On 9/2/2013 3:00 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 14:14:02 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:13:40 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:58:04 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 8/31/2013 2:48 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Saw these in Target as I hit the fourth and last store in my area trying
to score some cheap Duraloops.

http://www.energizer.com/batteries/r...s/Pages/d.aspx

Seriously? a 2500 mAh NiMH D cell? So you want me to pay the same price
for a 2-pack of fake ass D cells as I would for a GOOD pack of 4 AAs
that each have almost the same capacity? Are you HIGH?

That's certainly not new. GE and RadioShaft NiCd 'D' cells were their
C's in drag. I don't think the 4AAs would fit your D-size appliance,
though.

3xAAs definitely will fit in place of *one* D cell, 4xAAs might
depending.

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel
is not recommended. It won't fit.

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but
Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says
not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their
Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and
D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside
a larger casing.

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the
batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot
and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in
the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that
the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a
dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Why?

Oh, fire, property damage, death. Maybe even cats and dogs living
together.

Not with carbon-zinc, alkaline or NiMH cells, unless you set up a
scenario where an abused cell is directly exposed to a flammable
material. The cells themselves will not burn or explode.

Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between
proper and improper use.

Nope. You even said that the public doesn't know what they're buying.
There is no way to prevent improper use so it is expected that someone
will use it improperly. What's more benign that HOT coffee?

But the worst consequence of abuse, barring really spectacular
stupidity, is far more benign - merely dead cells and worst case, a
damaged device from leaking cells.

It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use
far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P
which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a
used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells
inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern
stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those,
the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted
flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can
literally "vent with flame" in your hands.

What precisely is wrong with series LiIon? Two cells should be easily
controllable.

Both lithium primaries and Li-Ion rechargeables, unlike carbon-zinc,
alkaline, or NiMH, have a non-zero probability of "venting with flame"
which is battery geek speak for "go boom."

Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple
18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice,
and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with
protection circuits.

...but that's just you.

Of course, because devices that use multiple Li-Ions exist and are
available for sale. Even the Tesla battery pack I believe is built up
from a shedload of 18650s. I hope the electronics guys at Tesla know
what they're doing!

Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs
in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that
inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is
4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right
places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and
using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs
inserted in each adapter.

Dangerous.

Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am
using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha
Imedions.

Nonsense. Anything with that energy density is a fire waiting to
happen.

You're simply wrong; different chemistries have different risks
associated with them. NiMHs are about the safest type of cell out
there; they vent/leak a lot less often than even alkalines and "venting
with flame" is not possible.

Again, the only way you could possibly start a fire with a NiMH is to
short circuit the cell(s) and have either the cell(s) or the wire
connecting them in direct contact with flammable material. If they
short inside a handheld device like a flashlight, the body of the
flashlight will get warm until the cells are discharged. Do NOT try
that with 18650s; that would turn your flashlight into a literal pipe bomb.

From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles
on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of
the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial
discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very
consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe
to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same
production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept
together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent
channels to prolong life.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a
new one?

No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime,
they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged
on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage,
current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the
ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that
are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole
new set.

With an aftermarket adapter there is no guarantee of that. The person
selling the adapter has liability (sue everyone and let the court sort
it out).

And yet as I pointed out in another post, they are in fact available for
sale from a legitimate retail (OK, mail-order) channel in the US,
they're just really expensive for what they are.

I've seen adapters for both, I'm not aware of any 4xAA
adapters currently on the market but I got a tip off CPF of some 3xAA
adapters from a Chinese eBay seller that look promising. I might
actually buy some of them... apparently someone already did, I'm just
waiting for him to post what he thought of them quality-wise. Same
seller sells similar looking 4xAAA to C adapters also. eBay seller is
world_electric_fan, like I said I can't give a personal thumbs up yet
since I'm waiting for a forum reply before I purchase any myself.

NOT a good idea.

snip

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad.

It's a *horrible* idea.

Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D
"cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the
cells for charging.

Complete nonsense. There is no danger from well matched cells. After
all, that's what a bigger cell is - more of the same chemistry.

Not nonsense, and I didn't say it was a danger. You might theoretically
be able to eke out a few more cycles out of the cells if you separated
them for charging, is all.


Yes, if you mix and match
primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea,
but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight
loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you
have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing
your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really
need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as
well.)

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Those people are not using them properly, then.

Irrelevant. Coffee held between the knees in a car isn't "using it
properly", either.

Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

I do! But it would be nice to be able to have the option of picking up
an acceptable product in local stores... I actually believe in
supporting local businesses, but they make it so hard.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk,
online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to
you?


I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better
quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally),
except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops
were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

Then you've admitted my point.

I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just
disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for
convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality
products in local stores.

Why do YOU think _your_convenience_ trumps others interests?

Because to me, it does. As I assume to you, your convenience should be
pretty high on your list of decision making criteria.

Am I alone in being insulted by this?

Probably. If you're that ****ed off by common marketing, you must
have a very high-stress life.

Not really, I mean, I'm already over it,

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

but it really does show how
little the marketing department of your average large corporation thinks
of the intelligence of the average consumer.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable
product?

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device
that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary
cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the
Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH
D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original
performance.)

Your choice. Good enough.

It wouldn't have been a big deal save for the fact that we all know that
C and D size NiMHs are pretty rare, I saw them on the rack and was
immediately drawn to them out of curiosity, then I read the package and
was just depressed and disgusted...

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago.
You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want,
though.

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect
statement.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking
they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either
didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to
a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I
would...

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still ****ed?
Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.

More disgusted than ****ed. It's a major corporation basically
attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An
ethical organization would not do that.

You must have a sky high BP if retail sales marketing bothers you so
much.

Most retail sales marketing *is* sleazy, dishonest and unpleasant.

This one goes farther than most, though - there's an implied fitness for
purpose that the product doesn't deliver.

nate