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Mr. Bill
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

Hi all,

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:

House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.

Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.

House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.

So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?

I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.

Thanks much.
  #2   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

According to Mr. Bill :

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:


House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.


Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.


House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.


So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?


It's still fairly common to use aluminum wiring on high amperage circuits.
Much more common with main and subpanel feeds, it's occasionally
seen on stoves or dryers too.

[Note, as far as I am aware, the Canadian CEC doesn't actually ban aluminum
even with 15A/20A circuits, but given the concerns about it, few people
will accept it, and some municipalities (ie: ours) add in code-overrides
telling you can't use aluminum without prior approval from an inspector.
This may apply to the US NEC also.]

It's safe enough because the connections at larger sizes are more
forgiving, and since there's so few of them, the installer is
more likely to spend the time to do it correctly.

Most problems with aluminum are on 15A/20A circuits (eg: general
outlet and lighting strings) especially when the installer uses
improper (often very cheap copper-only) outlets and/or push-in
terminals. Both of which have always been against code for aluminum.

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?


I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.


The most common way to do this is with split bolts (make sure they're
rated for copper-to-aluminum and the wire sizes in question), anti-oxidant
paste, and tape.

Probably best to obtain the materials from an electrical supplier
where you can ask questions on how to use them, but you should find
it relatively straightforward.

You may have difficulty shoving all this into the box tho. Good luck.

Consider yourself lucky that the existing cable is already 4-wire. The
1996 NEC amendments would probably require you to upgrade a 3-wire stove
connection to 4-wire if you're extending it.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #3   Report Post  
volts500
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring


"Mr. Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:

House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.

Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.

House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.

So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?

I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.

Thanks much.


Polaris: http://www.polarisconnectors.com/companyinfo.html
Ilsco Nimbus connectors :http://www.ilsco.com/
Similar connectors are usually available at Home Depot.


  #4   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring


"Mr. Bill" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:

House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.

Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.

House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.

So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?

I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.

Thanks much.


This is Turtle.

Chris explained the changing over but i suggest that you stay with the same wire types and just run all AL. and use a juction box
and keep all the wire the same to not convert over. Just a thought.

TURTLE


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  #5   Report Post  
zxcvbob
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

Mr. Bill wrote:

Hi all,

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:

House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.

Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.

House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.

So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?

I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.

Thanks much.


Aluminum works great for stoves and feeder circuits. It's just a little
harder to install properly, and generally only worth the trouble for
long-run high-amperage circuits.

Look for split bolt connectors that are stamped "AL9CU". You can use
AL9CU connectors for aluminum-to-aluminum or aluminum-to-copper splices.
Use a deoxidizer black goop on the freshly stripped aluminum wire
ends, and wrap the splices with electrical tape. I like to rewrap them
with friction tape because it doesn't come loose, and even really good
electrical tape can come loose on the ends if any black goop gets to the
adhesive.

I don't know if friction tape is considered adequate insulation all by
itself unless there's vinyl or rubber tape under it.

Bob


  #6   Report Post  
Mr. Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

Chris,

Thanks for the help. Now for 2 stupid questions:

1) Am I correct in assuming that 3 insulated conductors (black, black
& light gray) plus bare ground is a 4 wire cable?

2) The 2 black conductors are the hot leads and the light gray is the
neutral for the 240/120, right?

Thanks much.



(Chris Lewis) wrote in message ...
According to Mr. Bill :

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:


House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.


Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.


House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.


So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?


It's still fairly common to use aluminum wiring on high amperage circuits.
Much more common with main and subpanel feeds, it's occasionally
seen on stoves or dryers too.

[Note, as far as I am aware, the Canadian CEC doesn't actually ban aluminum
even with 15A/20A circuits, but given the concerns about it, few people
will accept it, and some municipalities (ie: ours) add in code-overrides
telling you can't use aluminum without prior approval from an inspector.
This may apply to the US NEC also.]

It's safe enough because the connections at larger sizes are more
forgiving, and since there's so few of them, the installer is
more likely to spend the time to do it correctly.

Most problems with aluminum are on 15A/20A circuits (eg: general
outlet and lighting strings) especially when the installer uses
improper (often very cheap copper-only) outlets and/or push-in
terminals. Both of which have always been against code for aluminum.

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?


I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.


The most common way to do this is with split bolts (make sure they're
rated for copper-to-aluminum and the wire sizes in question), anti-oxidant
paste, and tape.

Probably best to obtain the materials from an electrical supplier
where you can ask questions on how to use them, but you should find
it relatively straightforward.

You may have difficulty shoving all this into the box tho. Good luck.

Consider yourself lucky that the existing cable is already 4-wire. The
1996 NEC amendments would probably require you to upgrade a 3-wire stove
connection to 4-wire if you're extending it.

  #7   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

According to TURTLE :

Chris explained the changing over but i suggest that you stay with the same wire types and just run all AL. and use a juction box
and keep all the wire the same to not convert over. Just a thought.


As I understood the OP, the splice would be made in the stove's
old electrical box used as a junction box. As that's probably
a standard 4" square box, it'll actually be bigger than a standard
J box.

Splicing aluminum-to-aluminum is effectively the same as splicing copper
to aluminum (proper clamps, antioxidant grease et. al.).

[Even aluminum-to-aluminum doesn't allow him to use wirenuts I don't
think. Only copper-to-copper splicing would.]

At best the OP'd potentially save a few dollars (in wire cost) at
the expense of having the splice harder to do (stuff in stiffer/thicker
wire), and the extension wire harder to find.

So, I don't think the OP would gain anything useful by extending the
circuit with aluminum.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #8   Report Post  
HRL
 
Posts: n/a
Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

wrote:
On 2 May 2004 21:42:49 -0700,
(Mr. Bill) wrote:


Hi all,

I am remodeling my kitchen. I need to move the wiring for my range
and I found oday that the wiring is aluminum. Here are the details:

House built in California in 1992. All of the wiring except to the
range is copper.

Range wiring #6 aluminum, 3 conductors + gruond. All stranded. 2
conductors black, one gray, grounde bare, breakers 50amp.

House is 2-story with kitchen downstairs and range wiring between
truss web.

So, What's up with aluminum wiring in 1992?

More important, I need to attach about 20' of wire to get to the
rannge location. What sort of connector is approved for this?

I would like to use a new copper cable, but I want to know what type
of connector to use. I know about the connection being in a box and
accessible, etc. I just want to make the coppper/aluminum connection
right.

Thanks much.




By the time you buy connectors and such, why not just replace the
whole cable all the way to the breaker box, and know you are safe. I
was never fond of splicing high amperage cable, even if they are all
copper. At a little over $1 per foot, isn't it worth knowing you are
safe? Most likely less work too....

I have a similar problem. All I would need to do is tear rip open
about 40 feet of wall board. I think that might be a little more
expensive and work. I assume he has the same situation. Unless we laid
it undergound along the foundation.
  #9   Report Post  
TURTLE
 
Posts: n/a
Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ...
According to TURTLE :

Chris explained the changing over but i suggest that you stay with the same wire types and just run all AL. and use a juction

box
and keep all the wire the same to not convert over. Just a thought.


As I understood the OP, the splice would be made in the stove's
old electrical box used as a junction box. As that's probably
a standard 4" square box, it'll actually be bigger than a standard
J box.

Splicing aluminum-to-aluminum is effectively the same as splicing copper
to aluminum (proper clamps, antioxidant grease et. al.).

[Even aluminum-to-aluminum doesn't allow him to use wirenuts I don't
think. Only copper-to-copper splicing would.]

At best the OP'd potentially save a few dollars (in wire cost) at
the expense of having the splice harder to do (stuff in stiffer/thicker
wire), and the extension wire harder to find.

So, I don't think the OP would gain anything useful by extending the
circuit with aluminum.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.


This is Turtle.

It seem here you feel like just talking about something that does not make any difference.

TURTLE


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Chris Lewis
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

According to TURTLE :
So, I don't think the OP would gain anything useful by extending the
circuit with aluminum.


This is Turtle.


It seem here you feel like just talking about something that does not make any difference.


It does make a difference:

- It'll be harder to accomplish (stuffing the thicker/stiffer
wire into the box).
- It increases the number of aluminum connections in the circuit and
attendant "be very careful" (ie: nicks, kinks) requirements.
Which many would prefer to avoid.
- Probably be harder to find the wire, and may be more expensive
(if you have to buy predetermined lengths from an electrical
supplier rather than a generic DIY outlet).

If he has aluminum wire already and he can get the splices into the box,
then, sure, fine, go ahead.

But I _personally_ wouldn't spending _more_ effort (and possibly money)
implementing an inferior solution. A superior result with _less_ effort
(especially when there's minimal cost disadvantage at _best_) sounds like
a better plan to me.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.


  #11   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

According to Mr. Bill :
Chris,


Thanks for the help. Now for 2 stupid questions:


1) Am I correct in assuming that 3 insulated conductors (black, black
& light gray) plus bare ground is a 4 wire cable?


2) The 2 black conductors are the hot leads and the light gray is the
neutral for the 240/120, right?


The answers to both questions are "yes" - _if_ the installer complied
with code. The probability is very high that they did, but it wouldn't
hurt to visually check the panel end of the circuit. The two black wires
should connect to a pair of breakers[+]. The grey wire should be bolted onto
a terminal block with other grey or white wires. The bare wire should
similarly be bolted onto a terminal block with other bare wires.

The "block" shouldn't really be common to both bare and white wires,
but often is - no big deal in a main panel. In a main panel, the
"two blocks" are connected together anyway.

You can test it with a voltmeter too, but visual inspection is probably
more useful in this context. The cable should be easy to identify -
it will be larger than any other cable in the panel (except for the
main feed or possibly a subpanel or an appliance that draws even
more power than the stove - like an electric forced-air furnace
or heat pump with electric heater strips).

[+] the breakers should be tiebarred together.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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TURTLE
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ...
According to TURTLE :
So, I don't think the OP would gain anything useful by extending the
circuit with aluminum.


This is Turtle.


It seem here you feel like just talking about something that does not make any difference.


It does make a difference:

- It'll be harder to accomplish (stuffing the thicker/stiffer
wire into the box).
- It increases the number of aluminum connections in the circuit and
attendant "be very careful" (ie: nicks, kinks) requirements.
Which many would prefer to avoid.
- Probably be harder to find the wire, and may be more expensive
(if you have to buy predetermined lengths from an electrical
supplier rather than a generic DIY outlet).

If he has aluminum wire already and he can get the splices into the box,
then, sure, fine, go ahead.

But I _personally_ wouldn't spending _more_ effort (and possibly money)
implementing an inferior solution. A superior result with _less_ effort
(especially when there's minimal cost disadvantage at _best_) sounds like
a better plan to me.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.


this is Turtle.

i work with all types of wire and some 4/0 or so and when it comes to a #6 or #8 Al wire. they are real easy to work with. I would
never have thought about not being able to get Al wire at the warehouses.

TURTLE


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  #13   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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Default connecting aluminum to copper wiring

According to TURTLE :

i work with all types of wire and some 4/0 or so


So do I, but not nearly as much as you.

and when it comes to a
#6 or #8 Al wire. they are real easy to work with. I would
never have thought about not being able to get Al wire at the warehouses.


Sometimes the pros forget the DIYer experience.

The typical DIYer rarely handles anything larger than #12 copper, and
will often find #8 copper a bit of a struggle, even when all they're
doing is direct connecting to screw terminals on stove/dryer receptacles
and pulling it through holes in studs and joists.

I remember my first exposure to pulling #8 Cu in a crawlspace well...
and not so fondly...

I shudder to think of what most DIYers will encounter trying to stuff 4
split-bolted, taped and gooped #6 Al splices into a regular-sized stove
receptacle box in a workmanlike manner. The technique and materials are
unfamiliar - they're simply not used to it.

Getting half of the wires down to #8 copper, and getting the cable a
little easier to pull is bound to make a significant difference for most
DIYers.[+]

Al isn't banned here ("prior approval only" on municipal permits). Yet,
I have yet to see _any_ DIY/builder warehouse[*] or hardware store
stocking #6 Al here - indeed, _any_ size Al for that matter... While
there probably are places here where you can get the cut lengths from
rolls here, it'd be special order even in most electrical supply
outlets.

For the most part, Al use is limited to electricians wiring lots of
houses, where the cost savings (buying multiple rolls) makes a
significant difference. For a homeowner extending a circuit a dozen
feet or two, a few bucks difference (at best) isn't going to make up for
the inconvenience of finding the stuff and installing it. You may
find you spend more money on gas just getting the stuff.

[+] while of course this is somewhat larger, when my professional
electrician friend installed a #4-#3 copper-Al splice for my 100A subpanel
feed, the box he used was at least 3"x4"x6" - 2-3 times the volume of a
typical stove receptacle box. From what I call from observing him, I
wouldn't have wanted to try anything smaller myself, tho, he could have
managed it I'm sure. [The splice was because the ganged 100A breaker he
gave me from his "used parts box" wasn't rated for Al, but using Al for
the 120' feed saved something like $200 over copper.]
[*] Ie: HomeDepot or Rona (Rona is HD's primary competition in Canada).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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