"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations, without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high voltage signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack where the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck crossing to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it. Installed the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours, went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up, discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home. Within six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables in conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't designed for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation. Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it to a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that was secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL! Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching (if not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

Andy suggests:

One caveat here..... the UF cable normally specified for underground
burial is supposed to
be BURIED by itself, not BURIED in conduit.

I have been told that the CODE does not permit UF to be buried in the
smaller diameters
of PVC conduit. I haven't checked it, but it sort of makes since....

HOWEVER, I ALWAYS bury my UF in PVC conduit, usually half inch,
whether code
compliant or not for one basic reason.... :

When I go to dig it up , or find it, or dig another trench over it
later, my shovel will
hit the PVC pipe first, and NOT nick the UF before I can stop
myselft........

Only cost about another 10 cents a foot, here, but makes me feel a
lot safer about
digging around a buried cable.......

I don't put joints in, just slip the pvc over the cable. This way
I know for sure I
am not dealing with a water line......
Andy

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed electrician
for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had reinforced
with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in time lose
some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations, without those
junctions...


So according to the above does that mean that all pvc underground
installations will eventually fail .I.E. water pipes sprinklers etc.......?
mjh

"mike hide" wrote in message
...

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the
conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above
ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench.
A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not
normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here
people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground! So I chose conduit
thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying
underground cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in
to the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a
licensed electrician
for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance
reasons). Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then.
I have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I
had reinforced
with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does
in time lose
some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the
cable layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


So according to the above does that mean that all pvc
underground
installations will eventually fail .I.E. water pipes
sprinklers etc.......?
mjh

All such installations will not fail...but some will fail..
depending on the circumstances. Even copper and galv steel
pipe fails after a time. When I put a job in, I put it in
with the failure mode in mind.

For instance I wouldnt run pvc water lines in a
basement..where physical damage could flood the basement...
but I might use a more durable cross linked plastic in the
basement. Or copper which can fail but its failure mode is
pin hole leaks not breaking in half. ..same considerations
with electrical. We use PVC underground.. it doesnt
corrode. But its not nearly as strong against getting hit by
a shovel as ridgid conduit.. rigid metal conduit however can
rust through... in a salt water infiltrated area it wont last
more than a few years.... in other areas metal would be your
best choice.. none of this is fully coverable in the NEC
code.

The code states though that one must use his head. In some
cases, industrial sites for instance, I run electrical in
grossly oversized schedule 40 galvanized steel water pipe
under areas where later trenching is likely..with a concrete
bulk head at each end..so that a back hoe can hit it without
tearing it up. Cost? Not much... 40' of 3" pipe and few
sacks of dry mix is under a few hundred dollars installed.

If its 240 volts in light gage wire the risks are lower than
say 480 volts direct from a large transformer in 000 wire...
that can easily be fatal if hit underground... so the heavy
480 goes in a lot differently than light amperage 240 vac say
#6 or lighter wire... distance from the utility service is
also an issue. the closer you are to the meter (and the heavy
utility feeders, and the heavier the utility transformers
(they are being paralleled lately to serve larger loads) the
greater the 'bolted' short amperage is... this is explosive
the closer you get to the heavy feeders....

..... at a distance from the heavy feeders on ligher wire,
there is not enough current carrying capacity in the wire to
create an explosion when shorted. (Google search term on
that range of issues would be 'arc flash, explosion'... this
can easily exceed a few sticks of dynamite... hard to believe
aint it?).

These arc flash issues are becoming more relevant now than
previously due to the utility company's need to parallel
service drop transformers to service a load... what happens is
that the combined transformer circuit breaker is now *grossly
oversized...so a dead short doesn't trip them in milliseconds
as before, but allows hundreds of thousands of amps to flow to
the short for half a second or a second or longer before
tripping increasing the danger and magnitude of the explosion
exponentially.

New regulations are in the works to code the floor areas in
industrial and large commercial buildings for instance...
around utility service main panels and transformers .... so
that only licensed electricians are permitted...with warning
lables applied detailing the nature of the transformer circuit
breakers and 'bolted short' time to trip ratings.



Phil Scott

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit.
Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground
junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A
protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally
full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people
were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it, or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant, say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though a
person are the primary issues... When you are underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
...its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott








So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground
cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to
the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed
electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons).
Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I
have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had
reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in
time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable
layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep
plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high voltage
signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack where
the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck crossing
to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it. Installed
the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours,
went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up,
discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be
pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home. Within
six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables in
conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't designed
for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation.
Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it to
a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that was
secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL!
Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough
brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching (if
not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you
wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
. ..

