"Garlicdude" wrote in message
...

Aw, quit your whining! In NJ we just spent $1.2 Billion to build a
light
rail system between Trenton and Camden. Two cities that NO ONE wants to
go
to, and neither of which have any jobs! When it comes to wasting money
you
guys are going to have to get up really early to beat us!

Take a look at who owns the developable property along the route. That
happens to be a relatively low-value area. If you can tie into major-city
mass transit with a local route, you can really boost real estate values.
Expect a flurry of condos, apartment complexes, and high-density, oversized
houses to crop up there.

Here in Metuchen, at least 1/4 of our home values are based on the fact that
we live on a quick, efficient rail route to Manhatten. And that's a low
estimate, in my view.

As the man said, follow the money.

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:48:19 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:01:08 GMT, Alan Moore
wrote:

On 14 Feb 2004 22:08:33 GMT, (Bray Haven) wrote:

based on a few statistical samples of things I have checked, is to assume
that every quote of yours is complete bull**** and proceed accordingly.

Then why bother to read them... and why bother to respond to them...?
Greg sefton

Because you never know who else is reading, and may be taken in by
them.

Al Moore

That's probably true of at least one person on Usenet. (Although
somebody is bound to disagree, citing the lack of cites.) But the
rest of us just like to argue. :-)

Oh yeah. I was just providing a justification for my participation in
all this nonsense.

Al Moore

"Pierre Bongo" wrote in message
news:qsLXb.39590$jk2.87333@attbi_s53...
The purpose of the original post was not to argue over WHY home-schooled
kids do markedly better on standardized academic tests, but rather to
refute
with this statistical fact the ignorant attempt at slandering
home-schooling
as some sort of fringe cult whose students are profoundly inferior
performers. The statistics DO clearly show - for whatever reason - that
this
ignorant prejudice is clearly false.

Well, answering false information with more false (or selectively cooked)
information is not my idea of a successful argument, Pierre. Anyone trained
in stats and research methodology can see it, and it paints an ugly picture.

As any of the legitimate studies point out (including the one I pointed to),
the studies are weighted down with sampling bias from the very beginning.
There is no way to compare the performance of homeschooled kids versus
non-homeschooled.

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 05:43:06 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 14 Feb 2004 15:36:44 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress says...

But they aren't the ones arguing the case, Gunner. Read your blogs. They're
full of bitter, resentful malcontents who hate public schooling

They don't hate public schooling.

They just hate paying for it.

Jim

They just hate paying for shoddy and worthless goods. Most of those
good folks have complained and bitched for years about the declining
quality of education coupled to rising costs. This is the reason the
voucher systems came into play along with home schooling. The folks
got tired of fighting the various NEA clones and entrenched school
adminisitrations who believe tenure and Taj Mahal edifices are more
important than a quality education.

Can you honestly say schools today are better than those you went to?

Well, I can certainly say that the public high school from which I
graduated is no worse today than it was when I graduated. And people
were talking about how miserable it was back then, too, because we
were only somewhere in the top twenty nationally for having the
graduates also graduate from college, and go on to higher degrees.

They were talking about how the high school district in which I now
live was completely inadequate back when Steve Jobs and "the Woz"
graduated from it. You can call it failure if you wish, but I think we
need more of it.

Al Moore

"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...
And a lot of home-schooling advocates aren't above using the
statistics to draw a conclusion that's opposite of the truth. It's hard
to
believe that all of the people who quote these stats are so cavalier
about
them, or so ignorant of statistical methods that *all* of them fail to
see
the errors.

Ed Huntress
Once again, I find my personal experince to conflict with your
statistics. Not
that they are wrong ). Where I live, most home schoolers do so because
of a
totally ineffective local public school system which graduates high
numbers of
funtional illiterates.

Well, individual experiences *will* conflict with statistics, Greg.
Individual experiences are anecdotal. The range of possibilities is broad.
So anecdotes disagree with statistics more often than not.

But everyone has anecdotes. Good statistics are harder to come by. So I try
to look at both, because the statistics don't tell us about situations like
the one you're describing, and I'm sure there are plenty of positive
anecdotes about homeschooling.

I would never suggest that we make judgments based solely on statistics. But
making them solely on anecdotes is even worse.

Again, I'm not opposed to homeschooling. What I'm opposed to is glorifying
it with selective statistics, or relying solely on individual anecdotes. I
prefer to get a broad picture, one as accurate as I can find, and to combine
it with individual experiences. I don't see how you can understand big
social issues like this without both.

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:22:47 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Robert Sturgeon" wrote in message
.. .

The evidence is, it wasn't happening until we set up public education.

The numbers I've seen (and no, I'm not going to look them
up) indicate that the literacy rate among whites was over
90% prior to the civil war. That can't be compared to
today's literacy rate due the changing population covered,
but even among the whites the figure isn't better after over
100 years of public education.

