On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:03:48 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:03:20 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Not particularly. Sometimes there is a shield on the bottom of the
bellhousing that you can remove. You can't really see much but if a lot
of dust and pieces of lining are present it isn't good news.

There *is* a semicircular shield plate on the bell housing.
I don't know what is behind it though.

What are the symptoms?
Two different things, one of which was fixed yesterday:
1. The clutch pedal feels like crap (more about that below)
2. It wouldn't shift into gear when cold.

The cold-shift issue somehow, magically, went away when I replaced the
original fluid yesterday with Red Line MT-90 "miracle fluid". I didn't
believe in the miracle fluid, but the driver (who isn't me) reported that
it works just fine now for shifting into gear when cold. Huh? How can that
be? What on earth is so magical about that fluid that it makes shifting
into gear when cold possible when the only thing that changed was the
fluid?

I don't understand it but I'm not complaining.

Likely some idiot put the wrong fluid in lastr time it was changed.
There IS a difference between GL4, GL5, ATF, and engine oil. Differnt
transmissions are built to use different fluids.

Is it slipping when you floor the engine at 50 mph or so?

There is no indication of slipping of the clutch.
I can stall the engine easily when I put it in the wrong gear.
I can slip the clutch to get it to go in the wrong gear.
I can start on a hill in the right gear.

So there is no indication that the clutch itself is slipping.
But ...

The pedal feels like crap.

Or just hard to engage and shift.

It was impossible to engage just two days ago. For months, the wife has
been complaining (it's actually her car) that it wouldn't go into gear. So
she shifted into reverse to get out of the garage. Then she turned the
engine off and back on. Then she shifted into first to make her K turn.
Then she turned the engine off and back on. Then she repeated this for as
long as it took her (something like five more steps than it takes me) to
complete her K turn and be on her way.

Yesterday and today, she was able to shift into the first and reverse gears
without turning off the engine! Can a simple oil change do that?

I don't understand it. I really don't.

BTW, I don't know if turning the engine off was necessary. I suspect not. I
suspect she could have gotten it into neutral and just activated the clutch
pedal a few times. The problem was it wouldn't get OUT of gear to go into
neutral. So she shut the engine down. When I tried it, I just held the
brake and pressed the clutch pedal a few times so I think the engine didn't
need to be turned off as I see nothing that turning off the engine should
do to the transmission. Do you?


I'd be checking the release cyl

My F150 had a appetite for
throwout bearings that gave the latter symptoms. They were good for
about 75k miles. By the time you're to the throwout you're almost to the
clutch do the last time around I replaced it and the pressure plate. I
think it was about $50 for both. Neither were in bad shape but while
you're there it's not much more work.

This is my problem.
I know *nothing* about "forks" and "throwout bearings" and "pilot bearings"
etc.

Again, another reason paying someone who knows MIGHT be a good
investment.

Sure I watched that great video on how transmissions work but that doesn't
give me any *practical* knowledge about how to diagnose why the clutch
pedal feels like crap.

It's so hard to explain that even when I try, it's not the same as feeling
it.

When I step on the pedal, and then release it while in gear, it just
doesn't feel right.

The clutch master might be bad too.

The pedal goes down ok, but then when I lift it up, the first couple of
inches are like floating in air, while the next inch it seems to fully
engage, where the next four or five inches of release travel is wasted as
the clutch is already engaged.

I'd be checking the hydraulics and the linkage before tearing the
transmission out.

Assume the whole pedal travel is, oh I don't know, let's say 12 inches.
The engagement travel is something like an inch it seems.
The rest of the 11 inches aren't doing anything.

Does that make any sense?

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:45:15 -0600, rbowman wrote:

A transmission jack with have a larger surface to
hold the transmission, generally some brackets to secure it in the right
position, straps to tie it down, and maybe a way to tilt the whole deal.

I didn't realize all the stuff, especially tilt, that a transmission jack
did where you explained lining up the shafts, where I'm now convinced. I
will buy (or rent - but I generally buy) a transmission jack.

It turns out that the cost to replace the clutch is so high (from $650 to
$1200 in the two quotes I received already) that the jack is just the first
hour of the four hour labor cost AAMCO just quoted (at 4 hours & $600 in
labor alone).

BTW, if it takes them four hours, it will take me the entire weekend, and
that would be if I have a perfect DIY to follow and if I don't run into
problems that I can't overcome easily.

Most tool rental places have them

I've been down the tool-rental path, where sometimes it's worth it (like
with a ditch digger but most of the time you get a beat up worn tool for
about half the price of a brand new tool).

So I'll likely buy a new but inexpensive transmission jack (or this saddle
idea if it works).

Googling I see some people just weld a fence post to a flat plate of metal
to make a saddle, but I don't have welding equipment (that's another
project for another day).

Must I have a transmission jack?
If I need it I'll get it - but it will only be used once so I'd rather not.

Rent it. The local Time Rental is showing $34.50 a day.

I have rented but found that you gat a beat up tool for about 1/3 the cost
of a brand new tool.

How does this cheap $100 transmission jack look?
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html

If you don't
have a torque wrench you can generally rent those too.

In this picture you one of my Pittsburgh (not great) torque wrenches.
https://s26.postimg.org/b8bppn96h/01...uid_Change.jpg

I don't mind buying a torque wrench if I need it because that is something
that gets used time and time again.

Another thing
about keeping the tranny nice and level and upright is you don't
suddenly find out that there really isn't a shaft seal on the input or
output shaft and fill your armpit with fluid.

I'm gonna drain it based on what was said prior that it's going to leak out
no matter what I do. I just drained it two days ago so that's easy to do.
https://s26.postimg.org/eo8fcxvsp/00...uid_Change.jpg

Two days ago I replaced the fluid as shown in this photo, so it will be
interesting to see what the new fluid looks like after a few weeks.
https://s26.postimg.org/hplfho4s9/00...uid_Change.jpg

If you figure it will take more than a couple of days you might find
something like this locally:
https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J

Thank you for finding that, which seems to be the $40 "saddle" that was
previously suggested.

I like the idea of the saddle because it means I don't have to store a
transmission jack that I'll likely never use again (although we all know
that spare tools have a way of finding themselves useful in the strangest
of ways).

Even if it's a couple of bucks more locally you can measure up your
floor jack and make sure it's something that's going to fit without
going off onto another project to make it work.

After reading what was written here, I'm definitely going to get
"something" for holding the transmission. It will either be the $100
transmission jack or the $40 saddle similar to those listed above.

I presume the jack works fine but I'll read the reviews on that saddle as
there is a chance it's a rube goldberg contraption.

The good news is that this is a 2WD Toyota so the transmission "looks"
accessible to me to a jack.
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg

Thanks for your wonderful advice!

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:05 -0400, wrote:

One question I have is "will the fluid leak out"?
I think not - but I know that the gearshift lever is open to the fluid.
So if you tip it over, the fluid will certainly come out.

Drain the fluid. Otherwize unless you have a "dummy shaft" to fit in
the tailstock it WILL leak when you get the tail end low

Thanks for confirming that it will leak more than I want it to.
The only reason it matters is that I put in very expensive (for what it is)
Red Line MT-90 which was about 20 bucks a quart, so, that's 60 bucks that I
don't want to waste.

The second question is whether a transmission lift is really needed when
you're in a jackstand situation (so you don't need ten feet of lift).

Can't a floor jack hold the transmission?

It can hold it but good luck getting the tilt right - more important
putting back in than pulling out. It's a 3 man job with a simple floor
jack - and the air will be blue. With a proper trans jack it's a
pretty simple one man job.

This is a good point that I had not thought of so thank you for pointing
out that I was mostly thinking of removal for the jack where all I had to
do was support the weight, but replacement is where "tilt" may matter (I
never thought about "tilt" before).

I didn't even know transmission jacks "tilt".
I thought they had two things only:
.. A flat plate
.. A ten-foot lift

I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered!

