In article , strabo
writes:

You're supposed to know considerably more.

Like how to properly quote, snip & trim so as to produce an
intelligible Usenet post? (No actual guns or kibble are needed
nor were any used in this post.)
--
Cliff

Santa Cruz Mike wrote in message . ..

Ok.. nice try.. but irrelevant.. the dimensions are the same as I
have posted in the past.. the History of the Jews doesn't matter
except for Cliffy's little swipes at the Jews and the claims Cliffy
makes that the Jews taught that PI = 3.000... which of course they did
not.. hmm..

Is Mike getting dumber? Got foorp?
I've made no "swipes at the Jews" ... just at endless violence
and idiot fundies and their claims.

BTW, Seems John Ings is saying that that old collections
of tales is just that. No "divine word" involved, thus you
can excuse the many errors (and it explains why claimed dieties
never seem to know anything NEW or unknown by the general
population of the time ... unless it's totally untestable and
meanigless BSEG.)


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts

"The merest accident of microgeography meant that the first man to hear the
voice of (the God) Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd
and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world,
and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid
and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent and need to be led."
[Terry Pratchett, "Small Gods"]

"God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffeable game of his
own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the
other players [ie., everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex
version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes,
with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who _smiles all the time_."
[ Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman]

"'He says gods like to see an atheist around. Gives them something to aim
at.'" -- Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_

"'You can't trample infidels when you're a tortoise. I mean, all you could do
is give them a meaningful look.'" -- Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_

"Guilt was the grease in which the wheels of the authority turned." -- Terry
Pratchett, _Small Gods_

"In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded." -- Terry Pratchett,
_Lords and Ladies

"The trouble was that he was talking in philosophy, but they were listening
in gibberish." -- Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_

"The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to." -- Terry
Pratchett, _Small Gods_

"The trouble was that he was talking in philosophy, but they were listening
in gibberish." -- Terry Pratchett, _Small Gods_
--
Cliff

On 19 Feb 2004 02:28:53 -0800, (Cliff Huprich)
wrote:

Santa Cruz Mike wrote in message . ..

Ok.. nice try.. but irrelevant.. the dimensions are the same as I
have posted in the past.. the History of the Jews doesn't matter
except for Cliffy's little swipes at the Jews and the claims Cliffy
makes that the Jews taught that PI = 3.000... which of course they did
not.. hmm..

Is Mike getting dumber? Got foorp?


Cliff.. are you going to make the bowl are talk?

Mike

Cliff's Homework for this year: Cliff's bowl has a 10 unit/inch
outside diameter and a 30 unit/inch outer circumference and a 5
unit/inch depth. The diameters have a .005 inch tolerance. And no
Virginia PI does not equal 3.00000. So how does Cliff make this bowl?

I don't think folks are 100 % free to choose private schools. There
are private schools in and around DC, and most of the parents who are
in Congress avail themselves of this choice. However most of the
residents in DC are not able to pay much for private schools. So the
private schools don't provide much competion to the public schools.

On the other hand, how can you say that the limited competition has
not boosted public school porformance? I happen to live in an afluent
neighborhood where many of the parents can afford private schools.
And although the local schools get less money than many of the school
districts in the area, the local schools are better than those of most
of the school districts that receive more money.
Is it the competition? or is it something else? I expect it is a
combination.

Dan



jim rozen wrote in message


Gunner I can't figure out why this issue escapes you! Competition
*is* a good thing, you are 100% correct. Funny thing is, that
competition you are hungering for is *already* present! The
private sector does indeed draw kids away from public schools
right now, and folks are 100% free to avail themselves of this
choice.

Now if you could explain to me why this competition has not
already boosted public school performance, I would be interested
to hear about it. I thought the free market always finds its
own true level.

Jim

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==================================================

You may be right about a) b) and even c). But I do question whether
we need more teachers for a mix of public and private schools than we
do if there are only public schools. Vouchers may encourage people to
have more kids, but otherwise you still have the same number of kids.

And as a taxpayer, I don't care about c) as long as it doesn't cost me
more in taxes and the parents and kids believe that having a choice is
better than not having a choice.

If you are going to fix the problem where it is, what would you do?

Swing by the Field Library and look at the Arts and Leisure section of
the Wall Street Journal. There is a review of a book on waste and
fraud in public schools in three cities. One is New York. The review
did not have much in the way of facts and figures, but the book might.

Dan


jim rozen wrote in message

I sure agree that public schools can always be improved, but
my suspicion is that vouchers a)wil shift the same problems
over in to the private sector, b) not magically produce
more teachers to staff the influx into private schools, and
c) are probabaly a attempt to end-run the first amendment
issues so that parents can sent their kids to religious
schools on the taxpayer nickel.

I would advocate fixing the problem where it is, rather than
generating new ones.