Well, I did look it up, and here are the figures for whites over 14 years of
age. Based on the same way of measuring illiteracy, with a toughening
standard over time, it was 11.5% in 1870 and 0.4% in 1979, when the Census
Bureau stopped using the old method of self-reporting. And "literacy" in
1870 meant being able to read and write a simple sentence. ("120 Years of
American Education: A Statistical Portrait", Edited by Tom Snyder, National
Center for Education Statistics, 1993).

The standards used today are based on what is called "functional literacy,"
and it's a much tougher test, which gets tougher as the society becomes more
complex and the definition of "functional" becomes correspondingly tougher.

Public education didn't
work.

It worked like a charm. Nothing in history ever elevated literacy and
numeracy rates faster or better among a general population. Ever.

Well, it worked, after a fashion, until about
1965-70. Then the teachers' unions gained power and public
education went into the crapper.

Have you bothered to check out the comparative knowledge levels of children
in 1965 versus today, Robert? If not, you're in for a surprise.

snipped...

He Kids today know a lot more then when I was a teenager in
1965!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

"Santa Cruz Mike" wrote in message
news
Well, it worked, after a fashion, until about
1965-70. Then the teachers' unions gained power and public
education went into the crapper.

Have you bothered to check out the comparative knowledge levels of
children
in 1965 versus today, Robert? If not, you're in for a surprise.

snipped...

He Kids today know a lot more then when I was a teenager in
1965!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike


Amen. In '65, I was 17. My son is now 16. I would NOT want to have to
compete with this kid in math, in writing, in history...and most especially,
in chemistry. g

And I graduated from a public high school that was purported to be one of
the best in the country.

Ed Huntress

On 15 Feb 2004 08:53:56 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Jim...those who home school or use vouchers pay the same amount of
taxes nonetheless.

Right - but they get that tax money right back, as a voucher.
This is basically a tax rebate for them. I would say sure,
let them have vouchers. They pay a thousand dollars in
school tax right now, they can have a five hundred dollar
voucher if they pay fifteen hundred! If they were serious
about improving education then would agree to that. The
more vouchers, the fewer kids in public schools with the
same number of teachers.

Those that send their kids to public school get their money back in
the form of (inferior) public school education.

The fewer kids in public school the better.

Same with those who sent their kids to private
schools. Home schoolers and voucher proponents have not asked that the
tax burden be lessened , though most would like that. Why should they
pay taxes utilized for substandard inferior public education and still
have to shell out additional moneys for home schooling or private
school?

Vouchers are simply the first step in eliminating public education.
It won't get better when they're installed - only worse. The
analogy might be to car insurance: sure I'd like to be able to
take the money I spend on that and keep it myself. But if
everyone were allowed to opt out of the system - and that is
*exactly* what vouchers are, an 'opt out' clause - then it would
stop working in short order.


Jim..the money ALL goes to education. Its not rebated and spendable on
TV sets and boats. Vouchers simply allow you to decide which education
vendor gets your money.

Just out of curiosity, how do folks with *no* children make
out in a proposed voucher system? Do they get a voucher good
for some portion of a brand new car or something? g

Jim

Ah no...they still have to pay the taxes like everyone else does, and
has done so for many years.

Like I have to do, even though I have no kids in school.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:28:20 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:01:25 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:35:11 GMT, wrote:

Exactly. I live in the boonies, and there are quite a few
home-schooled kids in the area. Any talk of them doing better as a
group than public-school kids is just nuts. And it's easy to see why
if you look at the reasons many of the boonie parents don't send their
youngns' to school - 1. won't, or can't afford to drive them 15 miles
one-way twice a day to meet the bus. 2. don't want them to associate
with non-fundies....ever. 3. didn't go to school themselves, so don't
see the need. sigh Given the circumstances and attitudes, overall
success rates are bound to be pitiful.

When generalizing about groups, I don't see how statistics can be
meaningful considering how many home-schooled kids live below the
radar. In our county there probably isn't a practical way for
officials to know that the kids *exist*, must less how well they're
schooled.

Wayne

I see a post full of assumptions. Where are the test scores of those
children?


I don't know.... same place as the soap and water? If they aren't
bathed, then it isn't likely that they're getting much of an
education. If the parents aren't too bright, it's not likely that
they're going to be teaching much. If kids aren't socialized, it's
unlikely that they're well adjusted. If officials don't have a way to
know that home-schooled kids live in their district, it's unlikely
that the kids have been tested. If the parents meet visitors at the
gate with a rifle, it's unlikely they'd agree to have their kids
tested. But hey, those are all just assumptions, and I'm sure that
you're about to tell me that a guy with a two dozen beer a day habit
*could* be giving math lessons in his shack, and his kids are
*probably* better off than if they'd gone to gasp public school.

\
Once again all I see are assumptions and some generic claims.
When you can provide some data, Id be happy to look it over, but until
then, its noted as your opinion.

My posts included anecdotes based on personal observations and
discussion with local home-schoolers. I note that you're quite happy
to use anecdotes elsewhere in the discussion to support your own
position. Besides, where would you expect anyone to get statistics for
people who go out of their way to avoid being included in statistics?
Most of these people refused to participate in the census, much less
in education studies.

BTW, who are you and what did you do with that other gunner who's so
fond of the "walks like a duck...." homily?

Wayne

I only use it as needed. I dont use a hammer to cut grooves in
inconel.

Gunner

What you mean is, when you see something obvious and are questioned
about your observations, you're happy to fall back on a homily. But
when someone else comments on the obvious, you insist on "research",
which you seem to think is copying and pasting URLs no matter which
quack sites they link to.

Wayne

Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
Bummer

Gunner
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 14 Feb 2004 22:19:15 GMT, (Bray Haven) brought
forth from the murky depths:

Test score data from states requiring testing or from homeschooling
associations, while not totally representative, suggest that tested
homeschooled children are above average (Lines 2001). According to two
Time reporters (Cloud and Morse 2001), "the average SAT score for home
schoolers in 2000 was 1100, compared with 1019 for the general
population."

Well, I'm no teacher and have no children (to speak of) but I have observed

So, you're relegated to creating smart asses?
(sorry, couldn't resist)


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:46:29 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
Bummer

Yeah, like when I told you that the deer weren't hiding. snorf

Wayne

I have a first grade daughter who is attending public school. She is
doing well but is board out of her skull. The class is taught to the
lowest 1/3 of the students, who for the most part are at that level
because of the home environment. My wife volunteers two time a week,
working in the class, so she has first hand knowledge of what is going
on.

We are considering home school for shear efficiency. She can get a
focused education in three hours at home and have time for her other
activities. Now she comes home exhausted and really has to push to get
her sports, chores, home work and music lesson done; plus, a first
grader really needs time just to play. That extra four hours would be
gold as it is everything, but school, slips.

I don't think home school is for every family or child but until the
public school gets its act together it is a viable option to parent who
want the best for their kids.

My wife put her engineering career on hold to raise our kids. This cut
our monetary income in half but with the incrase in quality of life,
personal and family happiness we feel this is quit a bargain.

BTW my doughter played the piano at her school talent show on Thursday
and amazed the audience. I knew she was good but the people around me
were literally open mouthed. It was very hard not to elbow the people
beside me and say that my daughter.

One Proud Dad.

Dan C



Dan Caster wrote:

I don't know too much about home schooling, but my niece lives in
Alaska and is home schooling her daughter. My sister ( her mother )
told me that in Alaska home schooled children have to take tests and
pass to be home schooled.

Dan

wrote in message


When generalizing about groups, I don't see how statistics can be
meaningful considering how many home-schooled kids live below the
radar. In our county there probably isn't a practical way for
officials to know that the kids *exist*, must less how well they're
schooled.

Wayne

On 15 Feb 2004 08:24:59 -0800, (Dan Caster) wrote:

I don't know too much about home schooling, but my niece lives in
Alaska and is home schooling her daughter. My sister ( her mother )
told me that in Alaska home schooled children have to take tests and
pass to be home schooled.


That's probably true of most counties, perhaps even ours. But having
rules and enforcing them are two different things. Here's an example
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101277,00.html A 40lb 19 year-old,
church friends who claim the parents aren't responsible, and officials
powerless to prevent the problem even though they were under the
microscope owing to previous foul-ups. (remarkable improvements in
their conditions now that they're being fed properly) When stuff like
this can happen, you gotta' know that a lot of routine things are
being neglected.

In a perfect world, the words "home schooling" wouldn't become a
euphemism for "no schooling". Then again, in a perfect world you'd
have to demonstrate some proficiency in child rearing before...well,
you know what. I don't have cites to prove that the learn-as-you-go
method has problems. But there might be a parallel to society's
well-proven need to license fishermen. Hopefully Gunner will
"research" this for us. :-)

Wayne

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:45:35 GMT, Dan Clingman
wrote:

I have a first grade daughter who is attending public school. She is
doing well but is board out of her skull. The class is taught to the
lowest 1/3 of the students, who for the most part are at that level
because of the home environment. My wife volunteers two time a week,
working in the class, so she has first hand knowledge of what is going
on.

We are considering home school for shear efficiency. She can get a
focused education in three hours at home and have time for her other
activities. Now she comes home exhausted and really has to push to get
her sports, chores, home work and music lesson done; plus, a first
grader really needs time just to play. That extra four hours would be
gold as it is everything, but school, slips.

I don't think home school is for every family or child but until the
public school gets its act together it is a viable option to parent who
want the best for their kids.

My wife put her engineering career on hold to raise our kids. This cut
our monetary income in half but with the incrase in quality of life,
personal and family happiness we feel this is quit a bargain.

BTW my doughter played the piano at her school talent show on Thursday
and amazed the audience. I knew she was good but the people around me
were literally open mouthed. It was very hard not to elbow the people
beside me and say that my daughter.

One Proud Dad.

Dan C

Congratulations. My bet is that if you decide to do the home school
thing, it will be successful. Sounds like you have the resources,
which was the missing element in the local situations I mentioned.

Wayne

PS Don't forget to teach her not to trust spell-checking software.
;-)

"Richard Johnson" wrote in message ...

By the way, I am a Credentialed Teacher in Industrial and Machine related
Arts for grades 19 and 20 now and was a Certified IA back then working with
the Teachers to develop and record the core course material.

I think your points may be sound, as you teach those grades. I
assume you have applied for a pay cut.

Your students would be far better off at home.

"Arts" is that darn spit "liberal" stuff anyway and all the kids
really need is guns and bible study (so they know who to shoot)
anyway.
--
Cliff

Everyone pays taxes that go to schools whether they have children or
not.

My thoughts are that you should get a vocher if you have children and
do not send them to public school. I don't care if you home school
them or send them to private school. If you have kids and are not
tsending them to the public schools, you are saving the government
money. Now I don't advocate having the vochers for as much as it
costs to have a kid in school. Some MBA could figure out the optimum
amount so that the public schools save the most money. So it might be
40% of the cost of having a kid go to public school.

Or another approach would be the one Alaska takes. They have a home
school education department. They help with things as books, and also
arrange for extra things as organizing home school plays and music
groups. So the kids develop social skills too. Of course that is
only for home schools, not private schools.

I like to think my plan would be a win for almost everyone. The
public schools would end up with more money per child, the parents
with more choice and more money if they were going to home school or
send their kid to private school.
The losers are the teachers union, and the school administrators.


Dan


jim rozen wrote in message

Seems like the folks who push home schooling also invariably
push vouchers. I would take the homeschool types a great
deal more seriously if they said, 'look, we're more than
happy to contribute to the public education, but we feel
like we want to do better for our kids ourselves.'

But when homeschoolers immediately jump on the voucher
bandwagon then it spoils the effect - basically it seems
like all they want to do is shirk paying taxes. And
if everyone is allowed to opt-out of school taxes, then
we get back to your original comment: in that case,
everyone *will* be required to home-school.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

How likely are they to be Asian? They are the higher performing kids.

Dan


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message news:GHGXb.9516

and that they were 15% more likely to be white than
black or hispanic. Those are all factors that correlate with higher
performance for non-homeschooled kids, too.


Aren't you surprised? g?

Ed Huntress

In article , Gunner says...

Jim..the money ALL goes to education. Its not rebated and spendable on
TV sets and boats. Vouchers simply allow you to decide which education
vendor gets your money.

Right, but all the problem kids, the expensive ones, will still
stay in public school - because no private school can afford to
educate them.

But there won't *be* any public schools after vouchers are
installed, right - because they're so bad nobody will send
their kids there. So where do the trouble kids go? The
ones that are developmentally disabled or otherwise more
expensive to educate?

Are you in favor of making entrance into the private schools
guaranteed, so that any kid can go wherever they want? Sounds
to me like that's a prescription for disaster - you've just
dragged the private schools down to public school level.
Also, you've just entangled the government into the affairs
of the private (in some cases religious) schools.

Example: the school my daughter was attending was private,
and had no facilities that were ADA compliant. They didn't
have to. But in the new voucher scheme, there *is* no
public school, because it's been run out of town on a rail
for being so terrible. So now kids are going to be knocking
on the door of private schools, demanding to be let in.
But some of them are in wheelchairs, etc. "Hey, this voucher
says I can come here. You better make the classrooms ADA
compliant." What do they say, 'nope' - the voucher is no good
here?

What makes you think that the new breed of schools are going
to be any different (better) than the ones we have now? Sounds
to me like the same problems are going to keep on cropping up.
Why not fix the problem where it is now, rather than making
new ones?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Take a look at who owns the developable property along the route. That
happens to be a relatively low-value area. If you can tie into major-city
mass transit with a local route, you can really boost real estate values.
Expect a flurry of condos, apartment complexes, and high-density, oversized
houses to crop up there.

Yep. Look what happened to Hoboken.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Bray Haven wrote:

And a lot of home-schooling advocates aren't above using the
statistics to draw a conclusion that's opposite of the truth. It's hard to believe that all of the people who quote these stats are so cavalier
about them, or so ignorant of statistical methods that *all* of them
fail to see the errors.

Once again, I find my personal experince to conflict with your statistics. Not that they are wrong ). Where I live, most home
schoolers do so because of a totally ineffective local public school
system which graduates high numbers of funtional illiterates. They also
use many teaching aids available to them on the net & mail, so they
don't neccesarily have to be a math whiz to supervize their kids in an
algebra course. They also organize group classes and field trips to
draw on the abilities of others and integrate social interaction into
the education process.

