I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. It is working
perfectly. I know door gasket is not as good at it could be, however,
it seems to close pretty tight. It can be real hard to open a 2nd time
after looking for something. But I know there are a lot of square feet
which are acted upon by a very small vacuum. Also, if the unit is not
running, like after a defrost, the magnets in the door gasket are pretty
weak. Anyway, to the question. In your opinions, would it be
advantageous to replace it for a new more efficient unit? How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

I'd be tempted to use an ammeter, to see what the running current is. That
could give you some "hard data" to go on. I do know that old compressors use
more power, as they grow older.

Anecdotal evidence. I got a newer fridge, the old one was here when I moved
in, late 1994. My electric bill dropped about ten bucks a month.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. It is working
perfectly. I know door gasket is not as good at it could be, however,
it seems to close pretty tight. It can be real hard to open a 2nd time
after looking for something. But I know there are a lot of square feet
which are acted upon by a very small vacuum. Also, if the unit is not
running, like after a defrost, the magnets in the door gasket are pretty
weak. Anyway, to the question. In your opinions, would it be
advantageous to replace it for a new more efficient unit? How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

Art Todesco wrote:

I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. It is working
perfectly.

In your opinions, would it be advantageous to replace it for a new
more efficient unit? How long do you think it would take it to
pay off?

Your answers can be found he

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricit...igerators.html

It helps to know how the size (in sq.ft.) you have.

A chest-style freezer is more efficient vs an upright style.

And yes, your 38-year-old freezer will be an energy hog compared to a
new unit. You'd probably see a payoff in 5 years for a new chest-style
unit of equivalent size.

On Apr 10, 8:49*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'd be tempted to use an ammeter, to see what the running current is. That
could give you some "hard data" to go on. I do know that old compressors use
more power, as they grow older.

Anecdotal evidence. I got a newer fridge, the old one was here when I moved
in, late 1994. My electric bill dropped about ten bucks a month.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message

...
I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. *It is working
perfectly. *I know door gasket is not as good at it could be, however,
it seems to close pretty tight. *It can be real hard to open a 2nd time
after looking for something. *But I know there are a lot of square feet
which are acted upon by a very small vacuum. *Also, if the unit is not
running, like after a defrost, the magnets in the door gasket are pretty
weak. *Anyway, to the question. *In your opinions, would it be
advantageous to replace it for a new more efficient unit? *How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? *BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. *It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

As I reported previously, I replaced a 27 year old
fridge a year ago. Prior to doing that, I used a killawatt
meter for a few days on it. It was using $180 a year
in electricity. I measured the new one after it stabilized.
It uses $95. The EPA calculator that estimates savings
had predicted the old one was using more like $275.
So, my conclusions we

You can save a decent amount on energy that will
help pay for a new fridge/freezer, but the payback
period can still be long.

The EPA calculator in my case significantly overestimated
the amount my old fridge was using, but it was spot on
about how much the new one used.

You may want to buy a killawatt meter which can be had
for $25. It's usefull anytime you want to know how much
electricity something is using. You can even put in your
cost of electricity per kwh and it will then display the
usage of whatever you plug into it in terms of $$$ per
day, week, month, year, etc.

On 2012-04-10, Art Todesco wrote:

years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

I wouldn't trust energy stats, specially those provided by
manufacturers. Ask your energy company for a real world cost
break-down. Also, yer current freezer has lasted for 38 yrs. I, too,
had a 30+ yr old refrigerator and 25+ yr old wshr/dryr set. They made
'em to last, didn't they!

Will you actually save money by purchasing new? My mom's last new
refrigerator lasted only 5 yrs before dying an unrepairable death.
That's jes about the time she would have started realizing some cost
savings, but then had to buy a new one. Her current one, about 5 yrs
old, jes blew a fan motor. Repairs cost over $200. Of her two chest
freezers, both less than 10 yrs old, one jes died. The other got
eaten by a bear (no kidding!).

Me? I'd stick with something that works.

me

--
vi --the heart of evil!

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...

How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

Hard to know without specifics like cost of new freezer, electricity, usage,
etc.

Everything Trader said was accurate. The Kill-A-Watt meter readings in my
case were even more dramatic because the insulation in my unit had absorbed
moisture over time and the seals had been repaired several times but never
as well as new.