Jim
Jim

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==================================================

I agree that they will pressure for more money, but they do that
anyway. But I disagree on administrative costs going up. Say now 98%
of all kids go to public school including all of the hard to teach
kids. With vouchers say the percentage drops to 88% including all the
hard to teach kids. Fewer kids in public schools would mean fewer on
the TO&E under the administators. Same number of unteachables so wear
and tear would be the same. Yes higher percentage, but same number
total.

Dan


Lewis Hartswick wrote in message

I only wish it were true. They will only pressure the legislature for
more and MORE money. Those that can't teach, most will have tenure or
some such so will be there for eternity. :-). Administration costs will
always continue to grow because an administrators sallary depends on
how many people are on the TO&E under him. With a higher percentage of
the "unteachables" in the schools the "wear and tear" will be worse.
Punishment, What is that? :-)
My wife substitutes and often in "special ed" classes. You may not
have ever come across the sorts of students in these classes. Kids in
public school that are almost "vegitables" for all the mental, physical,
and emotional ability they have. This is about half of the problem,
other half is, IMHO , the inability to dicipline the missbehavior kids.
...lew...

In article , Dan Caster says...

You may be right about a) b) and even c). But I do question whether
we need more teachers for a mix of public and private schools than we
do if there are only public schools. Vouchers may encourage people to
have more kids, but otherwise you still have the same number of kids.

But Dan, the one cornerstone of the voucher advocates is that
public school teachers are inept, inefficient, and overpaid.
They won't get hired by the private schools they're so bad.
So I re-iterate Fitch's question, where do the new, good,
cheap teachers come from?

Swing by the Field Library and look at the Arts and Leisure section of
the Wall Street Journal. There is a review of a book on waste and
fraud in public schools in three cities. One is New York. The review
did not have much in the way of facts and figures, but the book might.

Will do!

Jim

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==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Ah..no Supreme court of Mass.

No, I was getting at the fact that the prohibition
against giving tax money to religious schools flows
down from the USSC.

Not if the pinheads dont try to micromanage the private schools, and
the standard testing is kept high.

Let me get this straight: you think the state is going to
just *give* money to private schools, no strings attached,
and not apply some kind of (excessive) administrative
oversight to go along with the funds?

As long as they meet the national standards. Yep.

Nope, strong disagree on that. Never happen in
NY. But time will tell....

Are you still putting cookies out for santa every Xmas
Eve too? :^)

I usually leave a couple small bottles of JW and a good cigar.

I'll drink to that!

Jim

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==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Its evident that state and local agencies are unable or unwilling to
set reasonable standards.

Look, I like the idea - make the local schools accountable
on a federal level. It would solve a lot of problems but
honestly I think the idea will never ever ever ever come
to pass in your or my lifetime.

There's enough hollering about local schoolboards having
to submit to state mandates requirements and standards.
Having to do this on a federal level will rightly have
individual states screaming. There is *no* part of the
constitution that says, "the federal govenment is in
charge of setting education standards." Nope, none.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

See above. There is NO free market when ones educational dollars are
locked into payments to public schools.

Ever hear of the Company Store?

That's such crap. There is no reason that folks can't vote
with their money and they do so ever single day. Sure they
have to pay taxes for public schools. They can't get out
of that.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

jim rozen wrote:...
Malcolm Kirkpatrick wrote:...

MK. Topic: School vouchers and the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.

Discussion deleted (success with minimal school)...

Right, and Charles Lindbergh was tossed out of my
alma mater on his ear. Those are some great stories but
times have changed, and there was no public education
as we know it now, in any of those examples you mentioned.
Were Robert, Joseph, or Ben educated with public funds,
or did they pay their own way?

MK. a) Times have not changes that much. Most work people will do has
not changed so much as to make 12 years of school necessary. b) There
was "public" education (i.e., State operation of schools) in Henry's
time. Taxpayers obviously supported the Admiralty school which FitzRoy
attended.

MK. Discussion deleted (school vouchers, funding of)...

MK. Which school voucher plan are we discussing? My ideal? My ideal is
parent performance contracting, not a voucher. In a school voucher
system, yes, public schools would still have to accept students
according to their usual criteria. I'd suggest that they be budgeted
in the same way as independent, voucher-accepting schools, monthly,
based on enrollment. The only differences between the NEA/AFT/AFSCME
cartel's schools (the "public" schools") and voucher-accepting schools
would be 1) that the taxpayers' per-pupil support of the cartel's
schools would be 100%, while the school voucher would be 0 X%
100%.

Umm, hold it. 100% of *what*? For condition (1) above,
public taxes pay for all of of the kids who want to go
to public schools, just like now? And at the same time,
the public taxes pay some fixed percentage of vouchers for
kids who want to go to a private school, or home school?

Who decides what the total is? Do the taxpayers get to say
what the total budget of the public school should be, or do
they deduct some amount for the X that's going to the private
schools? Unless there is some means to strangle off the
public schools, they will demand the same level of support
as before, and the entire she-bang will wind up costing
*more*.

