No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

Ask for photographic evidence of the "alleged" offence.
Request a copy of the original ticket.
Suggest most strongly that they have the wrong vehicle and until such
evidence is produced you will ignore their requests to assist in their
enquiries

Or

Chuck it in the bin

Try

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/



On Dec 4, 3:28 pm, Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

In article ,
Stuart Noble wrote:

No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on
here think about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci Park
Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a
parking offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus
non-payment surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it.
No ticket was issued at the time (but could have been a camera I
suppose), and the Notice to Owner allegedly sent on 5th October
was never received. Net result as things stand is I lose the
right to pay the original amount, or to challenge the ticket.
Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope, size 8 font,
cunningly disguised as junk mail. Anyone know any legal stuff
about all this?

Some useful information at http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk

--
Tony Williams.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:28:04 UTC, Stuart Noble
wrote:


No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

There's a website somewhere that helps people in your situation. Can't
remember what it is, but have a little Google.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

"Stuart Noble" wrote

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
snip...

Not a response, but another moan.
SWMBO got a fine for not displaying valid ticket (it had dropped off).
Sent the correctly purchased ticket off and was told this is not sufficient
to avoid fine as the ticket had not been displayed!!!!

Phil

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

First of all you have to ask yourself are you denying the "offence" or
trying to get off for something you have
done?

Then work out your diy strategy

Have you spoken to parking enforcement at your local council ?

Approach the matter in a cool calm way. Explain what has happened. Offer to
send them copies of
letter and packaging. Ask for proof of the alleged offence - when /where /
how etc
What colour and model of car - Is it possible your number plates have been
cloned
Ask if the council have sold the "debt" on to Vinci.

If you feel aggreived at the way you have been treated you could enlist the
support of your local rag or
radio station

It might also be possible to ask DVLA or whatever they are called these days
and ask if they have been requested to
release your details

I would do that first before contacting Vinci.

You should also be able to find out company details online fairly easily if
you want to check their details out

from www
VINCI Park UK Group
Portsoken House
155-157, Minories
London
EC3N 1LJ
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7977 0800
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7481 1308

Robbo wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

Ask for photographic evidence of the "alleged" offence.
Request a copy of the original ticket.
Suggest most strongly that they have the wrong vehicle and until such
evidence is produced you will ignore their requests to assist in their
enquiries

Or

Chuck it in the bin



Thanks for the advice
No doubt the council can provide a copy of the ticket, but the question
is whether it was ever attached to the vehicle. Similarly, a copy of the
notice to owner is easy to provide, but who's to say it was actually
sent? I can't help thinking a threat to take you to court in 14 days
might have been sent recorded delivery.
Not sure if they are able, or obliged, to provide photographic evidence,
but I'll certainly give that a go.
As for chucking it in the bin, my guess is the contractors want you to
do that. Cut costs by only sending the final demand and then they can
present the council with a tidy list of offences which have not been
contested or paid at the reduced amount.

DMac wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

First of all you have to ask yourself are you denying the "offence" or
trying to get off for something you have
done?

Then work out your diy strategy

Have you spoken to parking enforcement at your local council ?

Approach the matter in a cool calm way. Explain what has happened. Offer to
send them copies of
letter and packaging. Ask for proof of the alleged offence - when /where /
how etc
What colour and model of car - Is it possible your number plates have been
cloned
Ask if the council have sold the "debt" on to Vinci.

If you feel aggreived at the way you have been treated you could enlist the
support of your local rag or
radio station

It might also be possible to ask DVLA or whatever they are called these days
and ask if they have been requested to
release your details

I would do that first before contacting Vinci.

You should also be able to find out company details online fairly easily if
you want to check their details out

from www
VINCI Park UK Group
Portsoken House
155-157, Minories
London
EC3N 1LJ
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7977 0800
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7481 1308






Had I found a ticket on my windscreen, I'd have cursed and paid up.
Being told for the first time 4 months later that you owe the fine plus
50% is a different matter.
If the council turn the clock back to the original date and allow the
option to appeal, I'll be happy with that.
Now you mention it, I'm not sure if Vinci issue the tickets or just
collect debts.

TheScullster wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote
Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
snip...

Not a response, but another moan.
SWMBO got a fine for not displaying valid ticket (it had dropped off).
Sent the correctly purchased ticket off and was told this is not sufficient
to avoid fine as the ticket had not been displayed!!!!

Phil



That's wicked, and not in any way "reasonable" (which I believe councils
are required to be). I'd certainly appeal. Possibly the adhesive was faulty?

Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a
parking offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was
issued at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the
Notice to Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in
a plain envelope, size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

Round here Vinci attendants carry digital cameras to capture images of the
misdemeanor and also an image of the ticket placed on the windscreen. Ask to
see proof that the ticket was attached to the screen.

They are complete and utter *******s and work past the letter of the law.
There was uproar in my local area within weeks of them taking over the
contract from the council. Issuing tickets to correctly parked vehicles was
the main bone of contention.