According to the Houston Chronicle, the Houston Independent School
District has 2.7 administrators for every teacher. Teachers no longer
teach, they jump through administrative hoops held by folks whose main
function appears to be justifying their existence in the educational
system by determining whether or not a syllabus is politically correct
and places enough emphasis on the TASP tests.

It's almost as bad in the lily white, affluent, suburbs - where being
politically correct more important than being correct, teachers still
can't teach unless their syllabus is approved by lebenty-leben
administrators who couldn't teach a dog to eat meat on their best day,
and skyrocketing taxes are used to build state-of-the-art
athletic facilities instead of educating kids.

My kids are grown. Homeschooling is not an option for any of my
grandkids, all are in private schools and I'd cheerfully sell my saddle
to keep them there.
--
Tom Stovall, CJF
Farrier & Blacksmith

http://www.katyforge.com

"That government governs best that governs least."
-Thomas Jefferson

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:02:46 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

,;"Santa Cruz Mike" wrote in message
,;news ,;
,; Well, it worked, after a fashion, until about
,; 1965-70. Then the teachers' unions gained power and public
,; education went into the crapper.
,;
,; Have you bothered to check out the comparative knowledge levels of
,;children
,; in 1965 versus today, Robert? If not, you're in for a surprise.
,;
,; snipped...
,;
,; He Kids today know a lot more then when I was a teenager in
,; 1965!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
,;
,; Mike
,;
,;
,;Amen. In '65, I was 17. My son is now 16. I would NOT want to have to
,;compete with this kid in math, in writing, in history...and most especially,
,;in chemistry. g

Well today I got a phone call for some help with a chemistry problem
from a son who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and works for a blue chip
organization. This is not the first call and hopefully will not be the
last but I still know chemistry that he has not learned yet.

It reminds me of my research director's comment. "You are very good
but you will never catch up with me because I am still learning." He
was still learning but he was in his late 70s at the time. He was very
good but he died in 1981 and I am still learning. Some day my son will
still be learning and I will not be.

I would like to see how your son would do on some of the geography
exams I took back in the 30s.


,;
,;And I graduated from a public high school that was purported to be one of
,;the best in the country.
,;
,;Ed Huntress
,;

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 05:35:38 -0800, "Richard Johnson"
wrote:

Damn, got to pay attention to what I type. The credential covers grades 13
and 14, (Jr College). 19 and 20, where did I come up with that?? Sorry.
(At least I am self correcting!)

Rich

Perhaps because most are 19 and 20 year olds?

I presumed that was your intention when I read the original post.

It jumped into mind as I teach at a tech college part time. Got
hoodwinked into it. Kinda just happened. Comes from knowing the
wrong people. First a friend convinced me to give a couple
specialized classes on PID control theory. I wasn't interested in
more work, nor teaching. But decided a one time, short course would
be okay.

Sigh Then he and some other staff asked me to write a curriculum for
modern DDC as used in building automation and energy management. Just
do the curriculum, and spend some time bringing one of their
instructors up to speed on what's actually being done and used
currently. That's it. They'd not ask more.

Yeah sure, now I'm teaching one day per week, 6 hours straight, on top
of my regular job and don't even ask me how I got talked into that.
I'm still trying to figure out just when I said "Yes", ... and why.

Anyway, the largest age group in the class is 19-20 yr olds. Working
on 2 yr tech degrees (AS). Tho there are a pretty fair number of
older guys, and 2 gals. Who used to be in other jobs but are
switching fields.

Bob

"Garlicdude" wrote in message
...

And then there's the VTA here in Silly Cone Valley. Forgot
the actual figures, but it is something like $1.50 per rider
paid in fairs, and costs $5.00 and change for the ride.
Some folks voted to extend BART to San Jose with bond
money. Now the rat ******* politicans want to use the bond
money for operating expenses.

I've consistantly voted no on any transportation money since
they tricked me on raising the sales tax to widen the roads,
but failed to mention that they would be car pool lanes.
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
aka The Garlic Dude
Gilroy, CA
The Garlic Capital of The World
http://www.pulsareng.com/

I've ridden the VTA in San Hose. Beautiful system, but the bus that ran
virtually along side actually drops you off in front of the office
buildings! The buses were running nearly full every time I got on. A few
times on the light rail I was almost the only passenger.

Our system charges $1.10 for the ride, but sucks $75 million a year in tax
subsidies to cover the ACTUAL cost of operation! I'll bet that is a lot
more than $5 a ride in real cost.