MK. Your legislature (or school board) determines the aggregate level
of tax support. This level allows a per pupil budget of "$c.xy".
School vochers are funded at a level (a/b)c, where 1/2 a/b 1.
Simple.

MK. The greatest barrier to school vouchers is determined lobbying by
the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.

I guess this discussion is finally coming together in my mind.
The voucher folks have a story to tell. That story, simply put,
is:

1) Public education in the US doesn't work well. It costs too
much and does a poor job of teaching skills.

2) We've found a proven way to solve these problems that exist
by giving state money to private schools.

My trouble here is that I really have not seen much evidence
that (1) above is true. And (2) seems to be quite a stretch.

In (1) one invariably sees teacher's unions, stupid teachers,
stupid school boards, stupid kids, stupid parents blamed.
And one *never* sees the voucher advocates admitting that
there really is competition to public schools out there,
right now - and it has not had the effect that they
desire. How can the be sure that more competition will
do it?

MK. Evidence of poor performance? The Singapore 5th (fifth) percentile
score (TIMSS 8th grade Math) is higher than the US 50th (fiftieth)
percentile score. The Hawaii juvenile arrest rate --falls-- in summer,
when school's not in session. Juvenile hospital admissions for
human-induced trauma --fall-- in summer.

MK. Evidence that competition between school districts improves
performance? Abundant. Compute the coefficient of correlation between
mean district size and
NAEP 8th grade Math score. States with numerous small districts
outperform States with a few large districts. See the studies of
Caroline Hoxby (Harvard Econ.)
Also...

MK. Gerard Lassibile and Lucia Navarro Gomez, ["Organization and
Efficiency of Educational Systems: some empirical findings", pg. 16,
"Comparative Education", Vol. 36 #1, Feb 2000]. "Furthermore, the
regression results indicate that countries where private education is
more widespread perform significantly better than countries where it
is more limited. The result showing the private sector to be more
efficient is similar to those found in other contexts with individual
data (see, for example, Psucharopoulos, 1987; Jiminez, et. al, 1991).
This finding should convince countries to reconsider policies that
reduce the role of the private sector in the field of education".

And I really am all ears to find cases of (2) where it's
been shown that kids do get a better education for less
money. That would be a great thing. In the meantime I'm
holding my breath.

MK. Breathe.

"If the government would make up its mind to require for every child a
good education, it might save itself the trouble of providing one. It
might leave to parents to obtain the education where and how they
pleased, and content itself with helping to pay the school fees of the
poorer classes of children, and defraying the entire school expense of
those who have no one else to pay for them." -- J.S. Mill, On Liberty

From: Hyman and Penroe, Journal of School Psychology.
"Several studies of maltreatment by teachers suggest that school
children report traumatic symptoms that are similar whether the
traumatic event was physical or verbal abuse (Hyman, et.al.,1988;
Krugman & Krugman, 1984; Lambert, 1990). Extrapolation from these
studies suggests that psychological maltreatment of school children,
especially those who are poor, is fairly widespread in the United
States...."
"As with corporal punishment, the frequency of emotional
maltreatment in schools is too often a function of the socioeconomic
status (SES) of the student population (Hyman, 1990)."

Take care. Homeschool if you can.

http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html (One page. Marvin Minsky
comment on school. Please read this.)
http://www.schoolchoices.org (Massive site. Useful links).
http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/index.html
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=pb&id=289
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11606 (School Reform News
on Sweden's school voucher policy)
http://www.nlpc.org

jim rozen wrote:...

Let me get this straight: you think the state is going to
just *give* money to private schools, no strings attached,
and not apply some kind of (excessive) administrative
oversight to go along with the funds?

MK. The State has several options: 1) regulate, 2) leave eligibility
criteria to accreditation agencies, 3) test students at the begining
and end of the school year, and pay for performance. Or 4) let parents
decide which institution shall receive the taxpayers' K-12 education
subsidy.

MK. The most effective accountability mechanism humans have yet
invented is the ability of unhappy customers to take their business
elsewhere.

"One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio,
State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth
is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom." --George
Orwell [Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell].

http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html (One page. Marvin Minsky
comment on school. Please read this.)
http://www.libertyindia.org/pdfs/tooley_education.pdf
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11606 (School Reform News
on Sweden's school voucher policy)
http://www.edreform.com/_upload/NineLies.pdf.
http://www.nlpc.org

On 19 Feb 2004 13:18:38 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Its evident that state and local agencies are unable or unwilling to
set reasonable standards.

Look, I like the idea - make the local schools accountable
on a federal level. It would solve a lot of problems but
honestly I think the idea will never ever ever ever come
to pass in your or my lifetime.

Not until we burn NEA headquarters and hang the *******s from lamp
posts.

There's enough hollering about local schoolboards having
to submit to state mandates requirements and standards.
Having to do this on a federal level will rightly have
individual states screaming. There is *no* part of the
constitution that says, "the federal govenment is in
charge of setting education standards." Nope, none.