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually
surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit.
Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site,
for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground
junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A
protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally
full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people
were conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something
new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it, or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant, say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though a
person are the primary issues... When you are underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
..its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott


How about this scenario, (its an actual situation that I have). Water well
driller and home builder needed electricity supply. The anticipated use
time exceeded six months prior to the home being finished. The home
building did not start until October, the well was drilled in March. So, I
had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.

The house is nearing completion, and the house contractor is strongly
suggesting I have the meter moved to the house, and I have the lines run
from the transformer pole to the house. The house has an external main
panel connection to receive power from the meter. This would leave a pole
with a main panel sitting on my property with nothing for it to do.

What I would like to do is tie in to the main bus bar on the main panel
(240V 200 amp) on the current power pole, run the cable (wire size?)
underground to the main panel on the house. The house has a current max use
of 135 amps if all is going at once with all installed appliances, electric
water heater, electric heat/AC. Yes, its quite a small sq. footage home.
The house is approximately 50 feet away from the current power pole.

And, a detached garage was built. Its wired and ready to go. Its wired
strictly for one phase power. But, will run both phases to it for future
possibilities. It has a on/off input switch externally mounted which feeds
a small panel. This panel has three 20 amp circuit breaker feeding internal
lights, external lights, internal 115 outlets, and two external 115 outlets.
The garage is about 200 feet from the current power pole, and about 100 feet
from the house. This, of course, needs to be underground cable fed (wire
size?).

Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

From: Tekkie


Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

Let's replace 2-phase with "2-leg" and leave it at that.

Another poster claims the meter must be relocated onto the home as per NEC.

In reality, the NEC and the AHJ's power to enforce it tapers off into a grey
area from the service entrance panel to the metering equipment, and on up to
the weather head or in the case of underground service, any wiring or equipment
prior to the service entrance panel.

I have seen temporary service "meter-mains," specifically, a 200 amp
weatherproof panel with a meter base built right in, turn into a home's main
disconnect.

These panels are popular on boat docks where space is limited. A main 200a
breaker is covered by a weather tight door, and the panel has 20 1" spaces for
20 full size breakers, and 4-8 of them will accept "twin" style tandem
breakers.

It is entirely up to your utility if they'll accept the remote metering site.

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the transformer
pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not insulated. 2 wires are insulated.
These wires go to the meter on the power pole. Explain 3 phase power entry
point when there are only 2 power wires... I don't need a search engine to
determine the number of phases provided by the power company at this
location. A common neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

Yes its a ganged double pole breaker. But, those with a knowledgable
response would assume that as well. And don't need a search engine to
figure that out.

Oh man, you talk about "two phase" electricity? They are going to beat you
to death over this one, like they have been doing for years. And rightfully
so. You lack the "very" basic understanding to even be discussing electrical
service.

JTMcC.


"Lil' Dave" wrote in message
link.net...
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase. If you live outside
a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You
might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts
to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the transformer
pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not insulated. 2 wires are
insulated.
These wires go to the meter on the power pole. Explain 3 phase power
entry
point when there are only 2 power wires... I don't need a search engine
to
determine the number of phases provided by the power company at this
location. A common neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.

Yes its a ganged double pole breaker. But, those with a knowledgable
response would assume that as well. And don't need a search engine to
figure that out.

Lil' Dave wrote:
"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

....

I looked at the "flower pot" that feed the power pole from the
transformer pole. There are 3 wires. 1 wire is not
insulated. 2
wires are insulated. These wires go to the meter on the power
pole.
Explain 3 phase power entry point when there are only 2 power
wires... I don't need a search engine to determine the number
of
phases provided by the power company at this location. A
common
neutral or ground is not another phase by any measure.
....

Everybody's wrong: Normal household power is called "split
phase", where there will be 3 wires, two hot, and one neutral.
Evan many electricians will call it 2-phase, but it's not because
of the angular difference in split phase which is 180 degrees.
Three phase is more precisely used in power distribution grids,
factories and other high voltage situation, now low voltage as in
residential power. 120/240 is considered "low" voltage in this
arena.
Try looking up "split phase" +power" . When reading, one
must be careful WHAT he is reading about, when you get into 1, 2,
3, etc. phase situations and star and delta methodologies.

Quote:
Split phase
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Split phase is a mains electrical supply system mainly used in
America (where it is usually and incorrectly referred to as two
phase). It is used occasionally in the UK in distribution
situations where only two 11 kilovolt phases are available, but
it is rarely taken into buildings.

A transformer providing split phase has a single phase input, and
the output is centre-tapped with the neutral on the centre tap.