As the unit aged (and presumably was leaking small amounts of refrigerant
from an over-zealous defrost with a sharp tool), the current draw increased
substantially. The new unit, albeit slight smaller and with less freezer
space but more refrigerator space than the old unit, has so far used less
than half the juice of the 30+ year old White-Westinghouse it replaced. The
same gains were had replacing one 12,000 BTU Fedders window AC with two
smaller 5 and 8K BTU units of recent vintage. The new ones use some tricks
to gain efficiency like spraying condensate onto the plastic fan blades to
increase cooling efficiency. Makes it cheaper to run, but noisier to
operate. Ironically, the cost of electricity has risen so much in DC in the
last 5 years that it's only kept my bill at the same amount. Without the
new gear, it would really have soared.

As for the Kill-a-Watt,

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009MDBU

Under $20. Every home should have at least one. I've got a few and even
buy them for friends when they complain about their electric bills. It
enables you to determine what devices should be unplugged or put on a
switchable outlet strip because they consume large amounts of standby power.
(Lots of them!)

Only fault of the cheaper units (they make a number of models) is that if
the power blinks, the accumulated readings (the only way to REALLY measure
consumption) are lost. For devices like a refrigerator, it pays to note the
readings every couple of days and jot them down so you don't lose a few
months worth with one blink. I haven't run one off a UPS yet (wouldn't have
worked for the fridge) but I think I'll put that on what my wife calls "The
Science Project" list. (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 06:13:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 10, 8:49*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I'd be tempted to use an ammeter, to see what the running current is. That
could give you some "hard data" to go on. I do know that old compressors use
more power, as they grow older.

Anecdotal evidence. I got a newer fridge, the old one was here when I moved
in, late 1994. My electric bill dropped about ten bucks a month.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message

...
I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. *It is working
perfectly. *I know door gasket is not as good at it could be, however,
it seems to close pretty tight. *It can be real hard to open a 2nd time
after looking for something. *But I know there are a lot of square feet
which are acted upon by a very small vacuum. *Also, if the unit is not
running, like after a defrost, the magnets in the door gasket are pretty
weak. *Anyway, to the question. *In your opinions, would it be
advantageous to replace it for a new more efficient unit? *How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? *BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. *It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

As I reported previously, I replaced a 27 year old
fridge a year ago. Prior to doing that, I used a killawatt
meter for a few days on it. It was using $180 a year
in electricity. I measured the new one after it stabilized.
It uses $95. The EPA calculator that estimates savings
had predicted the old one was using more like $275.
So, my conclusions we

You can save a decent amount on energy that will
help pay for a new fridge/freezer, but the payback
period can still be long.

The EPA calculator in my case significantly overestimated
the amount my old fridge was using, but it was spot on
about how much the new one used.

You may want to buy a killawatt meter which can be had
for $25. It's usefull anytime you want to know how much
electricity something is using. You can even put in your
cost of electricity per kwh and it will then display the
usage of whatever you plug into it in terms of $$$ per
day, week, month, year, etc.


Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

"notbob" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Will you actually save money by purchasing new? My mom's last new
refrigerator lasted only 5 yrs before dying an unrepairable death.
That's jes about the time she would have started realizing some cost
savings, but then had to buy a new one. Her current one, about 5 yrs
old, jes blew a fan motor. Repairs cost over $200. Of her two chest
freezers, both less than 10 yrs old, one jes died. The other got
eaten by a bear (no kidding!).

Thanks for reminding me. A lot of people have said their new units have
needed replacement or repairs very early on in their life cycle. That, of
course, could alter the payback stats. The old A/C ran, uncovered in the
window all year long, for 17 years. The fridge for over 30. I suspect
their replacements, with the use of far more plastic parts, won't last
nearly as long.

It's a lot easier to make the decision to replace when the old ones fail. A
lot of the efficiency of new units comes from better insulation. I'd get a
Kil-a-watt and see if insulating the outside of the freezer saved any money.
It took 22 years for my Honda to reach the "can't repair it anymore" point.

--
Bobby G.

"Doug" wrote in message

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current. Or a special cord that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. Most pocket meters can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. Look on your meter, if it reads amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks. That's why the Kill-a-watt is so
useful. None of that is required. Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. The more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.

--
Bobby G.

On 10 Apr 2012 14:10:06 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2012-04-10, Art Todesco wrote:

years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.

I wouldn't trust energy stats, specially those provided by
manufacturers. Ask your energy company for a real world cost
break-down. Also, yer current freezer has lasted for 38 yrs. I, too,
had a 30+ yr old refrigerator and 25+ yr old wshr/dryr set. They made
'em to last, didn't they!