Jim

The states bitch about Unfunded Mandates forced on them by the Feds.
And in many cases they are rightly ****ed.

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 19 Feb 2004 14:13:11 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

See above. There is NO free market when ones educational dollars are
locked into payments to public schools.

Ever hear of the Company Store?

That's such crap. There is no reason that folks can't vote
with their money and they do so ever single day. Sure they
have to pay taxes for public schools. They can't get out
of that.

Jim


Jim , when you are taxed to within an inch of your life or low income,
there is NO extra money for private school. You are locked into the
public school. No hope of getting a new and improved version. Same
with the Company Store. You either spend your money there, or starve.

Vouchers use that same money and allow you to spend it in a better
store, where you are not paying inflated prices for shoddy goods.

Period.

Gunner
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Damned right. Why, just look at the people here on this newsgroup: dumb as
fence posts, and probably 80% of them were educated in the public schools.

BTW, which private academy did you graduate from? G

Ed Huntress

In article , Gunner says...

The states bitch about Unfunded Mandates forced on them by the Feds.
And in many cases they are rightly ****ed.

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Yep it would be a mandate - but I noticed you dodged the
constitutional issue. If they oppose any kind of mandate,
they will oppose *this* one.

They will say that the federal govenment has no place in
setting educational standards. You of all people should
object to big govenment telling states what to do.

Gunner, admit it, you really do have a copy of "The
Progessive" under your mattress at home! :^)

Jim

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On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:25:52 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Damned right. Why, just look at the people here on this newsgroup: dumb as
fence posts, and probably 80% of them were educated in the public schools.

BTW, which private academy did you graduate from? G

Ed Huntress

Ed, Im as dumb as a bag of rocks, and I graduated from a public
school.

Point, set and match.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

In article , Malcolm
Kirkpatrick says...

MK. The State has several options: 1) regulate, 2) leave eligibility
criteria to accreditation agencies, 3) test students at the begining
and end of the school year, and pay for performance. Or 4) let parents
decide which institution shall receive the taxpayers' K-12 education
subsidy.

They will regulate no matter what. This is a given.

MK. The most effective accountability mechanism humans have yet
invented is the ability of unhappy customers to take their business
elsewhere.

And yet, this is exactly how the education business works
right *now*. Some folks do take their business elsewhere.
Vouchers won't change that.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

On 19 Feb 2004 17:48:39 -0800, (Malcolm
Kirkpatrick) wrote:

jim rozen wrote:...

Let me get this straight: you think the state is going to
just *give* money to private schools, no strings attached,
and not apply some kind of (excessive) administrative
oversight to go along with the funds?

MK. The State has several options: 1) regulate, 2) leave eligibility
criteria to accreditation agencies, 3) test students at the begining
and end of the school year, and pay for performance. Or 4) let parents
decide which institution shall receive the taxpayers' K-12 education
subsidy.

MK. The most effective accountability mechanism humans have yet
invented is the ability of unhappy customers to take their business
elsewhere.

"One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio,
State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth
is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom." --George
Orwell [Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell].

Education is a weapon, whose effects depend on who holds it in his
hand and at whom it is aimed." -- Joseph Stalin

"Intelligence appears to be the thing that enables a man to get along
without education. Education enables a man to get along without the
use of his intelligence." ~ Albert Edward Wiggam

"There are only two places in the world where time takes precedence
over the job to be done. School and prison." ~ William Glasser

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it
is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe
level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and
originality. ~ H.L. Mencken

School days, I believe, are the unhappiest in the whole span of human
existence. They are full of dull, unintelligible tasks, new and
unpleasant ordinances, and brutal violations of common sense and
common decency." ~ H.L. Mencken

"No teacher ever said: 'Don't value uncertainty and tentativeness,
don't question questions, above all don't think!' The message is
communicated quietly, insidiously, relentlessly and efficiently
through the structure of the classroom: through the role of the
teacher, the role of the student, ...the 'doings' that are praised or
censured." -- Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner

And there is this bit of scary data:

http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publi...4/edtech3.html

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

In article , Malcolm
Kirkpatrick says...

"If the government would make up its mind to require for every child a
good education, it might save itself the trouble of providing one. It
might leave to parents to obtain the education where and how they
pleased, and content itself with helping to pay the school fees of the
poorer classes of children, and defraying the entire school expense of
those who have no one else to pay for them." -- J.S. Mill, On Liberty

You're quoting "On Liberty" to *prove* that vouchers work,
right now?

Ha ha. No, I mean an actual US state that has installed
a voucher plan, and demonstrable evidence that education
is a) better and b) cheaper.

Jim

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==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

BTW, which private academy did you graduate from? G

Ed, Im as dumb as a bag of rocks, and I graduated from a public
school.

Point, set and match.

Yes, to *Ed*.

You can run gunner, but you can't hide it *all*
under a bushel.

Jim

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==================================================

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:25:52 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Damned right. Why, just look at the people here on this newsgroup: dumb
as
fence posts, and probably 80% of them were educated in the public
schools.

BTW, which private academy did you graduate from? G

Ed Huntress

Ed, Im as dumb as a bag of rocks, and I graduated from a public
school.

Point, set and match.

Well, then, you're certainly too dumb to have an opinion on this subject
that's worthy of the name. g

The irony of this always grabs me when this discussion comes up. Here is a
bunch of intelligent, knowledgable people who graduated (for the most part)
from public schools, talking about how dumb and ignorant the people are who
graduate from public schools.

It gives me whiplash just to think about it.

Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress says...

The irony of this always grabs me when this discussion comes up. Here is a
bunch of intelligent, knowledgable people who graduated (for the most part)
from public schools, talking about how dumb and ignorant the people are who
graduate from public schools.

It gives me whiplash just to think about it.

No Ed, it's a simple issue. Keep your eye on the money.
Pay for parochial school with public money? Smart, if they
can convice the government to do it.

Jim

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==================================================

Hey haven't you noticed that I am one of those voucher advocates 8-) ?

First not all public school teachers are inept, etc. I do some
volunteering at the local high school. But I am sure that some of
them are inept, etc. Some of it is because of the administration at
some of the schools. We had some inept engineers at work too and it
was because the management never actually fired anyone. So some
engineers never bothered to learn anything new after they graduated.
Of course in Aerospace, we usually had periodic layoffs and generally
the more inept were the ones that were laid off.


So I think part of the problem is the management and that some of the
inept teachers can be motivated. Some will have to go, but if the
schools improve more people will stay in teaching and more will be
attracted to teaching. Now if you really want to cause hate and
discontent, consider importing teachers from some other countries. We
could grant visas to qualified teachers from countries as England,
Ireland, Australia, New Zealand. Maybe some of those from India that
speak well enough to do telephone support. What is the visa? H1B or
something.

Yesterday I helped cheer up one of the teachers at the high school. A
parent had come in without bothering to make an appointment to
complain that her kid should have gotten a higher grade. Just as well
she did not complain to me.

Some subjects would benefit from computer aided instruction too. They
keep saying that there are not enough math and science teachers. But
those subjects could have more of the subject presented on a computer
with end of the chapter tests to let the teacher know who was
comprehending and who needed help.

Dan



jim rozen wrote in message

But Dan, the one cornerstone of the voucher advocates is that
public school teachers are inept, inefficient, and overpaid.
They won't get hired by the private schools they're so bad.
So I re-iterate Fitch's question, where do the new, good,
cheap teachers come from?


Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

The Feds have had a large hand in local Education for many years.

Heck - In 61 - that is 1961, I took a German class and the books were
all paid for by the Federal government. NDEA - National Defense Education Act.
Likewise while I taught at the University, I taught classes at the local
high school. Those were Electronics - A Technology class. I worked for the
State of Texas during those hours, the local school district made out like
a bandit. The class had federal impact funds and paid for 100% outside of
their budget. And they got paid for it as well. Such a deal.

I worked both jobs for 10 years and stayed one more year at the University.

So since at least the second world war or soon thereafter and very likely before,
there has been Federal purse strings tying the hands of some and giving the
flex in others. Plenty of waste exists - during the 70's and 80's (I have friends
still working in the school district) the head shed - central office that is -
grew like the children in the baby boom. Many many many new titles and depts...

Feather bedding never had it over Administrators and Teachers Unions (different ones).

Martin

Gunner wrote:

On 18 Feb 2004 18:06:42 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Gunner says...


Nationwide standardized testing. Not just per state.

W H A T ??????

Hold the phone, somebody just kidnapped gunner
and is impersonating him on usenet! I can't
believe the one and only *true* gunner would advocate
a change from state and local control, to big
government federal control, on an issue like this.



Psst..no big government control. Government mandated Standards. The
state and local systems must meet those standards (as they do now) to
be accredited. Someone has to set a national standard that each state
and local government must meet. Including teacher quality standards.


Education has *always* been handled mostly on a local
level, and to some degree on a statewide level. To
suggest that the federal government should step in
and set standards for education, to set up and supervise
testing, and to attempt to punish those who don't
perform, is possibly one of the most *liberal* ideas
that have floated by on this ng in quite some time.


Think of it as UL Labs. No sticker, no creditation. No creditation,
no local money to the school. Simple. Lots of national standards for
things, such as the fire codes. ( in addition to local ones, which
generally follow the national ones..though not always)
Think of it as crash test standards...lol

Hell..it could be any independant organization, But the Department of
Education is already set up. Shrug. They already mandate various
quality standards

http://www.ed.gov

Its evident that state and local agencies are unable or unwilling to
set reasonable standards.

I'm sure you want to rephrase what you thinking of,
because that came as a bit of a shocker.