This means that there are two phase conductors both equidistant
from the neutral. Therefore (provided the balance is good),
appliances can be directly supplied with the normal voltage with
some of the advantages of higher voltages, such as smaller cables
and/or lower losses. It also means that appliances can be
supplied that need double the normal voltage, so it is WIDELY
USED for high power or European equipment in the USA.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A split phase motor is a type of induction motor designed for use
on single-phase electric power, characterized by low cost, low
starting torque, and high starting current. Such motors are
chiefly used in blower applications.

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more common,
in the early days of electrification.You can convert 3 phase to 2 phase with
what I believe is called a Scott-T transformer?

JTMcC, certainly no electrical expert, but I have relatives that are.




If you live outside a
manufacturing area then you most likely only have single phase. You might
be referring to a double pole breaker to your well that gives 240 volts to
the pump.

I suggest you get a little more knowledge so you can understand what you
are
being told. Search engines are your friend.
--
Tekkie

"JTMcC" wrote in message
...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
Lil' Dave posted for all of us....

had to have permanent meter loop installed vice a temporary. This
provides
power to the water well pump (30 amp breaker two phase), and a 120V
GCFI
outlet (20 amp one phase) for the home contractor subs.


There is no two phase power. Single or three phase.


There is such a thing as two phase, but it's pretty uncommon these days. I
believe it's still in use a few places back east. It used to be more
common,
in the early days of electrification.

There's a little 2-Phase left around Philly. Richmond, Hunting Park and
Northeast Philly, that I know of. And there might be some left in Atlantic
City. I have a 2 Phase motor out of an old machine. It's cool.

Thanks Phil for your thorough commentary/analysis/etc. pertaining to the
O.P.'s (my) situation. (Sorry, though, for taking so long to respond.)

Amongst the other significant points you made, you wrote:

... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...

Okay, I can understand how pouring urethane roof sealant into the j-boxes
can not be expected to have legal status, if not only because it would not
appear to be "rational". But I'm not clear on, if for some oddball reason
someone were to try this, as to why you say (or seem to imply) _with
certainty_ that the urethane rubber could not be expected to electrically
isolate the connections in the j-box from each other and/or the outside
ground?

Thanks,

Guest987


"Phil Scott" wrote in message
. ..

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench. A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but eventually it
is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it, or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant, say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though a
person are the primary issues... When you are underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
..its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott








So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying underground
cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in to
the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a licensed
electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance reasons).
Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then. I
have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I had
reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does in
time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the cable
layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep
plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high voltage
signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack where
the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck crossing
to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it. Installed
the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours,
went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up,
discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be
pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home. Within
six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables in
conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't designed
for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation.
Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it to
a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that was
secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL!
Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough
brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching (if
not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you
wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

guest987 posted for all of us....

Okay, I can understand how pouring urethane roof sealant into the j-boxes
can not be expected to have legal status, if not only because it would not
appear to be "rational". But I'm not clear on, if for some oddball reason
someone were to try this, as to why you say (or seem to imply) _with
certainty_ that the urethane rubber could not be expected to electrically
isolate the connections in the j-box from each other and/or the outside
ground?

Thanks,

Guest987

This dielectric strength has been tested & LISTED for what?

Could actually become conductive under certain circumstances.
--
Tekkie

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
[..]
This dielectric strength has been tested & LISTED for what?

Could actually become conductive under certain circumstances.

I see.

Now out of pure curiosity though, are there any such "pourable" materials or
products, which HAVE been tested and listed as safe and acceptable for such
a purpose (i.e. to immobilize, seal and electrically insulate
connectors...)?

Not that I care to try using such. It's just that I've had people claim
that epoxy (5-minute, common hardware-store variety??) can be safely used
this way. I used to think that made logical and intuitive sense. But now
that I'm becoming better 'edyucanated' g in this stuff (i.e. construction
wiring, etc...) I can see that, here, logic and intuition cannot be
permitted to substitute for referencing and following _only_ that which is
tested and approved practice.

Guest987

"guest987" wrote in message
news:_I8Cd.677115$Pl.617815@pd7tw1no...

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
[..]
This dielectric strength has been tested & LISTED for
what?

Could actually become conductive under certain
circumstances.

I see.

Now out of pure curiosity though, are there any such
"pourable" materials or
products, which HAVE been tested and listed as safe and
acceptable for such
a purpose (i.e. to immobilize, seal and electrically
insulate
connectors...)?


Yes there are and you should have used them to seal and
electrically insulate the splice....I recommended the urthene
to FILL THE BOX ONLY and for a water sealant...to keep water
from collecting in the empty splice box.



