"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations, without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high voltage signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack where the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck crossing to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it. Installed the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours, went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up, discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home. Within six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables in conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't designed for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation. Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it to a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that was secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL! Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching (if not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

Andy suggests:

One caveat here..... the UF cable normally specified for underground
burial is supposed to
be BURIED by itself, not BURIED in conduit.

I have been told that the CODE does not permit UF to be buried in the
smaller diameters
of PVC conduit. I haven't checked it, but it sort of makes since....

HOWEVER, I ALWAYS bury my UF in PVC conduit, usually half inch,
whether code
compliant or not for one basic reason.... :

When I go to dig it up , or find it, or dig another trench over it
later, my shovel will
hit the PVC pipe first, and NOT nick the UF before I can stop
myselft........

Only cost about another 10 cents a foot, here, but makes me feel a
lot safer about
digging around a buried cable.......

I don't put joints in, just slip the pvc over the cable. This way
I know for sure I
am not dealing with a water line......
Andy

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed electrician
for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had reinforced
with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in time lose
some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations, without those
junctions...


So according to the above does that mean that all pvc underground
installations will eventually fail .I.E. water pipes sprinklers etc.......?
mjh

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit.
Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground
junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A
protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally
full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people
were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it, or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant, say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though a
person are the primary issues... When you are underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
...its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott








So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground
cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to
the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed
electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons).
Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I
have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had
reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in
time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable
layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep
plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high voltage
signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack where
the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck crossing
to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it. Installed
the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours,
went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up,
discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be
pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home. Within
six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables in
conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't designed
for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation.
Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it to
a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that was
secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL!
Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough
brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching (if
not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you
wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

"mike hide" wrote in message
...

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the
conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above
ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench.
A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not
normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here
people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit
thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying
underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in
to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a
licensed electrician
for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance
reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then.
I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I
had reinforced
with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does
in time lose
some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the
cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


So according to the above does that mean that all pvc
underground
installations will eventually fail .I.E. water pipes
sprinklers etc.......?
mjh

All such installations will not fail...but some will fail..
depending on the circumstances. Even copper and galv steel
pipe fails after a time. When I put a job in, I put it in
with the failure mode in mind.

For instance I wouldnt run pvc water lines in a
basement..where physical damage could flood the basement...
but I might use a more durable cross linked plastic in the
basement. Or copper which can fail but its failure mode is
pin hole leaks not breaking in half. ..same considerations
with electrical. We use PVC underground.. it doesnt
corrode. But its not nearly as strong against getting hit by
a shovel as ridgid conduit.. rigid metal conduit however can
rust through... in a salt water infiltrated area it wont last
more than a few years.... in other areas metal would be your
best choice.. none of this is fully coverable in the NEC
code.

The code states though that one must use his head. In some
cases, industrial sites for instance, I run electrical in
grossly oversized schedule 40 galvanized steel water pipe
under areas where later trenching is likely..with a concrete
bulk head at each end..so that a back hoe can hit it without
tearing it up. Cost? Not much... 40' of 3" pipe and few
sacks of dry mix is under a few hundred dollars installed.

If its 240 volts in light gage wire the risks are lower than
say 480 volts direct from a large transformer in 000 wire...
that can easily be fatal if hit underground... so the heavy
480 goes in a lot differently than light amperage 240 vac say
#6 or lighter wire... distance from the utility service is
also an issue. the closer you are to the meter (and the heavy
utility feeders, and the heavier the utility transformers
(they are being paralleled lately to serve larger loads) the
greater the 'bolted' short amperage is... this is explosive
the closer you get to the heavy feeders....

..... at a distance from the heavy feeders on ligher wire,
there is not enough current carrying capacity in the wire to
create an explosion when shorted. (Google search term on
that range of issues would be 'arc flash, explosion'... this
can easily exceed a few sticks of dynamite... hard to believe
aint it?).

These arc flash issues are becoming more relevant now than
previously due to the utility company's need to parallel
service drop transformers to service a load... what happens is
that the combined transformer circuit breaker is now *grossly
oversized...so a dead short doesn't trip them in milliseconds
as before, but allows hundreds of thousands of amps to flow to
the short for half a second or a second or longer before
tripping increasing the danger and magnitude of the explosion
exponentially.

New regulations are in the works to code the floor areas in
industrial and large commercial buildings for instance...
around utility service main panels and transformers .... so
that only licensed electricians are permitted...with warning
lables applied detailing the nature of the transformer circuit
breakers and 'bolted short' time to trip ratings.



Phil Scott

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
. ..

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit.
Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground
junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A
protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally
full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people
were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it, or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant, say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though a
person are the primary issues... When you are underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
..its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott


How about this scenario, (its an actual situation that I have). Water well
driller and home builder needed electricity supply. The anticipated use
time exceeded six months prior to the home being finished. The home
building did not start until October, the well was drilled in March. So, I
had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.