This is why it is often cheaper to pay someone with the right
equipment. You can likely get the labor to change the clutch for the
cost of a decent transmission jack - and if you drop the trans on your
hand, paying a pro to do the job would be CHEAP in comparison.

I understand your perspective which is that it is "sometimes" best to let
the pro's do the jobs where the risk it that you hurt yourself. People make
this argument all the time on compression of springs around the shocks.

You know what?

For years, I had AAMCO replace my shocks because I was afraid of dying, but
then one day I rented (for free) the spring compressor from an auto parts
store and wouldn't you know it. It's a trivial job to do. All these years I
was scared of nothing. Now I realize you're gonna say I'm a fool but I did
take safety into account, and, in fact, I rented two sets of springs, so I
had them double locked.

Safety is always something that has to be weighed proportionately.
A chain saw is just about the opposite of safe right?
A lawn mower is just as bad depending on the terrain, right?
And don't even think of going on the roof for anything, right?

Sometimes we have to take reasonable precautions, so I am leaning toward a
"cheap" transmission jack. Now, I know what you're going to say which is
that sometimes a cheap tool is more dangerous than a good tool, but I
assume the $150 transmission jack I found in my first google hit would be
ok for a single transmission job.

I called AAMCO who quoted 4 hours at $600 for labor alone, and then $1200
for the job (estimated over the phone), so at *those* prices, a
transmission jack is cheap!

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:04 -0400, wrote:

Wghat about the bloody aluminum engine mount bolts?

On the E39, the engine mounts are not a major problem. I don't recall a
single thread on it but I'm sure they exist. That includes both the V8 and
the I6.

The only engine "mount" that is really bad is the V8 power steering pump
has two bolts, one of which loosens up for some reason, and then when it
falls out, it stays out forever (unless someone notices it). Over time, it
causes the bracket to crack, and it's an expensive cast aluminum bracket,
so lots of people have tried "welding" it to some degree of success.

The lesson is to always check that lower bolt once a year if you have the
V8. The I6 doesn't have that problem because it's a different setup where
the V8 at least has a way to drain the PS fluid whereas the I6 has no
drain.

The only legitimate reason to buy a Bimmer is for image. Even its
performance is mostly image.

I understand that perspective. I didn't buy it for that reason, but I
understand the perspective. I bought it because I thought it was a good
car. And it is a good car in very many ways. It's also a POS in very many
ways.

The handling is very good, especially at speed.
The power is pretty good for the size engine (high compression ratio).
The suspension is pretty good.

That's about it for what's good - but you have to admit that's the hard
stuff.

The easy stuff, like making an A/C system that doesn't take a dozen button
presses or sealing the rear door vapor barriers with enough adhesive so
they don't leak water or designing the window regulator plastic rollers out
of better plastic (etcetera), they suck at.

All BMW engineers seem to care about is designing the drive train.

The good news is that the engine will last forever as long as you don't
overheat it due to the crappy cooling system.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:39:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

One thing I recently learned is that when you have the AC compressor
switch set to on, it appears that it basically runs it with the AC
full on and uses the heater to then warm the air to the set temp.

Interesting. I didn't know that, but on the E39, the BMW mindset seems to
be similar in that it's really a PITA to set things up because they don't
want you to touch it, where you're "supposed" to fine-tune adjust
temperature only by adjusting the "mixture" of hot and cold air.

So it's the same BMW mind set on the E39 as you mentioned for your X5.

In the E39, you set the "desired" passenger/driver temperatures with a
multi-button-push method that you don't want to do every day. And then
you're supposed to leave that passenger/driver temperature setting forever
and not touch it again.

What that means is that you can't set the interior temperature at the time
you start the vehicle. The computer figures it out based on whatever it
bases it upon (probably the delta between ambient and your permanent
setting).

Then, almost the way you mentioned above where you "heat the AC" air,
you're "supposed" to control the fine-tuning of the temperature merely by
letting the computer do all the work where all you do is twist the one
cold/hot blue/red knob that adjusts the portion of hot air and cold air
coming out.

So you don't have the kind of easy twist-knob controls like most cars have.
It's fine if you really don't want to adjust the temperature, but if you
want to adjust the temperature, it's a dozen button presses. Sigh.

I can understand the need to do that to some extent, to remove
humidity. You want to drop the air temp to remove humidity, then
warm it back up.

I never heard that, but maybe that's the reason.

But when it's not humid, it's a waste of energy to run
the AC compressor excessively. You would think when they are desperate
to increase mileage to meet govt reqts that reducing the AC load
would be something that could be easily done.

Yes. But. You probably test smog/mileage with the AC off.

A humidity sensor
for example. Also they target an AC coil temp just a couple deg
above freezing, while other cars appear to maintain a higher temp.
So they are constantly chilling air down to near freezing, only
to heat it back up to get it to 72F.

I didn't know about that.

BMW engineers are a strange lot.

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 1:44:10 PM UTC-4, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:39:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

One thing I recently learned is that when you have the AC compressor
switch set to on, it appears that it basically runs it with the AC
full on and uses the heater to then warm the air to the set temp.

Interesting. I didn't know that, but on the E39, the BMW mindset seems to
be similar in that it's really a PITA to set things up because they don't
want you to touch it, where you're "supposed" to fine-tune adjust
temperature only by adjusting the "mixture" of hot and cold air.

So it's the same BMW mind set on the E39 as you mentioned for your X5.

In the E39, you set the "desired" passenger/driver temperatures with a
multi-button-push method that you don't want to do every day. And then
you're supposed to leave that passenger/driver temperature setting forever
and not touch it again.

What that means is that you can't set the interior temperature at the time
you start the vehicle. The computer figures it out based on whatever it
bases it upon (probably the delta between ambient and your permanent
setting).

Then, almost the way you mentioned above where you "heat the AC" air,
you're "supposed" to control the fine-tuning of the temperature merely by
letting the computer do all the work where all you do is twist the one
cold/hot blue/red knob that adjusts the portion of hot air and cold air
coming out.

So you don't have the kind of easy twist-knob controls like most cars have.
It's fine if you really don't want to adjust the temperature, but if you
want to adjust the temperature, it's a dozen button presses. Sigh.

I can understand the need to do that to some extent, to remove
humidity. You want to drop the air temp to remove humidity, then
warm it back up.

I never heard that, but maybe that's the reason.

All cars with AC essentially do that. It's how you get the fog off
the inside of windows when it's cool outside. Even though AC is
not needed the compressor runs, the air gets chilled, removing the
humidity, then warmed back up.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:09:00 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Is the clutch linkage mechanical or hydraulic?
All Japanese cars, I'm told, are hydraulic.
This one certainly is hydraulic.
I bled the slave cylinder months ago but it didn't do anything.

Get under it and you'll
see some sort of lever sticking out the side of the bellhousing. Have
your wife operate the clutch and see if you are getting a full stroke
and smooth travel.

I went through my photos in my fluid change DIY where I didn't snap one of
the pink slave cylinder but in the far left you can see the rubber-booted
actuating mechanism into the clutch that the slave cylinder operates.
https://s26.postimg.org/rgncldsmx/00...uid_Change.jpg

I can have her press the pedal but I'd have to know how much travel to look
for at the transmission itself.

The symptoms were very erratic so sometimes it would work, sometimes
not. I also thought it might be the pivot ball for the lever arm. A
spray of lube and it would work for a while but I think that was just
coincidental. That could be why your miracle oil worked.

I'm all with you on the fact that the "miracle oil" must be an anomaly of
some sort because I just can't believe it makes that much of a difference
between a non-working transmission when cold making a K turn out of the
garage and a working one, when the fluid level was not low (it was actually
20 ounces too high).
https://s26.postimg.org/fjvq0wqpl/01...uid_Change.jpg

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:54:49 -0600, rbowman wrote:

If this "transmission saddle" can be bought locally, I'll get it!

Walmart shows them but I imagine it would be something they would have
to order before you find out how well it works with your floor jack.

This was posted earlier in the thread.
https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J

The question is whether to get that or this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html

They have more expensive transmission jacks but this is expected to be a
one-time use so it doesn't need to be super sturdy but just sturdy enough.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 21:02:54 -0600, rbowman wrote:

I've got the manuals for both of my Suzuki bikes. Some parts like the
electronics are good, others do assume you've worked on bikes and just
hit the high spots.

I got the shop manual (and a helmet!) for free from the dealer (the helmet
was a factory promo) in 1982 when I bought my first GT650M Sebring (as I
recall).

It sucked.
But I did use it to adjust the cam shims, as I recall.
And to replace the alternator (they used a *permanent* magnet!).

But it still sucked.
Millions of steps are missed.

Still, I agree that the FSM is required.
But that doesn't make it not suck.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:43:58 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

The good news is that this is a 2WD Toyota so the transmission "looks"
accessible to me to a jack.
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg

Wrong picture.

This picture shows the transmission.
https://s26.postimg.org/xwwbbh16h/01...uid_Change.jpg

There is some kind of "mount" at the rear (right in the picture).
Since this is the 2WD, it looks kind of roomy down there.

I noticed the $100 transmission jack had a "5 degree forward tilt".

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:05 -0400, wrote:

I don't understand it but I'm not complaining.

Likely some idiot put the wrong fluid in lastr time it was changed.
There IS a difference between GL4, GL5, ATF, and engine oil. Differnt
transmissions are built to use different fluids.

I will repeat that I was shocked that the fluid change made what would
clearly not shiftable when cold, now shiftable. (New fluid didn't change
the clutch pedal feel issue of course - but it magically "fixed" the fact
that a cold K turn out of the garage required multiple killing of the
engine where now that's not needed.)

This is what the top 20 ounces of the old clutch fluid looked like:
https://s26.postimg.org/eo8fcxvsp/00...uid_Change.jpg

And this is what the bottom 72 ounces of clutch fluid looked like:
https://s26.postimg.org/s2cbhhnp5/01...uid_Change.jpg

Where 2.9 quarts came out but the spec is for only 2.7 quarts.
https://s26.postimg.org/fjvq0wqpl/01...uid_Change.jpg

This is the gunk that was in the drain plug:
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg

I think the only thing "wrong" with the fluid that I could tell is that
there was 20 ounces too much and it looked pretty dirty.

Certainly it should have been changed long ago, where it could be the
original 20 year old fluid if the clutch job five or so years ago didn't
replace it.

I know the history of the car from day 1, so it definitely only had one
time where there would have been a chance of the fluid being changed, and
that was the clutch job years ago at half the current mileage.

I'd be checking the release cyl

There is a release cylinder?
Googling for "toyota clutch release cylinder" shows up stuff.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=toyota+clu...lease+cylinder

Here's a boot for the "clutch release cylinder" but is that the same thing
as a "slave cylinder"?
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/...476-22010.html

When I step on the pedal, and then release it while in gear, it just
doesn't feel right.

The clutch master might be bad too.

The master/slave cylinders may be bad.
I will check them for leaks.
Dunno if there is anything else that can be checked yet.

I'd be checking the hydraulics and the linkage before tearing the
transmission out.

I agree.
The one thing though is that the clutch is going to *need* to be replaced
soon anyway as it has had the same clutch for five years or more.

posted for all of us...



I'd be checking the hydraulics and the linkage before tearing the
transmission out.


+1 on that. Also +1 on the fluids.

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:43:58 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:
SNIPP

I've been down the tool-rental path, where sometimes it's worth it (like
with a ditch digger but most of the time you get a beat up worn tool for
about half the price of a brand new tool).

So I'll likely buy a new but inexpensive transmission jack (or this saddle
idea if it works).

Googling I see some people just weld a fence post to a flat plate of metal
to make a saddle, but I don't have welding equipment (that's another
project for another day).

And the fence post doesn't give you the tilt that the jack saddle does
(it really converts the floor jack to a transmission jack)

Must I have a transmission jack?
If I need it I'll get it - but it will only be used once so I'd rather not.

Rent it. The local Time Rental is showing $34.50 a day.

I have rented but found that you gat a beat up tool for about 1/3 the cost
of a brand new tool.

How does this cheap $100 transmission jack look?
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html


Well, for starters it only gives you FIVE degrees of tilt. In my
experience that is seldom enough.
If you don't
have a torque wrench you can generally rent those too.

In this picture you one of my Pittsburgh (not great) torque wrenches.
https://s26.postimg.org/b8bppn96h/01...uid_Change.jpg

I don't mind buying a torque wrench if I need it because that is something
that gets used time and time again.

Another thing
about keeping the tranny nice and level and upright is you don't
suddenly find out that there really isn't a shaft seal on the input or
output shaft and fill your armpit with fluid.

I have a policy (developed from YTARS of automotive service) od
ALWAYS draining a transmission before removing unless it has a fixed
output flange.

I'm gonna drain it based on what was said prior that it's going to leak out
no matter what I do. I just drained it two days ago so that's easy to do.
https://s26.postimg.org/eo8fcxvsp/00...uid_Change.jpg

Two days ago I replaced the fluid as shown in this photo, so it will be
interesting to see what the new fluid looks like after a few weeks.
https://s26.postimg.org/hplfho4s9/00...uid_Change.jpg

If you figure it will take more than a couple of days you might find
something like this locally:
https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J


Notice it has a full 60 degrees of tilt - 30 in each direction. MUCH
more usefull than the 5 degree motorcycle jack that "also works" as a
transmission jack (sorta)
Thank you for finding that, which seems to be the $40 "saddle" that was
previously suggested.

I like the idea of the saddle because it means I don't have to store a
transmission jack that I'll likely never use again (although we all know
that spare tools have a way of finding themselves useful in the strangest
of ways).

Even if it's a couple of bucks more locally you can measure up your
floor jack and make sure it's something that's going to fit without
going off onto another project to make it work.

After reading what was written here, I'm definitely going to get
"something" for holding the transmission. It will either be the $100
transmission jack or the $40 saddle similar to those listed above.

Don't waste your money and effort on the $100 solution - it is NOT a
viable solution.

I presume the jack works fine but I'll read the reviews on that saddle as
there is a chance it's a rube goldberg contraption.

The saddle WILL work, as long as your jack has a removeable saddle and
the pin on the trans saddle fits or can be adapted to you jack saddle
mounting hole.

The good news is that this is a 2WD Toyota so the transmission "looks"
accessible to me to a jack.
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg


The transfer case on a 4wd does complicate things "somewhat".
Thanks for your wonderful advice!

On 22/09/2017 3:44 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:05 -0400, wrote:

One question I have is "will the fluid leak out"?
I think not - but I know that the gearshift lever is open to the fluid.
So if you tip it over, the fluid will certainly come out.

Drain the fluid. Otherwize unless you have a "dummy shaft" to fit in
the tailstock it WILL leak when you get the tail end low

Thanks for confirming that it will leak more than I want it to.
The only reason it matters is that I put in very expensive (for what it is)
Red Line MT-90 which was about 20 bucks a quart, so, that's 60 bucks that I
don't want to waste.

The second question is whether a transmission lift is really needed when
you're in a jackstand situation (so you don't need ten feet of lift).

Can't a floor jack hold the transmission?

It can hold it but good luck getting the tilt right - more important
putting back in than pulling out. It's a 3 man job with a simple floor
jack - and the air will be blue. With a proper trans jack it's a
pretty simple one man job.

This is a good point that I had not thought of so thank you for pointing
out that I was mostly thinking of removal for the jack where all I had to
do was support the weight, but replacement is where "tilt" may matter (I
never thought about "tilt" before).

I didn't even know transmission jacks "tilt".
I thought they had two things only:
. A flat plate
. A ten-foot lift
and a threaded rod or some other form of adjustment for the tilt. I also
find that having a second adjustment on the tilt plate to be useful -
tilt at 90 degrees to the first - so that you can align dowels on the
bell housing. Necessary when the gearbox weighs a ton or so.

I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered!

It is the *critical spec*. Without it you can easily end up with a
buckled clutch plate or difficulty getting the shafts aligned. The
tractor I did recently had a dual clutch, one plate was for the PTO, so
there were two splines to line up plus a pilot shaft. Flexibility is key.

This is why it is often cheaper to pay someone with the right
equipment. You can likely get the labor to change the clutch for the
cost of a decent transmission jack - and if you drop the trans on your
hand, paying a pro to do the job would be CHEAP in comparison.

I understand your perspective which is that it is "sometimes" best to let
the pro's do the jobs where the risk it that you hurt yourself. People make
this argument all the time on compression of springs around the shocks.

You know what?

For years, I had AAMCO replace my shocks because I was afraid of dying, but
then one day I rented (for free) the spring compressor from an auto parts
store and wouldn't you know it. It's a trivial job to do. All these years I
was scared of nothing. Now I realize you're gonna say I'm a fool but I did
take safety into account, and, in fact, I rented two sets of springs, so I
had them double locked.

Safety is always something that has to be weighed proportionately.
A chain saw is just about the opposite of safe right?
A lawn mower is just as bad depending on the terrain, right?
And don't even think of going on the roof for anything, right?

Sometimes we have to take reasonable precautions, so I am leaning toward a
"cheap" transmission jack. Now, I know what you're going to say which is
that sometimes a cheap tool is more dangerous than a good tool, but I
assume the $150 transmission jack I found in my first google hit would be
ok for a single transmission job.

If the jack isn't Ok for 100 jobs, it isn't Ok for 1.

I called AAMCO who quoted 4 hours at $600 for labor alone, and then $1200
for the job (estimated over the phone), so at *those* prices, a
transmission jack is cheap!



--

Xeno

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:44:01 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:05 -0400, wrote:

One question I have is "will the fluid leak out"?
I think not - but I know that the gearshift lever is open to the fluid.
So if you tip it over, the fluid will certainly come out.

Drain the fluid. Otherwize unless you have a "dummy shaft" to fit in
the tailstock it WILL leak when you get the tail end low

Thanks for confirming that it will leak more than I want it to.
The only reason it matters is that I put in very expensive (for what it is)
Red Line MT-90 which was about 20 bucks a quart, so, that's 60 bucks that I
don't want to waste.

The second question is whether a transmission lift is really needed when
you're in a jackstand situation (so you don't need ten feet of lift).

Can't a floor jack hold the transmission?

It can hold it but good luck getting the tilt right - more important
putting back in than pulling out. It's a 3 man job with a simple floor
jack - and the air will be blue. With a proper trans jack it's a
pretty simple one man job.

This is a good point that I had not thought of so thank you for pointing
out that I was mostly thinking of removal for the jack where all I had to
do was support the weight, but replacement is where "tilt" may matter (I
never thought about "tilt" before).

I didn't even know transmission jacks "tilt".
I thought they had two things only:
. A flat plate
. A ten-foot lift

I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered!

This is why it is often cheaper to pay someone with the right
equipment. You can likely get the labor to change the clutch for the
cost of a decent transmission jack - and if you drop the trans on your
hand, paying a pro to do the job would be CHEAP in comparison.

I understand your perspective which is that it is "sometimes" best to let
the pro's do the jobs where the risk it that you hurt yourself. People make
this argument all the time on compression of springs around the shocks.

You know what?

For years, I had AAMCO replace my shocks because I was afraid of dying, but
then one day I rented (for free) the spring compressor from an auto parts
store and wouldn't you know it. It's a trivial job to do. All these years I
was scared of nothing. Now I realize you're gonna say I'm a fool but I did
take safety into account, and, in fact, I rented two sets of springs, so I
had them double locked.

Not a fool at all - you did your homework.

Safety is always something that has to be weighed proportionately.
A chain saw is just about the opposite of safe right?
A lawn mower is just as bad depending on the terrain, right?
And don't even think of going on the roof for anything, right?

Sometimes we have to take reasonable precautions, so I am leaning toward a
"cheap" transmission jack. Now, I know what you're going to say which is
that sometimes a cheap tool is more dangerous than a good tool, but I
assume the $150 transmission jack I found in my first google hit would be
ok for a single transmission job.


The floor jack you have, with a proper attachment, is better than a
$100 transmission jack
I called AAMCO who quoted 4 hours at $600 for labor alone, and then $1200
for the job (estimated over the phone), so at *those* prices, a
transmission jack is cheap!

On 22/09/2017 4:24 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:54:49 -0600, rbowman wrote:

If this "transmission saddle" can be bought locally, I'll get it!

Walmart shows them but I imagine it would be something they would have
to order before you find out how well it works with your floor jack.

This was posted earlier in the thread.
https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J

The question is whether to get that or this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html

They have more expensive transmission jacks but this is expected to be a
one-time use so it doesn't need to be super sturdy but just sturdy enough.

If you have only one floor jack, the second option is better. That will
leave your floor jack free for general use. The second option would not
suit my needs however - the load carrying capacity is too low.

--

Xeno

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:44:03 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:04 -0400, wrote:

Wghat about the bloody aluminum engine mount bolts?

On the E39, the engine mounts are not a major problem. I don't recall a
single thread on it but I'm sure they exist. That includes both the V8 and
the I6.

A friend's wifes BMW snapped an aluminum bolt on a motor mount,
causing the engine to shift out of position. Being a retired machinist
he took it apart and was able to remove the threaded portion of the
bolt from the block? and replaced it with a steel bolt. This was the
mount that fastens the engine to the chassis - and I believe it was
the bolt that fastened the mount to the engine block.

I'll try to remember to ask Ted next Wednesday at lunch.

The only engine "mount" that is really bad is the V8 power steering pump
has two bolts, one of which loosens up for some reason, and then when it
falls out, it stays out forever (unless someone notices it). Over time, it
causes the bracket to crack, and it's an expensive cast aluminum bracket,
so lots of people have tried "welding" it to some degree of success.

The lesson is to always check that lower bolt once a year if you have the
V8. The I6 doesn't have that problem because it's a different setup where
the V8 at least has a way to drain the PS fluid whereas the I6 has no
drain.

The only legitimate reason to buy a Bimmer is for image. Even its
performance is mostly image.

I understand that perspective. I didn't buy it for that reason, but I
understand the perspective. I bought it because I thought it was a good
car. And it is a good car in very many ways. It's also a POS in very many
ways.

The handling is very good, especially at speed.
The power is pretty good for the size engine (high compression ratio).
The suspension is pretty good.

That's about it for what's good - but you have to admit that's the hard
stuff.


For the price of a Bimmer, it should all be better than just "pretty
good" My old Mercury Mystique was "pretty good" on all those counts
too. Went like a cat on a hot tin roof - and cornered like it was on
rails. That little n2.5 V6 (Porsche design with Cosworth heads.) was a
pretty willing engine - and just as capable.
The easy stuff, like making an A/C system that doesn't take a dozen button
presses or sealing the rear door vapor barriers with enough adhesive so
they don't leak water or designing the window regulator plastic rollers out
of better plastic (etcetera), they suck at.

Must have had the same engineers that designed the German Fords.

All BMW engineers seem to care about is designing the drive train.

The stylists look after the rest - under the constraints of the bean
counters.

The good news is that the engine will last forever as long as you don't
overheat it due to the crappy cooling system.
The same could honestly also be said of a Chevy Vega - - -

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:44:04 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 18:39:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

One thing I recently learned is that when you have the AC compressor
switch set to on, it appears that it basically runs it with the AC
full on and uses the heater to then warm the air to the set temp.

Interesting. I didn't know that, but on the E39, the BMW mindset seems to
be similar in that it's really a PITA to set things up because they don't
want you to touch it, where you're "supposed" to fine-tune adjust
temperature only by adjusting the "mixture" of hot and cold air.

So it's the same BMW mind set on the E39 as you mentioned for your X5.

In the E39, you set the "desired" passenger/driver temperatures with a
multi-button-push method that you don't want to do every day. And then
you're supposed to leave that passenger/driver temperature setting forever
and not touch it again.

What that means is that you can't set the interior temperature at the time
you start the vehicle. The computer figures it out based on whatever it
bases it upon (probably the delta between ambient and your permanent
setting).

Then, almost the way you mentioned above where you "heat the AC" air,
you're "supposed" to control the fine-tuning of the temperature merely by
letting the computer do all the work where all you do is twist the one
cold/hot blue/red knob that adjusts the portion of hot air and cold air
coming out.

So you don't have the kind of easy twist-knob controls like most cars have.
It's fine if you really don't want to adjust the temperature, but if you
want to adjust the temperature, it's a dozen button presses. Sigh.

I can understand the need to do that to some extent, to remove
humidity. You want to drop the air temp to remove humidity, then
warm it back up.

I never heard that, but maybe that's the reason.

But when it's not humid, it's a waste of energy to run
the AC compressor excessively. You would think when they are desperate
to increase mileage to meet govt reqts that reducing the AC load
would be something that could be easily done.

Yes. But. You probably test smog/mileage with the AC off.

A humidity sensor
for example. Also they target an AC coil temp just a couple deg
above freezing, while other cars appear to maintain a higher temp.
So they are constantly chilling air down to near freezing, only
to heat it back up to get it to 72F.

I didn't know about that.

BMW engineers are a strange lot.
Virtually all cars with "automatic temp control" or "climate
control" work the same way - just the the Chermans need to put their
own (twisted) twist on everything. Teutonic engineering.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:21:11 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:09:00 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Is the clutch linkage mechanical or hydraulic?
All Japanese cars, I'm told, are hydraulic.
This one certainly is hydraulic.
I bled the slave cylinder months ago but it didn't do anything.

Get under it and you'll
see some sort of lever sticking out the side of the bellhousing. Have
your wife operate the clutch and see if you are getting a full stroke
and smooth travel.

I went through my photos in my fluid change DIY where I didn't snap one of
the pink slave cylinder but in the far left you can see the rubber-booted
actuating mechanism into the clutch that the slave cylinder operates.
https://s26.postimg.org/rgncldsmx/00...uid_Change.jpg

I can have her press the pedal but I'd have to know how much travel to look
for at the transmission itself.

The symptoms were very erratic so sometimes it would work, sometimes
not. I also thought it might be the pivot ball for the lever arm. A
spray of lube and it would work for a while but I think that was just
coincidental. That could be why your miracle oil worked.

I'm all with you on the fact that the "miracle oil" must be an anomaly of
some sort because I just can't believe it makes that much of a difference
between a non-working transmission when cold making a K turn out of the
garage and a working one, when the fluid level was not low (it was actually
20 ounces too high).
https://s26.postimg.org/fjvq0wqpl/01...uid_Change.jpg
The RIGHT oil can make all the difference - or is it the wrong oil???

There may be several oils that work "OK" and one that really screws
thins up, or in some cases one oil that works well, and half a dozen
that cause varying degrees of bedlam.

The secret? Use the recommended oil or one of the same spec
(possibly enhanced)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:38:45 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:43:58 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

The good news is that this is a 2WD Toyota so the transmission "looks"
accessible to me to a jack.
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg

Wrong picture.

This picture shows the transmission.
https://s26.postimg.org/xwwbbh16h/01...uid_Change.jpg

There is some kind of "mount" at the rear (right in the picture).
Since this is the 2WD, it looks kind of roomy down there.

I noticed the $100 transmission jack had a "5 degree forward tilt".

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?
A WHOLE lot more than 5 degrees - generally at least 15. Most good
trans jacks give you at least 20, and in both directions. For the Yota
you only NEED it to tip the one way.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:42:29 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 00:50:05 -0400, wrote:

I don't understand it but I'm not complaining.

Likely some idiot put the wrong fluid in lastr time it was changed.
There IS a difference between GL4, GL5, ATF, and engine oil. Differnt
transmissions are built to use different fluids.

I will repeat that I was shocked that the fluid change made what would
clearly not shiftable when cold, now shiftable. (New fluid didn't change
the clutch pedal feel issue of course - but it magically "fixed" the fact
that a cold K turn out of the garage required multiple killing of the
engine where now that's not needed.)

This is what the top 20 ounces of the old clutch fluid looked like:
https://s26.postimg.org/eo8fcxvsp/00...uid_Change.jpg

And this is what the bottom 72 ounces of clutch fluid looked like:
https://s26.postimg.org/s2cbhhnp5/01...uid_Change.jpg

Where 2.9 quarts came out but the spec is for only 2.7 quarts.
https://s26.postimg.org/fjvq0wqpl/01...uid_Change.jpg

This is the gunk that was in the drain plug:
https://s26.postimg.org/urbpl9ik9/01...uid_Change.jpg

I think the only thing "wrong" with the fluid that I could tell is that
there was 20 ounces too much and it looked pretty dirty.

Certainly it should have been changed long ago, where it could be the
original 20 year old fluid if the clutch job five or so years ago didn't
replace it.

I know the history of the car from day 1, so it definitely only had one
time where there would have been a chance of the fluid being changed, and
that was the clutch job years ago at half the current mileage.

I'd be checking the release cyl

There is a release cylinder?
Googling for "toyota clutch release cylinder" shows up stuff.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=toyota+clu...lease+cylinder

Here's a boot for the "clutch release cylinder" but is that the same thing
as a "slave cylinder"?

Potato potauto - same thing.
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/...476-22010.html

When I step on the pedal, and then release it while in gear, it just
doesn't feel right.

The clutch master might be bad too.

The master/slave cylinders may be bad.
I will check them for leaks.
Dunno if there is anything else that can be checked yet.

They can bind. So can the linkage. The pivot ball on the release
(throw-out) fork can also wear and stick - and so can the release
bearing (where it slides on the "nose" of the transmission)

I'd be checking the hydraulics and the linkage before tearing the
transmission out.

I agree.
The one thing though is that the clutch is going to *need* to be replaced
soon anyway as it has had the same clutch for five years or more.
If the driver knows how to use the clutch, that is immaterial. My
ranger had 307000km on it when I got it - with the original clutch -
and the clutch was less than half worn - I had to replace the
internally mounted release cyl/bearing assembly so we put in a new
clutch at the same time. The truck was 17 years okd - it is now 22
with 354000km on it.

On 09/21/2017 11:43 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
How does this cheap $100 transmission jack look?
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html

Like a Harbor Freight jack From the reviews t doesn't sound like it
holds the transmission securely without some extra work. I don't rag on
Harbor Freight often but I've had mixed success. I bought a floor jack
and it does work but on the first use it spit the saddle out when the
rivet failed. Nothing that couldn't be cured with a bolt but still not
the greatest quality. China Freight is what it is as they say. The
Pittsburg wrenches aren't bad and I carry them on the bikes. If somebody
rips off the tool tube it isn't a major loss.

With HF, the less moving parts the better. I'd definitely go with the
saddle adapter if you can find one.

On 09/21/2017 11:44 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered!

You betcha. It's very unlikely the engine will be parallel to the floor
and the clutch splines aren't very forgiving about coming in at an
angle, nor is the pilot bushing.

On 09/21/2017 12:21 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
I can have her press the pedal but I'd have to know how much travel to look
for at the transmission itself.

I can't give you a concrete number but typically they're designed to use
most of the travel of the slave cylinder. Obviously it can't bottom out
on either end but you should see smooth travel throughout its range of
motion, with a little play in the lever when it's fully retracted.

On 09/21/2017 12:24 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 20:54:49 -0600, rbowman wrote:

If this "transmission saddle" can be bought locally, I'll get it!

Walmart shows them but I imagine it would be something they would have
to order before you find out how well it works with your floor jack.

This was posted earlier in the thread.
https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J

The question is whether to get that or this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html

They have more expensive transmission jacks but this is expected to be a
one-time use so it doesn't need to be super sturdy but just sturdy enough.


I'd definitely go with the adapter if you can find one that will work
with your floor jack. It would be about half the cost and from the
sounds of the HF reviews easier to use.

On 09/21/2017 12:27 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
It sucked.
But I did use it to adjust the cam shims, as I recall.
And to replace the alternator (they used a *permanent* magnet!).

Yup. I went through that last year when the stator on my DL-650 smoked.
Judging from the forums that's not a rare event. The V-Strom doesn't
have a lot of body work but it all has to come off so you can get the
tank off so you have some hope of getting to the connectors.

I've got a DR-650 and a Sportster too and they have me spoiled.

On 09/21/2017 12:38 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
There is some kind of "mount" at the rear (right in the picture).
Since this is the 2WD, it looks kind of roomy down there.

Yeah, there's always something. In the F150's it's a removable cross
member that the tail shaft sits on.

I noticed the $100 transmission jack had a "5 degree forward tilt".

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?

That depends on how level you can get the engine.

On 09/21/2017 07:05 PM, wrote:
I have a policy (developed from YTARS of automotive service) od
ALWAYS draining a transmission before removing unless it has a fixed
output flange.

That's no fun... ATF in particular keeps your skin nice and soft.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:25:53 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?

That depends on how level you can get the engine.

Hmmmm... this is another thing I never thought of.
I will be on "adjustable" jack stands from HF. The 6 ton size.
They have those gear teeth.
That's the limit of adjustability.

How do you measure that the engine is "level"?
I have levels, of course.

In fact, I "tried" to measure the level of the transmission when I did the
lube change a few days ago. Here is a picture that I didn't put in the DIY
of me trying to figure out if the tranny is level.
https://s26.postimg.org/d5pocivnt/level.jpg

I gave up because I didn't have a good flat spot.

I knew the garage floor was level though.
https://s26.postimg.org/d53ughagp/00...uid_Change.jpg

So how do you check the level of the engine?
Do you just try what I tried with the transmission and look for a suitable
flat spot?

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:35:43 -0400, wrote:

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?
A WHOLE lot more than 5 degrees - generally at least 15. Most good
trans jacks give you at least 20, and in both directions. For the Yota
you only NEED it to tip the one way.

OK. I will look for 20 degrees then.
There is forward, back, and side.

Are all three tilts needed?
Or just two?

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 11:09:29 +1000, Xeno wrote:

I didn't know that "tilt" was a spec that mattered!

It is the *critical spec*. Without it you can easily end up with a
buckled clutch plate or difficulty getting the shafts aligned. The
tractor I did recently had a dual clutch, one plate was for the PTO, so
there were two splines to line up plus a pilot shaft. Flexibility is key.

Well, then, I'm officially edified that tilt *is* the spec!
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ion-jacks.html

How much is the "minimum" tilt needed in degrees?

This $160 transmission jack, for example, says:
Saddle tilt backwards (deg) 8°
Saddle tilt forward (deg) 55°
Saddle tilt side (deg) 30°
https://www.harborfreight.com/800-lb...ack-60234.html

But this $100 one says:
Saddle tilt forward (deg) 5 deg.
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-39178.html

This $300 one says:
Saddle tilt forward (deg) 55° forward, 10° back, 12° side
https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-60240.html

Obviously more is better in most cases, but what is a minimum required?
Forward = ?
Back = ?
Side = ?

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:11:25 -0400, wrote:

The floor jack you have, with a proper attachment, is better than a
$100 transmission jack

This is really good to know for a whole bunch of reasons.

One is that the saddle will be easier to store and less money than a
complete transmission jack.

The other is that the floor jack is the beefiest one that Costco sold years
ago (maybe ten years ago?) where the only thing I would change if/when it
breaks is I'd go to aluminum instead of the heavy steel.

How does this "Floor jack transmission adapter" model 39152 look?
http://images.harborfreight.com/manu...9999/39152.pdf

Unfortunately, it looks like it's no longer sold though.

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 21:05:10 -0400, wrote:

Well, for starters it only gives you FIVE degrees of tilt. In my
experience that is seldom enough.

OK. I'll look for more than five degrees of tilt.
20 degrees in fact.
Forward and back.
Is side-to-side necessary?

I have a policy (developed from YTARS of automotive service) od
ALWAYS draining a transmission before removing unless it has a fixed
output flange.

I'm ok with draining since it's easy enough.
Plus it makes it slightly lighter.
But less messy is more important.
Plus, thinking forward, if I spill anything, I have to drain it anyway
because I won't know how much spilled to replace exactly the spill.

Notice it has a full 60 degrees of tilt - 30 in each direction. MUCH
more usefull than the 5 degree motorcycle jack that "also works" as a
transmission jack (sorta)

So 20 or 30 front to back is good?
What about side to side?

BTW, a friend said he can give me an unused still-in-the-box motorcycle
jack from HF so I will take a look at that tomorrow to check out the spec.

Don't waste your money and effort on the $100 solution - it is NOT a
viable solution.
If tilt is what I need, then I will have to get more tilt.

A friend is letting me have a motorcycle jack if it fits the bill so I'll
check that out tomorrow.


The saddle WILL work, as long as your jack has a removeable saddle and
the pin on the trans saddle fits or can be adapted to you jack saddle
mounting hole.

It's the best Costco steel floor jack of about five to ten or so years ago
so it does have a removable saddle. Dunno on the size.

On 09/21/2017 11:04 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 20:25:53 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Do you have any idea how much forward/backward tilt is usually needed?
That depends on how level you can get the engine.
Hmmmm... this is another thing I never thought of.
I will be on "adjustable" jack stands from HF. The 6 ton size.
They have those gear teeth.
That's the limit of adjustability.

How do you measure that the engine is "level"?
I have levels, of course.

In fact, I "tried" to measure the level of the transmission when I did the
lube change a few days ago.

You need screw style jack stands for precision leveling:
https://www.amazon.com/Esco-Screw-St.../dp/B00FG09NS4

On 09/21/2017 09:04 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
How do you measure that the engine is "level"?
I have levels, of course.

I hesitated when I wrote that. The axis of the engine's crankshaft when
it is supported has to be the same as that of the transmission's input
shaft. The whole lashup could be at a 20 degree angle relative to the
floor as long as both match.

Another way to look at is the perpendicular mating surfaces need to have
matching angles.

posted for all of us...



A friend's wifes BMW snapped an aluminum bolt on a motor mount,
causing the engine to shift out of position. Being a retired machinist
he took it apart and was able to remove the threaded portion of the
bolt from the block? and replaced it with a steel bolt. This was the
mount that fastens the engine to the chassis - and I believe it was
the bolt that fastened the mount to the engine block.


MAYBE they had this there as part of crash protection... IDK why they would
do this?

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:47:18 -0600, rbowman wrote:

How do you measure that the engine is "level"?
I have levels, of course.

I hesitated when I wrote that. The axis of the engine's crankshaft when
it is supported has to be the same as that of the transmission's input
shaft. The whole lashup could be at a 20 degree angle relative to the
floor as long as both match.

Another way to look at is the perpendicular mating surfaces need to have
matching angles.

Thanks for clarifying that the engine needs to be in line with the
transmission shaft, where they look (to the naked eye) parallel to the
garage floor that the vehicle will be parked on.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:30:51 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve wrote:

How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?

I know this is long but there are zero DIYs that I can find on the net
for my particular vehicle but there are a few that are for "similar"
vehicles from Toyota (see the reference section for what DIYs I did use).

How does this "future DIY" look for putting a DIY together?

New Tools:
.. Buy/rent/borrow/steal a transmission jack or saddle
Jack: https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html
Saddle: https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J
.. Buy/rent/borrow/steal the proper centering tool & bearing pullers
.. Pilot bearing puller (or blind hole puller from HF or autozone)
.. http://www.harborfreight.com/blind-h...ler-95987.html
.. Note that some people pack behind the bearing with grease to punchhole it out
.. Clutch alignment tool (fits splines of clutch disc)

Parts for the Toyota W59 transmission (Toyota 4Runner, 2WD, base, 5-speed).
.. New clutch disk (apparently Aisin, Eddy, or MC but not LUK or XTD; 1200# weight?)
.. New pressure plate
.. New pilot bearing (is that the same as a throwout bearing?)
.. It is said to only use the factory NSK throwout bearing (orange inner seal)
.. New #136? flywheel (resurfacing=$60 Kevin @408-379-7290, All Standard)
.. New rear main seal (since you're pulling the flywheel anyway)
.. Locktite Red (flywheel bolts & clutch cover bolts)
.. Locktite Blue (starter and bellhousing bolts)
.. Maybe a new slave cylinder (they don't last forever)

Existing tools:
.. Lots of 1/2-inch sized u-joints
.. Literally 2-1/2 to 3 feet of 1/2-inch socket extension bars (16" bare minimum)
.. Snap-ring pliers (for the transmission case snap ring)
.. Gear pullers
.. Torque wrench & sockets (all 1/2 inch sized)
.. Note that the 4-cyl ten 14mm flywheel bolts are 12 point (not 6 point)

Existing fluids:
.. 2.7 quarts replacement 75W90 GL4 gear lube
.. Thick high-moly graphite grease to lube the spline input shaft & ID of throwout bearing
.. Toyota FIPG for the rear main seal (RTV is ok but not as good)
.. No grease on diaphragm springs, pressure plate or throwout bearing face.
.. Light grease on throwout bearing ID, input shaft splines
.. Light grease on clutch fork pivot points & outside the shaft collar

Torque specs:
.. Starter bolts 30ft#
.. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
.. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines)

Here is my tentative DIY (composite from a few non-correct-truck DIYs):
(It's detailed because I have never done it; so I might miss a critical step otherwise.)
.. The night before, PB blast (or oil and bang) all bolts if necessary (mine are clean)
.. Check before/after clutch pedal free play (1/4" to prevent throwout bearing wear)
.. While the 4Runner is on the ground, put the transmission in 1st gear
.. Remove the cabin gear shift mechanism
.. While above, snap pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness from above
.. http://www.showstop.org/images/misc/r150F-harness.jpg
.. If possible, unbolt the "conning tower" for the shift mechanism
.. Disconnect the battery negative cable (since the starter bolts will be removed)
.. Then 4x-jackstand the car as high as you can get it (I have four 18", 6 ton stands).\
.. Attempt to level the vehicle as best you can so the engine is level with the trans
.. While below, snap pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness
.. Loosen both the fill plug and drain plug (should be easy as I just drained it 3 days ago)
.. Drain the expensive Red Line MT-90 I just put in! (20 bucks a quart!)
.. (Lesson for next time: Use cheap gear oil for the first flush-fill & then the good stuff.)
.. Remove the rear-facing drive shaft 14mm bolts & pull out the drive shaft (do first if hard)
.. Remove 2x12mm bolts for the clutch slave cylinder & hang safely on hangar wire
.. It is said to not follow FSM procedure which says to remove exhaust pipe (leave the pipe)
.. Remove 17mm bolts holding exhaust pipe bracket to transmission housing
.. I don't know if the next step is needed because some say yes while others say no
.. Remove 12mm bolts holding exhaust pipe into the bracket (these may be corroded)
.. Do no separate the exhaust pipes!
.. Remove 2x10mm oxygen sensor bracket bolts holding the wiring & sensor to the housing
.. Remove the reverse light sensor
.. Remove the speed sensor
.. Remove the oxygen sensor
.. Remove the 7/8ths-inch speedometer cable hex cap
.. Remove the main harness which connects to a bell housing bolt
.. Remove two 14mm bolts around the starter housing
.. Remove the bottom set of forward facing long 14mm or 17mm bellhousing bolts
.. Remove the bottom series of rearward facing 14mm bolts around the bell housing
.. Remove anything else in the way
.. Zip tie any cables in place so that they don't get damaged later
.. Then support the transmission with a transmission jack or jack saddle
.. Strap the transmission in routing the straps under any wires
.. Remove the 12mm and 14mm bolts holding the rear transmission mount assembly
.. Remove the top series of three short 17mm bolts on the bell housing
.. These are said to need a 1/2-inch short socket, swivel, & at least 16" to 18" socket bars
.. The frame cross member is welded in so you need to twist the transmission
.. Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side
.. Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???)
.. In a star pattern, remove the series of 12mm bolts holding the clutch into the bell housing
.. You must snap pictures of the asymmetrical nature of the clutch disc before removing
.. V6 has the springs toward the flywheel; the 2.7L I4 has the springs toward the trans
.. Remove the clutch disc
.. Remove the pressure plate
.. Remove the ten (12-point) 14mm bolts ringing the flywheel to the engine
.. Have the flywheel replaced or resurfaced
.. Remove the pilot bearing in the back of the engine with a bearing puller
.. Most DIYs stop right there (reassembly supposedly being the reverse of removal)

On reassembly (which most DIYs ignore), these topics came up after the fact:
.. A screwdriver wedged into the flywheel teeth immobilizes it for bolt tightening
.. It is said that so does a punch through one of the flywheel holes
.. The wiring harness layout has to be considered while lifting the transmission back
.. It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn)
.. Input shaft alignment stage 1 is getting the splines to go into the clutch disc.
.. Input shaft alignment stage 2 is the last inch onto the input shaft bearing
.. Jack fine tuning matters in that last inch (use bellhousing bolts as alignment pins)
.. It is said the bellhousing has an alignment dowel near the slave-cylinder mount
.. It is said to grease the top & inside of the clutch fork ends
.. And grease the adjoining surfaces of the throwout bearing.
.. Grease the divot in the middle of the clutch fork
.. Just before you install the clutch slave cylinder, grease the divot at the end fork
.. Cover the clutch fork mushroom bolt with HD grease.

References this came out of (none of which are my vehicle and year)
http://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-tacoma-tech/149715-5vz-clutch-job.html
http://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-tacoma-tech/146210-w59-shifting-problems.html
http://www.ttora.com/forum/6-performance-engine-exhaust/35936-clutch-install-tips.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-sscHblanc.

On 23/09/2017 7:26 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:47:18 -0600, rbowman wrote:

How do you measure that the engine is "level"?
I have levels, of course.

I hesitated when I wrote that. The axis of the engine's crankshaft when
it is supported has to be the same as that of the transmission's input
shaft. The whole lashup could be at a 20 degree angle relative to the
floor as long as both match.

Another way to look at is the perpendicular mating surfaces need to have
matching angles.

Thanks for clarifying that the engine needs to be in line with the
transmission shaft, where they look (to the naked eye) parallel to the
garage floor that the vehicle will be parked on.

Most engines that I've come across are not "parallel to the garage
floor". In fact, most are inclined at a slight downward angle. There are
reasons for this and it has to do with driveshaft alignment. More likely
to be horizontal if the vehicle has a triple jointed driveshaft.

--

Xeno

On 23/09/2017 8:04 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 00:30:51 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve wrote:

How hard is it to replace a clutch in a 5-speed manual transmission?

I know this is long but there are zero DIYs that I can find on the net
for my particular vehicle but there are a few that are for "similar"
vehicles from Toyota (see the reference section for what DIYs I did use).

How does this "future DIY" look for putting a DIY together?

As always, observe the RTFM principle before doing anything.

New Tools:
. Buy/rent/borrow/steal a transmission jack or saddle
Jack: https://www.harborfreight.com/automo...ack-61232.html
Saddle: https://www.amazon.com/Gotobuy-Trans.../dp/B01MTXZE6J
. Buy/rent/borrow/steal the proper centering tool & bearing pullers
. Pilot bearing puller (or blind hole puller from HF or autozone)
. http://www.harborfreight.com/blind-h...ler-95987.html
. Note that some people pack behind the bearing with grease to punchhole it out
. Clutch alignment tool (fits splines of clutch disc)

The clutch alignment tool does not need to have splines. That said, most
people of my acquaintance keep on hand a swag of transmission input
shafts from trans rebuild jobs. Ask about the possibility of securing
one of these at a trans place near you. Alternatively, I have had
success building a shaft that is too small up to size using humble old
plastic electrical insulation tape. Did that on the tractor I recently
changed a clutch on since we didn't have the exact dummy pilot shaft we
needed, and it worked perfectly. Necessity is the mother of invention,
not to mention cost savings.

Parts for the Toyota W59 transmission (Toyota 4Runner, 2WD, base, 5-speed).
. New clutch disk (apparently Aisin, Eddy, or MC but not LUK or XTD; 1200# weight?)
. New pressure plate
. New pilot bearing (is that the same as a throwout bearing?)

No. It is the bearing or bush that fits into the back end of the
crankshaft and supports the front end of the gearbox input shaft, hence
supporting the weight of the clutch plate.

. It is said to only use the factory NSK throwout bearing (orange inner seal)
. New #136? flywheel (resurfacing=$60 Kevin @408-379-7290, All Standard)
. New rear main seal (since you're pulling the flywheel anyway)
. Locktite Red (flywheel bolts & clutch cover bolts)
. Locktite Blue (starter and bellhousing bolts)
. Maybe a new slave cylinder (they don't last forever)

Existing tools:
. Lots of 1/2-inch sized u-joints
. Literally 2-1/2 to 3 feet of 1/2-inch socket extension bars (16" bare minimum)
. Snap-ring pliers (for the transmission case snap ring)
. Gear pullers
. Torque wrench & sockets (all 1/2 inch sized)
. Note that the 4-cyl ten 14mm flywheel bolts are 12 point (not 6 point)

Existing fluids:
. 2.7 quarts replacement 75W90 GL4 gear lube
. Thick high-moly graphite grease to lube the spline input shaft & ID of throwout bearing
. Toyota FIPG for the rear main seal (RTV is ok but not as good)
. No grease on diaphragm springs, pressure plate or throwout bearing face.
. Light grease on throwout bearing ID, input shaft splines
. Light grease on clutch fork pivot points & outside the shaft collar

Torque specs:
. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ and 5VZ engines)

Pressure plate bolt torques? As critical as flywheel bolt.

Here is my tentative DIY (composite from a few non-correct-truck DIYs):
(It's detailed because I have never done it; so I might miss a critical step otherwise.)
. The night before, PB blast (or oil and bang) all bolts if necessary (mine are clean)
. Check before/after clutch pedal free play (1/4" to prevent throwout bearing wear)

Learn to differentiate between pedal free play and release bearing free
play - you should be able to feel two (2) distinct steps - pedal play,
then release play. Some systems work on zero free play at the release
bearing (e.g. carbon thrust block types) but, in the case of hydraulic
systems, there is *always* a need for free play at the master cylinder
end. This is to ensure correct operation of the MC hydraulics.

. While the 4Runner is on the ground, put the transmission in 1st gear
. Remove the cabin gear shift mechanism
. While above, snap pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness from above
. http://www.showstop.org/images/misc/r150F-harness.jpg
. If possible, unbolt the "conning tower" for the shift mechanism
. Disconnect the battery negative cable (since the starter bolts will be removed)
. Then 4x-jackstand the car as high as you can get it (I have four 18", 6 ton stands).\
. Attempt to level the vehicle as best you can so the engine is level with the trans
. While below, snap pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness
. Loosen both the fill plug and drain plug (should be easy as I just drained it 3 days ago)
. Drain the expensive Red Line MT-90 I just put in! (20 bucks a quart!)
. (Lesson for next time: Use cheap gear oil for the first flush-fill & then the good stuff.)
. Remove the rear-facing drive shaft 14mm bolts & pull out the drive shaft (do first if hard)
. Remove 2x12mm bolts for the clutch slave cylinder & hang safely on hangar wire
. It is said to not follow FSM procedure which says to remove exhaust pipe (leave the pipe)

This will impact on how far you can lower the transmission to possibly
gain the required clearance from the transmission hump or access to
upper bell housing bolts.

. Remove 17mm bolts holding exhaust pipe bracket to transmission housing

This point can, if care isn't taken, result in damage to the exhaust
pipe if following the point immediately above.

The above two steps will always be a case of *it depends*.

. I don't know if the next step is needed because some say yes while others say no
. Remove 12mm bolts holding exhaust pipe into the bracket (these may be corroded)
. Do no separate the exhaust pipes!
. Remove 2x10mm oxygen sensor bracket bolts holding the wiring & sensor to the housing
. Remove the reverse light sensor
. Remove the speed sensor
. Remove the oxygen sensor
. Remove the 7/8ths-inch speedometer cable hex cap
. Remove the main harness which connects to a bell housing bolt
. Remove two 14mm bolts around the starter housing
. Remove the bottom set of forward facing long 14mm or 17mm bellhousing bolts
. Remove the bottom series of rearward facing 14mm bolts around the bell housing
. Remove anything else in the way
. Zip tie any cables in place so that they don't get damaged later
. Then support the transmission with a transmission jack or jack saddle
. Strap the transmission in routing the straps under any wires
. Remove the 12mm and 14mm bolts holding the rear transmission mount assembly
. Remove the top series of three short 17mm bolts on the bell housing
. These are said to need a 1/2-inch short socket, swivel, & at least 16" to 18" socket bars
. The frame cross member is welded in so you need to twist the transmission

That movement in other than the fore and aft direction that the trans
mount adapter needs to be capable of will be of great assistance here.

. Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver side
. Lower the transmission (most seem to do it by hand even when they have a jack???)

Depends on how strong/old you are.

. In a star pattern, remove the series of 12mm bolts holding the clutch into the bell housing
. You must snap pictures of the asymmetrical nature of the clutch disc before removing
. V6 has the springs toward the flywheel; the 2.7L I4 has the springs toward the trans
. Remove the clutch disc
. Remove the pressure plate
. Remove the ten (12-point) 14mm bolts ringing the flywheel to the engine
. Have the flywheel replaced or resurfaced
. Remove the pilot bearing in the back of the engine with a bearing puller
. Most DIYs stop right there (reassembly supposedly being the reverse of removal)

No mention of what you should be inspecting for, both on bits you intend
to replace and those you intend to refit. Flywheel face, for instance.

No mention of cleaning and safety precautions associated with same.


On reassembly (which most DIYs ignore), these topics came up after the fact:

These are the sorts of things tradesmen learn, and do, almost as a
reflex action after many years of involvement with the trade.

. A screwdriver wedged into the flywheel teeth immobilizes it for bolt tightening
. It is said that so does a punch through one of the flywheel holes
. The wiring harness layout has to be considered while lifting the transmission back
. It is said to put it in gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to turn)

Top gear always.

As a learning process, when you have the trans out, select low gear,
turn the output shaft and discover why top gear is the choice.

. Input shaft alignment stage 1 is getting the splines to go into the clutch disc.
. Input shaft alignment stage 2 is the last inch onto the input shaft bearing
. Jack fine tuning matters in that last inch (use bellhousing bolts as alignment pins)
. It is said the bellhousing has an alignment dowel near the slave-cylinder mount
. It is said to grease the top & inside of the clutch fork ends
. And grease the adjoining surfaces of the throwout bearing.
. Grease the divot in the middle of the clutch fork

Use care on the type and placement of any grease. Excesses can be bad
news as can the wrong type of grease.

. Just before you install the clutch slave cylinder, grease the divot at the end fork
. Cover the clutch fork mushroom bolt with HD grease.

References this came out of (none of which are my vehicle and year)
http://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-tacoma-tech/149715-5vz-clutch-job.html
http://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-tacoma-tech/146210-w59-shifting-problems.html
http://www.ttora.com/forum/6-performance-engine-exhaust/35936-clutch-install-tips.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-sscHblanc.



--

Xeno