I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

Just to be clear, we never hooked up his hardinge to any VFDs, I
told him not to do it due to a jumble of relays in the control box.

Is there anyone here who knows how these HCs work?

Why would it click and not restart?

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

This is not for me, it is for him. He is a NRA member and an all
around great guy. If he could spend a few minutes on the phone with
someone he would be delighted. He can make gun parts for you.

--
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"Ignoramus8671" wrote in message
...

Iggy, give me some more information about your VFD drives, please.
I already have 3 phase in my shop, however, I am considering a VFD simply
for speed control.
Questions:
Can a 3hp drive run a 2 hp motor, or do they have to be matched?
Does your 3hp VFD work with 3phase input, or do I need to run on single
phase?
How do I buy from you?

Ivan Vegvary

On 2008-05-17, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

"Ignoramus8671" wrote in message
...

Iggy, give me some more information about your VFD drives, please.
I already have 3 phase in my shop, however, I am considering a VFD simply
for speed control.
Questions:
Can a 3hp drive run a 2 hp motor, or do they have to be matched?

The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP
below that is OK.


Does your 3hp VFD work with 3phase input, or do I need to run on
single phase? How do I buy from you?

Works with single phase, only up to 2 HP motors.

The person I visited today, used it on a Bridgeport and Index mills.

i

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Ignoramus8671 wrote:
The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP
below that is OK.
....

When I was looking for a VFD and researching the ones that came up on
eBay, there was one that said it shouldn't be used on motors of less
than a certain hp. It didn't say why and I'm not saying that it's
always true, just a heads-up that it can be the case that a VFD is too
large for a motor.

Bob

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

What's the specs and controls on the drives, and will they fit in a
Priority Mail box? It might be time for me to replace the rotary phase
converter I use on my Bridgeport (1HP).

Pete C.

Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?


I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .

Martin Sheldon owner/user


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

Just to be clear, we never hooked up his hardinge to any VFDs, I
told him not to do it due to a jumble of relays in the control box.

Is there anyone here who knows how these HCs work?

Why would it click and not restart?

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

This is not for me, it is for him. He is a NRA member and an all
around great guy. If he could spend a few minutes on the phone with
someone he would be delighted. He can make gun parts for you.



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On 2008-05-18, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

What's the specs and controls on the drives, and will they fit in a
Priority Mail box? It might be time for me to replace the rotary phase
converter I use on my Bridgeport (1HP).

Definitely the time. Rotary phase converters are so 1970s.

They are rated 2.2 kW (3 HP). They run bridgeports just fine.

http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Toshi...ive-Manual.pdf

They have electric brakes too.

Will not fit into flat rate boxes.

I also have 3.7 kW drives. Those are for bigger machines.

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On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.


I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .

--
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On 2008-05-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Ignoramus8671 wrote:
The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP
below that is OK.
...

When I was looking for a VFD and researching the ones that came up on
eBay, there was one that said it shouldn't be used on motors of less
than a certain hp. It didn't say why and I'm not saying that it's
always true, just a heads-up that it can be the case that a VFD is too
large for a motor.

Are you sure that wasn't a "Static converter" instead of a VFDj?
Those use a capacitor to produce enough phase shift to start the motor
and then switch it out when the motor is spinning. And if the motor
horsepower is too small, the phase shift won't be right and the motor
will not start. (But you can change the capacitance value to a lower
one to start a smaller motor with it.)

The only way that I could see a true VFD having problems with
too small a motor is if it is monitoring the current in each leg and if
any leg is below a certain limit it might sound an alarm indicating that
it thought that one motor winding had become disconnected.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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DoN. Nichols wrote:
Are you sure that wasn't a "Static converter" instead of a VFDj?
....

Absolutely & positively sure - it was a VFD

Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.

I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .



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Just thinking.

Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or
tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?

Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?

e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.

The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding
or the like.

Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.

More input is needed.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a
re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .



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News==----
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Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


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Martin, do you know these Hardinges, as it seems? Can that guy talk to
you perhaps? He is a super guy, NRA and whatever.

i

On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Just thinking.

Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or
tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?

Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?

e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.

The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding
or the like.

Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.

More input is needed.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a
re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .



News==----
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Newsgroups


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Ignoramus8671 wrote:

On 2008-05-18, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

What's the specs and controls on the drives, and will they fit in a
Priority Mail box? It might be time for me to replace the rotary phase
converter I use on my Bridgeport (1HP).

Definitely the time. Rotary phase converters are so 1970s.

Yea, but it works and it cost me abour $10 to build.


They are rated 2.2 kW (3 HP). They run bridgeports just fine.

http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Toshi...ive-Manual.pdf

They have electric brakes too.

Will not fit into flat rate boxes.

I also have 3.7 kW drives. Those are for bigger machines.

Ok, how do I order two? Remove the .DOH. to email me.

Pete C.

mailed

On 2008-05-18, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

On 2008-05-18, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

I visited an interesting guy today, to whom I sold some VFD drives, to
set up one for him. Which was easy. (I am selling 3 HP drives for $100
a pop)

What's the specs and controls on the drives, and will they fit in a
Priority Mail box? It might be time for me to replace the rotary phase
converter I use on my Bridgeport (1HP).

Definitely the time. Rotary phase converters are so 1970s.

Yea, but it works and it cost me abour $10 to build.


They are rated 2.2 kW (3 HP). They run bridgeports just fine.

http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Toshi...ive-Manual.pdf

They have electric brakes too.

Will not fit into flat rate boxes.

I also have 3.7 kW drives. Those are for bigger machines.

Ok, how do I order two? Remove the .DOH. to email me.

Pete C.

--
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"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
. ..
Ignoramus8671 wrote:
The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP
below that is OK.
...

When I was looking for a VFD and researching the ones that came up on
eBay, there was one that said it shouldn't be used on motors of less than
a certain hp. It didn't say why and I'm not saying that it's always true,
just a heads-up that it can be the case that a VFD is too large for a
motor.

Bob

I am running a 1 HP motor off a 10 HP VFD. It works fine, but the motor
protection does not go down far enough. The lowest I can set max amps is 7
IIRC, that 1 hp motor runs 2-3 amps. I don't have any issue with it as the
motor runs only when I am standing there watching it, but if it were for
some application that ran when no one was a round there could be problems is
something failed.
Greg

Iggy, I know someone that may be interested in a VFD also,drop me a line
please.
goo1959 AT hotmail.com

For what it's worth, I have two extra 1 HP VFDs - in my pile of "probably
useful stuff" - both tested and working - go to my web page, wbnoble.com and
find my email address if you are interested - and I have a couple of 440V
ones as well (but I couldn't test them)


"Greg O" wrote in message
...
"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
. ..
Ignoramus8671 wrote:
The motor has to have a horsepower that the VFD can handle, but any HP
below that is OK.
...

When I was looking for a VFD and researching the ones that came up on
eBay, there was one that said it shouldn't be used on motors of less than
a certain hp. It didn't say why and I'm not saying that it's always
true, just a heads-up that it can be the case that a VFD is too large for
a motor.

Bob

I am running a 1 HP motor off a 10 HP VFD. It works fine, but the motor
protection does not go down far enough. The lowest I can set max amps is 7
IIRC, that 1 hp motor runs 2-3 amps. I don't have any issue with it as the
motor runs only when I am standing there watching it, but if it were for
some application that ran when no one was a round there could be problems
is something failed.
Greg


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Ignoramus8671 wrote:
Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.
Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

Again, could be a voltage conversion problem, there ought to be
taps on the control transformer. After checking that, there is
most likely a phase shift cap and some relays to run the motor.
Check that the relays are working, could be dirty contacts after
long disuse, or a bad capacitor.

Jon

On 2008-05-18, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus8671 wrote:
Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.

Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said
that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".

In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the
lathe ran OK.

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

Again, could be a voltage conversion problem, there ought to be
taps on the control transformer. After checking that, there is
most likely a phase shift cap and some relays to run the motor.
Check that the relays are working, could be dirty contacts after
long disuse, or a bad capacitor.

Could be. I was reluctant to work on it that much due to the lathe not
being mine. I would not hesitate to buy it for very little and
fix. But as it was not mine, I decided not to mess with it too much
beyond just looking.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
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On 2008-05-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
Are you sure that wasn't a "Static converter" instead of a VFDj?
...

Absolutely & positively sure - it was a VFD

You said that it was an eBay auction -- so I can imagine the
*vendor* calling a static converter a VFD -- or not knowing enough about
the difference to think that the limitation which applies to a static
converter also applies to a VFD.

Without being able to look at the photos on the auction
(probably long since removed), I can't tell visually, and I have found
that it pays to be skeptical of what a vendor on eBay calls an item,
having sometimes discovered to my benefit that I knew more about the
item illustrated than the vendor did, and his poor description reduced
the number of others who would be bidding against me.

If you knew the device from the photos, that is a different
matter, but in that case I would not expect you to be asking the
question.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I know lathes in general - not the Hardinges. I have a nice Sheldon
that Dad and I bought together as a young boy.

When little we had three boarders renting rooms (very large house) and using
one side of our 100'x100' shop. They made steam engines that took heavy duty
four wheel trailers and a commercial truck to pull (early 50's).
I had the pleasure of meeting one of them four years ago! Still a machinist,
he was top notch - working for special defense projects. Now retired.

If I knew 1/10 of their knowledge I could write books.

If we get more inputs and insights - we might be able to sort things out.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus24782 wrote:
Martin, do you know these Hardinges, as it seems? Can that guy talk to
you perhaps? He is a super guy, NRA and whatever.

i

On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Just thinking.

Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or
tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?

Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?

e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.

The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding
or the like.

Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.

More input is needed.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a
re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.
We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?
No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .

News==----
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"Ignoramus24782" wrote in message
...
On 2008-05-18, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus8671 wrote:

snip -

Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said
that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".

In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the
lathe ran OK.



this sounds suspiciously like a Y versus Delta problem - that might be worth
checking out


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sun, 18 May 2008 20:10:13 -0500, Ignoramus24782 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus8671 wrote:

Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.

And you have to re-jumper the control transformer, main contactor
coils and any other line-powered gear inside from 480V to 208/240V.

And if that power is coming from a phase converter (either kind) all
the control power has to be coming from the two "real" phases - the
'manufactured leg' can only be used for the motor load(s).

Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said
that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".

In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the
lathe ran OK.

They'll sit there and hum, and if you spin them up with a pull-rope
they'll try turning for a few seconds and stop. DAMHIKT, of course -
it even had me going "???" for about thirty seconds...

"But it ran just fine at the used machinery brokers..." snapped me
out of it.

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 18 May 2008 08:03:12 -0500, Ignoramus24782
wrote:

Martin, do you know these Hardinges, as it seems? Can that guy talk to
you perhaps? He is a super guy, NRA and whatever.

i
I do indeed work on Hardinge lathes

Iggy, have him call me. If he can use a VOM, Ill walk him through some
stuff.

Btw..the thermal breakers are located on the big black relay across
the bottom of the control box. Pull them out, then push them in.

The vari-drive motor may not run for a number of reasons, from the
limit switches in the acme rod motor housing being out of place, (turn
off power and hand turn to a mid rod position and pull the limit rod
up and down a couple times)

Any thermal breaker popping will kill the main contactor with the
possible exception of the coolant thermal (depending on age) That was
probably the CLICK you heard.

Frankly..given the complexity of some of the electrical stuff in the
control..not electronic..but electrical...I recommend ripping out all
the Stuff except the drum swiitches (2 or one in some), setting the
vari drive rod to mid range, and using the drum switches to control a
VFD, running a 3hp motor..the old one being a double wound 2 speed,
with a max of 1.5 hp on most. Often a Doer motor (save it..they are
worth a fair amount to those too stupid to install a VFD)
Keep the coolant switch and wire the VFDs aux output to the
hand/off/auto coolant switch for the coolant pump via a suitable low
voltage relay if the machine is equipped with coolant pump (or add
one)

What torque you lose on the low rpms, you make up for it with the 3hp
motor. Program max RPMs to give you no more than 3000 rpm at the
spindle. Bearings are only good for about 3500 rpm for long runs and
over 3000 ...the life goes down quickly. Id be happy to do a spindle
bearing change for him...and Im one of the cheapest in the business.
It will only cost travel, mileage and $500 PLUS the cost of the
bearings......but..shrug..run em as fast as you can afford.....G

Hardinge parts are available..usually..from Hardinge or scrap
machines, but if buying from Hardinge, be prepared to offer up your
first born in trade . They make Clausing look like a discount house.



Ill be doing this conversion shortly on my English made Hardinge TFB.
The one once rewired by a deslyxic, color blind Italian short order
cook.

Doing a conversion is easy, takes about half a day total if you plan
ahead and stick all the fcontrol stuff in the existing control head
shell with a new cover. There is room enough even for a tach if you
plan right. A Hall effect switch can be easily put on the ass end of
the spindle between the collet closer and the headstock.if you want a
true RPM gauge.. The VFD may..may fit inside the old control cabinet.
Some are too tall, in which case I suggest pulling off the old control
cabinet, putting on a "shelf" to shield the VFD, and bolting it
directly to the side of the machine, or in a can if you choose, but
you will lose the handle controls that run the drum switch ..but
switches will fit nicely in the existing control head, and a thin
multi cable run down the pipe holding the control head.



Gunner,
Coyote Engineering
OmniTurn and NC/manual Hardinge repair
Plant maint and industrial electrical

805-732-5308

On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Just thinking.

Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or
tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?

Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?

e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.

The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding
or the like.

Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.

More input is needed.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a
re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .



News==----
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Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

On Sun, 18 May 2008 17:30:03 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:
Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.

True enough. Big problem though..those motors are single voltage.
My TFB is 440..requires a transformer. I do have a number of surplus
220 motors out of Hardinge lathes . Ive planned on doing the
conversion for a while, so havent bothered to change out the motor.

OH!..the feed motor MAY be single voltage as well. In which case..you
are well and truely screwed...they are HARD to find except off of a
carcass.

If the feed motor is 440...install a 3hp 440 motor and VFD, power from
a transformer. Btw..that is most often a DC motor that runs the
feed...but at line value. Some were 220, even on the 440 but a small
transformer took care of the power.

I used to get $500 for a used motor for HCs/DV-59s, etc etc. Now you
can buy the whole lathe for that price.

Gunner

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

Again, could be a voltage conversion problem, there ought to be
taps on the control transformer. After checking that, there is
most likely a phase shift cap and some relays to run the motor.
Check that the relays are working, could be dirty contacts after
long disuse, or a bad capacitor.

Jon

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Thanks Gunner. I sent an email to you and Cc-ed to Tom. This will get
him started.

i

On 2008-05-19, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 18 May 2008 08:03:12 -0500, Ignoramus24782
wrote:

Martin, do you know these Hardinges, as it seems? Can that guy talk to
you perhaps? He is a super guy, NRA and whatever.

i
I do indeed work on Hardinge lathes

Iggy, have him call me. If he can use a VOM, Ill walk him through some
stuff.

Btw..the thermal breakers are located on the big black relay across
the bottom of the control box. Pull them out, then push them in.

The vari-drive motor may not run for a number of reasons, from the
limit switches in the acme rod motor housing being out of place, (turn
off power and hand turn to a mid rod position and pull the limit rod
up and down a couple times)

Any thermal breaker popping will kill the main contactor with the
possible exception of the coolant thermal (depending on age) That was
probably the CLICK you heard.

Frankly..given the complexity of some of the electrical stuff in the
control..not electronic..but electrical...I recommend ripping out all
the Stuff except the drum swiitches (2 or one in some), setting the
vari drive rod to mid range, and using the drum switches to control a
VFD, running a 3hp motor..the old one being a double wound 2 speed,
with a max of 1.5 hp on most. Often a Doer motor (save it..they are
worth a fair amount to those too stupid to install a VFD)
Keep the coolant switch and wire the VFDs aux output to the
hand/off/auto coolant switch for the coolant pump via a suitable low
voltage relay if the machine is equipped with coolant pump (or add
one)

What torque you lose on the low rpms, you make up for it with the 3hp
motor. Program max RPMs to give you no more than 3000 rpm at the
spindle. Bearings are only good for about 3500 rpm for long runs and
over 3000 ...the life goes down quickly. Id be happy to do a spindle
bearing change for him...and Im one of the cheapest in the business.
It will only cost travel, mileage and $500 PLUS the cost of the
bearings......but..shrug..run em as fast as you can afford.....G

Hardinge parts are available..usually..from Hardinge or scrap
machines, but if buying from Hardinge, be prepared to offer up your
first born in trade . They make Clausing look like a discount house.



Ill be doing this conversion shortly on my English made Hardinge TFB.
The one once rewired by a deslyxic, color blind Italian short order
cook.

Doing a conversion is easy, takes about half a day total if you plan
ahead and stick all the fcontrol stuff in the existing control head
shell with a new cover. There is room enough even for a tach if you
plan right. A Hall effect switch can be easily put on the ass end of
the spindle between the collet closer and the headstock.if you want a
true RPM gauge.. The VFD may..may fit inside the old control cabinet.
Some are too tall, in which case I suggest pulling off the old control
cabinet, putting on a "shelf" to shield the VFD, and bolting it
directly to the side of the machine, or in a can if you choose, but
you will lose the handle controls that run the drum switch ..but
switches will fit nicely in the existing control head, and a thin
multi cable run down the pipe holding the control head.



Gunner,
Coyote Engineering
OmniTurn and NC/manual Hardinge repair
Plant maint and industrial electrical

805-732-5308

On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Just thinking.

Was it shipped in with the "Half nut lever" engaged ? And the end stop or
tail stock was run up against it ? or it on the Headstock?

Is the Feed clutch in drive in/out and the cross slide is at and end ?

e.g. is the front lead screw turning for some reason ? Not a basic function.

The spindle might be dry and heats up. The pop might be a bushing expanding
or the like.

Didn't say that the machine stopped when it popped.

More input is needed.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Motors have end bell red buttons.
Some might be just internal. I had some that way.

Might be a current sensing unit in a power I/O box.

I have no idea what the control looks like - mine is a barrel switch
and a motor with belts and gears.

Many are electronic speed control in a lathe foot or cabinet.

Thermal breaker has a push out button. It pops.

I wasn't there so I can't say if a Klixon clicked or that was the
back gear that was jammed and the friction drive was used with to much
back force. [ Klixon is or was a Texas Instrument temperature switch
of high quality - bi-metal plate that flexes and that might be the pop.]


Rather hard to diagnose since I have not seen one or touched it.

Can you say were the pop came from ?
Any more input ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ignoramus8671 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Sounds to me the Hardinge is running. The pop is likely a
re-settable temp
thermal breaker. An overload is present. I don't have one.

We couldnot find one, and also why would it pop???

Is there a back gear lock engaged ? spindle lock ? shipping that way ?

No. It spun just fine. And then, click -- and it stopped.
I would hope a Hardige owner / user would step in .



News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups


http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On 2008-05-19, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 18 May 2008 17:30:03 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:
Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.

True enough. Big problem though..those motors are single voltage.

being dual speed

My TFB is 440..requires a transformer. I do have a number of surplus
220 motors out of Hardinge lathes . Ive planned on doing the
conversion for a while, so havent bothered to change out the motor.

OH!..the feed motor MAY be single voltage as well. In which case..you
are well and truely screwed...they are HARD to find except off of a
carcass.

If the feed motor is 440...install a 3hp 440 motor and VFD, power from
a transformer. Btw..that is most often a DC motor that runs the
feed...but at line value. Some were 220, even on the 440 but a small
transformer took care of the power.

I used to get $500 for a used motor for HCs/DV-59s, etc etc. Now you
can buy the whole lathe for that price.

Any idea what a "threading attachment", with a bunch of threaded cams,
for that chucker, would be worth? Tom gave me that one in trade for
something.

i

Gunner

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

Again, could be a voltage conversion problem, there ought to be
taps on the control transformer. After checking that, there is
most likely a phase shift cap and some relays to run the motor.
Check that the relays are working, could be dirty contacts after
long disuse, or a bad capacitor.

Jon

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Mon, 19 May 2008 01:15:41 -0500, Ignoramus24782
wrote:


I used to get $500 for a used motor for HCs/DV-59s, etc etc. Now you
can buy the whole lathe for that price.

Any idea what a "threading attachment", with a bunch of threaded cams,
for that chucker, would be worth? Tom gave me that one in trade for
something.

i
Joe Gwinn IIRC is looking for one for his new HC.

The threading attachment (and the back mounting plate) is worth about
$300, the threading masters are worth about $35 each, depending on how
many are on Ebay at the moment. Sometimes less, other times more.


At the moment..about $300 for attachment and masters are about right.
Next month...shrug


They are gettting more and more common as companies are
dumping/scrapping their HCs so the value is going down.

I gave away a threading attachment about a year ago, and traded a
couple dozen thread masters for an ancient Hobart gas powered welder
off a Liberty ship, that Ive not brought home yet, but it was between
friends

Gunner


Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

On Sat, 17 May 2008 12:52:52 -0500, Ignoramus8671
wrote:

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

I have an older HC, mid 50's era. Something inside mine will pop now
and again, and it won't run for a while. I don't have any schematics
for it and don't know enough about electrical to try and track it
down. I'm considering switching to a VFD soon as I figure out how to
interlock switching from low to high speed windings so that I don't
make this switch under power while running the VFD.

Why is the motor that actuates the threaded rod that drives the speed
adjustment hinge, never runs?

Have found this a problem too. I think a limit switch is being overun
now and then. I use a pair of pliers to back the screw off a bit. If
it's not at the end of travel and won't work, it's something else.
Again, a VFD will solve this problem....

Jon

Ignoramus24782 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.


Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said
that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".

In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the
lathe ran OK.

Yes, but the MOTOR may have been rewired for 220 without changing the
heaters in the starter.

Otherwise, it could be a problem with his phase converter. If it is far
out of balance, it may be good enough to start the motor, but then there
is a big circulating current between the converter and the lathe.

Jon

On 2008-05-19, Jon Elson wrote:


Ignoramus24782 wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus8671 wrote:

Then he showed me his Hardinge HC chucker. It did not work right. He
never ran it because of it. He hooked it up to his phase converter and
it ran, however the speed adjustment knobs never worked.

After a few minutes of running some "click" was heard and it stopped
and would not restart.

There is probably a motor starter with a thermal overload. Most
of those have to be manually reset. Usually there is a reset
button on them. But, there must be a problem causing excessive
motor current to cause that to trip. My first guess is to check
that the motor is not wired for 440 V. If it was originally,
then the thermal heaters in the motor control have to be changed
for 240 V, as the current will double.


Yep. That was my suspicion too. I asked this question. The guy said
that according to the seller, "the lathe was wired for 208v".

In my experience, 440v motors just flat out do not run on 220, but the
lathe ran OK.

Yes, but the MOTOR may have been rewired for 220 without changing the
heaters in the starter.

This is a single voltage motor. 208

Otherwise, it could be a problem with his phase converter. If it is far
out of balance, it may be good enough to start the motor, but then there
is a big circulating current between the converter and the lathe.

That could be. He had a lousy multimeter, I forgot to take mine, so it
was hard to ascertain.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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posting on Usenet.
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DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
Are you sure that wasn't a "Static converter" instead of a VFDj?
...

Absolutely & positively sure - it was a VFD

You said that it was an eBay auction -- so I can imagine the
*vendor* calling a static converter a VFD -- ...

It was like this: an eBay auction for some VFD, say it was an "Acme
2000". The auction doesn't give many specifics so I Google "Acme 2000"
& find an Owners Manual. The manual says the VFD should not be used for
motors less than a certain hp.

Bob

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 19 May 2008 01:15:41 -0500, Ignoramus24782
wrote:


I used to get $500 for a used motor for HCs/DV-59s, etc etc. Now you
can buy the whole lathe for that price.

Any idea what a "threading attachment", with a bunch of threaded cams,
for that chucker, would be worth? Tom gave me that one in trade for
something.

i
Joe Gwinn IIRC is looking for one for his new HC.

I wish it were true. But all I have is an old Clausing 5914. Someday
I'll move up to a Hardinge, but I plan to get some experience on the
Clausing first. So far, I have no managed to break anything.

Joe Gwinn

On 2008-05-20, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-05-18, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
Are you sure that wasn't a "Static converter" instead of a VFDj?
...

Absolutely & positively sure - it was a VFD

You said that it was an eBay auction -- so I can imagine the
*vendor* calling a static converter a VFD -- ...

It was like this: an eBay auction for some VFD, say it was an "Acme
2000". The auction doesn't give many specifics so I Google "Acme 2000"
& find an Owners Manual. The manual says the VFD should not be used for
motors less than a certain hp.

O.K. I would love a poitner to that web site for the manual so
I could see *why* they are saying that. It is a strange spec.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

The VFDs arrived a few minutes ago. I expect I'll have one hooked up
within the hour

Thanks,

Pete C.

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

The VFDs arrived a few minutes ago. I expect I'll have one hooked up
within the hour


make sure to follow instructions. There is a one page there "getting
started" that tells you how to get your motor running, maybe not in
the most convenient way but you would see that the drive works.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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Ignoramus12247 wrote:

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

The VFDs arrived a few minutes ago. I expect I'll have one hooked up
within the hour


make sure to follow instructions. There is a one page there "getting
started" that tells you how to get your motor running, maybe not in
the most convenient way but you would see that the drive works.

Up and running. Now I need to build a mount for it.

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus12247 wrote:

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

The VFDs arrived a few minutes ago. I expect I'll have one hooked up
within the hour


make sure to follow instructions. There is a one page there "getting
started" that tells you how to get your motor running, maybe not in
the most convenient way but you would see that the drive works.

Up and running. Now I need to build a mount for it.

Cool!

Will you make a little housing for a pot and a FWD-OFF-REV switch?

Post some pix...

Also keep in mind, these drives that I sold to you, have dynamic
braking, this is nice for machines like lathes and mills. Highly
recommended to take advantage. Like a stop programmed in 1 second.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
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Ignoramus12247 wrote:

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus12247 wrote:

On 2008-05-21, Pete C. wrote:

The VFDs arrived a few minutes ago. I expect I'll have one hooked up
within the hour


make sure to follow instructions. There is a one page there "getting
started" that tells you how to get your motor running, maybe not in
the most convenient way but you would see that the drive works.

Up and running. Now I need to build a mount for it.

Cool!

Yep, and quieter than the rotary phase converter.


Will you make a little housing for a pot and a FWD-OFF-REV switch?

I doubt it, the front panel controls seem fine. Easy to enter the
frequency you want or use the up/down arrows to adjust it.


Post some pix...

Eventually. I'm off Fri-Mon diving in Cozumel, so I won't get to it
until next week.


Also keep in mind, these drives that I sold to you, have dynamic
braking, this is nice for machines like lathes and mills. Highly
recommended to take advantage. Like a stop programmed in 1 second.

Yep, I noticed it seems to be set about there now. No more using the
spindle brake to stop it for a cutter change.

The wonders of technology...