On 15 Feb 2004 15:15:29 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Jim..the money ALL goes to education. Its not rebated and spendable on
TV sets and boats. Vouchers simply allow you to decide which education
vendor gets your money.

Right, but all the problem kids, the expensive ones, will still
stay in public school - because no private school can afford to
educate them.

Yes? So?

But there won't *be* any public schools after vouchers are
installed, right - because they're so bad nobody will send
their kids there. So where do the trouble kids go? The
ones that are developmentally disabled or otherwise more
expensive to educate?

Yes there will be public schools as sooner or later the public schools
will be forced to divest themselves of top heavy administrations,
bull**** agendas and power structures and actually TEACH once again.

Think of it as the US auto manufactures suddenly being faced with the
Japanese auto manufactures. Ford, GM etc etc didnt die. They adapted,
changed, improved and are now making good cars.


Are you in favor of making entrance into the private schools
guaranteed, so that any kid can go wherever they want? Sounds
to me like that's a prescription for disaster - you've just
dragged the private schools down to public school level.
Also, you've just entangled the government into the affairs
of the private (in some cases religious) schools.

Nope...and frankly I dont care if the school is religious or not. Its
the parents decision as to what sort of education their kids get. As
long as the kids in any school pass strict nationwide testing.

Example: the school my daughter was attending was private,
and had no facilities that were ADA compliant. They didn't
have to. But in the new voucher scheme, there *is* no
public school, because it's been run out of town on a rail
for being so terrible. So now kids are going to be knocking
on the door of private schools, demanding to be let in.
But some of them are in wheelchairs, etc. "Hey, this voucher
says I can come here. You better make the classrooms ADA
compliant." What do they say, 'nope' - the voucher is no good
here?

If there is a need, private enterprise always springs up to take care
of it.

What makes you think that the new breed of schools are going
to be any different (better) than the ones we have now? Sounds
to me like the same problems are going to keep on cropping up.
Why not fix the problem where it is now, rather than making
new ones?

Jim


Because the new breed of schools will not be run by the NEA, the
teachers unions and will be run on a merit basis, not tenure.

National standardized testing will insure the final product at the
least meets the standards..higher standards that are not dumbed down
by the teachers unions etc etc.

Competition always ensures a better product.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:42 GMT, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:46:29 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
Bummer

Yeah, like when I told you that the deer weren't hiding. snorf

Wayne

Yup..you were wrong then too.

Must suck to be you.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Sue wrote:
On 15 Feb 2004 00:32:21 -0800, (Excitable Boy)
wrote:


Gunner wrote in message . ..


Is this why most teachers and politicians send their children to
private schools? Because they are bitter resentful malcontents?

Interesting


"Most" teachers and politicians ? What a crock of ****,
Gunner. You're lying. Liar liar pants on fire.


Well, now, there's a mature response.
Sue



Right. And Gunner's ridiculous crap is "mature" and "educated."

"... most teachers and politicians send their children to private
schools ..." How can he even type such egregious nonsense without
his nose growing to unprecedented lengths ? Or his other recent off-
the-wall trash indicating that boobs on Chinese girls all come from
plastic surgery ? Gunner is retarded. I won't say he drools 'cuz I
haven't been close enough to check, thank God, but as far as brain
power goes ? Good thing humans don't need brains to eliminate or
Gunner'd be so backed up he'd die of internal **** poisoning.

The man is a buffoon. There is no point in even TRYING to have a
rational discussion with someone like that.

Dan Clingman wrote:

I have a first grade daughter who is attending public school. She is
doing well but is board out of her skull. The class is taught to the
lowest 1/3 of the students, who for the most part are at that level
because of the home environment. My wife volunteers two time a week,
working in the class, so she has first hand knowledge of what is going
on.

We are considering home school for shear efficiency. She can get a
focused education in three hours at home and have time for her other
activities. Now she comes home exhausted and really has to push to get
her sports, chores, home work and music lesson done; plus, a first
grader really needs time just to play. That extra four hours would be
gold as it is everything, but school, slips.

I don't think home school is for every family or child but until the
public school gets its act together it is a viable option to parent who
want the best for their kids.

My wife put her engineering career on hold to raise our kids. This cut
our monetary income in half but with the incrase in quality of life,
personal and family happiness we feel this is quit a bargain.

BTW my doughter played the piano at her school talent show on Thursday
and amazed the audience. I knew she was good but the people around me
were literally open mouthed. It was very hard not to elbow the people
beside me and say that my daughter.

