Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

On 08/30/2013 03:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.
[snip]

So did you find them?

Jon

On 8/30/2013 7:49 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 08/30/2013 03:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.
[snip]

So did you find them?

Jon


Sorta. Out of four stores I managed to get two 4-packs of AAAs. Three
of four stores didn't have any at all. In a way I'm happy, because I
really needed some AAA cells. Sad because at $3.65/4-pack I would have
gone full prepper and gladly cleaned out whatever they had. At that
price I could have justified buying a boatload of cells and getting some
eBay 3xAA to D and 4xAAA to C cell adapters and finally converting
*everything* over to NiMH.

If you have a Target nearby check 'em out. (you can stop reading now if
you already knew what I was talking about.) "Duraloop" is a nickname
that came from Candlepowerforums I think for Duracell low self discharge
NiMH rechargeable cells that were actually made by Sanyo and are
functionally indistinguishable from Eneloops. Apparently Duracell has
introduced a new rechargeable cell and so Target is unloading the old
stock at a screaming discount. It wasn't advertised, they were still
labeled at about $12 but scanning under the price checker revealed that
yes they were on sale for $3.65.

Identifying the elusive Duraloop - they will say "Precharged" or
"Staycharged" on the package, will be rated at 2000 mAh for the AAs and
800 mAh for the AAAs, will be made in Japan, and most importantly will
have a WHITE top on the positive end. There may be black or grey top
cells with the exact same part number, but they're not the same and
legend has it that they're inferior.

These are the first I've had; Target's regular price on these is higher
than I can get real Sanyo Eneloops shipped either from Amazon or on eBay
- if you look around you can probably get them for about $20/8.
(actually the eBay seller that I got my last batch from had Eneloops
with a more recent production date than Amazon's source.) But I've got
the first four running a break-in cycle on my charger now and they've
already charged and discharged once, only one cell was under its rated
800 mAh and that not by much, and these were dated 2009 (!) so they sure
do seem like they might be the real deal.

I think either Staples or OfficeMax sold Duracell rechargeables too, if
I end up driving by one tomorrow I should see if they have a similar
closeout, and still have any white-tops...

nate

On 8/30/2013 5:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries. I pick up cheep alkaline batteries at Family Dollar
but order other types of batteries online because I have trouble walking
for miles in gigantic retail stores. I purchase the inexpensive alkaline
batteries because I go through a lot of them in test gear on jobs so I
can afford to carry several sets for all the gear and not have to worry
about rechargeable batteries running out of juice in the middle of a
job. I do have NiMh cells in my digital camera with the alkaline cells
as backup. We must take pictures of the work and upload them to the
corporate website so I gotta have batteries. Me and JH finished up
installation of a phone system today and each phone needed a 9 volt
battery. Guess which brand of battery the phones got? O_o

I looked up those Maha Imedion batteries on Amazon, Oh my God! Those
things are fracking expensive! _

TDD

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?


What, exactly, are you complaining about? That their capacity is low?
Perhaps that;s the tradeoff for the selling price? What do all the
different batteries cost in $/100mAh ??

On 8/30/2013 11:41 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?


What, exactly, are you complaining about? That their capacity is low?
Perhaps that;s the tradeoff for the selling price? What do all the
different batteries cost in $/100mAh ??


Eneloop AA = 2000 mAh, $10/4, so $0.125 per 100 mAh

Energizer D = 2500 mAh, $12/2, so $0.24 per 100 mAh

but the real insult is that their "D cell" isn't low self discharge and
has less capacity than some traditional AAs! In fact I'm pretty sure
the Maha Imedion AAs (LSD) are rated at 2400 mAh. So what's going to
happen is people are going to buy these either not understanding what
the numbers mean or not reading the label and they're going to replace a
15,000 mAh alkaline with a 2500 mAh NiMH (even though there's 8-10K mAh
NiMHs available, they're not sold in stores!) and be disappointed in the
rechargeables, mutter about damn tree hugging hippies ruining
everything, and go back to alkalines.

I'm mad that Energizer would market such a ****ty product and one that
is so spectacularly unsuited for its intended use. I'm also mad that
I've never seen a *good* competing product in stores, save for at Micro
Center.

Three Duraloops in one of these would be infinitely preferable (almost
as good as a real NiMH D cell, and possibly more convenient), *if* you
could buy the adapters in stores...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Bat...em2a2d82 c350

nate

And the quality:
==============
Thank you for this great question, I would be happy to assist you.
Regarding our NIMH Rechargeable batteries and Chargers, all of them are
genuine from China.

Thank you for taking the time to contact Energizer.
===============
YEs, we share your insultedness.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/30/2013 6:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

On 8/31/2013 3:59 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/30/2013 11:41 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?


What, exactly, are you complaining about? That their capacity is low?
Perhaps that;s the tradeoff for the selling price? What do all the
different batteries cost in $/100mAh ??


Eneloop AA = 2000 mAh, $10/4, so $0.125 per 100 mAh

Energizer D = 2500 mAh, $12/2, so $0.24 per 100 mAh

but the real insult is that their "D cell" isn't low self discharge and
has less capacity than some traditional AAs! In fact I'm pretty sure
the Maha Imedion AAs (LSD) are rated at 2400 mAh. So what's going to
happen is people are going to buy these either not understanding what
the numbers mean or not reading the label and they're going to replace a
15,000 mAh alkaline with a 2500 mAh NiMH (even though there's 8-10K mAh
NiMHs available, they're not sold in stores!) and be disappointed in the
rechargeables, mutter about damn tree hugging hippies ruining
everything, and go back to alkalines.

I'm mad that Energizer would market such a ****ty product and one that
is so spectacularly unsuited for its intended use.

If it's not intended for YOUR use, don't buy it.
I'm quite sure that the marketing department did lots of studies
to determine that they could sell more product at that price/product point.

You must have a stroke when you walk down the paper products aisle
at the market.

I'm also mad that
I've never seen a *good* competing product in stores, save for at Micro
Center.

Three Duraloops in one of these would be infinitely preferable (almost
as good as a real NiMH D cell, and possibly more convenient), *if* you
could buy the adapters in stores...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Bat...em2a2d82 c350


nate

I've heard the Japan white tops were better.

If you're using AA cells, please consider Powergenix. Only
available in AA, and they don't do deep discharge very well.
But, they have a higher 1.6 volt full charge. I used them
for a while in my mini mag with Teralux bulb module. Also
used them in my digital camera. Went back to low discharge
NiMH for those. I still use Powergenix in my computer
speaker.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/30/2013 8:30 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Sorta. Out of four stores I managed to get two 4-packs of AAAs. Three
of four stores didn't have any at all. In a way I'm happy, because I
really needed some AAA cells. Sad because at $3.65/4-pack I would have
gone full prepper and gladly cleaned out whatever they had. At that
price I could have justified buying a boatload of cells and getting some
eBay 3xAA to D and 4xAAA to C cell adapters and finally converting
*everything* over to NiMH.

If you have a Target nearby check 'em out. (you can stop reading now if
you already knew what I was talking about.) "Duraloop" is a nickname
that came from Candlepowerforums I think for Duracell low self discharge
NiMH rechargeable cells that were actually made by Sanyo and are
functionally indistinguishable from Eneloops. Apparently Duracell has
introduced a new rechargeable cell and so Target is unloading the old
stock at a screaming discount. It wasn't advertised, they were still
labeled at about $12 but scanning under the price checker revealed that
yes they were on sale for $3.65.

Identifying the elusive Duraloop - they will say "Precharged" or
"Staycharged" on the package, will be rated at 2000 mAh for the AAs and
800 mAh for the AAAs, will be made in Japan, and most importantly will
have a WHITE top on the positive end. There may be black or grey top
cells with the exact same part number, but they're not the same and
legend has it that they're inferior.

These are the first I've had; Target's regular price on these is higher
than I can get real Sanyo Eneloops shipped either from Amazon or on eBay
- if you look around you can probably get them for about $20/8.
(actually the eBay seller that I got my last batch from had Eneloops
with a more recent production date than Amazon's source.) But I've got
the first four running a break-in cycle on my charger now and they've
already charged and discharged once, only one cell was under its rated
800 mAh and that not by much, and these were dated 2009 (!) so they sure
do seem like they might be the real deal.

I think either Staples or OfficeMax sold Duracell rechargeables too, if
I end up driving by one tomorrow I should see if they have a similar
closeout, and still have any white-tops...

nate

My guess, he's insulted that the retail stores
don't have good quality batteries for those who
wish to purchase good ones.

An email friend of mine has a home made hybrid
flashlight lantern. Used a square lantern from
Walmart, a LED bulb from online, and four D cells
(10 amp hour) and a D cell to lantern adaptor.
Got an entire year of use out of one charge.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/30/2013 11:41 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?


What, exactly, are you complaining about? That their capacity is low?
Perhaps that;s the tradeoff for the selling price? What do all the
different batteries cost in $/100mAh ??

On 8/30/2013 10:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries. I pick up cheep alkaline batteries at Family Dollar

Some people think the cheep alkaline batteries I buy are for the birds
but those inexpensive batteries always work for me because I'm cheap. ^_^

TDD

On 8/30/2013 6:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception: I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

No. I don't buy much from the local big-box stores. All they sell is junk.

Amazon Prime and UPS is my best friend here.

On 8/31/2013 9:16 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 10:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries. I pick up cheep alkaline batteries at Family Dollar

Some people think the cheep alkaline batteries I buy are for the birds
but those inexpensive batteries always work for me because I'm cheap. ^_^

TDD


They're still probably cost effective, but I've had several different
alkalines leak on me in the past year, I'm done with them!

nate

On 8/31/2013 9:21 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/31/2013 9:16 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 10:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries. I pick up cheep alkaline batteries at Family Dollar

Some people think the cheep alkaline batteries I buy are for the birds
but those inexpensive batteries always work for me because I'm cheap. ^_^

TDD


They're still probably cost effective, but I've had several different
alkalines leak on me in the past year, I'm done with them!

nate


My strategy is not to leave batteries in gear long enough for them to
leak. I keep a zip-lock bag in the equipment case and remove the
batteries then put them in the bag when I know I won't use it for a
while. I learned this after some expensive meters were damaged by
leaking batteries. You did notice "cheep and cheap"? Spell checkers
can't do it all, one must use his brain sometimes. ^_^

TDD

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

The more things change the more they stay the same. Perhaps others
should read, too.

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 10:21:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 9:16 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/30/2013 10:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries. I pick up cheep alkaline batteries at Family Dollar

Some people think the cheep alkaline batteries I buy are for the birds
but those inexpensive batteries always work for me because I'm cheap. ^_^

TDD


They're still probably cost effective, but I've had several different
alkalines leak on me in the past year, I'm done with them!

The trick with alkalines is to replace them before they're dead. Cheap
alkalines are the way to go but if you're going to leave them
installed until they leak, get bunnies or copper ones. They'll
replace the widget. ...or so I'm told. I use the $.20 variety from
the Borg.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 09:33:29 -0400, Mitt Romley
wrote:

On 8/30/2013 6:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception: I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

No. I don't buy much from the local big-box stores. All they sell is junk.

Amazon Prime and UPS is my best friend here.

The UPS guy must just love delivering sheets of plywood.

On 08/30/2013 05:30 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/30/2013 7:49 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 08/30/2013 03:27 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.
[snip]

So did you find them?

Jon


Sorta. Out of four stores I managed to get two 4-packs of AAAs. Three
of four stores didn't have any at all. In a way I'm happy, because I
really needed some AAA cells. Sad because at $3.65/4-pack I would have
gone full prepper and gladly cleaned out whatever they had. At that
price I could have justified buying a boatload of cells and getting some
eBay 3xAA to D and 4xAAA to C cell adapters and finally converting
*everything* over to NiMH.

Damn that is cheap. Thanks for the head's up, I'll check my local
Target tomorrow and see if I can get lucky.

Jon

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending. I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.


But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

The more things change the more they stay the same. Perhaps others
should read, too.

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.


Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it, but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

nate

On 8/30/2013 8:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries.

Costco sells Eneloops in AA and AAA bundles, which vary over time.
Sometimes they have a charger bundled in, sometimes they don't,
occasionally they'll have both with and without a charger.

Most big box stores just sell whatever has the highest margins because
they know that most people are not experts in choosing rechargeable
batteries. How many people do you think understand the difference
between low-self-discharge NiMH cells and regular NiMH cells and why
it's not always better to choose the low self-discharge batteries?

I'll often buy from http://www.all-battery.com/ because they are close
to me and I can do will-call. They are a Tenergy reseller and carry both
the low-self-discharge and regular Tenergy cells, and not just in AA and
AAA sizes. I don't think that Sanyo even makes C and D eneloops. The
Tenergy low-self-discharge are typically 20% less capacity than their
non-low-self-discharge cells.

People are using a lot fewer C & D cells then in the past. LED
flashlights use a lot less power than incandescent flashlights so
there's less of a need for larger capacity C & D cells.

On 08/31/2013 04:58 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it, but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.


It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that
consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and
thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy. I'm
sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not
buying throwaways, though.

How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate
brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA
cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge
for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.

In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute"
come to mind.

Jon

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 06:59:00 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:



Three Duraloops in one of these would be infinitely preferable (almost
as good as a real NiMH D cell, and possibly more convenient), *if* you
could buy the adapters in stores...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Bat...em2a2d82 c350

nate

You might call Amazon a "store."
I bought a couple of these a few years ago. Paid about the same price
as now, within a couple bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Eneloop-Charge...rds=eneloop+aa

I have 6 each of the C and D containers laying in a tool drawer.
Think I bought a pack of extras cell and they came with containers.
I avoid C and D.
Don't even use my big D Maglites - a 3 and a 5 cell.
Have about 4 AA LED Mags. They do fine.
Here's the containers alone.
http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-Eneloop-...ref=pd_sim_e_5

The first link looks like the best deal.
But both of those chargers got destroyed when my basement flooded.
I replaced them with Sonys about a year ago.
http://tinyurl.com/lswwjaq

The Sony chargers charge each cell individually, and I haven't noticed
any difference from the Eneloops. Nothing scientific, just haven't
noticed any difference in time before recharge.

Still use the old Eneloop batteries too. A few wouldn't charge in the
Sony charger, just caused a blinking light. Tossed those.

That linked Sony is a bad deal. Mine had the same number of batteries
as the Eneloop charger pack above, and cost 30, or maybe 35.
But no containers.
After reading the reviews and seeing they were good, and in the
ballpark pricewise I just pulled the trigger. Won't spend hours and
hours to save a buck.

You'll run into bull**** on Amazon. When I replaced my original
Eneloops with Sony, the same Eneloop batt/charger/container pack I had
paid 30 bucks for was only offered by one vendor.
Price? 120 bucks. I put in a quick ripoff review. Apparently Amazon
puts no controls on outrageous prices. As always, shop around.

On 8/31/2013 7:11 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate
brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA
cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge
for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.

In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute"
come to mind.

It gets tiring to have to know everything about everything to avoid
being cheated.

I think C & D battery sales are becoming such a small percentage of
total battery sales that a company like Eveready is just not going to
bother with making every chemistry in every size, so they just use AA
internals in their C & D cells for NiMH. Can you even buy a C & D NiMH
charger at the big box stores?

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

I used to work for Duracell. From a business perspective given by the
executives at the time, it was a good idea for Energizer and Duracell to
jump on the rechargeables bandwagon and get some sales, but it was not a
good idea to cannibalize their own business with high capacity
rechargeables.

--
If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people come from?


9/1/2013 12:01:17 AM

On 8/31/2013 8:54 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/30/2013 8:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I order batteries from "http://www.batteryjunction.com/" and they have
Eneloop, Panasonic Evolta and Tenergy Centura. They don't have Maha
Imedion batteries.

Costco sells Eneloops in AA and AAA bundles, which vary over time.
Sometimes they have a charger bundled in, sometimes they don't,
occasionally they'll have both with and without a charger.

Most big box stores just sell whatever has the highest margins because
they know that most people are not experts in choosing rechargeable
batteries. How many people do you think understand the difference
between low-self-discharge NiMH cells and regular NiMH cells and why
it's not always better to choose the low self-discharge batteries?

I'll often buy from http://www.all-battery.com/ because they are close
to me and I can do will-call. They are a Tenergy reseller and carry both
the low-self-discharge and regular Tenergy cells, and not just in AA and
AAA sizes. I don't think that Sanyo even makes C and D eneloops. The
Tenergy low-self-discharge are typically 20% less capacity than their
non-low-self-discharge cells.

People are using a lot fewer C & D cells then in the past. LED
flashlights use a lot less power than incandescent flashlights so
there's less of a need for larger capacity C & D cells.


My D cell flashlights converted to LED last so much longer and are often
much brighter. I have a D cell Maglite as long as my forearm that will
produce a lot of light for a very long time with the LED conversion and
doesn't need batteries as often. You can still use it to crack someone's
head open without any concern that it will knock out the bulb. ^_^

I do online ordering not because I'm lazy but because it's hard for me
to walk around a big box store. I try to go the little places to buy
just about anything because I don't have to walk so far but I'm getting
stronger and my visiting nurse yells at me for exerting myself. ^_^

TDD

On 8/31/2013 10:15 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 06:59:00 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:



Three Duraloops in one of these would be infinitely preferable (almost
as good as a real NiMH D cell, and possibly more convenient), *if* you
could buy the adapters in stores...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Bat...em2a2d82 c350

nate

You might call Amazon a "store."
I bought a couple of these a few years ago. Paid about the same price
as now, within a couple bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Eneloop-Charge...rds=eneloop+aa

I have 6 each of the C and D containers laying in a tool drawer.
Think I bought a pack of extras cell and they came with containers.
I avoid C and D.
Don't even use my big D Maglites - a 3 and a 5 cell.
Have about 4 AA LED Mags. They do fine.
Here's the containers alone.
http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-Eneloop-...ref=pd_sim_e_5

The first link looks like the best deal.
But both of those chargers got destroyed when my basement flooded.
I replaced them with Sonys about a year ago.
http://tinyurl.com/lswwjaq

The Sony chargers charge each cell individually, and I haven't noticed
any difference from the Eneloops. Nothing scientific, just haven't
noticed any difference in time before recharge.

Still use the old Eneloop batteries too. A few wouldn't charge in the
Sony charger, just caused a blinking light. Tossed those.

That linked Sony is a bad deal. Mine had the same number of batteries
as the Eneloop charger pack above, and cost 30, or maybe 35.
But no containers.
After reading the reviews and seeing they were good, and in the
ballpark pricewise I just pulled the trigger. Won't spend hours and
hours to save a buck.

You'll run into bull**** on Amazon. When I replaced my original
Eneloops with Sony, the same Eneloop batt/charger/container pack I had
paid 30 bucks for was only offered by one vendor.
Price? 120 bucks. I put in a quick ripoff review. Apparently Amazon
puts no controls on outrageous prices. As always, shop around.


I tell my roommate to pay attention to the shipping charges. A neat item
you want may have a price of $5.00 but the shipping and handling charges
for the damn thing could be $15.00. I always pay attention to any other
costs involved with obtaining an item off any website. You
may have to fabricate the information you put in so you can get to the
checkout page to find the final cost and not windup being buried in spam
if you have no desire to pay too much for something. 10 minute mail
"http://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html" works very well for
sites that require a bit too much information to answer your questions
about the final cost of an item. O_o

TDD

On 9/1/2013 12:05 AM, Rocinante wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

But wait, there's more

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/c.aspx

they come in C cell size too! Oh joy!

I mean, really. It's not that they managed to put out a *bad* cell, to
make one this pathetic takes real effort. It's like they're just saying
"**** you, consumers, we want to sell you our (admittedly excellent)
lithium primaries, so we're going to make our rechargeables suck so much
dong that if you're dumb enough to actually buy them the taste in your
mouth will be literally like kissing your crazy bipolar ex-girlfriend,
but without any of the good parts."

And *good* brands like Eneloop, Maha Imedion, and Tenergy Centura are
nowhere to be seen on your average store's shelves. (Notable exception:
I have seen Tenergy Centuras in C, D, and 9V - but not in AA or AAA - on
the shelf at Micro Center.)

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

I used to work for Duracell. From a business perspective given by the
executives at the time, it was a good idea for Energizer and Duracell to
jump on the rechargeables bandwagon and get some sales, but it was not a
good idea to cannibalize their own business with high capacity
rechargeables.



That must have changed because they just came out with a new line of LSD
NiMHs that are competitively priced and higher capacity than Eneloops...
if they get some positive reports from CPF I might try some. They're
also stocking at least the AAs in lots of stores, although my local
Staples is completely out (not sure if they are selling fast or just
restocking slow)

In any case, that is not an unwelcome development... but the lack of
good options in the mass market for C, D, and 9V is still frustrating.
Still waiting on the guy to get back to me the Chinese eBay adapters...

Of course, look on the bright side... 10-15 years ago this discussion
would have gone something like "I've heard that these adapters are
available in China, but I haven't a clue how to go about getting them..."

Then again on the unbuttered side, we used to be a nation of innovators
and most of the time when I say something like "gee, someone oughta make
(something)" and it turns out that it *is* made, it's generally made
halfway around the world, not here.

nate

On 8/31/2013 11:15 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 06:59:00 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:



Three Duraloops in one of these would be infinitely preferable (almost
as good as a real NiMH D cell, and possibly more convenient), *if* you
could buy the adapters in stores...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Bat...em2a2d82 c350

nate

You might call Amazon a "store."
I bought a couple of these a few years ago. Paid about the same price
as now, within a couple bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/Eneloop-Charge...rds=eneloop+aa

I have 6 each of the C and D containers laying in a tool drawer.
Think I bought a pack of extras cell and they came with containers.
I avoid C and D.
Don't even use my big D Maglites - a 3 and a 5 cell.
Have about 4 AA LED Mags. They do fine.
Here's the containers alone.
http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-Eneloop-...ref=pd_sim_e_5

The first link looks like the best deal.
But both of those chargers got destroyed when my basement flooded.
I replaced them with Sonys about a year ago.
http://tinyurl.com/lswwjaq

The Sony chargers charge each cell individually, and I haven't noticed
any difference from the Eneloops. Nothing scientific, just haven't
noticed any difference in time before recharge.

Still use the old Eneloop batteries too. A few wouldn't charge in the
Sony charger, just caused a blinking light. Tossed those.

That linked Sony is a bad deal. Mine had the same number of batteries
as the Eneloop charger pack above, and cost 30, or maybe 35.
But no containers.
After reading the reviews and seeing they were good, and in the
ballpark pricewise I just pulled the trigger. Won't spend hours and
hours to save a buck.

You'll run into bull**** on Amazon. When I replaced my original
Eneloops with Sony, the same Eneloop batt/charger/container pack I had
paid 30 bucks for was only offered by one vendor.
Price? 120 bucks. I put in a quick ripoff review. Apparently Amazon
puts no controls on outrageous prices. As always, shop around.


I've bought some Eneloops off Amazon, but found an eBay seller that is
reputable and has slightly lower prices.

My point was that there are NO distribution channels in the US for good,
3xAA to D cell adapters save for Battery Junction and they want an
extortionate $15 apiece for them.

I still have high hopes for the Chinese eBay seller that I mentioned in
a previous post, I know there are at least two guys on CPF that have
ordered from him, but one hasn't received his adapters yet and I'm
waiting for the other to let me know what he thought of them quality-wise.

nate

Wonder what they say about "precharged"
80 gallon tall water heaters?


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 8/31/2013 5:17 PM, wrote:

Amazon Prime and UPS is my best friend here.

The UPS guy must just love delivering sheets of plywood.

I've done that, on ebay items. One time I bought
a pipe wrench. With shipping, I'd have been better
off to buy a set of four from Horrid Fright.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/1/2013 2:21 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I tell my roommate to pay attention to the shipping charges. A neat item
you want may have a price of $5.00 but the shipping and handling charges
for the damn thing could be $15.00. I always pay attention to any other
costs involved with obtaining an item off any website. You
may have to fabricate the information you put in so you can get to the
checkout page to find the final cost and not windup being buried in spam
if you have no desire to pay too much for something. 10 minute mail
"http://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html" works very well for
sites that require a bit too much information to answer your questions
about the final cost of an item. O_o

TDD

On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 07:21:36 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:



My point was that there are NO distribution channels in the US for good,
3xAA to D cell adapters save for Battery Junction and they want an
extortionate $15 apiece for them.

I just gave you a link where you can get them for much less.
Didn't include it again, since you don't want to listen, just talk.
Can't see where you have a point at all, unless you want them sold
in your grocery, big box, gas station.
Ain't gonna happen.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:11:00 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 08/31/2013 04:58 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it, but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.


It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that
consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and
thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy.

Bingo!

I'm
sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not
buying throwaways, though.

Nothing at all to do with it.

How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate
brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA
cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge
for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.

No, different market dynamics.

In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute"
come to mind.

Absoutely correct. It's about time the consumer stopped relying on
someone else to run his life.

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing. Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad. Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement. Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

nate

On 9/1/2013 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:11:00 -0700, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 08/31/2013 04:58 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it, but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.


It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that
consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and
thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy.

Bingo!

I'm
sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not
buying throwaways, though.

Nothing at all to do with it.

How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate
brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA
cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge
for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.

No, different market dynamics.

Well, that's the thing, a Tenergy Centura C cell actually costs LESS
than an Energizer Recharge C cell despite the former being what you
would reasonably expect to be buying in terms of capacity, and the
latter not (and the Tenergy being a modern LSD design as well.) The
Tenergy D's cost only a little more than the Energizer Ds but the
difference in performance is even more dramatic between the two.


In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute"
come to mind.

Absoutely correct. It's about time the consumer stopped relying on
someone else to run his life.


Hey, I was able to read the package and determine that these were not
really a useful product. I figured I would let you all know because
they only print the capacity on the cells themselves, nowhere on the
packaging and it's pretty well hidden on the web site.

nate

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:13:40 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing.

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

Dangerous.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
new one?

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad.

It's a *horrible* idea.

Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Then you've admitted my point.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still ****ed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.

On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:13:40 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing.

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Why? Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between
proper and improper use. It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use
far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P
which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a
used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells
inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern
stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those,
the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted
flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can
literally "vent with flame" in your hands.

Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice,
and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with
protection circuits.

Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

Dangerous.

Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am
using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha
Imedions.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
new one?

No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime,
they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged
on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage,
current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the
ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that
are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole
new set.

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad.

It's a *horrible* idea.

Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D
"cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the
cells for charging.

Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Those people are not using them properly, then.

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Then you've admitted my point.

I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just
disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for
convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality
products in local stores.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device
that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary
cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the
Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH
D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original
performance.)

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still ****ed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.

More disgusted than ****ed. It's a major corporation basically
attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An
ethical organization would not do that.

nate

On 9/2/2013 2:14 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

some stuff, because

On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, wrote:

some other stuff

I just thought of one good argument for your position that a company
would open themselves up to personal injury lawsuits if they were to
market parallel 3xAA to D cell adapters. The special case of someone
shoving a bunch of mismatched, unprotected 14500 cells together.

However, Battery Junction does in fact commercially sell such adapters,
they're just really expensive (over $15 each) as well as 14500 cells...
and there's easier ways to mismatch Li-Ions than buying an adapter
that will allow you to parallel up a not very common size.


nate

On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 14:14:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:13:40 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing.

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Why?

Oh, fire, property damage, death. Maybe even cats and dogs living
together.

Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between
proper and improper use.

Nope. You even said that the public doesn't know what they're buying.
There is no way to prevent improper use so it is expected that someone
will use it improperly. What's more benign that HOT coffee?

It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use
far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P
which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a
used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells
inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern
stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those,
the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted
flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can
literally "vent with flame" in your hands.

What precisely is wrong with series LiIon? Two cells should be easily
controllable.

Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice,
and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with
protection circuits.

....but that's just you.

Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

Dangerous.

Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am
using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha
Imedions.

Nonsense. Anything with that energy density is a fire waiting to
happen.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
new one?

No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime,
they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged
on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage,
current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the
ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that
are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole
new set.

With an aftermarket adapter there is no guarantee of that. The person
selling the adapter has liability (sue everyone and let the court sort
it out).

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad.

It's a *horrible* idea.

Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D
"cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the
cells for charging.

Complete nonsense. There is no danger from well matched cells. After
all, that's what a bigger cell is - more of the same chemistry.

Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Those people are not using them properly, then.

Irrelevant. Coffee held between the knees in a car isn't "using it
properly", either.

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Then you've admitted my point.

I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just
disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for
convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality
products in local stores.

Why do YOU think _your_convenience_ trumps others interests?

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device
that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary
cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the
Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH
D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original
performance.)

Your choice. Good enough.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still ****ed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.

More disgusted than ****ed. It's a major corporation basically
attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An
ethical organization would not do that.

You must have a sky high BP if retail sales marketing bothers you so
much.

On 9/2/2013 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 14:14:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:13:40 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing.

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Why?

Oh, fire, property damage, death. Maybe even cats and dogs living
together.

Not with carbon-zinc, alkaline or NiMH cells, unless you set up a
scenario where an abused cell is directly exposed to a flammable
material. The cells themselves will not burn or explode.

Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between
proper and improper use.

Nope. You even said that the public doesn't know what they're buying.
There is no way to prevent improper use so it is expected that someone
will use it improperly. What's more benign that HOT coffee?

But the worst consequence of abuse, barring really spectacular
stupidity, is far more benign - merely dead cells and worst case, a
damaged device from leaking cells.

It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use
far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P
which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a
used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells
inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern
stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those,
the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted
flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can
literally "vent with flame" in your hands.

What precisely is wrong with series LiIon? Two cells should be easily
controllable.

Both lithium primaries and Li-Ion rechargeables, unlike carbon-zinc,
alkaline, or NiMH, have a non-zero probability of "venting with flame"
which is battery geek speak for "go boom."

Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice,
and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with
protection circuits.

...but that's just you.

Of course, because devices that use multiple Li-Ions exist and are
available for sale. Even the Tesla battery pack I believe is built up
from a shedload of 18650s. I hope the electronics guys at Tesla know
what they're doing!

Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

Dangerous.

Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am
using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha
Imedions.

Nonsense. Anything with that energy density is a fire waiting to
happen.

You're simply wrong; different chemistries have different risks
associated with them. NiMHs are about the safest type of cell out
there; they vent/leak a lot less often than even alkalines and "venting
with flame" is not possible.

Again, the only way you could possibly start a fire with a NiMH is to
short circuit the cell(s) and have either the cell(s) or the wire
connecting them in direct contact with flammable material. If they
short inside a handheld device like a flashlight, the body of the
flashlight will get warm until the cells are discharged. Do NOT try
that with 18650s; that would turn your flashlight into a literal pipe bomb.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
new one?

No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime,
they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged
on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage,
current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the
ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that
are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole
new set.

With an aftermarket adapter there is no guarantee of that. The person
selling the adapter has liability (sue everyone and let the court sort
it out).

And yet as I pointed out in another post, they are in fact available for
sale from a legitimate retail (OK, mail-order) channel in the US,
they're just really expensive for what they are.

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad.

It's a *horrible* idea.

Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D
"cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the
cells for charging.

Complete nonsense. There is no danger from well matched cells. After
all, that's what a bigger cell is - more of the same chemistry.

Not nonsense, and I didn't say it was a danger. You might theoretically
be able to eke out a few more cycles out of the cells if you separated
them for charging, is all.


Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Those people are not using them properly, then.

Irrelevant. Coffee held between the knees in a car isn't "using it
properly", either.

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Then you've admitted my point.

I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just
disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for
convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality
products in local stores.

Why do YOU think _your_convenience_ trumps others interests?

Because to me, it does. As I assume to you, your convenience should be
pretty high on your list of decision making criteria.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device
that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary
cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the
Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH
D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original
performance.)

Your choice. Good enough.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still ****ed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.

More disgusted than ****ed. It's a major corporation basically
attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An
ethical organization would not do that.

You must have a sky high BP if retail sales marketing bothers you so
much.

Most retail sales marketing *is* sleazy, dishonest and unpleasant.

This one goes farther than most, though - there's an implied fitness for
purpose that the product doesn't deliver.

nate