Will you actually save money by purchasing new? My mom's last new
refrigerator lasted only 5 yrs before dying an unrepairable death.
That's jes about the time she would have started realizing some cost
savings, but then had to buy a new one. Her current one, about 5 yrs
old, jes blew a fan motor. Repairs cost over $200. Of her two chest
freezers, both less than 10 yrs old, one jes died. The other got
eaten by a bear (no kidding!).

Me? I'd stick with something that works.

me


My thoughts too. As you pointed out, the true cost of operation is
more than just the electrical useage. Personally I think I'd run the
38 year old freezer till it needed a repair and then consider saving
what that repair costs and putting it toward the new unit. That's
not to say the new unit will last as long but repairing (assuming the
parts are still available) a 38 year old unit may be a first sign of
more to come.

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

Very seriously, please try to find someone in your life who is experienced
with electricty. You already should know that electricity is dangerous, and
house power can kill you. Or kill someone else. Have that other person show
you some of the simple measurements. To answer your question, no, you can't
measure amps with two volt meters.

That said.....

To measure amps, you need a device like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-o...ter-95683.html
The big open end clamp is clamped around ONE of the power wires, not both.
If you clamp the AC line cord, you get a reading of zero, as there is both a
hot and neutral. You need to separate out the wires, and clamp either the
hot, or the neutral.

Measure the voltage (volts scale, read at the power socket).

Volts times amps (multiply the two numbers) equals watts.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Doug" wrote in message
...

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

It's a deliberate process. The manufacturer examines parts on machines
returned for servuce that have lasted longer than the warranty and decide
which ones were stronger than they needed to be. Then they weaken them.
(-:

Two examples come to mind. The first Compaqs were indestructible, using
gold-plated connectors rated at 10's of thousands of insertions along the
unit's I/O backplane. They almost never failed. Over the years, they
reduced the spec of that part until they started to see *some* consumer
complaints. That's when they decided to stop reducing the part's quality.

Toyota used to paint the inside of their bumpers until cost experts said
that customers would almost never see the paint and so they stopped doing
it.

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. It's so much nicer when they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:24:02 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current. Or a special cord that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. Most pocket meters can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. Look on your meter, if it reads amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks. That's why the Kill-a-watt is so
useful. None of that is required. Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. The more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.



I should have said multimeter not voltmeter... my mistake.
Specifically can the Fluke 117 do it using it's amp meter?


I know some are wondering how is a Fluke 117 in my hands with my lack
of knowledge but let's just say that the price was too good to not buy
.... and no I didn't steal it, got it on ebay new.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:37:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Very seriously, please try to find someone in your life who is experienced
with electricty. You already should know that electricity is dangerous, and
house power can kill you. Or kill someone else. Have that other person show
you some of the simple measurements. To answer your question, no, you can't
measure amps with two volt meters.



You're right but I like to learn and I'm not afraid of dying.

" writes:

As I reported previously, I replaced a 27 year old
fridge a year ago. Prior to doing that, I used a killawatt
meter for a few days on it. It was using $180 a year
in electricity. I measured the new one after it stabilized.
It uses $95. The EPA calculator that estimates savings
had predicted the old one was using more like $275.
So, my conclusions we

You can save a decent amount on energy that will
help pay for a new fridge/freezer,

Crap. Our freezer is getting close to 40 years old.
I was hoping to never buy another one.

but the payback
period can still be long.

Oh, okay...

--
Dan Espen

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Digi....htm?PID=55996
From what I can tell here, this meter will measure AC amps up to 10 amps
scale. I've got a similar meter, I've used the AC amps scale for reading
HVAC thermostat and gas valve. Refrigerator is typically about 5 amps, at
least the new ones.

If it were me, I'd not risk a good Fluke meter on an old freezer. I'd go buy
a HF ammeter, less likely to break your good Fluke.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Doug" wrote in message
...

I should have said multimeter not voltmeter... my mistake.
Specifically can the Fluke 117 do it using it's amp meter?


I know some are wondering how is a Fluke 117 in my hands with my lack
of knowledge but let's just say that the price was too good to not buy
.... and no I didn't steal it, got it on ebay new.

In that case, this should be a terrific learning experience.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Doug" wrote in message
...