Also, uk.legal.moderated could be a help.

shaun wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a
parking offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was
issued at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the
Notice to Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in
a plain envelope, size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

Round here Vinci attendants carry digital cameras to capture images of the
misdemeanor and also an image of the ticket placed on the windscreen. Ask to
see proof that the ticket was attached to the screen.

Cheers Shaun. I shall be very chuffed indeed if that's the system they
operate here. They might have snapped the car from behind a bush but
there won't be a ticket on it

They are complete and utter *******s and work past the letter of the law.
There was uproar in my local area within weeks of them taking over the
contract from the council. Issuing tickets to correctly parked vehicles was
the main bone of contention.

Also, uk.legal.moderated could be a help.

Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

SNIP
Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket.

They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a certain
time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you don't pay up
quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the EU Human Rights Act.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

SNIP
Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket.

They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a certain
time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you don't pay up
quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the EU Human Rights Act.



Blimey. Is that so?

Stuart Noble wrote:
No doubt the council can provide a copy of the ticket, but the
question is whether it was ever attached to the vehicle.

I'm not sure they even have to do that. Their website proudly refers to
"CCTV enforcement", so presumably these shysters can simply capture the
image on CCTV and issue you a ticket, all from the comfort of their office.
I wonder how long you have to be stationary before you are deemed to have
parked?

"TheScullster" wrote in message
. uk...

"Stuart Noble" wrote

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
snip...

Not a response, but another moan.
SWMBO got a fine for not displaying valid ticket (it had dropped off).
Sent the correctly purchased ticket off and was told this is not
sufficient to avoid fine as the ticket had not been displayed!!!!



I think if it snowed and your windows are obscured then they could get you
on the same thing :-(

H

Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

SNIP
Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket.

They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a
certain time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you
don't pay up quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the
EU Human Rights Act.

Article 7 only applies to criminal offences. Most parking tickets these day
are civil penalties.

Peter Crosland

"Pyriform" wrote in message
...
Stuart Noble wrote:
No doubt the council can provide a copy of the ticket, but the
question is whether it was ever attached to the vehicle.

I'm not sure they even have to do that. Their website proudly refers to
"CCTV enforcement", so presumably these shysters can simply capture the
image on CCTV and issue you a ticket, all from the comfort of their
office. I wonder how long you have to be stationary before you are deemed
to have parked?



I think stopping to drop someone off is enough.

H

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

SNIP
Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket.

They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a certain
time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you don't pay up
quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the EU Human Rights
Act.



Blimey. Is that so?


Have a look at the parking ticket forum at

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

Lots of info and advice

Alec

In message , Stuart Noble
writes
Robbo wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was
issued at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the
Notice to Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received.
Net result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in
a plain envelope, size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?
Ask for photographic evidence of the "alleged" offence.
Request a copy of the original ticket.
Suggest most strongly that they have the wrong vehicle and until such
evidence is produced you will ignore their requests to assist in their
enquiries
Or
Chuck it in the bin


Thanks for the advice
No doubt the council can provide a copy of the ticket, but the question
is whether it was ever attached to the vehicle. Similarly, a copy of
the notice to owner is easy to provide, but who's to say it was
actually sent? I can't help thinking a threat to take you to court in
14 days might have been sent recorded delivery.
Not sure if they are able, or obliged, to provide photographic
evidence, but I'll certainly give that a go.

Round here they now photograph the car with the ticket on it

and yes - Vinci

--
geoff

Alho wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here
think about this parking ticket issue.

SNIP
Net
result as things stand is I lose the right to pay the original
amount, or to challenge the ticket.
They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a certain
time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you don't pay up
quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the EU Human Rights
Act.


Blimey. Is that so?


Have a look at the parking ticket forum at

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

Lots of info and advice

Alec



Thanks Alec. I knew there had to be a site like this somewhere

Stuart Noble wrote:

TheScullster wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote
Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
snip...

Not a response, but another moan.
SWMBO got a fine for not displaying valid ticket (it had dropped off).
Sent the correctly purchased ticket off and was told this is not sufficient
to avoid fine as the ticket had not been displayed!!!!

Phil

That's wicked, and not in any way "reasonable" (which I believe councils
are required to be). I'd certainly appeal. Possibly the adhesive was faulty?

Is it not the same as 'failing to display a tax disc' (or whatever)?
That is, it doesn't matter if you're taxed or not - it's the failing to
display bit that's the offence.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, otherwise what's stopping you
putting an old ticket face-down on the floor/seat/dash of your car...
if the warden comes up and books you... you wait around for someone to
return to their car... get/buy their ticket off them... and send it off
claiming you had a valid ticket but it had just dropped off. Sure,
wouldn't work for reg-encoded tickets but many aren't like that.

Mathew

Peter Crosland wrote:

They always refer to this as a 'reduced' amount if you pay in a
certain time. In fact what they are say is it will increase if you
don't pay up quick - which I believe to contravene Article 7 of the
EU Human Rights Act.

Article 7 only applies to criminal offences. Most parking tickets
these day are civil penalties.