The house is nearing completion, and the house contractor is strongly
suggesting I have the meter moved to the house, and I have the lines run
from the transformer pole to the house. The house has an external main
panel connection to receive power from the meter. This would leave a pole
with a main panel sitting on my property with nothing for it to do.

What I would like to do is tie in to the main bus bar on the main panel
(240V 200 amp) on the current power pole, run the cable (wire size?)
underground to the main panel on the house. The house has a current max use
of 135 amps if all is going at once with all installed appliances, electric
water heater, electric heat/AC. Yes, its quite a small sq. footage home.
The house is approximately 50 feet away from the current power pole.

And, a detached garage was built. Its wired and ready to go. Its wired
strictly for one phase power. But, will run both phases to it for future
possibilities. It has a on/off input switch externally mounted which feeds
a small panel. This panel has three 20 amp circuit breaker feeding internal
lights, external lights, internal 115 outlets, and two external 115 outlets.
The garage is about 200 feet from the current power pole, and about 100 feet
from the house. This, of course, needs to be underground cable fed (wire
size?).

Greg wrote:
You can keep the THHN/THWN single stranded, it is only the NM (AKA Romex) that
has to go.

BTW it is not necessarily a leak that causes underground raceways to collect
water. It is usually condensation. They breathe as temperatures rise and fall.
Moisture condenses over time.

Conduits can be kept dry by charging them with low pressure dry nitrogen
or air but for most purposes it is not worth the effort. You will find
that nearly all Thermoplastic insulated, High High temperature rated
[90C], Nylon sheathed, (THHN) wire is also listed as THWN with the W
meaning WET locations. Just run the THWN or other wet location rated
wire in the conduit. The advantages of conduit are its greater
resistance to physical damage, it's shallower depth of bury, and the
ability to replace or add conductors without excavating.

As to your junction boxes you can replace them with ground boxes that
are made of high density plastic. Such boxes are available at
electrical supply houses and the code permits them to be covered by
readily removable stuff such as aggregate, gravel, and so forth.

[314.29 Boxes and Conduit Bodies to Be Accessible.
Boxes and conduit bodies shall be installed so that the wiring contained
in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the
building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks,
paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the
finished grade.
Exception: Listed boxes shall be permitted where covered by gravel,
light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil if their location is
effectively identified and accessible for excavation.] Copyright 2002
the National Fire Protection Association.

Note that the box has to be listed for burial.
--
Tom H

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

From: Tekkie


Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

Let's replace 2-phase with "2-leg" and leave it at that.

Another poster claims the meter must be relocated onto the home as per NEC.

In reality, the NEC and the AHJ's power to enforce it tapers off into a grey
area from the service entrance panel to the metering equipment, and on up to
the weather head or in the case of underground service, any wiring or equipment
prior to the service entrance panel.

I have seen temporary service "meter-mains," specifically, a 200 amp
weatherproof panel with a meter base built right in, turn into a home's main
disconnect.

These panels are popular on boat docks where space is limited. A main 200a
breaker is covered by a weather tight door, and the panel has 20 1" spaces for
20 full size breakers, and 4-8 of them will accept "twin" style tandem
breakers.

It is entirely up to your utility if they'll accept the remote metering site.

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the transformer
pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not insulated. 2 wires are insulated.
These wires go to the meter on the power pole. Explain 3 phase power entry
point when there are only 2 power wires... I don't need a search engine to
determine the number of phases provided by the power company at this
location. A common neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

Yes its a ganged double pole breaker. But, those with a knowledgable
response would assume that as well. And don't need a search engine to
figure that out.

Oh man, you talk about "two phase" electricity? They are going to beat you
to death over this one, like they have been doing for years. And rightfully
so. You lack the "very" basic understanding to even be discussing electrical
service.

JTMcC.


"Lil' Dave" wrote in message
link.net...
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside
a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You
might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts
to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the transformer
pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not insulated. 2 wires are
insulated.
These wires go to the meter on the power pole. Explain 3 phase power
entry
point when there are only 2 power wires... I don't need a search engine
to
determine the number of phases provided by the power company at this
location. A common neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

Yes its a ganged double pole breaker. But, those with a knowledgable
response would assume that as well. And don't need a search engine to
figure that out.

JTMcC posted for all of us....

Oh man, you talk about "two phase" electricity? They are going to beat you
to death over this one, like they have been doing for years. And rightfully
so. You lack the "very" basic understanding to even be discussing electrical
service.

JTMcC.

When he doesn't like the answer he gets ****y so you are probably his next
victim.

Tekkie


"Lil' Dave" wrote in message
link.net...
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside
a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You
might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts
to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the transformer
pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not insulated. 2 wires are
insulated.
These wires go to the meter on the power pole. Explain 3 phase power
entry
point when there are only 2 power wires... I don't need a search engine
to
determine the number of phases provided by the power company at this
location. A common neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

Yes its a ganged double pole breaker. But, those with a knowledgable
response would assume that as well. And don't need a search engine to
figure that out.

Lil' Dave wrote:
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

....

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the
transformer pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not
insulated. 2
wires are insulated. These wires go to the meter on the power
pole.
Explain 3 phase power entry point when there are only 2 power
wires... I don't need a search engine to determine the number
of
phases provided by the power company at this location. A
common
neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.
....

Everybody's wrong: Normal household power is called "split
phase", where there will be 3 wires, two hot, and one neutral.
Evan many electricians will call it 2-phase, but it's not because
of the angular difference in split phase which is 180 degrees.
Three phase is more precisely used in power distribution grids,
factories and other high voltage situation, now low voltage as in
residential power. 120/240 is considered "low" voltage in this
arena.
Try looking up "split phase" +power" . When reading, one
must be careful WHAT he is reading about, when you get into 1, 2,
3, etc. phase situations and star and delta methodologies.

Quote:
Split phase
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Split phase is a mains electrical supply system mainly used in
America (where it is usually and incorrectly referred to as two
phase). It is used occasionally in the UK in distribution
situations where only two 11 kilovolt phases are available, but
it is rarely taken into buildings.

A transformer providing split phase has a single phase input, and
the output is centre-tapped with the neutral on the centre tap.

This means that there are two phase conductors both equidistant
from the neutral. Therefore (provided the balance is good),
appliances can be directly supplied with the normal voltage with
some of the advantages of higher voltages, such as smaller cables
and/or lower losses. It also means that appliances can be
supplied that need double the normal voltage, so it is WIDELY
USED for high power or European equipment in the USA.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A split phase motor is a type of induction motor designed for use
on single-phase electric power, characterized by low cost, low
starting torque, and high starting current. Such motors are
chiefly used in blower applications.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:21:18 -0500, "Pop" wrote:

Lil' Dave wrote:
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

...

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the
transformer pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not
insulated. 2
wires are insulated. These wires go to the meter on the power
pole.
Explain 3 phase power entry point when there are only 2 power
wires... I don't need a search engine to determine the number
of
phases provided by the power company at this location. A
common
neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.
...

Everybody's wrong: Normal household power is called "split
phase", where there will be 3 wires, two hot, and one neutral.
Evan many electricians will call it 2-phase, but it's not because
of the angular difference in split phase which is 180 degrees.
Three phase is more precisely used in power distribution grids,
factories and other high voltage situation, now low voltage as in
residential power. 120/240 is considered "low" voltage in this
arena.
Try looking up "split phase" +power" . When reading, one
must be careful WHAT he is reading about, when you get into 1, 2,
3, etc. phase situations and star and delta methodologies.

Quote:
Split phase
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Split phase is a mains electrical supply system mainly used in
America (where it is usually and incorrectly referred to as two
phase). It is used occasionally in the UK in distribution
situations where only two 11 kilovolt phases are available, but
it is rarely taken into buildings.

A transformer providing split phase has a single phase input, and
the output is centre-tapped with the neutral on the centre tap.

This means that there are two phase conductors both equidistant
from the neutral. Therefore (provided the balance is good),
appliances can be directly supplied with the normal voltage with
some of the advantages of higher voltages, such as smaller cables
and/or lower losses. It also means that appliances can be
supplied that need double the normal voltage, so it is WIDELY
USED for high power or European equipment in the USA.



Thank you for explaining it, I usually get messed up since my
background is from the 3-phase industrial shop.

But to be an antagnoist, since the phases are truely opposite of each
other(180 degrees), then it can be referred as two-phases, since they
aren't in phase with eachother.

But to limit confusion between what I said, and tapping two phases off
a three phase system(which I've seen to do lighting in areas and not
have them eliminate strobe effect on rotational equipment), it might
be better to referer the how supply as single phase, but split.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A split phase motor is a type of induction motor designed for use
on single-phase electric power, characterized by low cost, low
starting torque, and high starting current. Such motors are
chiefly used in blower applications.


I wonder if I confused myself.

later,

tom @ www.BookmarkAdmin.com

But to be an antagnoist, since the phases are truely opposite of each
other(180 degrees), then it can be referred as two-phases, since they
aren't in phase with eachother.



It is two ends of a single phase, center grounded. Calling it anything else is
simply unnecessary confusion. It all comes from a single secondary winding of
one transformer.

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more common,
in the early days of electrification.You can convert 3 phase to 2 phase with
what I believe is called a Scott-T transformer?

JTMcC, certainly no electrical expert, but I have relatives that are.




If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more
common,
in the early days of electrification.

There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond, Hunting Park and
Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might be some left in Atlantic
City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old machine. It's cool.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days.
I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more
common,
in the early days of electrification.

There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond, Hunting Park and
Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might be some left in Atlantic
City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old machine. It's cool.

And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

JTMcC.

JTMcC wrote:

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
.net...

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....


had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V

GCFI

outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.



There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days.
I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more

common,

in the early days of electrification.


There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond, Hunting Park and
Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might be some left in Atlantic
City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old machine. It's cool.


And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

Yes, and going back to the OP, even thought it isn't common usage, the
two 110V legs off a center tapped transformer really do constitute a
two-phase system. If these two legs weren't 180 out of phase, you'd not
be able to get both 110 and 220.

However, having said that, you will get funny looks if you talk about
having two-phase power in your house, even though is essentially what
you have.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
JTMcC wrote:

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
l.net...