You're right but I like to learn and I'm not afraid of dying.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:59:19 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

" writes:

As I reported previously, I replaced a 27 year old
fridge a year ago. Prior to doing that, I used a killawatt
meter for a few days on it. It was using $180 a year
in electricity. I measured the new one after it stabilized.
It uses $95. The EPA calculator that estimates savings
had predicted the old one was using more like $275.
So, my conclusions we

You can save a decent amount on energy that will
help pay for a new fridge/freezer,

Crap. Our freezer is getting close to 40 years old.
I was hoping to never buy another one.



Well if you are old enough, you might get your wish !!!

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:42:20 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

It's a deliberate process. The manufacturer examines parts on machines
returned for servuce that have lasted longer than the warranty and decide
which ones were stronger than they needed to be. Then they weaken them.
(-:

Two examples come to mind. The first Compaqs were indestructible, using
gold-plated connectors rated at 10's of thousands of insertions along the
unit's I/O backplane. They almost never failed. Over the years, they
reduced the spec of that part until they started to see *some* consumer
complaints. That's when they decided to stop reducing the part's quality.

Toyota used to paint the inside of their bumpers until cost experts said
that customers would almost never see the paint and so they stopped doing
it.

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. It's so much nicer when they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.


Agreed. I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead. Besides I still have 2 daughters that
regardless of age, don't mind asking me for money or favors.

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot
from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current. Or a special cord
that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. Most pocket meters
can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. Look on your meter, if it reads
amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks. That's why the Kill-a-watt is
so
useful. None of that is required. Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. The
more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.



I should have said multimeter not voltmeter... my mistake.
Specifically can the Fluke 117 do it using it's amp meter?

First, if you're determined (and it will take making up a special line cord
to accomplish), read the MAX AMPS listing on your Fluke. That will tell you
if it can handle current drawn by the unit. You can probably get away with
measuring fridge if there's a slow-blow fuse on the meter, but it's
dangerous to do unless you feel comfortable with wiring up a special outlet
(which I did) to allow you to measure an appliance's amperage. You have to
read the current draw in series, not in parallel like a voltmeter. Unless
you are using a tong meter (clamp on induction measuring device) the meter
needs to become part of the entire circuit.

I know some are wondering how is a Fluke 117 in my hands with my lack
of knowledge but let's just say that the price was too good to not buy
... and no I didn't steal it, got it on ebay new.

It's a fine meter, but not so much for this job. An instantaneous reading
of the current, which is all your Fluke is likely able to do, won't tell you
much about weekly costs to run. That's because a fridge uses differing
amounts of energy during its operational cycles.

Break down and buy the Kill-a-watt. No special cords, no electrocution
hazard and the ability to log readings over long periods of time to average
out fluctuations. Even my meter that hooks into an RS232 port of a PC to
allow logging readings can't tell you what a Kill-a-Watt can. It's the
right tool for the job and it will have uses far beyond the current one.

--
Bobby G.

On 2012-04-10, Doug wrote:

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

Three things have rendered reliability out: planned obsolescence,
bottom-line cheapness, disposability. It jes doesn't pay to make a
long lasting quality product or repair products than be purchased new
for less. No incentive for the user to purchase a new one. Seen any
TV/radio repair shops, lately?

--
vi --the heart of evil!

"Doug" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:37:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Very seriously, please try to find someone in your life who is
experienced
with electricty. You already should know that electricity is dangerous,
and
house power can kill you. Or kill someone else. Have that other person
show
you some of the simple measurements. To answer your question, no, you
can't
measure amps with two volt meters.



You're right but I like to learn and I'm not afraid of dying.

That's the pioneer spirit that made this country great! (-:

Seriously, though, the Kill-a-watt is exactly the right tool for this job.
Once you've used one, you'll see.

BTW, I long ago made up a test outlet box with isolated hot and neutral
wires and banana jacks on the side of the outlet box with a bypass switch
that allowed me to use either a clamp-on ammeter or a multimeter "direct
wire" connection. I never use it anymore since I got the Kill-a-watt.

--
Bobby G.

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. It's so much nicer when
they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.


Agreed. I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead. Besides I still have 2 daughters that
regardless of age, don't mind asking me for money or favors.

I nursed an RCA color TV for 25 years until adjustments could no longer
correct the ever-enlarging image and the ever decreasing color saturation.
It was still working when I curbed it. The difference between old CRT TV's
and equal sized LCD/LED units is pretty impressive. So is the picture.

--
Bobby G.

"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2012-04-10, Doug wrote:

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

Three things have rendered reliability out: planned obsolescence,
bottom-line cheapness, disposability. It jes doesn't pay to make a
long lasting quality product or repair products than be purchased new
for less. No incentive for the user to purchase a new one. Seen any
TV/radio repair shops, lately?

On the flip side, I was always amazed how easily PC's could be repaired - at
least in the beginning. No video? Swap out a board! It's all a trade off.
I agree with you. People won't pay what it's worth in time to have
something diagnosed and repaired when that cost is perhaps half to
three-quarters the price of a newer (and often better) model. I gave up
fixing PC's for friends for that reason. They're grateful right after you
restore megabytes of precious data - but not for very long after that. )-:
Sort of "I know you saved my life last week, but what have you done for me
lately?"

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote:
"Doug" wrote in message

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current. Or a special cord that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. Most pocket meters can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. Look on your meter, if it reads amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks. That's why the Kill-a-watt is so
useful. None of that is required. Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. The more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.

--
Bobby G.

A kill a watt measures power factor to get the true watts. Unless you
measure the volts and amps with an oscilloscope and do the calculations, an
amp meter is useless. An interesting fact, my old fridge has .59 pf where
my newer one is close to 1. The kill a watt also calculates total on time
for the kwh.

Nothing was mentioned of size of freezer. You can buy a moderate sized one
cheap, and I would recommend the chest.

Greg

On Apr 10, 12:43*pm, "Doug" wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:42:20 -0400, "Robert Green" wrote:
it.

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. *It's so much nicer when they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.

Agreed. *I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow * * * * Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. * I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead.

Did you buy LCD or Plasma? LCDs use about the same amount of power or
slightly more for same size screen.

I had a 45" Mitsubishi RPTV that lasted me for 12 years that I
replaced 2 years ago with a 50" Panasonic Plasma. The Panny uses 400
watts, as compared to the Mits that used 210 watts.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:06:14 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:37:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Very seriously, please try to find someone in your life who is
experienced
with electricty. You already should know that electricity is dangerous,
and
house power can kill you. Or kill someone else. Have that other person
show
you some of the simple measurements. To answer your question, no, you
can't
measure amps with two volt meters.



You're right but I like to learn and I'm not afraid of dying.

That's the pioneer spirit that made this country great! (-:

Seriously, though, the Kill-a-watt is exactly the right tool for this job.
Once you've used one, you'll see.

BTW, I long ago made up a test outlet box with isolated hot and neutral
wires and banana jacks on the side of the outlet box with a bypass switch
that allowed me to use either a clamp-on ammeter or a multimeter "direct
wire" connection. I never use it anymore since I got the Kill-a-watt.



Thanks for the info Bobby. I'll look into it.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:02:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot
from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current. Or a special cord
that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. Most pocket meters
can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. Look on your meter, if it reads
amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks. That's why the Kill-a-watt is
so
useful. None of that is required. Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. The
more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.



I should have said multimeter not voltmeter... my mistake.
Specifically can the Fluke 117 do it using it's amp meter?

First, if you're determined (and it will take making up a special line cord
to accomplish), read the MAX AMPS listing on your Fluke. That will tell you
if it can handle current drawn by the unit. You can probably get away with
measuring fridge if there's a slow-blow fuse on the meter, but it's
dangerous to do unless you feel comfortable with wiring up a special outlet
(which I did) to allow you to measure an appliance's amperage. You have to
read the current draw in series, not in parallel like a voltmeter. Unless
you are using a tong meter (clamp on induction measuring device) the meter
needs to become part of the entire circuit.

I know some are wondering how is a Fluke 117 in my hands with my lack
of knowledge but let's just say that the price was too good to not buy
... and no I didn't steal it, got it on ebay new.

It's a fine meter, but not so much for this job. An instantaneous reading
of the current, which is all your Fluke is likely able to do, won't tell you
much about weekly costs to run. That's because a fridge uses differing
amounts of energy during its operational cycles.

Break down and buy the Kill-a-watt. No special cords, no electrocution
hazard and the ability to log readings over long periods of time to average
out fluctuations. Even my meter that hooks into an RS232 port of a PC to
allow logging readings can't tell you what a Kill-a-Watt can. It's the
right tool for the job and it will have uses far beyond the current one.


Will do and thank you !!!

On 10 Apr 2012 17:02:49 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2012-04-10, Doug wrote:

On a side note, things that I was once told were to last so many
years, more recently I'm told those same things last perhaps half (or
less) as long nowadays.... ie: washing machines, hot water heaters,
refrigs come to mind. That's sad in my opinion.

Three things have rendered reliability out: planned obsolescence,
bottom-line cheapness, disposability. It jes doesn't pay to make a
long lasting quality product or repair products than be purchased new
for less. No incentive for the user to purchase a new one. Seen any
TV/radio repair shops, lately?


Actually yes, one or two but I have no idea how much longer they'll
stay in business. Maybe they sell the old repaired units to make a
living???? I was willing to give my old heavy Sony away for free but
they would have to drive 5 miles to get it and they said no thanks. It
ended up in the garbage truck... kinda sad to see that but I wasn't
willing to pay to have it fixed (assuming it was fixable).

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:35:36 -0700 (PDT), Ron
wrote:

On Apr 10, 12:43*pm, "Doug" wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:42:20 -0400, "Robert Green" wrote:
it.

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. *It's so much nicer when they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.

Agreed. *I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow * * * * Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. * I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead.

Did you buy LCD or Plasma? LCDs use about the same amount of power or
slightly more for same size screen.

I had a 45" Mitsubishi RPTV that lasted me for 12 years that I
replaced 2 years ago with a 50" Panasonic Plasma. The Panny uses 400
watts, as compared to the Mits that used 210 watts.


Samsung model LN40D630 which I believe is a LCD. It had a sticker
that based on its assumptions claimed to use about $20/yr electricity.
I don't really know the real cost yet till I get the recommended
equipment to measure it's real draw.

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:17:44 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. It's so much nicer when
they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.


Agreed. I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead. Besides I still have 2 daughters that
regardless of age, don't mind asking me for money or favors.

I nursed an RCA color TV for 25 years until adjustments could no longer
correct the ever-enlarging image and the ever decreasing color saturation.
It was still working when I curbed it. The difference between old CRT TV's
and equal sized LCD/LED units is pretty impressive. So is the picture.


I agree. If you have HD programming, it even gets better on the same
LCD/LED tv.

Robert Green wrote:

The Kill-A-Watt meter readings in my case were ...

For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those consumer-grade
"kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw them. They won't be
measuring the actual power being used the same way that your utility
power meter does.

For electric baseboard heaters, incandescent lights, toasters, electric
stoves, kettles, boilers, electric hot-water heaters - the kill-o-watt
meter will work ok.

For inductive loads like compressors (fridge, air conditioner, furnace
fan) and especially anything with a switching power supply like your
desktop computer, TV, CFL or any other fluorescent lights - forget it.

Home Guy wrote:
Robert Green wrote:

The Kill-A-Watt meter readings in my case were ...

For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those consumer-grade
"kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw them. They won't be
measuring the actual power being used the same way that your utility
power meter does.

For electric baseboard heaters, incandescent lights, toasters, electric
stoves, kettles, boilers, electric hot-water heaters - the kill-o-watt
meter will work ok.

For inductive loads like compressors (fridge, air conditioner, furnace
fan) and especially anything with a switching power supply like your
desktop computer, TV, CFL or any other fluorescent lights - forget it.

Wrong, it computes actual power. PF.

Greg

On Apr 10, 11:24*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Doug" wrote in message
Can I use a voltmeter with probes to measure what the refrig uses? Do
I just measure the 2 sides of the refrig's electrical plug? *Or how do
you do this measurement?

No. *You need a "tong" meter and a special cord that isolates the hot from
the neutral to measure only instantaneous current.

It's a damn good thing the hot is seperated from the
neutral. If they were connected you'd have a short.
As to measuring only the instantaneous current, why
would you want to do that? To figure out the
electricity cost of the refrigerator you need to measure
it over a reasonable period, ie a few days. That
way you'll see defrost cycles, start-ups, etc. And the obvious
problem with any current measurement using an
amp meter is that it doesn't take into account power factor.


*Or a special cord that
lets you put an ammeter in series with the unit. *Most pocket meters can't
handle that sort of current, anyway. *Look on your meter, if it reads amps,
it should say 10 or 20A max on the jacks.
*That's why the Kill-a-watt is so
useful. *None of that is required. *Plus, even the cheapest ones can read
power use over time in kWh which no common multimeter I know does. *The more
expensive units have memories and cost computers built in, but unless you
have lots of power blinks or outages, that's overkill, IMHO.