Not that I care to try using such. It's just that I've had
people claim
that epoxy (5-minute, common hardware-store variety??) can
be safely used
this way. I used to think that made logical and intuitive
sense. But now
that I'm becoming better 'edyucanated' g in this stuff
(i.e. construction
wiring, etc...) I can see that, here, logic and intuition
cannot be
permitted to substitute for referencing and following _only_
that which is
tested and approved practice.


sigh....





Guest987

"Tekkie" wrote in message
t...
guest987 posted for all of us....

Okay, I can understand how pouring urethane roof sealant
into the j-boxes
can not be expected to have legal status, if not only
because it would not
appear to be "rational". But I'm not clear on, if for
some oddball reason
someone were to try this, as to why you say (or seem to
imply) _with
certainty_ that the urethane rubber could not be expected
to electrically
isolate the connections in the j-box from each other
and/or the outside
ground?

Thanks,

Guest987

This dielectric strength has been tested & LISTED for what?

Could actually become conductive under certain
circumstances.

You dont use the urethane roof sealant to make the splice...
you use it to fill the splice box after you have made a proper
electrically insulative splice.. to provide a degree of
additional water proofing and strength in the area.

Phil Scott

--
Tekkie

"guest987" wrote in message
news:Tr_Bd.681745$%k.351186@pd7tw2no...
Thanks Phil for your thorough commentary/analysis/etc.
pertaining to the
O.P.'s (my) situation. (Sorry, though, for taking so long
to respond.)

Amongst the other significant points you made, you wrote:

... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid
applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it
couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some
guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it
wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...

Okay, I can understand how pouring urethane roof sealant
into the j-boxes
can not be expected to have legal status, if not only
because it would not
appear to be "rational". But I'm not clear on, if for some
oddball reason
someone were to try this, as to why you say (or seem to
imply) _with
certainty_ that the urethane rubber could not be expected to
electrically
isolate the connections in the j-box from each other and/or
the outside
ground?

Thanks,

The urethane would **NOT*** be intended or used for
electrical insulation.. for that you rely bolted and rubber
taped and rubber liquid sealed connections....THEN...after
thats done you fill the box with the urethane roof sealant for
many reasons... a degree of water protection, and added
strength at the splice zone so that when the ground gets muddy
and someone drives over it with thier 20 ton cement truck the
wiring and splice will be more likely to stay in tact.

Phil Scott

Guest987


"Phil Scott" wrote in
message
. ..

"guest987" wrote in message
news:uWuyd.546239$Pl.492525@pd7tw1no...
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
[...]
Despite your best attempts, eventually there
virtually surely will be
a leak and water will find a way in. Only
underground-rated cable
should be used in an underground run despite the
conduit. Normally
(unless there is an access tunnel in an industrial
site, for example)
conduit is used to protect the cable from the above
ground junction to
the required depth then the cable is laid in a trench.
A protective
barrier is sometimes used over the cable, but not
normally full run
buried in conduit. It's not an immediate danger, but
eventually it
is
virtually certain to get water...

I see. So conduit was never meant to be a substitute for
rubber-sheathed
underground-rated cable in the first place. And here
people were
conveying
to me that rubber-sheathed underground-cable was
something new in that it
didn't require conduit underground!

Close but no cigar just yet. You do need underground
rated cable for UG locations...but you do not have to use
conduit beyond a certain depth...usually 32"..

You can go shallower if you have a concrete pour over it,
or
if it is in conduit of various sorts...the *minimum depths
are
all called out in the NEC... but that doesnt mean a
persons
particular job is safe or right, depends on how soft the
ground is in worst case conditions (muddy etc, with heavy
vehicles over the top).. salt water infiltration as we
have at
low levels near the coast in many regions.

and of course no J Boxes underground at all (unless they
are
in a manhole etc)....

Then there is fudging... say for instance you had an
oversized
plastic J box underground with very carefully bolted
connections, then those painted with insulating sealant,
say 3
or 4 coats, then that wrapped in rubber tape about 1/8"
thick... then the J box filled with urethane roof sealant
(dries like tire rubber), then the water tight lid
applied...
cement bulkheads poured at each side of the box so it
couldnt
move or break at the conduit connections... well some
guys
might call that safe enough for govt work. But it
wouldn't
be legal. A short though would go directly to ground in
virtually all cases...so there are much worse actual
hazards
in the world... a red head could move in next door for
instance.

If it were in well drained ground, not prone to getting
muddy
it might be a lot closer to OK.. If it were in muddy
ground
with loads driving over it... it would not be ones
slickest
move.