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....


had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V

GCFI

outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.



There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days.
I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more

common,

in the early days of electrification.


There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond, Hunting Park and
Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might be some left in
Atlantic
City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old machine. It's cool.


And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

Yes, and going back to the OP, even thought it isn't common usage, the two
110V legs off a center tapped transformer really do constitute a two-phase
system. If these two legs weren't 180 out of phase, you'd not be able to
get both 110 and 220.

However, having said that, you will get funny looks if you talk about
having two-phase power in your house, even though is essentially what you
have.


Matt


There is a ton if information available on the topic. Two phase was common
in the old days.
Powerhouses generate 3 phase power, 1 phase goes down your street to a
transformer that's center tapped, giving you 120 and 240v. The two 120
circuits are 180 degree apart but the circuit isn't out of phase with
itself. Real 2 phase is 90 degree out of phase and usually used 4 wires.
Boring stuff, to me.

JTMcC.

There is a ton if information available on the topic. Two phase was common
in the old days.
Powerhouses generate 3 phase power, 1 phase goes down your street to a
transformer that's center tapped, giving you 120 and 240v. The two 120
circuits are 180 degree apart but the circuit isn't out of phase with
itself. Real 2 phase is 90 degree out of phase and usually used 4 wires.
Boring stuff, to me.

Then why do you write about it?

Yes, the generally accepted term for the power delivered to your house
from a center tapped transformer is split-phase. Yes, what is commonly
called two-phase power is 90 degrees between phases rather than 180, but
my point is that this is semantics to differentiate the two and a split
phase system really has two phases just the same as a "two phase"
system. The phases simply have a different separation angle.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

There is a ton if information available on the topic. Two phase was
common in the old days.
Powerhouses generate 3 phase power, 1 phase goes down your street to a
transformer that's center tapped, giving you 120 and 240v. The two 120
circuits are 180 degree apart but the circuit isn't out of phase with
itself. Real 2 phase is 90 degree out of phase and usually used 4 wires.
Boring stuff, to me.

Then why do you write about it?


Like most adults, I've had to learn at least a bit about several topics that
aren't too exciting to me, but which I have to work with or around. Like
electricity, insurance, the tax code, ect. That doesn't mean I'm not willing
to throw in my 2 bits every now and then.



Yes, the generally accepted term for the power delivered to your house
from a center tapped transformer is split-phase. Yes, what is commonly
called two-phase power is 90 degrees between phases rather than 180, but
my point is that this is semantics to differentiate the two and a split
phase system really has two phases just the same as a "two phase" system.
The phases simply have a different separation angle.


Well, call it what you want, there really is a difference, and it's well
documented by people that understand the issue much better than me. Like I
said, it falls pretty low on my priority list.


JTMcC.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
JTMcC wrote:

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....


had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a
temporary.
This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase),
and a
120V

GCFI

outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.



There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty
uncommon
these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used
to be
more

common,

in the early days of electrification.


There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond,
Hunting
Park and Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might
be some
left in Atlantic City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old
machine. It's cool.


And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

Yes, and going back to the OP, even thought it isn't common
usage,
the two 110V legs off a center tapped transformer really do
constitute a two-phase system. If these two legs weren't 180
out of
phase, you'd not be able to get both 110 and 220.

However, having said that, you will get funny looks if you
talk about
having two-phase power in your house, even though is
essentially what
you have.


Matt

A very minor point, I agree, and I also call it 2 phase, but it's
not. When you get on a board like this, there are people from
boths sides of the breaker panel, and thus the arguements come
about when someone who's actually worked with 1 2 or 3 (or even
more) phases, it sometimes throws them for a loop. Then there
are also the kind who just have to pop in and explain how wrong
everyone is, and how only they know the proper answer, but never
back up anything they say so they can get a good drifting of the
thread. I hope I'm not either, but, just having had a
conversation with my electricla inspector over some work I had
done and having my mind in that gutter, I mean, area, here's my
take on it:

Actually, it's not two phase by definition. It's "split phase",
derived from a single phase. The two "phases" of the same single
phase are simply applied to the wiring so that the sine wave in
each leg is 180 degrees out of phase with the other. If it comes
in as single phase, it's single phase no matter what you do to
it. Thus, the proper term is split phase.

But, ignoring the source, since I have two wires with different
phases of electricity in it in my house, and not caring how it
goes thru the sfmr out on the pole, I got two phase power, damn
it! Now if I want to have 208Vac, maybe I'll have to get more
specific, but until then, it's 2 phase split power when you're in
MY house!

g

Pop

Pop wrote:
....
... it's 2 phase split power when you're in MY house!

g

g noted...

Story (perhaps apocryphal, I don't know)...

Riddle-- How many legs does a sheep have if you call the tail a leg?

A. Lincoln's (supposed) answer--"None, calling a tail a leg doesn't make
it one!" VBG

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Pop wrote:
...
... it's 2 phase split power when you're in MY house!

g

g noted...

Story (perhaps apocryphal, I don't know)...

Riddle-- How many legs does a sheep have if you call the tail a leg?

A. Lincoln's (supposed) answer--

Damn...you'd think I could at least get it right...

"Four, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one!"

Pop wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

JTMcC wrote:


"Kathy" wrote in message
...


"JTMcC" wrote in message
...


"Tekkie" wrote in message
ual.net...


Lil' Dave posted for all of us....



had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a
temporary.
This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase),
and a
120V

GCFI


outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.



There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty
uncommon
these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used
to be
more

common,


in the early days of electrification.


There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond,
Hunting
Park and Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might
be some
left in Atlantic City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old
machine. It's cool.


And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

Yes, and going back to the OP, even thought it isn't common
usage,
the two 110V legs off a center tapped transformer really do
constitute a two-phase system. If these two legs weren't 180
out of
phase, you'd not be able to get both 110 and 220.

However, having said that, you will get funny looks if you
talk about
having two-phase power in your house, even though is
essentially what
you have.


Matt


A very minor point, I agree, and I also call it 2 phase, but it's
not. When you get on a board like this, there are people from
boths sides of the breaker panel, and thus the arguements come
about when someone who's actually worked with 1 2 or 3 (or even
more) phases, it sometimes throws them for a loop. Then there
are also the kind who just have to pop in and explain how wrong
everyone is, and how only they know the proper answer, but never
back up anything they say so they can get a good drifting of the
thread. I hope I'm not either, but, just having had a
conversation with my electricla inspector over some work I had
done and having my mind in that gutter, I mean, area, here's my
take on it:

Actually, it's not two phase by definition. It's "split phase",
derived from a single phase. The two "phases" of the same single
phase are simply applied to the wiring so that the sine wave in
each leg is 180 degrees out of phase with the other. If it comes
in as single phase, it's single phase no matter what you do to
it. Thus, the proper term is split phase.

So if I use a MG unit running on the single phase coming into my house
to create polyphase power you are saying it is still really single phase
since that is what it came into my house as? Polyphase can be created
from single phase and vice versa. This has been done for years in both
power systems and electronic systems.

Yes, the convention in the power industry is to call two-phase only that
which has two sinusoids separated by a phase angle of 90 degrees,
however, that is a definition used only by the power industry. Any time
two phases are present, it can rightfully be called "two phase" no
matter what the phase angle separation may be. Again, the power
industry refers to three phase only when the separation angle is 120
degrees (which gives no current in the neutral with a balanced load -
which has some advantages), however, the broader definition covers any
system with three distinct phases.


Matt

So if I use a MG unit running on the single phase coming into my
house
to create polyphase power you are saying it is still really single
phase
since that is what it came into my house as? Polyphase can be
created
from single phase and vice versa. This has been done for years in
both
power systems and electronic systems.

Yes, the convention in the power industry is to call two-phase only
that
which has two sinusoids separated by a phase angle of 90 degrees,
however, that is a definition used only by the power industry. Any
time
two phases are present, it can rightfully be called "two phase" no
matter what the phase angle separation may be. Again, the power
industry refers to three phase only when the separation angle is 120
degrees (which gives no current in the neutral with a balanced load -

which has some advantages), however, the broader definition covers
any
system with three distinct phases.


Matt

Ok, I followed the whole argument up to "polyphase". Care to explain
that to a semi-novice?

On a related topic: In rural Canada there are thousands of homes fed by
a single transmission line. No neutral/ground. This line goes into a
transformer which then feeds the home & outbuildings. What's happening
here? I assume the transformer is supplying 110/220 single phase, but
if Canada can do it with one wire, why does the USA do it with two?
Does that factor into the one phase/two phase argument?

Bob S.

Bob S. wrote:

So if I use a MG unit running on the single phase coming into my

house

to create polyphase power you are saying it is still really single

phase

since that is what it came into my house as? Polyphase can be

created

from single phase and vice versa. This has been done for years in

both

power systems and electronic systems.

Yes, the convention in the power industry is to call two-phase only

that

which has two sinusoids separated by a phase angle of 90 degrees,
however, that is a definition used only by the power industry. Any

time

two phases are present, it can rightfully be called "two phase" no
matter what the phase angle separation may be. Again, the power
industry refers to three phase only when the separation angle is 120
degrees (which gives no current in the neutral with a balanced load -


which has some advantages), however, the broader definition covers

any

system with three distinct phases.


Matt


Ok, I followed the whole argument up to "polyphase". Care to explain
that to a semi-novice?

Polyphase simply means more than one phase. It is a generic term.


On a related topic: In rural Canada there are thousands of homes fed by
a single transmission line. No neutral/ground. This line goes into a
transformer which then feeds the home & outbuildings. What's happening
here? I assume the transformer is supplying 110/220 single phase, but
if Canada can do it with one wire, why does the USA do it with two?
Does that factor into the one phase/two phase argument?

I'm not a power transmission expert so I'm not 100% sure on this. They
are obviously using the ground as the "neutral." In the US typically a
separate neutral line is run, but it is also grounded at each service
entrance to ensure that no potential exists between the neutral and the
grounding conductor.

The only reason I can think of for two wires is safety. In a single
wire system, a short to ground (earth, the real ground) could be very
hard to detect. With a two wire system, you could monitor the current
in both the hot and neutral wires and detect if the hot was shorted to
earth by the imbalance. Since I've seen very few power lines that
de-energize when a short occurs, I doubt this is being done. The other
reason for two wires is to keep the grouding conductor dedicated for
handling safety issues such as shorts. In a one-wire system, the ground
rods and ground conductors have to be carrying current all of the time.
This can cause a wide range of problems such as varying voltages as the
resistance of the ground connection varies over time (soil conditions,
etc.). Again, I'm not a power distribution engineer, my EE is in
digital systems, and I learned just enough to pass the PE exam, however,
basic circuit theory tells you the above.

There must be good reason for the two conductor distribution system or
the power companies would not invest the added cost.


Matt

041230 1553 - Pop posted:

Matt Whiting wrote:
JTMcC wrote:

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....


had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a
temporary.
This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase),
and a
120V

GCFI

outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.



There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty
uncommon
these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used
to be
more

common,

in the early days of electrification.


There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond,
Hunting
Park and Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might
be some
left in Atlantic City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old
machine. It's cool.


And I, think, around Niagra Falls.

Yes, and going back to the OP, even thought it isn't common
usage,
the two 110V legs off a center tapped transformer really do
constitute a two-phase system. If these two legs weren't 180
out of
phase, you'd not be able to get both 110 and 220.

However, having said that, you will get funny looks if you
talk about
having two-phase power in your house, even though is
essentially what
you have.


Matt

A very minor point, I agree, and I also call it 2 phase, but it's
not. When you get on a board like this, there are people from
boths sides of the breaker panel, and thus the arguements come
about when someone who's actually worked with 1 2 or 3 (or even
more) phases, it sometimes throws them for a loop. Then there
are also the kind who just have to pop in and explain how wrong
everyone is, and how only they know the proper answer, but never
back up anything they say so they can get a good drifting of the
thread. I hope I'm not either, but, just having had a
conversation with my electricla inspector over some work I had
done and having my mind in that gutter, I mean, area, here's my
take on it:

Actually, it's not two phase by definition. It's "split phase",
derived from a single phase. The two "phases" of the same single
phase are simply applied to the wiring so that the sine wave in
each leg is 180 degrees out of phase with the other. If it comes
in as single phase, it's single phase no matter what you do to
it. Thus, the proper term is split phase.

But, ignoring the source, since I have two wires with different
phases of electricity in it in my house, and not caring how it
goes thru the sfmr out on the pole, I got two phase power, damn
it! Now if I want to have 208Vac, maybe I'll have to get more
specific, but until then, it's 2 phase split power when you're in
MY house!


It can be explained a lot simpler than this. The term "two-phase" applied
to the wiring in a residential home could be a mistaken derivation of the
two phase wires brought into the house.

Matt Whiting wrote:

Bob S. wrote:

....
... In rural Canada there are thousands of homes fed by
a single transmission line. No neutral/ground. This line goes into a
transformer which then feeds the home & outbuildings. What's happening
here? I assume the transformer is supplying 110/220 single phase, but
if Canada can do it with one wire, why does the USA do it with two?
Does that factor into the one phase/two phase argument?

I'm not a power transmission expert so I'm not 100% sure on this. They
are obviously using the ground as the "neutral." In the US typically a
separate neutral line is run, but it is also grounded at each service
entrance to ensure that no potential exists between the neutral and the
grounding conductor.

....

The areas in Canada where single-line transmission lines are still used
is an area where there is also a relatively high iron content in the
ground so that the ground conductivity is higher than in many other
places, as well as being rural. (At least that was what the fella's at
the power stations in SE Saskatchewan (Poplar River PS near Weyburn)
told me when I was there.) The earth-return is, indeed, a cost-saving
device in those remote areas. There used to be a few places in the US,
but to the best of my knowledge they have all been
upgraded/replaced...the original REA co-op lines strung in our service
area (in 1947-'48!) were one-wire, but were replaced as early as
practical...I don't remember any past roughly the mid-50's.

wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:21:18 -0500, "Pop" wrote:


Lil' Dave wrote:

"Tekkie" wrote in message
l.net...

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....


...

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the
transformer pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not
insulated. 2
wires are insulated. These wires go to the meter on the power
pole.
Explain 3 phase power entry point when there are only 2 power
wires... I don't need a search engine to determine the number
of
phases provided by the power company at this location. A
common
neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

...

Everybody's wrong: Normal household power is called "split
phase", where there will be 3 wires, two hot, and one neutral.
Evan many electricians will call it 2-phase, but it's not because
of the angular difference in split phase which is 180 degrees.
Three phase is more precisely used in power distribution grids,
factories and other high voltage situation, now low voltage as in
residential power. 120/240 is considered "low" voltage in this
arena.
Try looking up "split phase" +power" . When reading, one
must be careful WHAT he is reading about, when you get into 1, 2,
3, etc. phase situations and star and delta methodologies.

Quote:
Split phase

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Split phase is a mains electrical supply system mainly used in
America (where it is usually and incorrectly referred to as two
phase). It is used occasionally in the UK in distribution
situations where only two 11 kilovolt phases are available, but
it is rarely taken into buildings.

A transformer providing split phase has a single phase input, and
the output is centre-tapped with the neutral on the centre tap.

This means that there are two phase conductors both equidistant

from the neutral. Therefore (provided the balance is good),

appliances can be directly supplied with the normal voltage with
some of the advantages of higher voltages, such as smaller cables
and/or lower losses. It also means that appliances can be
supplied that need double the normal voltage, so it is WIDELY
USED for high power or European equipment in the USA.




Thank you for explaining it, I usually get messed up since my
background is from the 3-phase industrial shop.

But to be an antagnoist, since the phases are truely opposite of each
other(180 degrees), then it can be referred as two-phases, since they
aren't in phase with eachother.


Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe, are
still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".

--
Tony
I don't need an anti-static workplace... since I have no potential.

Tony Miklos wrote:

Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe, are
still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".


But using this definition of "in phase", all power systems are "in
phase" as the respective phase angles are constant between all phases.
It doesn't matter if the phase separation is 90, 120 or 180 (as in split
phase). The reality is that you can't distinquish "split" phase from
"two" phase with 180 degree phase separation, as they are identical. It
doesn't matter if the two phases are created directly from a rotating
machine or from a center tapped transformer.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe,
are still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".



But using this definition of "in phase", all power systems are "in
phase" as the respective phase angles are constant between all phases.
It doesn't matter if the phase separation is 90, 120 or 180 (as in split
phase). The reality is that you can't distinquish "split" phase from
"two" phase with 180 degree phase separation, as they are identical. It
doesn't matter if the two phases are created directly from a rotating
machine or from a center tapped transformer.

If you looked at, and understood the waveforms on an oscilloscope
comparing single (split or not) phase to 3 phase, I would like to
believe that it is impossible to mistake a single split phase for three
phase. Of course I do not know if you have ever *looked* at the two on
a scope? That could be the problem understanding the difference.

--
Tony

Tony, this is my first post on this subject, put it is hard not to jump in
when you respond so negatively to a post you clearly didn't thoroughly
read. Matt was comparing "split phase" and "two" phase with 180 degree
phase separation in which he correctly states that the two phases are 180-
degrees apart. His statement about them being identical is also entirely
correct.

I believe he does demonstrate he knows the difference between single and
three phase.

Now, of course, three phase power can be either wye or delta connected and
there is a difference between these two kinds of three phase power. I'm
sure you can explain the difference to us in simple terms and which kind is
used for general power distribution and why. When is the other kind used?

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:39:46 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe,
are still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".



But using this definition of "in phase", all power systems are "in
phase" as the respective phase angles are constant between all phases.
It doesn't matter if the phase separation is 90, 120 or 180 (as in split
phase). The reality is that you can't distinquish "split" phase from
"two" phase with 180 degree phase separation, as they are identical. It
doesn't matter if the two phases are created directly from a rotating
machine or from a center tapped transformer.

If you looked at, and understood the waveforms on an oscilloscope
comparing single (split or not) phase to 3 phase, I would like to
believe that it is impossible to mistake a single split phase for three
phase. Of course I do not know if you have ever *looked* at the two on
a scope? That could be the problem understanding the difference.

Tony, this is my first post on this subject, put it is hard not to jump in
when you respond so negatively to a post you clearly didn't thoroughly
read. Matt was comparing "split phase" and "two" phase with 180 degree
phase separation in which he correctly states that the two phases are 180-
degrees apart. His statement about them being identical is also entirely
correct.

I believe he does demonstrate he knows the difference between single and
three phase.

Now, of course, three phase power can be either wye or delta connected and
there is a difference between these two kinds of three phase power. I'm
sure you can explain the difference to us in simple terms and which kind is
used for general power distribution and why. When is the other kind used?

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:39:46 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe,
are still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".



But using this definition of "in phase", all power systems are "in
phase" as the respective phase angles are constant between all phases.
It doesn't matter if the phase separation is 90, 120 or 180 (as in split
phase). The reality is that you can't distinquish "split" phase from
"two" phase with 180 degree phase separation, as they are identical. It
doesn't matter if the two phases are created directly from a rotating
machine or from a center tapped transformer.

If you looked at, and understood the waveforms on an oscilloscope
comparing single (split or not) phase to 3 phase, I would like to
believe that it is impossible to mistake a single split phase for three
phase. Of course I do not know if you have ever *looked* at the two on
a scope? That could be the problem understanding the difference.

Tony Miklos wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Tony Miklos wrote:

Sorry antagonist. That is incorrect. The "phases" as you describe,
are still in sync with each other. Their voltage potential from
neutral/center tap is indeed *opposite*, but still "in phase".




But using this definition of "in phase", all power systems are "in
phase" as the respective phase angles are constant between all phases.
It doesn't matter if the phase separation is 90, 120 or 180 (as in
split phase). The reality is that you can't distinquish "split" phase
from "two" phase with 180 degree phase separation, as they are
identical. It doesn't matter if the two phases are created directly
from a rotating machine or from a center tapped transformer.


If you looked at, and understood the waveforms on an oscilloscope
comparing single (split or not) phase to 3 phase, I would like to
believe that it is impossible to mistake a single split phase for three
phase. Of course I do not know if you have ever *looked* at the two on
a scope? That could be the problem understanding the difference.

Read it again. I never said I was comparing split phase to 3 phase. I
said that "split" phase was the same as "two" phase with a 180 degree
phase separation. I've looked at a lot of waveforms on a scope and that
is why I know that there is nothing magic about getting two phases by
"splitting" a single phase using a transformer vs. getting two phases
from a two phase generator with a 180 phase separation. Someone earlier
suggested that there was something unique about getting two phases from
a single phase and that simply isn't true.


Matt

wrote:

Tony, this is my first post on this subject, put it is hard not to jump in
when you respond so negatively to a post you clearly didn't thoroughly
read. Matt was comparing "split phase" and "two" phase with 180 degree
phase separation in which he correctly states that the two phases are 180-
degrees apart. His statement about them being identical is also entirely
correct.

I believe he does demonstrate he knows the difference between single and
three phase.

Now, of course, three phase power can be either wye or delta connected and
there is a difference between these two kinds of three phase power. I'm
sure you can explain the difference to us in simple terms and which kind is
used for general power distribution and why. When is the other kind used?

Yes, there is a difference, but it is pretty small ... one more
conductor. :-)

Matt

Now, of course, three phase power can be either wye or delta connected and
there is a difference between these two kinds of three phase power. I'm
sure you can explain the difference to us in simple terms and which kind is
used for general power distribution and why. When is the other kind used?

Yes, there is a difference, but it is pretty small ... one more
conductor. :-)

Actually there is quite a bit more difference:

Delta and Wye Power
In the United States, there are two main types, or topologies, of three
phase power. These are called Delta connected power, and Wye connected
power. There are some similarities between Delta connected power and Wye
connected power, and many differences. It is important to understand these
two varieties of three phase power in order to properly specify power for
your critical loads.

Delta Connected Power
Delta connected power is developed from three, independent transformer or
generator windings that are connected head to toe. There is no single point
common to all phases. Delta power is named after the schematic resemblance
of the windings to the Greek letter Delta.

A Delta Connected Source
Delta connected power is not commercially used in Europe. Three-phase
European equipment requires Wye-connected power.

Wye Connected Power
Wye connected power is developed from three, independent transformer or
generator windings that are connected at a common point, called a neutral
or star point. Wye power is named after the schematic resemblance of the
windings to the Greek letter Wye ( Y ).

Delta vs. Wye Power
Wye connected power has two different voltages available. The Phase to
Phase voltage is the main system voltage (typically 208 VAC or 480 VAC in
the United States). The Phase to Neutral voltage is also available, and is
typically used for small single phase loads (120 VAC or 277 VAC).

Delta connected power only has a single voltage level available: the Phase
to Phase voltages. Other voltages can be obtained only by using step-up or
step-down transformers.

Equipment designed to operate from Delta connected power, such as air
conditioners or motors, can also operate from Wye connected power without a
problem, since the Phase to Phase voltages are available in both systems.
However, equipment that requires Wye connected power cannot operate from a
Delta connected source. The Phase to Neutral voltages are not available. A
special isolation transformer, designed to convert Delta to Wye, is used in
this case.

Grounding of Delta and Wye Systems
It is common practice to ground the neutral, or center point of a Wye
connected source. In most cases, this grounding is required by the United
States' National Electric Code (NFPA-70). By grounding a Wye system, the
voltages to ground are stabilized and controlled. This makes a system much
less susceptible to impulses, ringing transients, and faults that cause
high voltages to ground. A Delta system is not required to be grounded,
although some Delta systems are grounded. Usually these are grounded to one
phase or to a center tap of one of the phases. This type of grounding is
rare, however. In most cases, Delta systems are not grounded.

Ungrounded or Floating Sources
Ungrounded sources are often called Floating, because they float with
reference to earth ground. System and wiring capacitance determines the
voltage on any system point with reference to ground. As a result of this,
the Phase-Ground voltages on an ungrounded source are very susceptible to
power quality disturbances.

The above is from http://www.teal.com/resources/an15.htm

wrote:

Now, of course, three phase power can be either wye or delta connected and
there is a difference between these two kinds of three phase power. I'm
sure you can explain the difference to us in simple terms and which kind is
used for general power distribution and why. When is the other kind used?

Yes, there is a difference, but it is pretty small ... one more
conductor. :-)


Actually there is quite a bit more difference:

No, all of the stuff you posted is due to having the common connection
(neutral conductor) that was mentioned early in the posted text. All
else follows from that one difference.


Matt

wrote:

Tony, this is my first post on this subject, put it is hard not to jump in
when you respond so negatively to a post you clearly didn't thoroughly
read.

Well I read it... more than once, but I guess my ADHD was kicking in and
I didn't understand the post. My appologies to Matt.

--
Tony