Gary H. Lucas

,;
,;What you mean is, when you see something obvious and are questioned
,;about your observations, you're happy to fall back on a homily. But
,;when someone else comments on the obvious, you insist on "research",
,;which you seem to think is copying and pasting URLs no matter which
,;quack sites they link to.
,;
,;Wayne
,;
,;Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
,;Bummer

Couldn't you have snipped something so as to avoid repeating 81 lines
of un-needed material?

,;
,;Gunner
,;"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
,; To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
,; merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et...
"Garlicdude" wrote in message
...

Aw, quit your whining! In NJ we just spent $1.2 Billion to build a
light
rail system between Trenton and Camden. Two cities that NO ONE wants
to
go
to, and neither of which have any jobs! When it comes to wasting
money
you
guys are going to have to get up really early to beat us!

Take a look at who owns the developable property along the route. That
happens to be a relatively low-value area. If you can tie into major-city
mass transit with a local route, you can really boost real estate values.
Expect a flurry of condos, apartment complexes, and high-density,
oversized
houses to crop up there.

Here in Metuchen, at least 1/4 of our home values are based on the fact
that
we live on a quick, efficient rail route to Manhatten. And that's a low
estimate, in my view.

As the man said, follow the money.

Ed Huntress

Yeah, but at least Manhattan has high paying jobs! So you buy a Condo near
the light rail station, where are you going to work to pay for it?

Gary H. Lucas

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:42 GMT, wrote:

,;On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:46:29 GMT, Gunner
,;wrote:
,;
,;
,;
,;Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
,;Bummer
,;
,;Yeah, like when I told you that the deer weren't hiding. snorf

I appreciate the snipping but couldn't you have left enough to reveal
the topic?
,;
,;Wayne

"Bob G" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 05:35:38 -0800, "Richard Johnson"
wrote:

Damn, got to pay attention to what I type. The credential covers grades
13
and 14, (Jr College). 19 and 20, where did I come up with that?? Sorry.
(At least I am self correcting!)

Rich

Perhaps because most are 19 and 20 year olds?

I presumed that was your intention when I read the original post.

It jumped into mind as I teach at a tech college part time. Got
hoodwinked into it. Kinda just happened. Comes from knowing the
wrong people. First a friend convinced me to give a couple
specialized classes on PID control theory. I wasn't interested in
more work, nor teaching. But decided a one time, short course would
be okay.

Sigh Then he and some other staff asked me to write a curriculum for
modern DDC as used in building automation and energy management. Just
do the curriculum, and spend some time bringing one of their
instructors up to speed on what's actually being done and used
currently. That's it. They'd not ask more.

Yeah sure, now I'm teaching one day per week, 6 hours straight, on top
of my regular job and don't even ask me how I got talked into that.
I'm still trying to figure out just when I said "Yes", ... and why.

Anyway, the largest age group in the class is 19-20 yr olds. Working
on 2 yr tech degrees (AS). Tho there are a pretty fair number of
older guys, and 2 gals. Who used to be in other jobs but are
switching fields.

Bob



Teaching has been in my job since before I graduated High School
(Instructional Aide). When I went into the Naval Reserve my Rate was that
of Tradevman. That job maintained and operated simulators (Link Trainers
through ASW jez and mad simulators.) Being an Instructor was part of that
job. Later in CATV I became the back up Instructor for the Technical
Classes, and that is where I got my Credential (Lifetime, Limited Service).
SD City College approached my Employer to set up an AS degree program in
CATV Technology. So I did that with the Regional Trainer. Even now in
management, I do a lot of teaching. I enjoy the training of adults. They
want to be there, and want to get the knowledge and skills. The ones that
are difficult are the Jr. High/Middle School and High School students. It
is rare to find one that wants to be there, or has the desire to learn what
you are teaching.

Rich

"Cliff Huprich" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Johnson" wrote in message
...

By the way, I am a Credentialed Teacher in Industrial and Machine
related
Arts for grades 19 and 20 now and was a Certified IA back then working
with
the Teachers to develop and record the core course material.

I think your points may be sound, as you teach those grades. I
assume you have applied for a pay cut.

Your students would be far better off at home.

"Arts" is that darn spit "liberal" stuff anyway and all the kids
really need is guns and bible study (so they know who to shoot)
anyway.
--
Cliff

No Cliff, I do not presently teach in any school now. I am an Engineer and
am doing Management duties. As those that can, do. And those the can't do,
teach. I fall into a third catagory, those that can't teach, manage. (And
we NEVER cut our salaries.)

Rich

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:43:59 GMT, Lewis Hartswick
brought forth from the murky depths:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Public school teachers really aren't required to know actual subjects.
They concentrate in "education" theory and union dues. That might
explain a lot.

They do too teach. They teach diversity, self-esteem,
political correctness, and a whole lot of other very
necessary things to thekids who can't find the USA on
a map by the 8th grade...

http://diversify.com

My wife substitutes all over the city and I have been volunteering
at a high school for several years, eating lunch with a group of
teachers and I tell you it's AMAZING how little the teachers seem
to know of so many subjects. No wonder the kids can't find the USA on
a map or do the simplest arithmetic. :-(
...lew...