One Proud Dad.

Dan C


Given the fact that you don't seem to know the difference between "bored" and
board", "sheer" and "shear", "quite" and "quit", "daughter" and "doughter", and
a few other major English language deficiencies, I strongly suggest that if you
decide to home school your daughter, to at least get and English tutor.

"monetary income"? :-)

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Chris Johnson wrote:



The most serious problem with Clark is that he's a power-mad,
pompous tinhorn dictator-in-training. And he has scant respect
for the Constitutionally protected, inalienable rights of the
common American citizen. He's particularly bad about the 2nd
amendment, but don't worry, he'd ignore the other nine as well
if he could.

"...to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies,
foreign and domestic..." Those are some of the words in the
oath he took as an officer. He is not doing as he swore an
oath to do, and would prefer NOT to do so, as HE is an enemy
of that very Constitution. By rights, he should be tried and
hanged for TREASON.

CJ

Chris,
I like most of your posts but on this one you made a mistake.
changed the title of the thread from " OT- I thought
Bush on immigration was evil?" to "Clark is correct".
The "Clark" he is referring to is me, not General Clark, the guy in the
news.
I am a pro second amendment poster that was arguing religion with a
couple trolls who reacted to my by line.
Clark

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

"Tom Stovall" wrote in message
...

According to the Houston Chronicle, the Houston Independent School
District has 2.7 administrators for every teacher. Teachers no longer
teach, they jump through administrative hoops held by folks whose main
function appears to be justifying their existence in the educational
system by determining whether or not a syllabus is politically correct
and places enough emphasis on the TASP tests.

In the interest of reporting accuracy g, HISD has 0.13 administrators per
teacher, not 2.7:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/100_largest/table_04_1.asp

Sometimes, especially when they want to color the truth for some purpose of
their own, people report total non-teaching staff as "administrators." If
you include all of the janitors, bus drivers, nurses, secretaries, etc.,
HISD has 1.5 "administrators" per teacher.

But you appear to be referring to those who manage or administer, or who
make curriculum decisions, and that number is 0.13.

Those are right in line with national averages. Houston appears to have its
janitorial/maintenance staff ("instructional support") listed as employees,
unlike, for example, Chicago. So your non-administrative staff looks a
little high, but that's probably because of the way Houston counts those
people.

Ed Huntress

"Don Wilkins" wrote in message
...

Well today I got a phone call for some help with a chemistry problem
from a son who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and works for a blue chip
organization. This is not the first call and hopefully will not be the
last but I still know chemistry that he has not learned yet.

It reminds me of my research director's comment. "You are very good
but you will never catch up with me because I am still learning." He
was still learning but he was in his late 70s at the time. He was very
good but he died in 1981 and I am still learning. Some day my son will
still be learning and I will not be.

I would like to see how your son would do on some of the geography
exams I took back in the 30s.

I don't know, but the content of your geography classes in the '30s is now
taught as part of history. g

Ed Huntress

(Don Wilkins) wrote in message . ..


I would like to see how your son would do on some of the geography
exams I took back in the 30s.



Pretty poorly, probably - since most of those countries are gone.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:30:56 -0500, axolotl
wrote:

jim rozen wrote:


Right, but all the problem kids, the expensive ones, will still
stay in public school - because no private school can afford to
educate them.



But some of them are in wheelchairs, etc. "Hey, this voucher
says I can come here. You better make the classrooms ADA
compliant." What do they say, 'nope' - the voucher is no good
here?


It looks like I am the only one in the group who can settle this. I am
impartial; my wife tells me I have a pathological hatred of school.

First to Jim:

The state already has kids with "special needs" sent to private school.
One the big items in my town's school budget is the cost of sending a
few kids to very expensive private schools that hopefully meet their needs.

To Ed and Gunner and the rest:

You can't really argue. It's similar to STD statistics. The national
statistics are interesting, but what really affects you is the condition
of the person in bed next to you. In education you can prove anything
you want because kids are different and respond to different methods of
teaching. I am in favor of vouchers, because it would give easier access
to the different methods of teaching. I am puzzled because the people
that tell me how wonderful the public school system is are the the first
to say no one will go there if given a choice. In my case (and Ed's)
there are a limited number of school choices built into the public
system. My son went to a "magnet" high school. He did very well there.
He is that kind of kid. _But_ one size does not fit all. There should be
(accessable) "magnet" schools for the other kinds of kids.