You have to scratch your ass and figure these things
out....
sometimes I burp too. that helps.

The NEC code is part of the fire code... over heated wire,
shorts where they can cause a fire or go to ground though
a
person are the primary issues... When you are
underground
the fire hazard all but dissapears, same with the shock
hazard...unless someone digs into it etc.

In your case, and wire being relatively cheap, Id install
separate runs on your job... if the ground is muddy or
freezes, Id go deeper than the NEC requires, Id use
schedule
80 pvc conduit regardless. put a few long radius glued
bends
in it so it can expand and contract without stress, be
sure
its in sand on the bottom and a few inches of sand on top,
40 years down the road the next owner is going to love you
for
it. To make it easier on yourself, go one size larger on
the
conduit than required as well....so the wire will pull
easier.
Or you can bury the cable direct with no conduit below 32
inches... some people then lay redwood boards over the top
and
yellow plastic marking tape so that if anyone digs there
later
they will hit the boards and the tape as a warning. That
saves you the work of putting in the conduit and a long
wire
pull. If the wire goes under a drive way or road you may
want to slide a schedule 80 pvc section of pipe over that
part
of the run... bury it a little deeper there as well...and
maybe even pour some concrete over the top, 3" or so with
a
little rebar in it. All that exceeds the NEC...but
remember
the NEC and all of these codes are *minumum requirements
and
are sure not best practice in all cases.


As I get older, I find that doing a job to world class
standards or better gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
..its satisfying... Im also finding that it doesnt take
much
more effort in most cases.






Phil Scott








So I chose conduit thinking that was
the 'tried-and-proven' standard method of laying
underground
cable. I now
see I got it wrong. Well, the cable hasn't been tied in
to
the power yet
(decided to wait until I can get the cash to hire a
licensed
electrician for
the inside-of-house wiring --mainly for insurance
reasons).
Guess I'll be
pulling out all the romex (as well as the
single-strand-wires) from the
conduit and replacing with underground-rated cable then.
I
have junction
boxes underground too where power gets split to serve two
separate
destinations. (The rubber-sealed junction box covers, I
had
reinforced with
silicone sealant --but come to think of it, silicone does
in
time lose some
of its effectiveness), Guess I'll have to modify the
cable
layout scheme,
in order to serve all of the separate power destinations,
without those
junctions...


Danger, fogey story...

Used to work w/ online coal analyzers at mines, prep
plants, etc. Had
location at mine in KY where they pulled the high
voltage
signal power
cable (2.4kV) and had to go from the control shack
where
the
electronics/computer were housed across a truck
crossing
to the analyzer
mounted on the beltline. That installation was the
mine's
responsibility, wasn't around when they did it.
Installed
the unit,
brought it up, calibrated it, watched for a few hours,
went home...two
weeks later, get call...it's not operating. Drive up,
discover HV cable
shorted. Hood up the spare (we did require a spare be
pulled in the
specs), it worked, calibrated, watched, went home.
Within
six months
second failed...turned out they had buried the cables
in
conduit and it
filled w/ water. HV instrumentation cable isn't
designed
for water
immersion and water also got inside the insulation.
Didn't help they
had pulled the cable through the conduit by hooking it
to
a front end
loader when they couldn't pull it by hand , but that
was
secondary...

They pulled with wire through with a front loader?! LOL!
Now that's a case
of applying too much 'brawn', as it were, and not enough
brain. Why didn't
they just use an approved lubricant and avoid stretching
(if
not the risk of
breaking) the cable? (Don't try to answer. I'm sure you
wondered the same
thing.)


Thanks,

Guest987

If you are going to pull individual wires through conduit, the hard
part is to pull the wires through without nicking the insulalation. If
you nick the insulaiton at all, even a little, the moisture that will
be inside the conduit will eventually corrode the wire and it will fail
open. For this reason, if its a do it yourself job, I think you are
better off use direct burial romex inside an oversized unsealed PVC
pipe for physical protection. Maybe even drill holes in the PVC to let
the water out.

Mark

Mark posted for all of us....


If you are going to pull individual wires through conduit, the hard
part is to pull the wires through without nicking the insulalation. If
you nick the insulaiton at all, even a little, the moisture that will
be inside the conduit will eventually corrode the wire and it will fail

Whatttttttttt?
open. For this reason, if its a do it yourself job, I think you are
better off use direct burial romex inside an oversized unsealed PVC
pipe for physical protection. Maybe even drill holes in the PVC to let
the water out.

Let the water in! And weaken the pipe.

Mark


Hey, where did you get this from???
--
Tekkie