of
motorists who have paid up and not taken the parking or clamping company to
court have not done so because the likelihood of them winning was low.

The ones of my aquaintance that paid up did so because the penalty
charge invoice was got up to look like an official legal document from
the proper authority, and they knew no better.

I am not saying these implied contracts are always fair in the sense of the
Unfair Contracts Terms Act nor that they may not fall foul of the
prohibition of 'penalties' in normal contract law, just that there is
nothing in principle to stop you entering into a contract by your actions.


You reckon I am bound by a piece of paper I have not seen stuck to a
lamp post in the trees round the corner ? (My particular instance).

In another instance at Mickey D's I simply didn't bother to read the
notice, thought it was an advert . Am I legally bound to read them
all??

How about that then Eh?

Derek

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:14:47 +0100, "BruceB" wrote:


You reckon I am bound by a piece of paper I have not seen stuck to a
lamp post in the trees round the corner ? (My particular instance).

In another instance at Mickey D's I simply didn't bother to read the
notice, thought it was an advert . Am I legally bound to read them
all??

How about that then Eh?

Derek


Not what I said at all. It comes down to reasonableness and the companies
involved are making efforts to make their signs appear reasonable.

Some cases have gone to court and sometimes those parking have lost. For
example:

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/ne...st-judge-rules

Regards
Bruce