When I was being retrained at Coleman College in '87, I
watched a newly certificated teacher come into the computer
electronics technology courses without even knowing what a
resistor was. In 6 months, he wasn't bad, but surely couldn't
teach anything to me from experience. I was astonished at how
teachers are thrown into precarious positions and expected to
teach something they themselves do not know.

I queried the teacher about it and he said that every long-term
teacher he'd talked to (pre-tenure, so under 10 years, I guess)
had been through the same thing. Perhaps that's a newish trend
in the U.S. I sure don't like it. I'm glad I had old-school
teachers for the most part.

And I'm glad for my 2nd grade teacher, Ms. Hankins, at Trinity
Cathedral School in Little Rock. She wasn't a Sister and didn't
cram religion down our throats. Her compassion took away my fears
of school and made me like it again. That feeling hung on even
through some real jerks of teachers, but I had a different attitude
after Ms. Hankins. I didn't let the jerks get me down.

Mr. Workman, the wood & metal shop teacher in 9th grade (and my
Basic Aviation teacher in High School) was a crazy old coot who
enjoyed the hell out of life, and learning, and teaching. That
kind of enthusiasm is truly infectious and I had lots of fun in
his classes.

After high school (and immediately into auto tech school), I
didn't appreciate the fun of learning again until I was forced to
go back to school after an accident. Coleman opened it up for me
and I haven't stopped avidly reading and learning since then.

Praise (the powers that be) for good teachers and BOOKS!


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:43:59 GMT, Lewis Hartswick
brought forth from the murky depths:

My wife substitutes all over the city and I have been volunteering
at a high school for several years, eating lunch with a group of
teachers and I tell you it's AMAZING how little the teachers seem
to know of so many subjects. No wonder the kids can't find the USA on
a map or do the simplest arithmetic. :-(
...lew...

I forgot one thing, Lew. A friend of mine in D.C. just got
his Masters and his wife is going for her PHD. He's amazed
at how little common sense people have even though they have
tons of degrees and decades in higher education.

I wish we could somehow make the boards of ed aware of that
fact and have them allow EXPERIENCE in lieu of a second
or third doctorate, etc. so the teachers in schools actually
-knew- something of what they were teaching to these poor kids.



So, are we all agreed that the acronym "PHD" actually stands
for "Piled Higher and Deeper" and that the old trucking firm
held more common sense in a single cab than a roomful of Drs.
did?


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:09:55 -0800, "Richard Johnson"
wrote:


"Cliff Huprich" wrote in message
. com...
"Richard Johnson" wrote in message
...

By the way, I am a Credentialed Teacher in Industrial and Machine
related
Arts for grades 19 and 20 now and was a Certified IA back then working
with
the Teachers to develop and record the core course material.

I think your points may be sound, as you teach those grades. I
assume you have applied for a pay cut.

Your students would be far better off at home.

"Arts" is that darn spit "liberal" stuff anyway and all the kids
really need is guns and bible study (so they know who to shoot)
anyway.
--
Cliff

No Cliff, I do not presently teach in any school now. I am an Engineer and
am doing Management duties. As those that can, do. And those the can't do,
teach. I fall into a third catagory, those that can't teach, manage. (And
we NEVER cut our salaries.)

Rich

Well... I guess Rich took the wind out of Cliff's little smart ass.
sarcastic comments!!!

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?

Later,
MIke

jim rozen wrote:


Right, but all the problem kids, the expensive ones, will still
stay in public school - because no private school can afford to
educate them.



But some of them are in wheelchairs, etc. "Hey, this voucher
says I can come here. You better make the classrooms ADA
compliant." What do they say, 'nope' - the voucher is no good
here?


It looks like I am the only one in the group who can settle this. I am
impartial; my wife tells me I have a pathological hatred of school.

First to Jim:

The state already has kids with "special needs" sent to private school.
One the big items in my town's school budget is the cost of sending a
few kids to very expensive private schools that hopefully meet their needs.

To Ed and Gunner and the rest:

You can't really argue. It's similar to STD statistics. The national
statistics are interesting, but what really affects you is the condition
of the person in bed next to you. In education you can prove anything
you want because kids are different and respond to different methods of
teaching. I am in favor of vouchers, because it would give easier access
to the different methods of teaching. I am puzzled because the people
that tell me how wonderful the public school system is are the the first
to say no one will go there if given a choice. In my case (and Ed's)
there are a limited number of school choices built into the public
system. My son went to a "magnet" high school. He did very well there.
He is that kind of kid. _But_ one size does not fit all. There should be
(accessable) "magnet" schools for the other kinds of kids.

Want apocryphal stories?