Want apocryphal stories?

My son went to a lot of science fairs, physics competitions and the
like. He tells me the first to be eliminated in any meet were the home
schooled kids. They weren't considered competition.
This shows that home schooling doesn't work.

http://www.drexel.edu/dvsf/winners/winners2003.htm

Click on Edit, search enter the word "home", then search....

Seems to be a lot of 1-3rd place winners in that category....

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:07:13 -0800, "Richard Johnson"
wrote:


Teaching has been in my job since before I graduated High School
(Instructional Aide). When I went into the Naval Reserve my Rate was that
of Tradevman. That job maintained and operated simulators (Link Trainers
through ASW jez and mad simulators.) Being an Instructor was part of that
job. Later in CATV I became the back up Instructor for the Technical
Classes, and that is where I got my Credential (Lifetime, Limited Service).
SD City College approached my Employer to set up an AS degree program in
CATV Technology. So I did that with the Regional Trainer. Even now in
management, I do a lot of teaching. I enjoy the training of adults. They
want to be there, and want to get the knowledge and skills. The ones that
are difficult are the Jr. High/Middle School and High School students. It
is rare to find one that wants to be there, or has the desire to learn what
you are teaching.

Rich

Understood.

I'm a retired Senior Chief.

Went from HS to a combo college/tradeschool to become a computer tech
back when a computer filled up a good sized room. Went into the Navy
and became an engineman and went to Nam 3 times to play on the PBRs.
Then they didn't need so many enginemen any more and became a
machinests mate and went to sea on the big ships. Besides boilers and
big steam engines, gained specialties (NECs) in cryogenics, heating
and air conditioning, and hydraulics. Even got out of the Navy once
and was a cop for almost 3 years. Decided I wasn't cop material, went
back in the service. Went thru the Navy's Instructor Training course,
and was an instructor a couple times. A career counselor. A
recruiter. And along the line picked up a certification as a computer
professional, a 4 yr degree in engineering, a masters in sociology, a
real estate realtors license, and after retiring got licensed as a
Chief A Boiler - Unlimited operating engineer, a couple electricians
licenses, and a license for heating, ventilation, and air
conditioning. Worked for a phone company for 10 yrs. And have been
working in the building automation systems and energy management field
(DDC controls for HVAC equipment, fire alarm systems, door access
control, video surveillance, and intrusion alarms) for the past 2 1/2
yrs.

G One of these days I'm gonna figure out what I want to do for a
living when I grow up.

Actually, at one time thought about picking up a license as a regular
teacher. Wouldn't be particularly hard as I already have most of the
required coursework done. But nixed the idea for assorted reasons.
Among others, by nature I'm a tinkerer and am most content when
playing with machinery, electrical and electronic circuits, making
physical things, designing them, fixing them, and so forth. And when
I looked into teaching back when I first retired from the Navy, and
lived in the Twin Cities Metro area, prospects for teaching that I
might enjoy looked dim.

Chuckle ... the vocational/shop/technical instructors, once they were
in ... had the job ... yah just about had to wait for the sucker to
die or retire before an full time opening became available. I got to
know several, as several were ex-Navy. They could get part time work
for me, but were honest and told me that an opening for full time
usually entailed a wait of several years. I figured "Oh well" and
moved on.

The current teaching gig I do on the side is something new that
recently came up. I now live in western Minnesota (it's a much
shorter drive for me to go to Fargo than it is for me to go to the
Twin Cities). Anyway, with the changing job market, technology, and
so forth. A local state technical college and some employers and a
couple trade unions knocked heads together and figured out some things
needed to change. The nature of certain jobs were changing. And some
relevant portions of the tech college's curriculum were wayyyy behind
the times as concerns what was actually going on out in the field.

So I kinda got drafted. As I said before, sometimes it's a pain
knowing the wrong people. And a certain friend of mine who is on
staff at that tech college, I still owe a swift kick in the ass. It
isn't just the one 6 hour teaching session per week that's a pain.
It's also the PIA of developing, writng, rewriting, modifying, etc a
new curriculm for some knowledge areas on the fly, in conjunction with
that which is a royal PIA.

The particular issues I'm trying to address is that many companies
that used to specialize in certain low voltage work (i.e. sound
systems, voice and data comm, CCTV, door access, intrusion alarm, fire
alarm, energy management, etc) are now trying to become "integrated"
or multiple service providers. So they want some cross training for
employees. i.e. A voice and data comm guy might still be a voice and
data comm specialist, but employer wants him to know at least the
basics of fire alarm, door access control, CCTV, etc. So, if voice
and data comm work is slow this week, guy can help the CCTV guys, for
instance, and has a clue as to what's going on. Same scenario for
guys in the service and troublecall departments of an employer.
Service guy might be a specialist in one area, but needs to know
something about many. This is becoming more and more of an issue as
many of these systems are now becoming interconnected, and single
employers are trying to provide multiple services.

Another side issue I've been developing some instruction for is for
the HVAC guys. (Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) Trying to
up their electrical knowledge and get more of them familiar with
modern direct digital controls. Which are seeing ever increasing
utilization.

Not that I have to try to teach ALL of this stuff. The course I'm
teaching is mostly a makeshift, make do thing. To bring some guys
already working up to snuff on some particular, specialized areas. As
requested by some employers. But it's a matter of figuring out on the
fly so to speak of how do you teach the basics of digital electronics,
without trying to make an electronics technician out of a HVAC tech,
or a CCTV installer. Just enough, and the right stuff, so the guy
knows the basics that he might actually need to know to have a clue as
to how these things actually work. Enough so he knows what the
equiment is doing, and why, and can do basic troubleshooting. In the
real world, he's not gonna be repairing circuit boards or anything.
Just needs to determine if it's working properly. If it's not, toss
it and put in new.

So that's a part of the problem, and a big part. Determining WHAT to
teach. What parts of a set of knowledge are worthwhile and useful to
these guys and gals. There is not enough time or money to teach them
everything in depth, and they don't actually need it.

Anyway, it's one of the reasons my friend asked me to step in. The on
staff instructors have good knowledge and are good in their
specialties. But, for instance, the guy who is their "heavy" in
teaching electronics doesn't really know which bits and pieces of the
curriculm are really useful to that HVAC tech, for instance, and which
parts are things he doesn't really need to know to do his job. This
is where I come in and the reason I got drafted. I know, and have
done out in the field on real job sites what these guys are gonna be
doing. So, for instance, right now, I'm goaled with refining down a
digital electronics curriculum, which will still be taught as is to
electronics techs and such ... to a bare bones, only what yah need to
know, fast course that they'd like to fit into eight, 4 hr long, night
classes.

Supposedly, after I get that down and set. A regular staff member
from the electronics department will actually teach it, from then on.
He just needs to know what bits and pieces are most useful to teach,
the focus and goal, and the best selection of live lab equipment and
exercises to use to teach the students who'll be in that particular
specialty class what they need to know. But no more than that, as
there is no time for it.

Chuckle, I have it all roughed out. Now is proofing time. Running
the first class thru. Ironing out the "Oops" and rough spots.
Testing my theories against actual performance. i.e. Did the student
actually met the goal? Did I actually teach him or her what I
intended, in a way he or she understood. Can he or she pass the
checkpoint tests? Which are part written test, part sit down with
real equipment and make it work or discover the faulty part.

I've had to drop back and punt a couple times. Change a presentation
which before did not impart the knowledge I wished to impart. i.e.
Previously on the first shot of explaining logic gates, I failed
dismally. Changed the presentation, did it again and yah could see
the light bulbs lighting up in their heads and the looks of "Oh ... I
get it now." Proofed by giving em a couple problems and sitting em
down with trainers and they could and did solve the problems and make
working circuits. Even troubleshot first mistakes and corrected them.

They're never, on the job, gonna have to actually make a circuit. But
with these particular folks, some of the gear they may have to work
with is of a nature such that they need to know how AND, NAND, OR,
NOR, XOR, etc gates work. i.e. They'll end up doing a controller
programming problem which uses graphical programming where they'll be
dragging and dropping logic blocks into place and connecting them to
make the device do what they want it to do.

Anyway, after a fashion it's interesting and satisfying. But it's
also aggravating as I have a regular, full time job. I'm getting paid
for this teaching gig, but don't actually need the money. And I'd
rather use my off the regular job time to go fishing, chase the old
lady around the bed room til she lets me catch her, etc.

I really gotta figure out how that friend of mine ever got me to say
"Yes" to this idea. And then kick him in the ass. G

My best to you and yours,

Bob

There is no way to compare the performance
of homeschooled kids versus non-homeschooled.

This is ridiculous on its face. Performance by definition is comparable, and
performance was the issue under discussion.

The issue was not the intricacies of WHY there is a disparity of
performance. The issue was some clown's false allegation that home-schooled
children perform at an academically inferior level. In fact they do not, and
the confirmation of that fact that is relative performance on standardized
academic tests: the bell-curve of home-schooled children is shifted forward
of public school children. That is true, it's measurable, and it's objective
performance. You can argue all you want as to why that is true, but the
bottom line is that home-schooled children as a group are not the
inferior-performing mental-defectives that the fellow claimed them to be.

I'd give some examples of how private schooling doesn't work but we are
all getting tired.

A very good post, Kevin and exactly on target. Statistics (even Ed's) can be
presented to say anything you want to say; especially in something as broad as
schooling. Anecdotes as he calls them are to me the only thing I would base a
home schooling decision on. Stastically, the nearby lake averages 3 feet deep,
but anecdotally, it will float your hat & drown your ass. I know personally
40-50 (successful) home schooled kids and interact with a number of both groups
in my 4H (& other volunteer) work. There are no "average" students and I would
make my decisions on specific circumstances; not stats.
Greg Sefton

I strongly suggest that if you
decide to home school your daughter, to at least get and English tutor.

"monetary income"? :-)

Abrasha

You need a few English lessons in speling & punctuation yourself, "asha". )
Why do I read this troll's crap?? About time for the old zapper.
Greg Sefton

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:11:22 -0600, (Don
Wilkins) wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:42 GMT, wrote:

,;On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:46:29 GMT, Gunner
,;wrote:
,;
,;
,;
,;Sorry. You are once again wrong. Looks like its habitual with you.
,;Bummer
,;
,;Yeah, like when I told you that the deer weren't hiding. snorf

I appreciate the snipping but couldn't you have left enough to reveal
the topic?

Sorry. Gunner likes to claim that my anecdotes are wrong. Heck, I
didn't even know that anecdotes could *be* wrong. Thank goodness for
Usenet. ;-) Anyway, this time I said that I know of some sorry
examples of home schooling, most of which are probably below
everybody's radar. He claims that if I can't provide statistics for
the people who aren't included in the statistics, then I'm obviously
wrong..... Last time he claimed that my observations of declining
deer populations in my area were wrong, and that the deer were simply
hiding. Never mind that he has no idea about deer populations *here*,
he followed up his claims by making it obvious that he didn't even
know about deer populations in his own state. Pathetic considering
that it's common knowledge that mule deer populations have declined
dramatically across the entire west. I provided some definitive links
to clue him in, but there was an immediate change from the clatter of
his keyboard being punished, to the sound of crickets chirping. And I
gather it's not the first time that happened. :-)

Wayne

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:15:28 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:42 GMT, wrote:


Yeah, like when I told you that the deer weren't hiding. snorf


Yup..you were wrong then too.

Must suck to be you.

LOL Here Mr. Wildlife expert, I've "researched" the topic by copying
and pasting the URLs from my previous post, and have included the
results of my study below. Which, oddly enough are the exact same
URLs. Now, take a little time out from emailing Hilary jokes to your
friends and light up your denial afterburners!

http://www.nationalreview.com/swan/swan050602.asp
http://tinyurl.com/3ftmv
(http://www.usgs.nau.edu/proceedings/...ule%20deer.pdf)
http://www.azdeer.org/why_name_change.htm
http://www.muledeernet.org/AZtrends.htm

Wayne

Richard Johnson wrote:
As those that can, do. And those the can't do,
teach. I fall into a third catagory, those that can't teach, manage. (And
we NEVER cut our salaries.)

Rich

Way I heard it was those who cant teach teach teachers.
From my wife who has a M Ed. :-)
...lew...

Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

He Kids today know a lot more then when I was a teenager in
1965!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike

Yea. They are almost back UP to the level of when I was a teen ager in
the
40s...:-)
...lew...

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:11:43 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
brought forth from the murky depths:

"Dan Caster" wrote in message
om...
How likely are they to be Asian? They are the higher performing kids.

Dan

'Don't know. You may find it in that report to which I posted a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/HomeSchool/

I just read/scanned that site.

Notably missing from that report was info on how well
the kids were doing in homeschooling. The only mention
of grades was K-5, not achievement or aptitude. By
including students with up to 25 hours/week in school
(vs. homeschool) the intent of the study seems to be
contradicted. Curious. (Isn't regular school ~30 hrs/wk?)

My niece attended a weekly schoolroom class and took her
standardized tests there. It was part of the socialization
required by the Republik of Kalifornia. She and several
of the other kids turned in several weeks' reports each
week and progressed more quickly, a definite advantage over
classroom schooling.


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

posted to rcm only

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:44:57 -0600, Bob G brought
forth from the murky depths:

I'm a retired Senior Chief.

-snip of extremely diverse and fun-filled career-

I really gotta figure out how that friend of mine ever got me to say
"Yes" to this idea. And then kick him in the ass. G

He used your degree in Sociology against you. He did you a
favor then forced you to return it via psychology. Ed Huntress
suggested reading "Influence - The Psychology of Persuasion"
by Robert B. Cialdini. I did so and also now recommend it.


--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

Gunner wrote:

http://www.drexel.edu/dvsf/winners/winners2003.htm

Click on Edit, search enter the word "home", then search....

Seems to be a lot of 1-3rd place winners in that category....


Eleven. Out of three hundred seventy seven. What does it mean? Zip. We
don't know how many of the presenters were home schooled, public
schooled, private schooled, or raised by chimpanzees. Interesting choice
of examples, though. If you go back a couple of years, you will find my
son. Third place (he wuz robbed). Ahead of a home schooled kid.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post. Different
approaches work for different kids. For some, home school may be the
answer. For others, it will be something else. The best anyone can do is
not good enough. If it is your kid, your should be able to do what
works best for them. You should also be aware of what you're giving up
when you make that choice.

Kevin Gallimore


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"no spam for me today thank you very much" wrote in
message news:jf3Yb.328316$xy6.1604708@attbi_s02...
There is no way to compare the performance
of homeschooled kids versus non-homeschooled.

This is ridiculous on its face. Performance by definition is comparable,
and
performance was the issue under discussion.

As soon as I sent that, I realized I should have appended, "with the
information that's available today." The statistics aren't really there.
That's the subject of most of this thread.


The issue was not the intricacies of WHY there is a disparity of
performance. The issue was some clown's false allegation that
home-schooled
children perform at an academically inferior level.

Read the thread. Then tell us if you have more information. So far, we
haven't seen it.

Ed Huntress

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
posted to rcm only

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:44:57 -0600, Bob G brought
forth from the murky depths:

I'm a retired Senior Chief.

-snip of extremely diverse and fun-filled career-

I really gotta figure out how that friend of mine ever got me to say
"Yes" to this idea. And then kick him in the ass. G

He used your degree in Sociology against you. He did you a
favor then forced you to return it via psychology. Ed Huntress
suggested reading "Influence - The Psychology of Persuasion"
by Robert B. Cialdini. I did so and also now recommend it.

Uh-oh. Larry read the book and now he knows the tricks. We're going to have
to watch out for him...g!

Ed Huntress

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:11:43 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
brought forth from the murky depths:

"Dan Caster" wrote in message
om...
How likely are they to be Asian? They are the higher performing kids.

Dan

'Don't know. You may find it in that report to which I posted a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/HomeSchool/

I just read/scanned that site.

Notably missing from that report was info on how well
the kids were doing in homeschooling. The only mention
of grades was K-5, not achievement or aptitude. By
including students with up to 25 hours/week in school
(vs. homeschool) the intent of the study seems to be
contradicted. Curious. (Isn't regular school ~30 hrs/wk?)

I wasn't looking for that when I read it and I'm not going back at it now,
but I thought I saw some scores somewhere. Maybe it was somewhere else.

About that 25 hours/week: that threw me, too, until I noticed that it was a
very small percentage (1/5?) that actually had any connection with public
schools, including attending classes.

The biggest problem with the stats is that the figures for homeschooled kids
are self-selected. There is no scientific sampling involved, so you have to
assume sampling bias, just like a Web-based, voluntary survey of anything.

Ed Huntress

Bravo, Ed

The fallacy of statistics here is, as you said, the public school
statistics include the whole of the population whereas the home school
statistics include a more specialized population where the parent is
(presumably) capable of teaching at the appropriate education levels.
In order to truly compare more accurately (although still skewed), one
should eliminate the top and bottom quintiles from both groups to
eliminate "anomalies" of status, etc.

I do agree, however, that home-schooling kids does tend to make better
use of time. Our current system (I would guess) wastes about half the
school time on discipline, settling down, moving between classes and
things like that.


Koz

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .


"People disagree over homeschooling's social and academic benefits.
Test score data from states requiring testing or from homeschooling
associations, while not totally representative, suggest that tested
homeschooled children are above average (Lines 2001). According to two
Time reporters (Cloud and Morse 2001), "the average SAT score for home
schoolers in 2000 was 1100, compared with 1019 for the general
population."



Kids from disfunctional families and illiterate, impoverished families are
included in the "general population." Home-schooled kids almost exclusively
are not.

Another case of lying with statistics.

In article , Bray Haven says...

what happens
to the kids if the voucher money runs out in mid-year in the
private school? Are they allowed to show up on the public
school's doorstep, and demand to be educated?

Why not?

Because they already *spent* their money in the voucher - remember,
voucher plans seem to work on an 'equal slice' approach.
I can't see why a public school should *not* turn away
a case like that. Otherwise the public school budget will have
to go up even *more* to accomdate that sort of thing.

Seems like that's almost what voucher proponents really want,
so that they can get even *more* than their slice of the pie.
Sorry but it always seems to come down to greediness.

They are still payig for public educations over & above any of the
proposed voucher amounts I've seen. The amounts are also much less than it
costs the local school system to "educate" that student.

The voucher plans I've heard of provide for a full education.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

North wrote in message . ..

Here's one.
The owner of this yahoogroup:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a-survivalist
Her name is Denice and she is a single stay at home mother of 4 girls
who lives on close to $900 a month in child support with very little
state aid and she homeschools.

So you want more barefoot welfare mothers making a living
having more kids to earn child support from?
How much more in "state aid" do they cost us? Federal
aid? Tax "rebates"? Medical costs?
Is she raising 4 more welfare moms?

How many guns in the "house"? Bibles?

Did she herself manage to pass biology so that she
knows where all the kids came from? WHAT is she competent
to teach?
--
Cliff

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:13:28 -0500, axolotl
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

http://www.drexel.edu/dvsf/winners/winners2003.htm

Click on Edit, search enter the word "home", then search....

Seems to be a lot of 1-3rd place winners in that category....


Eleven. Out of three hundred seventy seven. What does it mean? Zip. We
don't know how many of the presenters were home schooled, public
schooled, private schooled, or raised by chimpanzees. Interesting choice
of examples, though. If you go back a couple of years, you will find my
son. Third place (he wuz robbed). Ahead of a home schooled kid.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear in my earlier post. Different
approaches work for different kids. For some, home school may be the
answer. For others, it will be something else. The best anyone can do is
not good enough. If it is your kid, your should be able to do what
works best for them. You should also be aware of what you're giving up
when you make that choice.

Kevin Gallimore

11 out of 377. Care to give me the percentage and how it relates to
the number of kids actually homeschooled versus those in public
schools?

The claim was made no homeschooled kid won any science fairs.

I rebutted it.

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:11:02 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...


Just think -
Gunner could run for the local school board and probably be
elected shiver.

Ah...I think he once was a member of his local school board. g

Ed Huntress

I was, which is what gave me the bad attitude I have towards public
education today.

Between propaganda masquerading as text books,

Actual facts, information, history, sciences ...... little
right-winger & fundie propaganda ..... logical thought expected ...

and idiots masquerading as unnameable teachers,

No guns in school?

and complete buffoons as administrators...

Guys that went to college ...

I found it was simply impossible to deal with them and never sat again.

Did you show them your guns & kibble?
--
Cliff

Clark Magnuson wrote in message news:8kZXb.194244$U%5.1005567@attbi_s03...

I am a pro second amendment poster that was arguing religion with a
couple trolls who reacted to my by line.
Clark

A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of
atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

Which you seemingly don't understand the subject matter of and
should no doubt change.

What does it have to do with your gun collections & sporran?
--
Cliff

In article ,
Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?

Not if you measure ID diameter and OD circumference

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Cliff Huprich wrote:




I am a pro second amendment poster that was arguing religion with a
couple trolls who reacted to my by line.
Clark



Which you seemingly don't understand the subject matter of and
should no doubt change.

What does it have to do with your gun collections & sporran?




I was just about to assume you were ONLY a Tax-hiking,
Government-expanding, Latte-drinking, Sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New
York Times-reading, Body-piercing, Hollywood-loving, Left-wing, Freak
show troll, when I looked and you actually have posted some non troll
things about metalworking.

How did someone interested in metalworking turn into a liberal troll?

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

In article , Clark Magnuson says...

I was just about to assume you were ONLY a Tax-hiking,
Government-expanding,

Republican.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:06:52 -0500, Nick Hull
wrote:

In article ,
Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?

Not if you measure ID diameter and OD circumference


I will make it clearer.. a bowl with a 10 inch od and a 30 inch od
circumference... I don't think it can get any easier? No ticks or
magic.. just a simple bowl.. come on Cliff.. surely you can do it..


Later,
Mike

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:16:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
brought forth from the murky depths:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
posted to rcm only

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:44:57 -0600, Bob G brought
forth from the murky depths:

I'm a retired Senior Chief.

-snip of extremely diverse and fun-filled career-

I really gotta figure out how that friend of mine ever got me to say
"Yes" to this idea. And then kick him in the ass. G

He used your degree in Sociology against you. He did you a
favor then forced you to return it via psychology. Ed Huntress
suggested reading "Influence - The Psychology of Persuasion"
by Robert B. Cialdini. I did so and also now recommend it.

Uh-oh. Larry read the book and now he knows the tricks. We're going to have
to watch out for him...g!

Nah, I'm still lamenting over how often they still
"get over on me" even though I have learned some of
the tricks.


-
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened.
---
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

In article , Santa Cruz Mike says...

I will make it clearer.. a bowl with a 10 inch od and a 30 inch
[outside]
circumference...

3.14 = 3, for large values of three.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner wrote:

11 out of 377. Care to give me the percentage and how it relates to
the number of kids actually homeschooled versus those in public
schools?

Perhaps you read a little too quickly. I then wrote.

*//
Eleven. Out of three hundred seventy seven. What does it mean? Zip. We
don't know how many of the presenters were home schooled, public
schooled, private schooled, or raised by chimpanzees.
//*

The claim was made no homeschooled kid won any science fairs.

I rebutted it.

Again, let's look at what I wrote.

*//
My son went to a lot of science fairs, physics competitions and the
like. He tells me the first to be eliminated in any meet were the home
schooled kids. They weren't considered competition.
//*

So, unless you were listening in on the conversation, you can't rebut
anything.

I have kids in school. I spend a lot of time worrying about their
education. It is not sport to me.

I'll make this my last comment in this thread, as it appears you are
concerned less with reasoned discourse than some kind of game you are
playing with yourself. Declare yourself the triumphal winner.

Kevin Gallimore


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Bray Haven wrote:...
Dan Caster wrote:...

My thoughts are that you should get a vocher if you have children and
do not send them to public school. I don't care if you home school
them or send them to private school. If you have kids and are not
tsending them to the public schools, you are saving the government
money.

How about if I don't have kids & don't send them to school. Look at all the $
I'm saving the govt.

MK. Someone determines which institution shall receive the taxpayers'
K-12 education subsidy. The legislature commits the funds. Yes,
taxpayers subsidize children with the K-12 subsidy. Politically the
issue between school vouchers and the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel is whether
students, parents, real classroom teachers, and taxpayers, who would
all benefit from school vouchers, weigh more, in your legislator's
mind, than the public sector unions.

"Santa Cruz Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:06:52 -0500, Nick Hull
wrote:

In article ,
Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?


1 Kings chapter 7 verse 23 (Authorised Version): "... and he made a molten
sea, ten cubits from one brim to the other : it was round about ... and a
line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

That's where the nonsense came from.

Ed Huntress

Nick Hull wrote:

In article ,
Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?

Not if you measure ID diameter and OD circumference

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Woops Nick. Check that again. :-)
...lew...

Lewis Hartswick wrote:

Nick Hull wrote:

In article ,
Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

Cliff.. have you figured out how a bowl can have a 10 inch diameter
and a 30 inch circumference yet?

Is it impossible?

Not if you measure ID diameter and OD circumference


Woops Nick. Check that again. :-)
...lew...


Lewis:

Nick had the right idea but inverted the OD/ID. If you had a bowl with
a wall thickness of something like .2255 "cubits" you could check the
diameter across the OD and get 10 "cubits". 10 "cubits" minus .451
"cubits" (2 walls) = 9.549 "cubits". 9.549 "cubits" X pi = 29.999
"cubits" on the ID of the bowl.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob