On 09/22/2017 08:21 PM, Xeno wrote:
The clutch alignment tool does not need to have splines. That said, most
people of my acquaintance keep on hand a swag of transmission input
shafts from trans rebuild jobs. Ask about the possibility of securing
one of these at a trans place near you. Alternatively, I have had
success building a shaft that is too small up to size using humble old
plastic electrical insulation tape. Did that on the tractor I recently
changed a clutch on since we didn't have the exact dummy pilot shaft we
needed, and it worked perfectly. Necessity is the mother of invention,
not to mention cost savings.

At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of
interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered
guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very
inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got
was $3 or $4.

On 23/09/2017 2:46 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/22/2017 08:21 PM, Xeno wrote:
The clutch alignment tool does not need to have splines. That said, most
people of my acquaintance keep on hand a swag of transmission input
shafts from trans rebuild jobs. Ask about the possibility of securing
one of these at a trans place near you. Alternatively, I have had
success building a shaft that is too small up to size using humble old
plastic electrical insulation tape. Did that on the tractor I recently
changed a clutch on since we didn't have the exact dummy pilot shaft we
needed, and it worked perfectly. Necessity is the mother of invention,
not to mention cost savings.

At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of
interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered
guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very
inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got
was $3 or $4.

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

--

Xeno

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:44:43 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Most engines that I've come across are not "parallel to the garage
floor". In fact, most are inclined at a slight downward angle. There are
reasons for this and it has to do with driveshaft alignment. More likely
to be horizontal if the vehicle has a triple jointed driveshaft.

I may very well have been wrong when I said that the transmission seems to
be parallel to the garage floor.

When I align the transmission jack, based on what you just said, I will
plan to be tilted a few degrees such that the rear is lower than the front
then.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:

. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines)

Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt.

Thanks. I appreciate your advice because most of the DIYs I read were just
words, where the words meant something only to someone who has already done
it.

For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts.
The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were
no bolts.

I added an empty spot for the pressure plate bolt torque, which I will fill
in when found!

Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free
play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play,
then release play.

I admit, the whole "clutch pedal adjustment" procedure is a fog to me at
the moment. I can only distinguish, when pressing a clutch pedal, the
distance that nothing happens, versus the distance that something happens.

Some systems work on zero free play at the release
bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic
systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder
end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics.

I need to study that further to understand it better.

No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend
to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance.

That is a good point that I don't know what to look for.
In the case of the DIYs, everyone shows a picture of a chewed-up clutch,
but I'm expecting to replace the clutch, so that won't matter much.

Also most expect to resurface the flywheel.
And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot.
And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal".

I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace.
In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is
essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on
time and miles).

No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same.

I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease.

. It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn)
Top gear always.

The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's
already removed from the vehicle?

Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there
on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism?

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 22:46:09 -0600, rbowman wrote:

At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of
interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered
guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very
inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got
was $3 or $4.

I have to openly admit I don't understand this step.
None of the DIYs referenced show HOW to do this step.
So it's just something I wrote - but it means as much to me as it would to
a fifth grader.

I can imagine that there is a shaft that has long "grooves" in it that has
to fit into "something" that has correspondingly long "opposite grooves" in
it.

But I don't have any feel for why a special "tool" is needed to get the two
sets of matching grooves to line up. I haven't seen any pictures of that
yet nor videos. So it's just words to me at the moment and not an image in
my mind.

On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:44:43 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Most engines that I've come across are not "parallel to the garage
floor". In fact, most are inclined at a slight downward angle. There are
reasons for this and it has to do with driveshaft alignment. More likely
to be horizontal if the vehicle has a triple jointed driveshaft.

I may very well have been wrong when I said that the transmission seems to
be parallel to the garage floor.

When I align the transmission jack, based on what you just said, I will
plan to be tilted a few degrees such that the rear is lower than the front
then.

Another point worth noting. When you are ready to remove the trans, and
have removed the rear cross member and associated mounts, you often need
to lower the rear of the gearbox down in order to either get clearance
to undo the top bell housing bolts or to get clear of the trans tunnel
when removing the gearbox. That means your trans adapter needs to
accommodate the basic tilt angle plus the extended tilt angle after the
rear of the trans has been lowered to accommodate removal.

Which is why an adapter with a 5 degree angle doesn't cut it.

--

Xeno

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 19:49:06 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Another point worth noting. When you are ready to remove the trans, and
have removed the rear cross member ...

Just a side point which is that in the DIYs I looked at (Tundra, for
example), the cross member was bolted but in my Toyota (4Runner) it is
welded so the cross member isn't going anywhere.

and associated mounts, you often need
to lower the rear of the gearbox down in order to either get clearance
to undo the top bell housing bolts or to get clear of the trans tunnel
when removing the gearbox. That means your trans adapter needs to
accommodate the basic tilt angle plus the extended tilt angle after the
rear of the trans has been lowered to accommodate removal.

Which is why an adapter with a 5 degree angle doesn't cut it.

I understand and I appreciate that you (and someone else) already said that
5 degrees is not going to cut the mustard.

I think I will aim for 20 degrees minimum.
A friend is coming over this weekend who will give me gratis his boxed
unopened HF motorcycle lift. He bought it and never used it and then
crashed the bike. So he doesn't need it.

We'll assemble it and see if it does the trick.
If not, then I will definitely get either the saddle or the transmission
jack where I will seek out 20 degrees or more.

Nobody said yet though if we need that in all three directions
.. front
.. back
.. side

I suspect only front-and-back is required but I ask because now is the time
to ask (before I buy it).

On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?

You either need a very good eye - or be very good with god.
Most people, in my experience anyhow, seem good with neither.

I have aligned clutch plates by eye in the past, and been successful,
but I have a good eye for such things. Most people do not. Hence the
need for a clutch aligning tool.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Ii1ukGkfijY/Sq...jpg?imgmax=800

In the picture link above, observe the right hand diagram. It shows the
gearbox mounted up and the input shaft passing through the clutch plate
and entering the spigot bush. The plate faces are clamped to the
flywheel by the pressure plate. When you release that clutch, the plate
comes free of the faces but is still on the input shaft. So it stays
there but spinning freely.
Now refer to the left hand diagram. When you are installing the clutch
and pressure plate, that is what you will have - no gearbox hence no
input shaft. The input shaft will be sitting on the floor still attached
to the gearbox. Not a lot of use there when you need it to align that
plate into the correct central location during installation. That's why
you need a *dummy shaft*. A clutch aligning tool is nothing more than a
dummy shaft that you can use temporarily as a substitute for that input
shaft while fitting up the clutch and pressure plate to the flywheel.
In short, the exact centre of the clutch plate needs to be aligned
exactly with the centre of the spigot bush. The dummy shaft ensures that
alignment exists as you tighten the pressure plate bolts.
If you fail to align the two, and it only needs to be a poofteenth of a
millifart out, when you insert the input shaft (still attached to the
gearbox, remember), you will get it up to and onto the spline - possibly
- but the nose of the shaft may not be able to go the next step - enter
the spigot shaft bush. This is simply because of misalignment. If, for
any reason, you drop the rear end of the gearbox down whilst the input
shaft is partially on the clutch plate splines but not in the spigot
bush, you run the real risk of distorting the clutch plate after which
it will be stuffed. A distorted clutch plate will fail to release
cleanly - or at all.

You can get the exact tool for your vehicle that looks like this;
https://frsport.com/images/detailed_...00_FG02-01.jpg

Note how it looks just like a gearbox input shaft.

Or a universal tool like this one;
http://www.toolsinstock.com/admin/images/0314.jpg

I prefer this type if I am going for a universal type.
https://i.frg.im/Srp6lau/121048656058-0_600.jpg
The top row of adapters is meant to fit the different internal diameters
of the clutch plate spline. The bottom row of adapters is meant to fit
the spigot bearing.

Alignment is everything. It's also why your jack needs a lot more *tilt
angle* than you think.




--

Xeno

On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:

. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines)

Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt.

Thanks. I appreciate your advice because most of the DIYs I read were just
words, where the words meant something only to someone who has already done
it.

I once did the RTFM bit. Problem was, the manual I had, an aftermarket
one and not a factory shop manual, had the torques for the flywheel
bolts mixed up with the pressure plate bolt torques. 28 ft/lb on half
inch flywheel bolts and 65 ft/lbs on 5/16th" pressure plate bolts just
did not sound logical. So I reversed them. That's trade experience.

Never assume. Bolts have torques that are relative to their size, the
thread form, the material of which they are made, the material they are
clamping, and the presence of gaskets. After decades in the trade,
something that defies logic literally jumps out at you - even misprints
in books.

For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts.
The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were
no bolts.

In this, as with everything mechanical, make no assumptions. RTFM.
Preferably a factory manual. Must make a note here. Most factory
workshop manuals make one major assumption - that the people using them
are tradesmen and are familiar with all the basics. Ergo, they skip a
lot of the basic stuff. The aftermarket ones are designed for the novice
and, as such, they give step by step procedures. My issue with them is
they lack the depth *I* require.

I added an empty spot for the pressure plate bolt torque, which I will fill
in when found!

Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free
play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play,
then release play.

I admit, the whole "clutch pedal adjustment" procedure is a fog to me at
the moment. I can only distinguish, when pressing a clutch pedal, the
distance that nothing happens, versus the distance that something happens.

There are three *distances*. There is the distance where absolutely
nothing happens but the take up of the free play between the clutch
pedal and the MC piston. You are working against the pedal return spring
here.
The next take up distance, with very slightly more force required, is
the free play between the release bearing and the pressure plate
fingers. The actual force you are acting against, apart from a miniscule
amount of hydraulic resistance, is the force of the clutch release fork
return spring.
From that point right down to the end of pedal travel, you are acting
against the diaphragm spring in the actual pressure plate.
A little extra here. The diaphragm spring works differently to, say, a
coil spring. A coil spring continually increases its resistance as the
spring is compressed. A diaphragm spring, on the other hand, has the
highest resistance at the start and at the midway point of its
compression, becomes easier to compress. Less force required to go from
the halfway point to the bottom of travel. The bonus of this *feature*
is that the clutch is much easier to hold when the pedal is to the
floor. Women love this feature.

Some systems work on zero free play at the release
bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic
systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder
end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics.

I need to study that further to understand it better.

All you need to know on that score is that the piston in the master
cylinder needs to come right back to its stop, which is usually a
circlip. A small amount of free play between the piston and the pedal
push rod *ensures* that the piston can fully return.

No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend
to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance.

That is a good point that I don't know what to look for.

Indeed, a very good point.

In the case of the DIYs, everyone shows a picture of a chewed-up clutch,
but I'm expecting to replace the clutch, so that won't matter much.

Also most expect to resurface the flywheel.

It might not need replacement or resurfacing. If it is flat, not gouged,
no signs of heat marks, no fine cracking, you should be Ok to use it.
Heat marks, for an example, are a judgemental thing.

And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot.

Always. They are a pita to replace by themselves if they fail later.
Replace the lot while you have it apart.

And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal".

Some you can, some you cannot *easily* replace in situ.

I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace.
In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is
essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on
time and miles).

No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same.

I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease.

In the good old days, clutch plates were made of that wonderful
substance known popularly as *asbestos*. Now, in these more enlightened
times people have become aware of the dangers of asbestos. That does not
mean that your car may not have asbestos in the clutch plate. Older
vehicles may still have some asbestos. Never assume they don't. What's
more, a lot of people buy cheap Chinese made clutch replacement kits.
Some of the kits are manufactured by some less than scrupulous companies
and *still* contain asbestos. If your vehicle has has a clutch
replacement in the past, it may contain asbestos. Never assume it doesn't.
That means you *Do Not Use An Air Pistol* to blow out the clutch dust.
Think of cleaning brake shoes, pads, etc and use the same techniques -
always wet to keep any dust suppressed. Have a look at a few video clips
on cleaning brakes to get an idea of the path you should follow.
This stuff;
https://www.crcindustries.com.au/pro...-parts-cleaner
Is good for cleaning out the clutch housing, the back of the engine,
flywheel area, etc. Note, it leaves no residue.

When you get your new bits, and I advise getting a complete clutch kit
which includes pressure plate, you need to know what to clean, and just
as importantly, what *not to clean*. In the case of the *new* pressure
plate, it will be pre-lubed and will have a coating of preservative to
prevent rust. Do not under any circumstances dunk the whole unit in
cleaning fluid. Only clean off the clutch face with a suitable cleaning
solvent. A suitable cleaning solvent is any solvent that does not leave
an oily residue. Or any residue for that matter. This should be clearly
stated in the instructions that come with the clutch kit. If you use the
brakleen mentioned above, do not spray the pressure plate. Spray onto a
rag and use that to clean just the clutch face area of the pressure
plate. Again, follow any instructions that come with the clutch kit.


. It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn)
Top gear always.

The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's
already removed from the vehicle?

Use the lever(s), either on the side of the trans or the main change
lever. If you have removed the main gear change lever, and it's likely
you will need to, you can usually poke down in the hole and manually
select a gear using a large screwdriver of the like. Or temporarily
reinsert the lever.

Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there
on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism?

I have never had much of an issue doing that.

--

Xeno

On 23/09/2017 6:39 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 22:46:09 -0600, rbowman wrote:

At one time I had a generic alignment tool. It had a number of
interchangeable ends for the various pilot bearing sizes, and a tapered
guide to fit various sizes of clutch bores. However they now have very
inexpensive plastic tools for most popular vehicles. iirc the one I got
was $3 or $4.

I have to openly admit I don't understand this step.
None of the DIYs referenced show HOW to do this step.
So it's just something I wrote - but it means as much to me as it would to
a fifth grader.

It really is a case of *I see, I know, I do and I understand*. What you
need to get your head around is the relationship between the flywheel,
the clutch plate and the pressure plate. Sectioned views of a clutch in
operation will help a lot here.

Like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b08UA-c0cuc

Note, it shows the pressure plate bolts. Bonus! ;-)

Observe what happens to the clutch plate when the clutch pedal is
depressed. It is no longer clamped between the pressure plate and the
flywheel. It is on the splined input shaft however so is still correctly
located and, more importantly, centred. What would happen if the input
shaft wasn't there? Nothing to centre the clutch plate. That is the
situation you face when you are bolting the pressure plate up to the
flywheel with the clutch plate sandwiched in between. A dummy shaft or
an alignment tool can hold the clutch plate in the exact correct
alignment while you fit up and bolt down the pressure plate. When it's
in the exact centre, you will have no trouble fitting up the gearbox
with its input shaft.

I can imagine that there is a shaft that has long "grooves" in it that has
to fit into "something" that has correspondingly long "opposite grooves" in
it.

Yes, it can indeed be like that - but it doesn't need to be.

But I don't have any feel for why a special "tool" is needed to get the two
sets of matching grooves to line up. I haven't seen any pictures of that
yet nor videos. So it's just words to me at the moment and not an image in
my mind.

The alignment tool comes with the gearbox. It is the input shaft and the
issue arises that it is an *integral part of the gearbox* and attached
rather firmly to it. You need a *temporary input shaft* when assembling
the clutch and pressure plate. That is all the alignment tool is.

--

Xeno

On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?


Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too.

On 24/09/2017 12:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment
tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?


Without it you curse a lot.Â* You may need blood pressure medication too.

True that!

--

Xeno

In rec.autos.tech Stormin' Norman wrote:
The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the
flywheel.

I REALLY don't think so. Hint: no splines on the flywheel.

The clutch disk has to line up with the pilot bearing.

On 09/23/2017 02:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?


You need something to hold the clutch plate in the correct position as
you bolt on the pressure plate.

http://www.autozone.com/drivetrain/c...toyota/4runner

The small end inserts into the pilot bushing/bearing on the end of the
crankshaft and the splines engage the clutch splines. The pressure plate
has the screws and often dowels to position it, but the clutch plate
itself is free floating at that point in the assemble. If the splines
and the pilot bushing aren't concentric the transmission shaft isn't
going to slide into place.

For $3 you want one rather than trying to eyeball the alignment as you
hold the pressure plate in position and get the screws started.

btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a
matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the
pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'.

On 09/23/2017 08:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2017 4:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 15:08:54 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

We had such a generic alignment tool available. The issue was that it
didn't handle the dual clutch system on the tractor at all well. The
local dealer didn't have a *factory one* for the tractor but he lent us
one he'd made up on a lathe. It wasn't a firm fit however, hence the
need to pack it up with tape. Coupled with 4 alignment dowels, made out
of bolts with heads removed, fitted into the block, the mating up
process was the smoothest I'd ever encountered.

What I don't understand, since I don't even know why this "alignment
tool"
is needed, is what happens if I don't have this special alignment tool?


Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too.

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

On 09/23/2017 04:18 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
A friend is coming over this weekend who will give me gratis his boxed
unopened HF motorcycle lift. He bought it and never used it and then
crashed the bike. So he doesn't need it.


I don't know exactly what HF's bike jack looks like but while mine would
work and has plenty of support for a transmission you'd need at least
14" under any part of the undercarriage to get it in place.

On 09/23/2017 02:39 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts.
The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were
no bolts.

No, there are a number of them. Both removing and replacing them, you
want to work your way around evenly rather than removing them one by
one. The default position for a clutch is engaged so there will be
considerable spring pressure. The screws themselves aren't big, usually
in the 1/4 - 5/16 range so it won't be a lot of torque.

Also most expect to resurface the flywheel.
And most expect to replace the two "bearings", the throwout & pilot.
And they expect to replace the "rear engine seal".

From you description the clutch probably has quite a bit of life left
and hasn't started tear things up yet.The flywheel surface may not be as
smooth as a baby's but but don't get too excited by minor wear.

Unless Toyota did something really strange, the throwout bearing is a
loose fit on the transmission nose and it held in place by the fork on
the lever. The pilot bushing usually requires a puller and driver to
seat the new one. I've seated bushings with old pipe fittings or
whatever else was laying around but sometimes it isn't too pretty if
it's a tight press fit.

Don't worry about the rear seal unless you see obvious leakage. With
some engines that can turn into a whole other project.

I'm not sure of what else that people routinely inspect to replace.
In my case, I'm not expecting any "damage" since the transmission is
essentially working fine (the clutch is merely "due" for a change based on
time and miles).

My pickup is 30 years old and had close to 200K miles when I replaced
the clutch. My real task was replacing the throwout bearing. The OEM
design was cast iron and would start to hang up; the latest one is
polymer and seems to work better. Anyway I did the clutch and pressure
plate while I was there and iirc it was only about $50 for the pair.
They didn't need replacing.

otoh, I had a Dodge pickup that had had a hard life. The clutch was
slipping, no question but it came by the wear honestly hauling more than
a 1/2 ton truck should. A couple of my cars suffered from my driving
style when I was a kid. As my father told me "If you're going to drive
like that you'd better get good at fixing stuff."

Anyway, there's no 'due' for clutches in general. After I grew up, or at
least got older, I stopped having clutch problems



No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same.
I'm not sure what 'cleaning' is needed other than wiping off old grease.

. It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn)
Top gear always.
The thing I didn't get is how I'm supposed to put it in gear when it's
already removed from the vehicle?

Is it easy to put a transmission in top gear when it's just sitting there
on the garage floor without a shifter mechanism?

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:



No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend
to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance.

This video seems to have a lot of hints about what to look for:
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg

No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same.

For example, at time 282 seconds, they cover cleaning the friction surface:
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=282

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:22:15 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too.

Is this very first second of this video showing the alignment tool in
action? https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E

It seems to take a split second, but the video is artificially sped up.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the
flywheel.

When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held
very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will
likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft
through the clutch disc and into the flywheel.

Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step.

As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red
centering tool already in place!
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331

That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool.
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans
mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here.

This video, at time 92 seconds, says what you say, which is that the
"crankshaft and topshaft" must be aligned "along the same axis".
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=92

They show that procedure of aligning the two shafts at time 409 seconds:
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=409

. Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side
. Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???)

Depends on how strong/old you are.

This video, at time 62 seconds, shows a guy wrestling a Toyota transmission
up but then using a regular floor jack to hold it there (but he has to
adjust it a lot).
https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E?t=62

On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'.


I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-)

https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710

https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free
play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play,
then release play. Some systems work on zero free play at the release
bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic
systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder
end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics.

Thanks for that information where I noticed that this video, at time 213
seconds, shows me what I think you're trying to tell me about the "release
bearing" play:
https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=213

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

Additional hints: always replace the throwout bearing,

The videos are instrumental for me to visualize what you're saying, as this
one, for example, at time 195 seconds, shows that throwout bearing (aka
release bearing) in action.
https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=195

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2".

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 11:10:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

For example, I didn't even know the pressure plate had bolts.
The DIYs I found just said "remove pressure plate" so I assumed there were
no bolts.

No, there are a number of them. Both removing and replacing them, you
want to work your way around evenly rather than removing them one by
one. The default position for a clutch is engaged so there will be
considerable spring pressure. The screws themselves aren't big, usually
in the 1/4 - 5/16 range so it won't be a lot of torque.

I see the bolt holes in this pressure plate at time 91 seconds:
https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=91

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:57:38 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

I REALLY don't think so. Hint: no splines on the flywheel.

The clutch disk has to line up with the pilot bearing.

Yes, you are of course correct, I made an error about spline on the
flywheel. Brainfart.

This seems to show exactly what you're talking about at time 142 seconds:
https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=142

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:05:18 -0400, Ed wrote:

I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the standard naming convention is "screwed" up.* ;-)

https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710

https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~

Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching
threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads).

I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the
material (often with a sharp point).

Bolts generally have hex heads (for sockets) but not always.
Screws generally have screwdriver notches but not always.

The difference is, to me, in two things mainly:
.. The angle of the threads (screw threads are steeper)
.. The mating material (screws make their own mating threads)

I might be wrong though as I don't follow the McMaster definition exactly.

On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2".


Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 09/23/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2".


Work on cars long enough and you figure they're all Christine's
siblings. I had a '60 Plymouth that I'm certain was a relative. It
started as a pushbutton Torqueflite and ended up as a floor shift
manual. That's when I learned about endless projects. Among other
difficulties the parking brake for the AT was a drum on the end of the
transmission. I wasn't concerned about that until the lack of a safety
brake was pointed out to me by a State Trooper. So, next project was
swapping out the rear axle for one that had a safety brake and
fabricating the linkage. No big deal after inventing the whole hydraulic
clutch system from miscellaneous parts laying around.

Kept me out of trouble, I guess.

On 09/23/2017 12:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2".


Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match.


I had a Fiat Spyder but it didn't last long enough for me to work on it.
After a few heated discussions with the car salesman we worked out a
deal where I got a Mustang. I think the promise to park the damn Fiat in
his office got his attention.

I did do a rebuild on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta though. Wet sleeve engine?
Who does that anymore? I also have a couple of scars from when a friend
rolled his in which I was a passenger. They do not hold up well going
60mph upside down and backwards.

I never had an Italian bike. Desmodromic valves are too weird even for me.

On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:22:15 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Without it you curse a lot. You may need blood pressure medication too.

Is this very first second of this video showing the alignment tool in
action? https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E

It seems to take a split second, but the video is artificially sped up.


Yeah, that's a pretty good video. It just holds the clutch plate in
place and then you pull it out when the pressure plate is snugged down.
The video also illustrates what I meant about working around tightening
the pressure plate screws gradually and in a pattern around the pressure
plate. You'll also want to do the gradual thing when removing it or it
will start to cock and make removing the screws difficult. Once you've
backed them out enough to release the spring pressure all around then
you remove them one by one.

On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the
flywheel.

When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held
very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will
likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft
through the clutch disc and into the flywheel.

Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step.

As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red
centering tool already in place!
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331

That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool.
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352


It's one of those things you don't necessarily think about that screws
up someone without experience in the job. It's like the whole angle
discussion. They might show sliding the transmission back in place like
a stick of butter in a hot frying pan but after you've laid on your back
sweating and cursing trying to rattle a heavy chunk of metal just right
to get it started in the splines you realize the importance of being
able to line everything up nicely.

On 09/23/2017 11:59 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:21:31 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans
mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here.

This video, at time 92 seconds, says what you say, which is that the
"crankshaft and topshaft" must be aligned "along the same axis".
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=92

They show that procedure of aligning the two shafts at time 409 seconds:
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=409

. Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side
. Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???)

Depends on how strong/old you are.

This video, at time 62 seconds, shows a guy wrestling a Toyota transmission
up but then using a regular floor jack to hold it there (but he has to
adjust it a lot).
https://youtu.be/NcTmlO9XN1E?t=62


Yup. Been there, done that, but without the dog... There seems to be
audio so that guy is very self controlled. Generally you last there
screaming "F**k! F**k!" like some New Age mantra. Then when your well
meaning, nice old lady neighbor wanders over to ask if you're all right
you sort of have to come up with a polite reassurance through gritted
teeth hoping she'll go back to her soap opera.

It's really fun when the transmission is heavy enough to challenge your
bench press capabilities and you realize you've got one more rep left
before it's going to come down on you.

On 09/23/2017 12:05 PM, Ed wrote:
On 9/23/2017 12:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
btw, I think my terminology has been sloppy at times; bolts have a
matching nut, screws go into a threaded hole. Somehow 'bolt up the
pressure plate' sounds better than 'screw up the pressure plate'.


I *really* wish your definition of bolts and screws was true but the
standard naming convention is "screwed" up. ;-)

https://www.mcmaster.com/#screws/=19iejis

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Fas...navid=12108710


https://www.fastenal.com/products?r=...eners%22 %7C~



Yeah, it most definitely is a gray area for terminology. I've got to
admit in my mental processes screws start turning into bolts at around 3/8"

That second link had me guessing. I don't refer to Chicago screws as
'sex bolts'

On 09/23/2017 12:28 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
Personally, I use bolt when it's threaded into something that has matching
threads (these are generally relatively shallow angle threads).

I use screws for when it's a steeper-angled thread that "bites" into the
material (often with a sharp point).

Now you're getting into wood screws versus machine screws... That adds
a whole new layer of ambiguity. I won't even go into the wondrous world
of straight, Philips, Robertson, Torx, and whatever Apple dreamed up
this month to make it almost impossible to take their stuff apart.

On 09/23/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

Additional hints: always replace the throwout bearing,

The videos are instrumental for me to visualize what you're saying, as this
one, for example, at time 195 seconds, shows that throwout bearing (aka
release bearing) in action.
https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=195


I don't know what we did before videos and digital photography. The last
Yaris I had came without a radio. Putting a radio in these days means
starting down around the console with a plastic putty knife popping of
various trim pieces until you work your way up to the speedometer
assembly. Thanks the Gods for the forum's step by step photos.

Even for some projects where I'd draw a sketch to make sure I'd get
everything back in the same place I can now just take a picture.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:32:40 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 17:59:25 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:47:08 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The splines on the clutch disc must line up with the splines on the
flywheel.

When the pressure plate is tightened in place, the clutch disc is held
very firmly in place. Without aligning the splines first, you will
likely have a very difficult time inserting the transmission shaft
through the clutch disc and into the flywheel.

Most DIYs seem to gloss over this step.

As an example, this DIY at time 331 seconds, simply shows the bright red
centering tool already in place!
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=331

That same video, shows at time 352 seconds, a *different* centering tool.
https://youtu.be/S5xSOy03NAg?t=352

I did a search on "using clutch alignment tool" and came up with this
video:


I don't recall using anything but a broomstick and my eyeballs last time I did a clutch.
Of course that was a '66 F-100 3-speed. I bought a new flywheel - it was only 50 bucks.
Not saying that's the same as a 4Runner, and the OP should go with the flow.
I did ruin a pressure plate on my VW, and had to do the job twice.
Don't support your trans - engine in the case of the VW - in sand.

On 24/09/2017 6:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/23/2017 12:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/23/2017 1:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:40:17 -0600, rbowman wrote:

And if you're taking blood thinners or even common aspirin, band-aids,
plenty of band-aids....

Some videos are titled "toyota versus mechanic, round 2".


Maybe brutal but Fiat vs Mechanic is a death match.


I had a Fiat Spyder but it didn't last long enough for me to work on it.
After a few heated discussions with the car salesman we worked out a
deal where I got a Mustang. I think the promise to park the damn Fiat in
his office got his attention.

I did do a rebuild on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta though. Wet sleeve engine?
Who does that anymore? I also have a couple of scars from when a friend
rolled his in which I was a passenger. They do not hold up well going
60mph upside down and backwards.

I never had an Italian bike. Desmodromic valves are too weird even for me.


The concept is good, the execution sucks.

--

Xeno