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 10, 6:46*pm, Home Guy wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
The Kill-A-Watt meter readings in my case were ...

For inductive loads like motors, I wouldn't trust those consumer-grade
"kill-o-watt" meters any further than I could throw them. *They won't be
measuring the actual power being used the same way that your utility
power meter does.


And you know this how?


For electric baseboard heaters, incandescent lights, toasters, electric
stoves, kettles, boilers, electric hot-water heaters - the kill-o-watt
meter will work ok.

For inductive loads like compressors (fridge, air conditioner, furnace
fan) and especially anything with a switching power supply like your
desktop computer, TV, CFL or any other fluorescent lights - forget it.

And you know this how?

Ron wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:43 pm, "Doug" wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:42:20 -0400, "Robert Green" wrote:
it.

Still, if you're thrifty, it's hard to trash something that hasn't failed
for a gradual payback on your electric bill. It's so much nicer when they
cooperate by dying a quick, expensive to repair, death.

Agreed. I couldn't see myself buying a big screen tv but the death of
my old large heavy Sony made it a bit easy to swallow Of
course I like the new tv much better but honestly if the old one was
still working, I'd probably still be using it. I'm cheap but like to
say practical instead.

Did you buy LCD or Plasma? LCDs use about the same amount of power or
slightly more for same size screen.

I had a 45" Mitsubishi RPTV that lasted me for 12 years that I
replaced 2 years ago with a 50" Panasonic Plasma. The Panny uses 400
watts, as compared to the Mits that used 210 watts.

I can feel the energy they take when I walk by them in the store, or just
put your hand on top. Led types run the coolest.

Greg

gregz wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:43 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:42:20 -0400, "Robert Green" wrote:
it.



Did you buy LCD or Plasma? LCDs use about the same amount of power or
slightly more for same size screen.
Hi,
I think LCD uses lot less power than Plasma. We have 62 in. Panny Plasma
for better pictures, specially black is real black. Plasma
panel generates quite a bit of heat. They have built-in fans for that.
Hope my next set will be organic LED panel.

Doug wrote:


My thoughts too. As you pointed out, the true cost of operation is
more than just the electrical useage. Personally I think I'd run the
38 year old freezer till it needed a repair and then consider saving
what that repair costs and putting it toward the new unit. That's
not to say the new unit will last as long but repairing (assuming the
parts are still available) a 38 year old unit may be a first sign of
more to come.

You may stand a better chance of getting a part for a 38-year old freezer
than for a five-year old one!

The older freezer has fewer parts, none of which are expensive circuit
boards.

On 4/10/2012 8:31 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
I have an approximately 38 year old upright freezer. It is working
perfectly. I know door gasket is not as good at it could be, however, it
seems to close pretty tight. It can be real hard to open a 2nd time
after looking for something. But I know there are a lot of square feet
which are acted upon by a very small vacuum. Also, if the unit is not
running, like after a defrost, the magnets in the door gasket are pretty
weak. Anyway, to the question. In your opinions, would it be
advantageous to replace it for a new more efficient unit? How long do
you think it would take it to pay off? BTW, this freezer has survived
being powered off for 4 months and moved 700 miles, approximately 3
years ago. It is a little noisy, but it's been that way for 38 year,
except now it is in a place were I can hear it more.
Thanks to all who answered. I forgot that the Kill-a-Watt meter, which
I have, did cumulative watt-hours and it also give the number of hours
that the data was collected. So, I put it on yesterday afternoon.
After 17 hours, it was about 2KWH. We pay 11 cents per KWH. I'll keep
you all posted on the final results.

"Doug" wrote in message

stuff snipped

I nursed an RCA color TV for 25 years until adjustments could no longer
correct the ever-enlarging image and the ever decreasing color
saturation.
It was still working when I curbed it. The difference between old CRT
TV's
and equal sized LCD/LED units is pretty impressive. So is the picture.


I agree. If you have HD programming, it even gets better on the same
LCD/LED tv.

Two exceptions. I now see how many actors/actresses have bad skin, teeth
and plastic surgery scars. When watching wildlife videos reveals how even
the most powerful of the beasts are plagued with insects. It's distracting
to watch all the little black dots crawling around on their heads that I
never noticed before.

--
Bobby G.