Nope..see my rational above.

Gunner

.....


And mores the pity. Want to give us a clue as to who was behind that
program being shut down?

I think we both know.

My understanding is that NY is in a major budget
crunch. They're cutting everything. But I'll
ask my buddy in the know, and report back.

Jim

================================================ ==
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================ ==


"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

jim rozen wrote:...
Malcolm Kirkpatrick says...

MK. The State has several options: 1) regulate, 2) leave eligibility
criteria to accreditation agencies, 3) test students at the begining
and end of the school year, and pay for performance. Or 4) let parents
decide which institution shall receive the taxpayers' K-12 education
subsidy.

They will regulate no matter what. This is a given.

MK. Not at all. The question was whether school vouchers will prompt
State regulation of heretofore independent and parochial schools. If
that State has not yet regulated them at the level which would prevent
enactment of school vouchers, there is no reason to suppose that it
will regulate independent schools, post voucher. It --could--, but it
doesn't have to. As I point out, the State could leave eligibility
criteria to accreditation agencies.

MK. The most effective accountability mechanism humans have yet
invented is the ability of unhappy customers to take their business
elsewhere.

And yet, this is exactly how the education business works
right *now*. Some folks do take their business elsewhere.
Vouchers won't change that.

MK. School vouchers would most certainly expand the range of options
available to parents, and the number of parents taking options outside
the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.

jim rozen wrote:...
Malcolm Kirkpatrick says...

"If the government would make up its mind to require for every child a
good education, it might save itself the trouble of providing one. It
might leave to parents to obtain the education where and how they
pleased, and content itself with helping to pay the school fees of the
poorer classes of children, and defraying the entire school expense of
those who have no one else to pay for them." -- J.S. Mill, On Liberty

You're quoting "On Liberty" to *prove* that vouchers work,
right now?

MK. No. I quoted Lassibile and Gomez:

MK. Gerard Lassibile and Lucia Navarro Gomez, ["Organization and
Efficiency of Educational Systems: some empirical findings", pg. 16,
"Comparative Education", Vol. 36 #1, Feb 2000]. "Furthermore, the
regression results indicate that countries where private education is
more widespread perform significantly better than countries where it
is more limited. The result showing the private sector to be more
efficient is similar to those found in other contexts with individual
data (see, for example, Psucharopoulos, 1987; Jiminez, et. al, 1991).
This finding should convince countries to reconsider policies that
reduce the role of the private sector in the field of education".

Ha ha. No, I mean an actual US state that has installed
a voucher plan, and demonstrable evidence that education
is a) better and b) cheaper.

MK. The questions keep changing. School vouchers work (Lassibile and
Gomez). Competition between school districts improves performance (my
own work, but anyone can replicate it with NCES statistics). See also
the work on district size of Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby.

Take care. Homeschool if you can.

http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html (One page. Marvin Minsky
comment on school. Please read this.)
http://www.schoolchoices.org (Massive site. Useful links).
http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/index.html
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=pb&id=289
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11606 (School Reform News
on Sweden's school voucher policy)
http://www.nlpc.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 03:13:51 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:25:52 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Damned right. Why, just look at the people here on this newsgroup: dumb
as
fence posts, and probably 80% of them were educated in the public
schools.

BTW, which private academy did you graduate from? G

Ed Huntress

Ed, Im as dumb as a bag of rocks, and I graduated from a public
school.

Point, set and match.

Well, then, you're certainly too dumb to have an opinion on this subject
that's worthy of the name. g


Hell Ed..I can always give my opinion. 1st Amendment and all that.

The irony of this always grabs me when this discussion comes up. Here is a
bunch of intelligent, knowledgable people who graduated (for the most part)
from public schools, talking about how dumb and ignorant the people are who
graduate from public schools.

It gives me whiplash just to think about it.

Ed Huntress

Perhaps its because there has been such a noticeable decline in that
education in the years since we have graduated, that we can comment
on it and not be hypocritical?

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 19 Feb 2004 18:35:31 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

The states bitch about Unfunded Mandates forced on them by the Feds.
And in many cases they are rightly ****ed.

While this is would be a Mandate..the expenses are already supposed to
be born by the states in providing a quality education. Which they
already spend money on..and damned poorly.

Yep it would be a mandate - but I noticed you dodged the
constitutional issue. If they oppose any kind of mandate,
they will oppose *this* one.


Since when has a State been able to dodge a Federal Mandate? A hell of
a lot of western states would really really like to be able to do
that.

They will say that the federal govenment has no place in
setting educational standards. You of all people should
object to big govenment telling states what to do.

Im a pragmatic libertarian. Indeed there are some things the Feral
Government should handle. And I think setting nationwide educational
standards should be one of them, particularly since we have so much
economic drain to deal with when competing against other nations.