My son went to a lot of science fairs, physics competitions and the
like. He tells me the first to be eliminated in any meet were the home
schooled kids. They weren't considered competition.
This shows that home schooling doesn't work.

He is now a FIRST robotics team advisor for an inner city public school
in Boston. He tells me the kids there have never been exposed to
anything like engineering before. Some kids pick it right up. Some kids
didn't know what an "angle" was. My son was amazed that anyone could get
to high school without knowing what an angle was.
This shows that public schooling doesn't work.

I'd give some examples of how private schooling doesn't work but we are
all getting tired.

Since the posts in this thread require a URL I'll give one.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393310728/002-2589149-2570406?v=glance

Kevin Gallimore




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

what happens
to the kids if the voucher money runs out in mid-year in the
private school? Are they allowed to show up on the public
school's doorstep, and demand to be educated?

Why not? They are still payig for public educations over & above any of the
proposed voucher amounts I've seen. The amounts are also much less than it
costs the local school system to "educate" that student. I have a friend who
home schools every other year to give his kids social skills. They are usually
half a year ahead when they go in to the publc shools. The family lives on @
12K a year.
Greg Sefton

So, you're relegated to creating smart asses?
(sorry, couldn't resist)

Contrary to popular belief, almost all asses are smart. ). Everybody likes a
little ass...

Greg Sefton

"Concerning the difference between man and the Jackass, some hold there isn't
any.... But this wrongs the Jackass.."
Mark Twain

My thoughts are that you should get a vocher if you have children and
do not send them to public school. I don't care if you home school
them or send them to private school. If you have kids and are not
tsending them to the public schools, you are saving the government
money.

How about if I don't have kids & don't send them to school. Look at all the $
I'm saving the govt. )
Greg Sefton

How likely are they to be Asian? They are the higher performing kids.

Dan

Yep, awhile after I got back from VN, I helped with the boat people coming in
to Eglin AFB as an interpreter. These folks were as foreign to this country as
anyone could imagine. In a few years, the kids were winning spelling bees.
Talk about (overcoming) "cultural bias" ).
Greg Sefton

In article , axolotl says...

It looks like I am the only one in the group who can settle this. I am
impartial; my wife tells me I have a pathological hatred of school.

:^) You're in good company!

The state already has kids with "special needs" sent to private school.
One the big items in my town's school budget is the cost of sending a
few kids to very expensive private schools that hopefully meet their needs.

Right, but those few kids take up more than their percentage of
funding that flows in to the public system through taxes. If you
go and say 'now everyone gets an equal slice of the pie, here's
your check for such-and-such dollars' that will be calculated on
the equal slice theory.

The special needs kids are now left with, say, 30% of what's
required to school them. The real problem here is that public
schools really smack of socialism - income redistribution and all.
This sticks in the craw of the voucher folks. They want to get
*their* hands on every nickel that's 'due' them, screw the
disabled kids. They can have their welfare mom stay home and
school them there.

And we're not going to start discussing what happens when public tax
money starts getting funnelled into parochial schools. What a
mess. Now we're going to have the state (who *is* vouchering this
stuff, right?) calling the shots in religious schools.

Image that: "OK, your curriculum has to include this and this
and this, because we're paying the bills." Catholic schools have
to observe Jewish holidays, etc.

There's a huge first amendment problem right there.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Gary H. Lucas" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et...

Here in Metuchen, at least 1/4 of our home values are based on the fact
that
we live on a quick, efficient rail route to Manhatten. And that's a low
estimate, in my view.

As the man said, follow the money.

Ed Huntress

Yeah, but at least Manhattan has high paying jobs! So you buy a Condo
near
the light rail station, where are you going to work to pay for it?

Well, that's a good question, but the state definitely has succumbed to
property interests in pushing the project. The official word dresses up the
reality a bit but here's what the head of NJ Transit said: "Light Rail has
proven to be the impetus for explosive economic development along the
waterfront in Hudson County. We expect similar results for this system. The
E-Center, the State Aquarium, a new baseball stadium, and of course, the
Battleship New Jersey, are the types of destinations that underscore the
role light-rail will play in the region's redevelopment."

It's the money. It may not pay off in general, but somebody with property
interest in the area is going to make some money.

Ed Huntress

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:45:35 GMT, Dan Clingman wrote:
We are considering home school for shear efficiency. She can get a
focused education in three hours at home and have time for her other
activities. Now she comes home exhausted and really has to push to get
her sports, chores, home work and music lesson done; plus, a first
grader really needs time just to play. That extra four hours would be
gold as it is everything, but school, slips.

Welcome to real life. I could do my job in 3 hours of focused time
a day, IF EVERYONE WOULD LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE.
But the real world doesn't work that way. Kids need to learn that
too.

Gary

"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m...
How likely are they to be Asian? They are the higher performing kids.

Dan

'Don't know. You may find it in that report to which I posted a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/HomeSchool/

Ed Huntress