Good job my local parking department isn't as bright as you are Peter :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:28:04 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:


No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

If it was for parking on the public highway then you can appeal to an
independent adjudicator. They must inform you of this at some point in the
procedings: this is not the same as appealing to them (Vinci/council who
enforce parking restrictions) so hold out and do the independent appeal.
You can do so in writing or represent yourself in person. The adjudicator
will be something like a low-ranking solicitor and the hearing fairly
informal. If you lose you'll have to pay the penalty: you'll miss the
early-payment discount (which you say you have already) but won't have to
pay any more than that.

If it was parking on private land then AIUI if the owners of the land have
made it clear (e.g. by prominently-displayed signs) that if you park there
you're liable to be charged for it or even clamped, then a contract exists
between them and people parking there which allows them to sue
you for the agreed amount (as indicated on the signs). The signs have to
be obvious: it's no good to you if you choose not to read them. Look up
Wade v. some London Borough (Shoreditch? Hackney?) in BAILII.

There may be other situations where it's not public highway but there are
bye-laws which apply. Dunno about those.

IANAL, but FWIW I went through the public highway appeal course with
ourlocal council (and lost) and the private land business with Observances
Parking Services and won (basically ignored them and they went away :-)

John Stumbles wrote:
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:28:04 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

No joy so far with this on uk.legal so I wonder what folks on here think
about this parking ticket issue.

Just got a charge certificate out of the blue from Vinci
Park Services on behalf of my local council demanding £120 for a parking
offence committed 4 months ago (I assume £80 plus non-payment
surcharge), and this is the first I've heard of it. No ticket was issued
at the time (but could have been a camera I suppose), and the Notice to
Owner allegedly sent on 5th October was never received. Net result as
things stand is I lose the right to pay the original amount, or to
challenge the ticket. Strangely, this thing arrived in a plain envelope,
size 8 font, cunningly disguised as junk mail.
Anyone know any legal stuff about all this?

If it was for parking on the public highway then you can appeal to an
independent adjudicator. They must inform you of this at some point in the
procedings: this is not the same as appealing to them (Vinci/council who
enforce parking restrictions) so hold out and do the independent appeal.
You can do so in writing or represent yourself in person. The adjudicator
will be something like a low-ranking solicitor and the hearing fairly
informal. If you lose you'll have to pay the penalty: you'll miss the
early-payment discount (which you say you have already) but won't have to
pay any more than that.

Because the notice to owner has allegedly been sent and ignored for a
certain period, it appears you lose the right to appeal. By the time the
charge certificate arrives, it's pay within 14 days or it goes to court.
However, even at this stage, you can apparently complete a statutory
declaration form where you swear to the court under oath that the NTO
was not received. The original ticket may then be re-issued by the
council, and the normal appeal process can begin.
If I get back to that point, I shall be happy because the Vinci scam
only works by leap-frogging the appeal process, and they don't have to
do anything other than forget to send the NTO. This means all those
tickets that are issued and can't be stuck on the windscreen and
photographed may still be a source of revenue for them.

If it was parking on private land then AIUI if the owners of the land have
made it clear (e.g. by prominently-displayed signs) that if you park there
you're liable to be charged for it or even clamped, then a contract exists
between them and people parking there which allows them to sue
you for the agreed amount (as indicated on the signs). The signs have to
be obvious: it's no good to you if you choose not to read them. Look up
Wade v. some London Borough (Shoreditch? Hackney?) in BAILII.

There may be other situations where it's not public highway but there are
bye-laws which apply. Dunno about those.

IANAL, but FWIW I went through the public highway appeal course with
ourlocal council (and lost) and the private land business with Observances
Parking Services and won (basically ignored them and they went away :-)

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:42:56 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

Because the notice to owner has allegedly been sent and ignored for a
certain period, it appears you lose the right to appeal. By the time the
charge certificate arrives, it's pay within 14 days or it goes to court.

Sorry, I didn't understand ithad got that far.

However, even at this stage, you can apparently complete a statutory
declaration form where you swear to the court under oath that the NTO
was not received. The original ticket may then be re-issued by the
council, and the normal appeal process can begin.

I didn't know that - useful & worth remembering

If I get back to that point, I shall be happy because the Vinci scam
only works by leap-frogging the appeal process, and they don't have to
do anything other than forget to send the NTO.

Good luck

John Stumbles wrote:
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:42:56 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

Because the notice to owner has allegedly been sent and ignored for a
certain period, it appears you lose the right to appeal. By the time the
charge certificate arrives, it's pay within 14 days or it goes to court.

Sorry, I didn't understand ithad got that far.

However, even at this stage, you can apparently complete a statutory
declaration form where you swear to the court under oath that the NTO
was not received. The original ticket may then be re-issued by the
council, and the normal appeal process can begin.

I didn't know that - useful & worth remembering

And the oath can be done for free without appointment at your local
court apparently

http://forums.pepipoo.com/
is the place if you ever need advice about motoring offences.. Thanks
again to Alec for that.



If I get back to that point, I shall be happy because the Vinci scam
only works by leap-frogging the appeal process, and they don't have to
do anything other than forget to send the NTO.

Good luck


Thanks. I hope I won't need it.