Gunner, admit it, you really do have a copy of "The
Progessive" under your mattress at home! :^)

Jim

Only if you admit to having a copy of Bircher literature under yours.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On 19 Feb 2004 18:53:47 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Malcolm
Kirkpatrick says...

"If the government would make up its mind to require for every child a
good education, it might save itself the trouble of providing one. It
might leave to parents to obtain the education where and how they
pleased, and content itself with helping to pay the school fees of the
poorer classes of children, and defraying the entire school expense of
those who have no one else to pay for them." -- J.S. Mill, On Liberty

You're quoting "On Liberty" to *prove* that vouchers work,
right now?

Ha ha. No, I mean an actual US state that has installed
a voucher plan, and demonstrable evidence that education
is a) better and b) cheaper.

Jim

http://www.nber.org/~confer/2001/hoxby01/peterson.pdf

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01...vouchers.reut/

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/pubaf...rson_1000.html

http://www.swlearning.com/economics/.../vouchers.html

Good results from the proponents, bad results from the Teachers
Unions, you be the judge.

Gunner



================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

"Gunner" wrote in message
...


The irony of this always grabs me when this discussion comes up. Here is
a
bunch of intelligent, knowledgable people who graduated (for the most
part)
from public schools, talking about how dumb and ignorant the people are
who
graduate from public schools.

It gives me whiplash just to think about it.

Ed Huntress

Perhaps its because there has been such a noticeable decline in that
education in the years since we have graduated, that we can comment
on it and not be hypocritical?

Nope. It's because you guys don't check your facts, and because you play
fast and loose with statistics that you haven't really studied.

hmm...maybe you were right about public-school educations, after all. g

Ed Huntress

strabo wrote:

You say that you generally know more of some subjects
than others. I'll buy that. Because you didn't study a subject
and your child did is one thing but to bury yourself in
self-deprecating apologies is something else. Look up
passive-aggression.

Ed H. and Jim S. seem to be using inadequate sample sizes to make some
pretty sweeping statements. (As I'm only picking up parts of this as I
mark the thread read, I may be doing Ed H. a disservice.)

"strabo" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:52:30 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Don Wilkins" wrote in message
.. .

big snip

Because it is not politically correct to suggest that one student may
not learn as well as another. When I was in school each grade had an
"A" & a "B" class and everyone knew what those designations meant. If
one suggested that today there would be a tar and feather party and a
trip out of town on a rail. Actually I think both groups would benefit
as both could be taught closer to their level of competence but the PC
police wouldn't allow it.


'Sorry for clipping so much interesting thought, but, in the interest of
time, just one thing you may be interested in: My son's school does have
two
tracks, with A and B classes in nearly every program. In math, it's three
tracks: "Standard," "Advanced," and "Accelerated," which is Advanced at
double-time. There are no apologies made for it.

While we're on the subject let's look at standards.

The following is excerted from the WISCONSIN MODEL ACADEMIC
STANDARDS for Health Education.

www.dpi.state.wi.us/dpi/standards/pdf/health.pdf

++++++++++++++++
Introduction

Defining the Academic Standards

What are academic standards? Academic standards specify what
students should know and be able to do, what they might be asked
to do to give evidence of standards, and how well they must
perform. They include content, performance, and proficiency
standards.

- Content standards refer to what students should know and be
able to do.

- Performance standards tell how students will show that they
are meeting a standard.

- Proficiency standards indicate how well students must
perform.

++++++++++++++++

1 - The first, "Content standards", tells us what students should
know.

OK.

Why not call it "subject", "contents" or "Course Contents"?
If standards are analagous to goals, how does "standards" relate
to "content"? In short, how can the subject also be the goal?


2 - The second, "Performance standards", tells us that the
students are meeting a standard.

That's nice. Does this mean 'the goals of performance'?
Apparently not but more importantly *how* do we know that
students are meeting a standard (achieving a goal)?

3 - The third, "Proficiency standards", tells us "how well
students must perform."

We already know "how well" they must perform. They must "meet a
standard" (achieve a goal). Performance is the measure of
achieving goals (standards). Proficiency is the point at which
the standard (the goal) is met. So what is this point and how
do we know when it is met?

One example of circular logic and doubletalk in contemporary
education.


These things are the result of the infusion of ROM (Results-Oriented
Management) that came from '80s business models and that were transferred to
state school boards and to other government agencies and bureaus. It's a
crock of baloney. It started at the same time as the movement for uniform
standards-testing and the general worship of business management theory by
right-wing politicians and bureaucrats.

Management has moved on but bureaucracies have not. They were told they had
to produce measurable results and they haven't been told anything different
since. Adding their natural tendency toward educational pedantry to naive
business-management pedantry, they create these little monstrosities, in
which they spend more time telling you that they have to measure and that
they're going to measure, than they spend telling you what they're going to
be measuring.

Ed Huntress

"strabo" wrote in message
...

We already know "how well" they must perform. They must "meet a
standard" (achieve a goal). Performance is the measure of
achieving goals (standards). Proficiency is the point at which
the standard (the goal) is met. So what is this point and how
do we know when it is met?

One example of circular logic and doubletalk in contemporary
education.


I was married to a teacher for close to 30 years don't get me started. All I
will say is, welcome to the world of education.

In article , Gunner says...

Im a pragmatic libertarian. Indeed there are some things the Feral
Government should handle. And I think setting nationwide educational
standards should be one of them, particularly since we have so much
economic drain to deal with when competing against other nations.

OK, I think that the govenment should give me LOTS of MONEY
but it ain't gonna happen. You keep on blythly ignoring
that simple fact that the consitution does not give the
federal government the job of regulating education in states!

Gunner, admit it, you really do have a copy of "The
Progessive" under your mattress at home! :^)

Only if you admit to having a copy of Bircher literature under yours.

Do shotguns and rifles count?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 20 Feb 2004 12:20:50 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Im a pragmatic libertarian. Indeed there are some things the Feral
Government should handle. And I think setting nationwide educational
standards should be one of them, particularly since we have so much
economic drain to deal with when competing against other nations.

OK, I think that the govenment should give me LOTS of MONEY
but it ain't gonna happen. You keep on blythly ignoring
that simple fact that the consitution does not give the
federal government the job of regulating education in states!

Want me to give you a long list of existing Federal regulations
already in effect that are mandated to the states? How about "no
child left behind" for a start..then we can go with environmental laws
and dig downwards from there.

Prag´ma`tism
Noun 1. pragmatism - (philosophy) the doctrine that practical
consequences are the criteria of knowledge and meaning and value
philosophy - the rational investigation of questions about existence
and knowledge and ethics
philosophical doctrine, philosophical theory - a doctrine accepted by
adherents to a philosophy
2. pragmatism - the attribute of accepting the facts of life and
favoring practicality and literal truth
realism
practicality - concerned with actual use rather than theoretical
possibilities



Gunner, admit it, you really do have a copy of "The
Progessive" under your mattress at home! :^)

Only if you admit to having a copy of Bircher literature under yours.

Do shotguns and rifles count?

Jim

Only if they are not coated with Bircher dust bunnies

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

In article , Gunner says...

Want me to give you a long list ..

Nope. Just a short list of states that have already
put vouchers into effect, and have demonstrated that
education there is 'better' and cheaper now that
they are in use.

Could be even *one* state.

Maybe someplace in the south. Florida perhaps?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Ed Huntress wrote:

These things are the result of the infusion of ROM (Results-Oriented
Management) that came from '80s business models and that were transferred to
state school boards and to other government agencies and bureaus. It's a
crock of baloney. It started at the same time as the movement for uniform
standards-testing and the general worship of business management theory by
right-wing politicians and bureaucrats.


Exactly. I think that to a great extent it was a reaction to the
"New Math" that none of the right-wingers could understand. Rather
than teaching the rote memorization that was plenty good enough for
grampa, some groups of teachers were trying to introduce more advanced
concepts earlier. Reactionary parents and school boards freaked. Alas,
the stupid school boards and parents have *far* too much power in the
US. Look at the entire "Creation Science" scandal :-(


Now they're bitching about the results of what they themselves created.

"hamei" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

These things are the result of the infusion of ROM (Results-Oriented
Management) that came from '80s business models and that were
transferred to
state school boards and to other government agencies and bureaus. It's a
crock of baloney. It started at the same time as the movement for
uniform
standards-testing and the general worship of business management theory
by
right-wing politicians and bureaucrats.


Exactly. I think that to a great extent it was a reaction to the
"New Math" that none of the right-wingers could understand. Rather
than teaching the rote memorization that was plenty good enough for
grampa, some groups of teachers were trying to introduce more advanced
concepts earlier. Reactionary parents and school boards freaked. Alas,
the stupid school boards and parents have *far* too much power in the
US. Look at the entire "Creation Science" scandal :-(


Now they're bitching about the results of what they themselves created.

Hmm. I think you're overreaching a bit, because it is true that public
schools in other countries have been outperforming ours, and a lot of adults
are frustrated in trying to find out why.

However, you're right that their "solutions," like an excessive focus on
standards-based testing, are more an expression of that frustration than
anything else. They're grasping at straws. They should be grasping at the
parents' throats. Where parents are parenting and where they're involved,
the kids are doing quite well.

Ed Huntress

On 20 Feb 2004 16:03:09 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Want me to give you a long list ..

Nope. Just a short list of states that have already
put vouchers into effect, and have demonstrated that
education there is 'better' and cheaper now that
they are in use.

Could be even *one* state.

Maybe someplace in the south. Florida perhaps?

Jim

I already posted a listing and an article in which a number of pilot
programs have been in operation since IIRC 1997.

Shows how much you have been paying attention huh?

Now about those Federal Mandates you snipped....

chuckle.. I love it when you do that....

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas