I lurk here quite a bit, and have been following the threads on Kat
and NO.
What I can't seem to understand is the fact that with a hurricane, you
KNOW it's coming. Not like an earthquake or volcanic eruption or even a
tsunami. You have ample warning. The comparison to the tsunami of
December is apples and oranges. The aftermath is comparable, yes, but
not anything else. On a side note, if you invented a way to predict
earthquakes, you'd be a billionaire, or a Nobel prize winner, or both,
depending on your desire to help humanity.
I'm not a survivalist by any means, but I have done my share of
camping. Primitive camping, that is, not in an air conditioned,
generator equipped, propane powered house-on-wheels.
I can't fathom what some of these people in NO are doing. They were
told to get out. Flee. Run for your life.
Those that stayed, well, you knew there would be no electricity,
water, or sewer.
I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would have filled every
container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub, pots, pans,
buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on canned
goods, candles, heating sources.
If I hadn't secured a source of fresh water beforehand, I certainly
woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof of a hotel, whining about no
water. Damn, you got all the water you need, just gotta make it
drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to boil it,do
something for Pete's sake. It's not like you're too busy watching TV or
playing video games, or reading your newsgroups. G
Fido, you've been a faithful companion, but as soon as I get this fire
started...
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?

doo wrote:
I lurk here quite a bit, and have been following the threads on Kat
and NO.
What I can't seem to understand is the fact that with a hurricane, you
KNOW it's coming. Not like an earthquake or volcanic eruption or even a
tsunami. You have ample warning. The comparison to the tsunami of
December is apples and oranges. The aftermath is comparable, yes, but
not anything else. On a side note, if you invented a way to predict
earthquakes, you'd be a billionaire, or a Nobel prize winner, or both,
depending on your desire to help humanity.
I'm not a survivalist by any means, but I have done my share of
camping. Primitive camping, that is, not in an air conditioned,
generator equipped, propane powered house-on-wheels.
I can't fathom what some of these people in NO are doing. They were
told to get out. Flee. Run for your life.
Those that stayed, well, you knew there would be no electricity,
water, or sewer.
I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would have filled every
container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub, pots, pans,
buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on canned
goods, candles, heating sources.
If I hadn't secured a source of fresh water beforehand, I certainly
woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof of a hotel, whining about no
water. Damn, you got all the water you need, just gotta make it
drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to boil it,do
something for Pete's sake. It's not like you're too busy watching TV or
playing video games, or reading your newsgroups. G
Fido, you've been a faithful companion, but as soon as I get this fire
started...
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?

We have conditioned certain parts of society to rely on the gov'mt for
daily survival. Social services that supress individual responsibility
is one place to start pointing the finger. And they have fallen for it,
we did it to the black community, the native american community, and
anyone else that would prefer a hand out instead of a hand up.

We did it with our elected officials, and we share in the blame.

Sorry for all who got sucked into the whole process and then the process
failed them.

You are right though, when you ask the question "Whatever happened to
Basic Survival 101?" It is gone, as uncommon now as that classic thought
from the past, "common sense."

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

George

"doo" wrote in message
ups.com...
Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?


That pretty much went away when the government started handing out welfare
to anyone who did not feel like providing for themselves.

Same mentality. I do not feel like working so give me welfare. I do not
feel like surviving on my own, so I will complain and bitch until they send
me food and water.

The other problem is that welfare (and what other I do not feel like
providing for myself funds) checks were long gone. As in a couple of days
after they get the checks, the money is gone. So had the storm hit after
the first of the month, more people might of had enough money to get out, or
stock food.

I do fear that later down the road they will blame the government. In that
the government should of scheduled the storm to arrive the day of, or day
after the welfare checks were issued. Or something like that. Either way
it will not be the individuals fault but the governments.

Than again, a lot of people stuck around just because what is happening now.

Life-guard of the gene poll.
--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

On 4 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, "doo" wrote:

"snippage"

...
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?
Roger your observations, and to answer your question, sadly, yes it
appears at least in NO basic survival instinct has been breed out of
many. And civilized conduct replaced by predatory instinct.

I live in a class 3 earthquake zone and have made extensive
disaster preparations. I hope that I've covered all possibilities.


My sister inlaw who live in NewEngland (liberal politically) shocked
me with the remark that a handgun is now going to be a necessary item
to learn to use. I hope this a wakup call for those not disposed to
preparedness in this era of having to watch your back all the time.

DE

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"DE" wrote in message
...
On 4 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, "doo" wrote:

"snippage"

..
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?
Roger your observations, and to answer your question, sadly, yes it
appears at least in NO basic survival instinct has been breed out of
many. And civilized conduct replaced by predatory instinct.

I live in a class 3 earthquake zone and have made extensive
disaster preparations. I hope that I've covered all possibilities.


My sister inlaw who live in NewEngland (liberal politically) shocked
me with the remark that a handgun is now going to be a necessary item
to learn to use. I hope this a wakup call for those not disposed to
preparedness in this era of having to watch your back all the time.


Hopefully your sister is not in MA. In order to get a permit for a handgun
in MA, you have to say it is for target practice. If you tell them it is
for protection of your home and family, your application will be denied.

Go figure.

--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

That's a great idea. Stock up on food, water, TP, Twinkies, etc. Sit out
the storm and survive. Only problem is, your house is now just a
foundation and exposed basement filled with water and debris. I suppose
you might find the Twinkies, after all, they float....
JR
Dweller in the cellar

doo wrote:

Drivel

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in public
schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make sure THEY
reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable.


"doo" wrote in message
ups.com...
I lurk here quite a bit, and have been following the threads on Kat
and NO.
What I can't seem to understand is the fact that with a hurricane, you
KNOW it's coming. Not like an earthquake or volcanic eruption or even a
tsunami. You have ample warning. The comparison to the tsunami of
December is apples and oranges. The aftermath is comparable, yes, but
not anything else. On a side note, if you invented a way to predict
earthquakes, you'd be a billionaire, or a Nobel prize winner, or both,
depending on your desire to help humanity.
I'm not a survivalist by any means, but I have done my share of
camping. Primitive camping, that is, not in an air conditioned,
generator equipped, propane powered house-on-wheels.
I can't fathom what some of these people in NO are doing. They were
told to get out. Flee. Run for your life.
Those that stayed, well, you knew there would be no electricity,
water, or sewer.
I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would have filled every
container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub, pots, pans,
buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on canned
goods, candles, heating sources.
If I hadn't secured a source of fresh water beforehand, I certainly
woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof of a hotel, whining about no
water. Damn, you got all the water you need, just gotta make it
drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to boil it,do
something for Pete's sake. It's not like you're too busy watching TV or
playing video games, or reading your newsgroups. G
Fido, you've been a faithful companion, but as soon as I get this fire
started...
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in
public schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make sure
THEY reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or
controllable.


In welfare terms it is called "Nike fund". You know the term, were welfare
will give more money to the 15yr old that is pregnant. They spit out babies
as to get more from welfare. More from welfare means they can afford the
$200 pair of Nikes.

If you see a welfare recipient with the Nikes, $1k handbag at the nail
saloon, getting the $200 nail job done, you know she has to have at least 3
babies at home without any diapers, food, etc, before she can get that much
from welfare.

At the top of the welfare chain is the one with 5 babies. Ya know the one.
They show up on daytime talk shows with 10 or 12 possible fathers passing
through, all failing the DNA test.
Leaving the mother with no idea of who could possibly be the father of any
of the children. Actually more like a circus freak show, than any talk
show. Sick people taking advantage of the uneducated and poor.

Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very easily, as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.

Anyone care to guess at the total liquid assets of all the people "stranded"
in NO is? Not including anything looted in the past few days.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

"doo" wrote: (clip) I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would
have filled every container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub,
pots, pans, buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on
canned goods, candles, heating sources. If I hadn't secured a source of
fresh water beforehand, I certainly woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof
of a hotel, whining about no water. Damn, you got all the water you need,
just gotta make it drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to
boil it, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are unreal! Did you look at any of the pictures of the poor people
struggling to survive? Thousands died. And you think you would have been
on the roof of the house with boxes of canned goods, and tubs of potable
water? Or you're thinking of building a fire to boil the water--on the roof
of the house? Come on!

"Chris" wrote in message
...
snip----

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.

Not all of us. Yes, I voted, but not for the majority parties. I'd
have sooner voted for myself than those morons. It's clear to me that
people running for public office have their own good will in mind, certainly
not that of the people.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...
snip----

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.

Not all of us. Yes, I voted, but not for the majority parties. I'd
have sooner voted for myself than those morons. It's clear to me that
people running for public office have their own good will in mind,
certainly
not that of the people.

Harold

Good point Harold.

Problem is the backing of the two parties makes the people really worth
voting for unheard. Running for office = ego trip (at least among the two
parties), if they win it does surely seem for their own good will.

Our founding fathers are surely turning in their graves, seeing the self
serving politicians we have today.

Chris wrote:

Hopefully your sister is not in MA. In order to get a permit for a handgun
in MA, you have to say it is for target practice. If you tell them it is
for protection of your home and family, your application will be denied.

Do you have to specify what targets you intend to "practice" on?
Sad, as it probably won't be long before even target practice isn't
reason enough.

But then, in a survival situation, there's unregulated alternatives for
enterprising individuals:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/447/
(links to a .WMV file)

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:

Hopefully your sister is not in MA. In order to get a permit for a
handgun in MA, you have to say it is for target practice. If you tell
them it is for protection of your home and family, your application will
be denied.

Do you have to specify what targets you intend to "practice" on?
Sad, as it probably won't be long before even target practice isn't reason
enough.

But then, in a survival situation, there's unregulated alternatives for
enterprising individuals:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/447/
(links to a .WMV file)

Jon

Please do not give the liberals any new ideas.

If they did ask I would answer, "Any moving target on my property that does
not belong there".

Rumor is that you have to take a class now to get an FID. Nice welcome back
for our military people.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

"Ignoramus21934" wrote in message
...
I disagree with the assumption that leaving the city was the right
thing to do, given what they knew then. Hint: no one knew or could
guess that the levees would break. That was the catastrophe, not the
hurricane as such. I will appreciate being corrected if I am mistaken,
but that was not foreseeable, notwithstanding some long standing
warnings of researchers that the levee system was not as good as it
should be.

Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.


There was a cat 5 storm bearing down on a city with levies designed to
withstand a cat 3 storm. I am no fortune teller here, but good enough
reason for me to leave.

Than again you bring up a good point. Staying to defend against looters.
In a perfect world this would not be the case. We could leave our home and
save our lives and assume that our goods will be safe from looting. Than
again, not much you can do with your goods when you are a floating dead
corpse.

We have seen that NO is by far a perfect world, so common sense might not
indeed apply.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

Ignoramus21934 wrote in
:

I disagree with the assumption that leaving the city was the right
thing to do, given what they knew then. Hint: no one knew or could
guess that the levees would break. That was the catastrophe, not the
hurricane as such. I will appreciate being corrected if I am mistaken,
but that was not foreseeable, notwithstanding some long standing
warnings of researchers that the levee system was not as good as it
should be.

Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.

Given what they knew and when: There was a catagory 5 hurricane bearing
down on a city which at best had a levee system that would be overwhelmed
by a cat 3. Maybe you've never been in a hurricane, but a cat 5 storm is
the equivelent of having an F3 tornado parked over your house for most of
the day. Very few structures will survive, no stick built house will.

The people who stayed and survived are damn lucky to be alive.
Fortunately for them the hurricane downgraded to a cat 4 and went well
east of New Orleans. The hurricane's track can't be known for sure until
just a couple of hours or so before it hits. The ONLY sensible thing to
do is leave.

Most of the news coverage has been about New Orleans. But they have
showed the area where the storm came ashore. There are no damaged
buildings there. The building are all gone, until you get a couple of
miles inland. The people who stayed to "ride it out" are all gone too.
Their bodies will likely never be recovered, as they were ground to bits
by the debris and washed out to sea. And that was a cat 4 storm when it
made landfall.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the storm had been a direct
hit on New Orleans? The wind would have taken down most every stick built
building along with the roofs of everything else. The levees would have
failed at the height of the storm. There would be no chance for rescue.
You can't use a boat, car or aircraft in 100+ mph winds. There is nothing
in my house worth the risk. Let the looters have it. They'll be dead soon
enough.

Since the hurricane, people have blamed Bush, the federal government,
republicans, deomcrats, poverty and racism. The simple fact of the matter
is that the local government didn't have an effective evacuation plan.
There were no provisions in place to evacuate the elderly, infirm and
those with no transportation.

There is no way to build a city, much less a city in a delta, to
withstand a cat 5 hurricane. Evacuation is the only sensible cost
effective way to deal with it. Unfortunately New Orleans has a long
history of corrupt ineffective goverment on the local level. So there was
no workable plan in place. Had the city been evacuated, the speed of the
response wouldn't be an issue.

For those who say people shouldn't live in flood plains and along the
coast consider this; everyone in this country benefits from the Port of
New Orleans. We need deep water ports and guess what? They are all along
a coast somewhere. Subject to floods, hurricanes and tsunamis. We need
the oil that flows from the Gulf. We use the products from the
refineries. We've all eaten seafood harvested from the area. Should we
expect the people who do all of the hard work in the area to commute 100+
miles to get to their jobs because there might be a hurricane or flood
someday?

Throwing blame and bitching about coulda, woulda, shoulda, is pointless
anyway. Send a check, as much as you can afford, to help these folks out.

As a country we should be thinking about a temporary tax or tax increase
of some sort to pay for all of this, and get the port back up and
running. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start paying for the foolishness in
Iraq as well, instead of passing the bill along to our kids and
grandkids.


--

Dan

Leo Lichtman wrote:
"doo" wrote: (clip) I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would
have filled every container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub,
pots, pans, buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on
canned goods, candles, heating sources. If I hadn't secured a source of
fresh water beforehand, I certainly woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof
of a hotel, whining about no water. Damn, you got all the water you need,
just gotta make it drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to
boil it, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are unreal! Did you look at any of the pictures of the poor people
struggling to survive? Thousands died. And you think you would have been
on the roof of the house with boxes of canned goods, and tubs of potable
water? Or you're thinking of building a fire to boil the water--on the roof
of the house? Come on!

To me, you are unreal. Yes, a lot of people died. Some lost entire
homes.
But if I had given YOU at least 24 hour notice that power was going
out, water would be unavailable and food scarce, could you not find
SOMETHING to put some water in, maybe grab a can or two of soup or
beans, and head for higher ground?
The people I saw on the news whining about water were on unflooded
streets, on the third floor, and nobody thought to secure basic needs.
(My personal opinion is they partied out them storm, then realized too
late the magnitude)
Also, I can't believe that the people on the rooftops in the harder
hit areas found themselves in twenty feet of water in 30 seconds. They
had time to make the rooftop, they should have had a jug of water or
SOMETHING with them. Hell, they had at least 24 HOURS to prepare. Not
30 seconds.
I don't know about you, but if I were to be found dead, I'd rather it
be drowned, naked, clutching a sack with water and food than from
dehydration, clothed, on a rooftop with a coupon for a free Whopper in
my pocket(which I feel would make me look REAL stupid!).

So, hide in the attic for a tornado, and the basement for a flood.

"doo" wrote in message
oups.com...

Leo Lichtman wrote:
"doo" wrote: (clip) I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would
have filled every container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub,
pots, pans, buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on
canned goods, candles, heating sources. If I hadn't secured a source of
fresh water beforehand, I certainly woudn't be on CNN stranded on the
roof
of a hotel, whining about no water. Damn, you got all the water you need,
just gotta make it drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to
boil it, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are unreal! Did you look at any of the pictures of the poor people
struggling to survive? Thousands died. And you think you would have
been
on the roof of the house with boxes of canned goods, and tubs of potable
water? Or you're thinking of building a fire to boil the water--on the
roof
of the house? Come on!

To me, you are unreal. Yes, a lot of people died. Some lost entire
homes.
But if I had given YOU at least 24 hour notice that power was going
out, water would be unavailable and food scarce, could you not find
SOMETHING to put some water in, maybe grab a can or two of soup or
beans, and head for higher ground?
The people I saw on the news whining about water were on unflooded
streets, on the third floor, and nobody thought to secure basic needs.
(My personal opinion is they partied out them storm, then realized too
late the magnitude)
Also, I can't believe that the people on the rooftops in the harder
hit areas found themselves in twenty feet of water in 30 seconds. They
had time to make the rooftop, they should have had a jug of water or
SOMETHING with them. Hell, they had at least 24 HOURS to prepare. Not
30 seconds.
I don't know about you, but if I were to be found dead, I'd rather it
be drowned, naked, clutching a sack with water and food than from
dehydration, clothed, on a rooftop with a coupon for a free Whopper in
my pocket(which I feel would make me look REAL stupid!).

I think it can be summed up in one saying "Lifeguard of the gene pool"

In wake of the recent tsunami that killed thousands, it should be clear that
you cannot stop mother nature. More people die in floods than any other
form of nature disaster. Are these smart people? I would guess a good many
of them are low in the IQ part.

Mankind gave us the technology to provide a clear warning to these people.
The smart ones left. I think once again we are forced to deal with the
stupid ones. Again stupidity is the black eye to this whole mess. Granted
there are exceptions. The city should have a plan for the elderly or
disabled to get out, but this, as reported, failed. The rest of the healthy
people depend on the government to do everything for them (read welfare),
and did not get out. The government did not fail these people, these people
failed themselves. Please do not tell me that they could not get out of the
city ( save for the disabled and handicap). I am sure that if you told most
of these people that there were free $200 Nikes 50 miles outside the city,
they would of been there in droves. Priorities are different for the most
that are stranded.

The SMART ones left. You now see them returning in their cars to the their
unfortunately destroyed homes. They are also starting or planning to
rebuild. These same people you will not see begging for hand outs. Just as
you did not see them taking handouts before the storm. The black eye will
come from people who are already receiving government handouts, and expect
the government to continue giving them handouts after the storm.

Where in the Constitution does it say the government will protect the stupid
from floods and hurricanes?

I just think a lot less death and resulting issues would of been easily
avoided if people had used common sense and left. The smart ones left, the
smart ones are returning and rebuilding, without blaming the government, nor
taking anything from the government.

Other than that I wish the smart ones the best of luck in rebuilding after
the disaster.

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus21934 wrote in
:

I disagree with the assumption that leaving the city was the right
thing to do, given what they knew then. Hint: no one knew or could
guess that the levees would break. That was the catastrophe, not the
hurricane as such. I will appreciate being corrected if I am mistaken,
but that was not foreseeable, notwithstanding some long standing
warnings of researchers that the levee system was not as good as it
should be.

Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.

Given what they knew and when: There was a catagory 5 hurricane bearing
down on a city which at best had a levee system that would be overwhelmed
by a cat 3. Maybe you've never been in a hurricane, but a cat 5 storm is
the equivelent of having an F3 tornado parked over your house for most of
the day. Very few structures will survive, no stick built house will.

The people who stayed and survived are damn lucky to be alive.
Fortunately for them the hurricane downgraded to a cat 4 and went well
east of New Orleans. The hurricane's track can't be known for sure until
just a couple of hours or so before it hits. The ONLY sensible thing to
do is leave.

Most of the news coverage has been about New Orleans. But they have
showed the area where the storm came ashore. There are no damaged
buildings there. The building are all gone, until you get a couple of
miles inland. The people who stayed to "ride it out" are all gone too.
Their bodies will likely never be recovered, as they were ground to bits
by the debris and washed out to sea. And that was a cat 4 storm when it
made landfall.

Can you imagine what would have happened if the storm had been a direct
hit on New Orleans? The wind would have taken down most every stick built
building along with the roofs of everything else. The levees would have
failed at the height of the storm. There would be no chance for rescue.
You can't use a boat, car or aircraft in 100+ mph winds. There is nothing
in my house worth the risk. Let the looters have it. They'll be dead soon
enough.

Since the hurricane, people have blamed Bush, the federal government,
republicans, deomcrats, poverty and racism. The simple fact of the matter
is that the local government didn't have an effective evacuation plan.
There were no provisions in place to evacuate the elderly, infirm and
those with no transportation.

There is no way to build a city, much less a city in a delta, to
withstand a cat 5 hurricane. Evacuation is the only sensible cost
effective way to deal with it. Unfortunately New Orleans has a long
history of corrupt ineffective goverment on the local level. So there was
no workable plan in place. Had the city been evacuated, the speed of the
response wouldn't be an issue.

For those who say people shouldn't live in flood plains and along the
coast consider this; everyone in this country benefits from the Port of
New Orleans. We need deep water ports and guess what? They are all along
a coast somewhere. Subject to floods, hurricanes and tsunamis. We need
the oil that flows from the Gulf. We use the products from the
refineries. We've all eaten seafood harvested from the area. Should we
expect the people who do all of the hard work in the area to commute 100+
miles to get to their jobs because there might be a hurricane or flood
someday?

Throwing blame and bitching about coulda, woulda, shoulda, is pointless
anyway. Send a check, as much as you can afford, to help these folks out.

As a country we should be thinking about a temporary tax or tax increase
of some sort to pay for all of this, and get the port back up and
running. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start paying for the foolishness in
Iraq as well, instead of passing the bill along to our kids and
grandkids.


--

Dan

Dan
That is the best wisdom I have heard yet.
I was thinking last night about all the finger pointing and whining about
who didn't do what. The lefty liberals are this and the right wingers did
that. I think the 2.5% from the far left that want to tax us to death and
the 2.5% from the far right that don't want to pay their fair share of taxes
should get the hell out of our country and start one of their own. In the
mean time we as citizens should stand up and do our part to set this
disaster right.
Steve

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:51:03 GMT, Ignoramus21934
wrote:

I disagree with the assumption that leaving the city was the right
thing to do, given what they knew then. Hint: no one knew or could
guess that the levees would break. That was the catastrophe, not the
hurricane as such. I will appreciate being corrected if I am mistaken,
but that was not foreseeable, notwithstanding some long standing
warnings of researchers that the levee system was not as good as it
should be.

Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.

i

Being from south Texas I find the above inadvisable. I was about 6
yrs. old in San Antonio when Beulah hit and got a good idea of the
destruction on TV with boats in houses. Celia hit a couple of yrs.
later and I remember seeing wave after wave of storms just like the
satellite pictures of the arms of the hurricanes. In '80 I was in the
Rio Grande Valley and watched Allen get closer and closer. My friends
wanted me to stay for a hurricane party where you stock up on booze,
candles, and food and then sit around the house for a week. Not my
idea of fun, so I took a vacation to visit my mom in northern Wis.
When at peoples' houses they'd all ask where I was from with that
funny accent and I would point at their TV and say "You see that big
swirling monster?" I went back about 7-10 days later and there was
nothing but water on both sides and in the middle of the highway as
far as I could see and remember thinking that I should have waited
longer. The road trips were better than a week of canned food, no
shower, and no clean clothes.

I can't imagine staying within levees below sea level and relatively
right next to the surf. Florida isn't much better, what is it 20'
above sea level? If I had to have a house in FL. it would be on poles
with plenty of shaded parking underneath and everything would be
screwed and bolted together.

Call it paranoia or what ever, but hurricanes are not to be played
with. Most of the gulf coast's topography is flat with nothing to slow
them down. You can drive a hundred miles inland and the elevation
gained about the height of a simi. and the water table is a post hole
down. Out here in the desert they frequently have 75mph sand storms
that are wicked enough for me. I've had my hand out the windows of
fast cars and planes at 150mph and have a hard time seeing a house
hold up to it.

While I'm on the subject, can ya'll imagine if there where a couple of
national happenings like riots and such at the same time? Gunners
survivalist philosophy would be sounding more like a great idea.


On 4 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, doo wrote:
I lurk here quite a bit, and have been following the threads on Kat
and NO.
What I can't seem to understand is the fact that with a hurricane, you
KNOW it's coming. Not like an earthquake or volcanic eruption or even a
tsunami. You have ample warning. The comparison to the tsunami of
December is apples and oranges. The aftermath is comparable, yes, but
not anything else. On a side note, if you invented a way to predict
earthquakes, you'd be a billionaire, or a Nobel prize winner, or both,
depending on your desire to help humanity.
I'm not a survivalist by any means, but I have done my share of
camping. Primitive camping, that is, not in an air conditioned,
generator equipped, propane powered house-on-wheels.
I can't fathom what some of these people in NO are doing. They were
told to get out. Flee. Run for your life.
Those that stayed, well, you knew there would be no electricity,
water, or sewer.
I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would have filled every
container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub, pots, pans,
buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on canned
goods, candles, heating sources.
If I hadn't secured a source of fresh water beforehand, I certainly
woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof of a hotel, whining about no
water. Damn, you got all the water you need, just gotta make it
drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to boil it,do
something for Pete's sake. It's not like you're too busy watching TV or
playing video games, or reading your newsgroups. G
Fido, you've been a faithful companion, but as soon as I get this fire
started...
I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?

"Sunworshipper" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:51:03 GMT, Ignoramus21934
wrote:

Florida isn't much better, what is it 20'
above sea level? If I had to have a house in FL. it would be on poles
with plenty of shaded parking underneath and everything would be
screwed and bolted together.

No doubt, Florida is hurricane country; all of Florida. That said, the
main damage from Katrina was not from the storm itself, but from the storm tide.
The worst possible storm tide on the Atlantic side of Florida is a fraction of
what you can see in the Gulf. Besides, 20' over sea level beats the stink out
of 20' BELOW sea level.

Vaughn

"Ignoramus21934" wrote in message
...
Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.

Ig, usually you make a lot more sense than this.

In the case of Katrina, the problem was not only wind, but a storm tide.
If you hear that there is a 20 foot storm tide possibly on the way and you do
not live 20 feet over sea level, your decision to depart should be a no-brainer
regardless of the wind speed.

Here in Florida, 90+% of the homes are built to the strict S. Florida
building code which (I believe) is based on surviving a 120 MPH wind, which is
only a mid-sized Category 3 hurricane. With a Category 4 hurricane you can
expect "...extensive curtainwall failures with some complete roof structure
failures on small residences". I believe a rough rule of thumb is that damage
doubles for each additional 10 MPH wind speed. A class five hurricane has a
minimum wind speed of 155 MPH! You do the math.

One of the biggest things you can do to beef up your home is to make sure
the openings (windows and doors) are not breached. To this end, I just had
$16,000 of high impact windows installed on my home. Those are only tested to
140 MPH. I do not intend to stay here to witness a Cat 5 hurricane. I will be
safely out of the area, watching it happen on TV.

Vaughn

"Chris" wrote in message
news

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...
snip----

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very
easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.

Not all of us. Yes, I voted, but not for the majority parties. I'd
have sooner voted for myself than those morons. It's clear to me that
people running for public office have their own good will in mind,
certainly
not that of the people.

Harold

Good point Harold.

Problem is the backing of the two parties makes the people really worth
voting for unheard. Running for office = ego trip (at least among the two
parties), if they win it does surely seem for their own good will.

Our founding fathers are surely turning in their graves, seeing the self
serving politicians we have today.


You dare call them politicians?

What a bunch of *******s we have to serve us these days.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
You dare call them politicians?

What a bunch of *******s we have to serve us these days.

Harold


Do you remember the movie: "Colossus: The Forbin Project"? It would be nice
to think that's our future.

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 01:21:07 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


"Ignoramus21934" wrote in message
...
Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would
rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact.
And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and
looters etc.

Ig, usually you make a lot more sense than this.

In the case of Katrina, the problem was not only wind, but a storm tide.
If you hear that there is a 20 foot storm tide possibly on the way and you do
not live 20 feet over sea level, your decision to depart should be a no-brainer
regardless of the wind speed.

Here in Florida, 90+% of the homes are built to the strict S. Florida
building code which (I believe) is based on surviving a 120 MPH wind, which is
only a mid-sized Category 3 hurricane. With a Category 4 hurricane you can
expect "...extensive curtainwall failures with some complete roof structure
failures on small residences". I believe a rough rule of thumb is that damage
doubles for each additional 10 MPH wind speed. A class five hurricane has a
minimum wind speed of 155 MPH! You do the math.

One of the biggest things you can do to beef up your home is to make sure
the openings (windows and doors) are not breached. To this end, I just had
$16,000 of high impact windows installed on my home. Those are only tested to
140 MPH. I do not intend to stay here to witness a Cat 5 hurricane. I will be
safely out of the area, watching it happen on TV.

Vaughn


He's from Russia and Ill. that's mainly why I said anything at all.
For us that get it we take that long awaited vacation.

I was just thinking about how I vacated that one storm. I waited
until I was for sure it was gonna hit right where I was and made it
non stop solo driving to watch it hit 2,000 miles away. Wonder if the
bad 55 limit will rear its ugly head again?

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, doo wrote:


I guess the true questions for this post is have we as society become
so soft that we can't fend for ourselves anymore? Have we become too
reliant on people providing for us? Whatever happened to Basic Survival
101?

We pay our taxes with the idea that the government is working for us.
One of the things that the government is supposed to do is rescue us
in times of disaster. That's the whole point of DHS; attempting to
prevent disasters and providing relief when they do occur.

Seems like a reasonable thing for people to complain about when
the government sits on its hands during a disaster.

Supposedly the people left behind in NO were unable to leave for
various reasons. Why wasn't transportation and shelter provided for
these people in order to get them out of the area before the storm
hit? It would've saved a lot of lives. Isn't that what we're paying for?
Instead the local authorities went from house to house before the storm,
making people sign a form stating that they were not leaving, and why.
Why not get those who could not leave out? Its not like they didn't
know about them.

And cripes, why didn't they at least evacuate the hospitals and nursing
homes before the storm??

George wrote:
We have conditioned certain parts of society to rely on the gov'mt for
daily survival. Social services that supress individual responsibility
is one place to start pointing the finger. And they have fallen for it,
we did it to the black community, the native american community, and
anyone else that would prefer a hand out instead of a hand up.

We did it with our elected officials, and we share in the blame.

Sorry for all who got sucked into the whole process and then the process
failed them.

You are right though, when you ask the question "Whatever happened to
Basic Survival 101?" It is gone, as uncommon now as that classic thought
from the past, "common sense."

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

George

A.Men POGO. :-)

...lew...

"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, doo wrote:

We pay our taxes with the idea that the government is working for us.
One of the things that the government is supposed to do is rescue us
in times of disaster.

OK, but two thoughts;
1) Yes, but we should not not expect out rescuer to be sent by the federal
government. This why we have local and state governments, they should be the
first responders and should be the #1 responsible parties for the event. The
Federal function should be supportive, not preemptive.
2) Just because we have governments does not mean that we should leave
everything in their hands. If possible, we should conduct our affairs in such a
way that we do not NEED rescue.

Supposedly the people left behind in NO were unable to leave for
various reasons.

Unable or UNWILLING.

Why wasn't transportation and shelter provided for
these people in order to get them out of the area before the storm
hit? It would've saved a lot of lives.

I agree, and was wondering about this while watching those poor people
stand in line for hours on end waiting to enter the Superdome before the storm.
Why not just load them into school buses and get them out of town? Had they
done that, they would have had many more living people remaining after the
disaster...and more schoolbuses!


And cripes, why didn't they at least evacuate the hospitals and nursing
homes before the storm??

Good point.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:

"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, doo wrote:

We pay our taxes with the idea that the government is working for us.
One of the things that the government is supposed to do is rescue us
in times of disaster.

OK, but two thoughts;
1) Yes, but we should not not expect out rescuer to be sent by the federal
government. This why we have local and state governments, they should be the
first responders and should be the #1 responsible parties for the event. The
Federal function should be supportive, not preemptive.
2) Just because we have governments does not mean that we should leave
everything in their hands. If possible, we should conduct our affairs in such a
way that we do not NEED rescue.

The governor would not let the feds take charge. She said she was worried about
political considerations. Just heard that on CNN.



Supposedly the people left behind in NO were unable to leave for
various reasons.

Unable or UNWILLING.

Why wasn't transportation and shelter provided for
these people in order to get them out of the area before the storm
hit? It would've saved a lot of lives.

I agree, and was wondering about this while watching those poor people
stand in line for hours on end waiting to enter the Superdome before the storm.
Why not just load them into school buses and get them out of town? Had they
done that, they would have had many more living people remaining after the
disaster...and more schoolbuses!


And cripes, why didn't they at least evacuate the hospitals and nursing
homes before the storm??

Good point.

Vaughn

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"Artemia Salina" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:00:41 -0700, doo wrote:

We pay our taxes with the idea that the government is working for us.
One of the things that the government is supposed to do is rescue us
in times of disaster.

OK, but two thoughts;
1) Yes, but we should not not expect out rescuer to be sent by the
federal government. This why we have local and state governments, they
should be the first responders and should be the #1 responsible parties
for the event. The Federal function should be supportive, not preemptive.
2) Just because we have governments does not mean that we should leave
everything in their hands. If possible, we should conduct our affairs in
such a way that we do not NEED rescue.

Supposedly the people left behind in NO were unable to leave for
various reasons.

Unable or UNWILLING.

Why wasn't transportation and shelter provided for
these people in order to get them out of the area before the storm
hit? It would've saved a lot of lives.

I agree, and was wondering about this while watching those poor people
stand in line for hours on end waiting to enter the Superdome before the
storm. Why not just load them into school buses and get them out of town?
Had they done that, they would have had many more living people remaining
after the disaster...and more schoolbuses!


And cripes, why didn't they at least evacuate the hospitals and nursing
homes before the storm??

Good point.

Vaughn

I think it should be easy to assess that a lot of idiots are ruining it for
the bunch (when it this never the case). It is clear that the local
government failed. Now we are seeing the local government's failure being
blamed on the federal government.

If you are that ignorant to rely on the government for your general well
being, than good riddance to you. Unfortunately the smarter ones will all
be paying for the ignorance of others.

I saw a news clip on the telly last night. I full grown man came up to a
reporter asking her to go help find his relatives.

Now this man seemed fit and more than physically able to do just about
anything humanly possible. What in the world would any good do asking a
110lb women, who probably has never set foot in NOs, be able to do, that
this man could not do on his own?

We have breed a part of our society to rely 100% on others for their well
being.

During this same run on the telly, there was another shot of a group of
people sitting around screaming at the camera "We need help" . Seems like
these people were already rescued and were in safe spot. Um.. what kind of
help do they need? Most likely the same help that they expected before the
crisis. That is free money, food, shelter , etc.

Most of us are guilty for allowing this dependence on the government for
basic substance of life. As it is being proven in NO, to many people depend
on the government, for what most of us work for.

We can blame the government, sure. But...not for acting so quickly, but for
breeding this society that lacks basic living skills (or survival skills as
the OP). These same people will not walk 1 mile for free food, they expect
it to be brought to them. How can we expect the same people that cannot
feed themselves, ride out a storm.

The true tragedy is that NO is getting all the press. Guess that is where
the "news" is at. Problem is, from what little I have seen. NO is a
nothing compared to what the areas hardest hit are dealing with.

Problem is the areas hit hardest, from what little coverage I have seen,
are coming back to their homes completely gone. Their comments; "Guess we
will have to rebuild, what else can we do". This unfortunately is not news
worthy. Complaining, ignorant, helpless fools, that society is better off
without, is what is news worthy.

After watching some of this craziness on TV, I have come to one conclusion.
The government is not handing out free dental care.

--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

Jon Anderson wrote:

Do you have to specify what targets you intend to "practice" on?
Sad, as it probably won't be long before even target practice isn't
reason enough.

You'll likely have to get an EPA permit and have a 'lead remidiation'
plan.

Wes

--
The Constitution wasn't perfect but it sure beats
what we have now.

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in
public schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make
sure
THEY reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or
controllable.


In welfare terms it is called "Nike fund". You know the term, were
welfare
will give more money to the 15yr old that is pregnant. They spit out
babies
as to get more from welfare. More from welfare means they can afford the
$200 pair of Nikes.

If you see a welfare recipient with the Nikes, $1k handbag at the nail
saloon, getting the $200 nail job done, you know she has to have at least
3
babies at home without any diapers, food, etc, before she can get that
much
from welfare.

At the top of the welfare chain is the one with 5 babies. Ya know the
one.
They show up on daytime talk shows with 10 or 12 possible fathers passing
through, all failing the DNA test.
Leaving the mother with no idea of who could possibly be the father of any
of the children. Actually more like a circus freak show, than any talk
show. Sick people taking advantage of the uneducated and poor.

Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.


Didn't welfare start in 1960? If so, I was 7 at the time.

"Richard W." wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in
public schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make
sure
THEY reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or
controllable.


In welfare terms it is called "Nike fund". You know the term, were
welfare
will give more money to the 15yr old that is pregnant. They spit out
babies
as to get more from welfare. More from welfare means they can afford the
$200 pair of Nikes.

If you see a welfare recipient with the Nikes, $1k handbag at the nail
saloon, getting the $200 nail job done, you know she has to have at least
3
babies at home without any diapers, food, etc, before she can get that
much
from welfare.

At the top of the welfare chain is the one with 5 babies. Ya know the
one.
They show up on daytime talk shows with 10 or 12 possible fathers passing
through, all failing the DNA test.
Leaving the mother with no idea of who could possibly be the father of
any
of the children. Actually more like a circus freak show, than any talk
show. Sick people taking advantage of the uneducated and poor.

Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.


Didn't welfare start in 1960? If so, I was 7 at the time.



1933 - long before you were born.

In article ,
"Vaughn" wrote:

[snip]
Here in Florida, 90+% of the homes are built to the strict S. Florida
building code which (I believe) is based on surviving a 120 MPH wind, which is
only a mid-sized Category 3 hurricane. With a Category 4 hurricane you can
expect "...extensive curtainwall failures with some complete roof structure
failures on small residences". I believe a rough rule of thumb is that
damage
doubles for each additional 10 MPH wind speed. A class five hurricane has a
minimum wind speed of 155 MPH! You do the math.

Aerodynamic forces (lift and drag) vary as the square of wind speed, so
going from 120 mph to 150 mph raises the forces by a factor of
(150/120)^2= 1.56 to one.

Ref: http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/4forces.html

Joe Gwinn

According to 60 Minutes last night the levees DID NOT break. The
retaining wall on the 17th st canal was breached and that was it. Still
people who live in low lying areas in a rainy, storm prone parts of the
world should expect floods, death and destruction periodically.
I wanna know who is paying for all these airlifts. I had a car accident
and was life flighted about 35 miles and it cost me 10,000 bucks for a
chopper ride I don't even remember. Is each of these refugees gonna get
a bill for $20,000 for their exit to higher ground? I doubt it.
That city was due for a rebuild. Bulldoze all the rubble, Level it off
with silt from the river and try again.

I am always surprised by people who act saddened by the deaths of people
they didn't even know. Honestly, you can't really care about some schlub
who probably never contributed anything meaningful to society. Being
poor ain't a crime but it sure can make life suck for you and the people
you are drawing assistance from. I think that some of those who have to
go thru this displacement will work on their birth control skills a
little harder. The problem isn't storms or famine or maniacs it is
Overpopulation and the need for the less skilled to hunker down in
crappy regions. Example: Africa. Why do people in these perpetually poor
countries reproduce like there was no tomorrow. One needn't have high
education to be able to simply look around themselves and think that
maybe bringing another human into this cesspool isn't such a good idea
right now.
Same in the poor South in this case. Simply too many people for that
environment.

"daniel peterman" wrote in message
...
According to 60 Minutes last night the levees DID NOT break. The
retaining wall on the 17th st canal was breached and that was it. Still
people who live in low lying areas in a rainy, storm prone parts of the
world should expect floods, death and destruction periodically.
I wanna know who is paying for all these airlifts. I had a car accident
and was life flighted about 35 miles and it cost me 10,000 bucks for a
chopper ride I don't even remember. Is each of these refugees gonna get
a bill for $20,000 for their exit to higher ground? I doubt it.
That city was due for a rebuild. Bulldoze all the rubble, Level it off
with silt from the river and try again.


Problem is you were not on welfare. For had you been the good people of the
US would of fitted the bill.

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Vaughn" wrote:

[snip]
Here in Florida, 90+% of the homes are built to the strict S. Florida
building code which (I believe) is based on surviving a 120 MPH wind, which
is
only a mid-sized Category 3 hurricane. With a Category 4 hurricane you can
expect "...extensive curtainwall failures with some complete roof structure
failures on small residences". I believe a rough rule of thumb is that
damage
doubles for each additional 10 MPH wind speed. A class five hurricane has a
minimum wind speed of 155 MPH! You do the math.

Aerodynamic forces (lift and drag) vary as the square of wind speed, so
going from 120 mph to 150 mph raises the forces by a factor of
(150/120)^2= 1.56 to one.

Thanks, but I did not say that the force doubles for each 10 mph, I said
that damage (measured I suppose in $) doubles. I have heard this repeated by
meda weather people numerous times, and cannot offer a specific reference. I
can, however, mention two factors at work he

1) At a certain speed the wind starts picking up debris and flinging it against
structures. Lower than that speed and it does not generally happen. This is
why the South Florida building code now requires doors and windows to be missile
resistant (the famous 2 by 4 cannon).

2) Once damage to a structure starts, it tends to multiply quickly. One
breached window can result in the eventual loss of the structure.

Vaughn

Ref: http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/4forces.html

Joe Gwinn

In article ,
"Vaughn" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Aerodynamic forces (lift and drag) vary as the square of wind speed, so
going from 120 mph to 150 mph raises the forces by a factor of
(150/120)^2= 1.56 to one.

Thanks, but I did not say that the force doubles for each 10 mph, I said
that damage (measured I suppose in $) doubles.

Fair enough. Damage is probably measured in money.


I have heard this repeated by
meda weather people numerous times, and cannot offer a specific reference. I
can, however, mention two factors at work he

1) At a certain speed the wind starts picking up debris and flinging it against
structures. Lower than that speed and it does not generally happen. This is
why the South Florida building code now requires doors and windows to be
missile resistant (the famous 2 by 4 cannon).

2) Once damage to a structure starts, it tends to multiply quickly. One
breached window can result in the eventual loss of the structure.

I would suspect that the weather people got it from the insurance people
then. But I don't know that I believe it, as the propensity to fly will
also vary with the square of wind speed. If one assumes that flying
objects travel at wind speed (a good assumption for random objects if
they are not too dense, and they cannot go faster), the kinetic energy
of the flying objects also varies as the square of the speed, so
doubling every 10 mph still doesn't seem right.

In mathematical terms, doubling every X mph describes an exponential
law, not a polynomial law, but aerodynamic forces and kinetic energy are
quadratic.

Something else must be going on.

Joe Gwinn

"RAM^3" wrote in message
...
"Richard W." wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in
public schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make
sure
THEY reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or
controllable.


In welfare terms it is called "Nike fund". You know the term, were
welfare
will give more money to the 15yr old that is pregnant. They spit out
babies
as to get more from welfare. More from welfare means they can afford
the
$200 pair of Nikes.

If you see a welfare recipient with the Nikes, $1k handbag at the nail
saloon, getting the $200 nail job done, you know she has to have at
least
3
babies at home without any diapers, food, etc, before she can get that
much
from welfare.

At the top of the welfare chain is the one with 5 babies. Ya know the
one.
They show up on daytime talk shows with 10 or 12 possible fathers
passing
through, all failing the DNA test.
Leaving the mother with no idea of who could possibly be the father of
any
of the children. Actually more like a circus freak show, than any talk
show. Sick people taking advantage of the uneducated and poor.

Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable

Unfortunately the smarter people are gullible and controlled very
easily,
as
we elected the people who put this "free ride" system in place.


Didn't welfare start in 1960? If so, I was 7 at the time.



1933 - long before you were born.



I thought 1933 was Social Security.

Didn't welfare start in 1960? If so, I was 7 at the time.



1933 - long before you were born.



I thought 1933 was Social Security.

Actually, Aid to Dependent Chidren(welfare)started in 1935.



http://encyclopedias.families.com/ai...afdc-48-49-ecc

http://www.enotes.com/welfare-article/

And some food for thought
http://www.andrewbernstein.net/artic...lfarestate.htm